Re: Re: Doc won't mix T and HCG

[Guest guest]

CH,

Most men starting on Gels Testim or Androgel at the low 5 gram dose find they

feel great the first 2 weeks. Read this about gels.

==================================================

Starting on Androgel or Testim.

Yes this happens a lot you start on a low starting dose 5 grams when your brain

sees the testosterone in your blood even just a little it slows down even stops

sending the LH and FSH message to your testis to make the Testosterone you were

making. So lets say your labs for Total T were 350 you add this dose of gel

your brain sees this and you lose the base level you had before the gel.

Now lets say you need more then 5 grams most do so now all your left with is

what the gel is doing so lets say it's doing 200 so you lost 150.

The reason you feel good is your levels go up that 200 the gel is doing in the

first 2 weeks so your levels go up to 550 in theory. The brain sees this and

you fall back.

Why can this happen it might be how your putting on the gel with Androgel you

need to spread it over your upper arms and shoulders and down your back as far

as you can reach this is half of your dose then do the other side. Just spread

it over the area but don't rub it in.

The other thing is it's not getting through your skin good so you need more. If

you have a thyroid problem your skin will become thicker and gels and creams

don't get through the skin and you need to switch to shots.

I tell men when they go on Gels to retest in 2 weeks because you can end up

feeling worse. Most men just need more gel. Dr.'s that tell men to go on 5

grams of gel and come back in 8 to 12 weeks for labs don't know much about the

use of gels. Dr.'s that treat a lot of men for low T on gels see this happen

and test them again in 2 weeks.

When you go to do labs get up and shower that morning go do your labs and then

put in the gel after your blood test so you don’t spike up your labs. If you

can’t do labs in the morning shower put on the gel but don’t get any gel on

the spot they take the blood from. Do your labs about 6 hrs later.

Call your Dr. and tell him this and that your not feeling good you were but fell

back.

---------------------------------------------------

I don't remember if you posted how many mgs in pellets your Dr. gave you if they

are less then 1500mgs they will not last your 30 days let alone 3 months. Most

Dr. I have talked about doing them will only give me 800 mg for a cost of over

$1000 counting first time seeing them and there labs.

When you labs come in post them most men don't have Estradiol problems on

pellets.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: cylonhippy <cylonhippy@...>

> Subject: Re: Doc won't mix T and HCG

>

> Date: Saturday, November 27, 2010, 8:52 PM

> Thank you, Phil, , and

> Sharkbyte.

>

> I will continue the discussion with my doc, while trying

> not to challenge him too much.  Perhaps I'll mention

> the Dr. forum post.  I think the argument that HCG

> is good for numerous hormonal pathways is a good one. 

>

>

> For backup, I might want to look for another doc in my area

> (Boston, MA).  Does anyone know of a good TRT doc

> around these parts?

>

> Meanwhile, the shrinkage has really progressed. 

>

> Personally, I felt my best in the 2 weeks after first

> starting TRT.  I was using Testim gel at 1 tube per

> day.  Since receiving the pellets, my subjective

> feelings of energy and libido have not been as great. 

> I don't know whether my levels are too low or I'm converting

> too much to estrogen.  I've received blood tests but am

> still waiting for results.

>

> Thanks again.  The subject of testicular shrinkage

> seems to be a popular one around here.  Like Dr.

> said, the aesthetic aspect of this therapy should not be

> dismissed.

>

> CH

>

> >

> > I talked to my doc recently about my concerns that my

> testicles were shrinking shortly after beginning TRT.

> >

> > He replied that he does not mix TRT with HCG, but

> rather prefers to alternate them.  For example, he

> would implant pellets for 3 months and then put me on HCG

> for 3 months.  To me, this sounds less than optimal, as

> I would prefer to have both my levels and my nuts well

> regulated at all times.

> >

> > Does anyone know of any studies or other information I

> could present to my doctor to persuade him to mix these

> meds?

> >

> > Thanks!

> >

> > CH

> >

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

CH most Dr.'s use 75mg pellets so 12 is only 900 mgs when I had them put in this

lasted me only 30 days I cost me $1000 seeing the Dr. the first time for his

labs he would not use my health care pain lab and for putting in the pellets

with the cost of them. So when I went back in 30 days doing labs at my Dr.'s

showing him I was low again. He gave me more pellets 6 for $500. I seen he got

his pellets from College Pharmacy my Family Dr. called them later and found out

I was charged 10x's what the cost of each pellet was and the Dr. did not give me

enough of them.

This is when I went on Compounded Testosterone Cream from College. And I did

good on it for yrs now this was some 15 yrs ago.

There is a new pellet out there 200 mgs each I don't think he used them it would

be 2400 mgs.

If this Dr. will work with you get labs doing Quest labs doing the following.

Estradiol sensitive Code #4021

Testosterone, Free, Bioavailable & Total LC/MS/MS Code # 14966X.

If your Estradiol levels are high get some Arimidex if your above 50 best at 20

start with .5 mgs or 1/2 a pill every other day. If less then 50 but above 30

try .25 mgs every other day.

Ask to go on shots start with 100 mgs / week have him show you how to do them

your self. And ask for HCG so your testis will not stop working and get small

doing 250 IU's the 2 days each before your next Test C shot.

Co-Moderator

Phil

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: cylonhippy <cylonhippy@...>

> Subject: Re: Doc won't mix T and HCG

>

> Date: Sunday, November 28, 2010, 8:40 PM

> That makes perfect sense, Phil. 

> My body's feedback systems are just regulating around the

> pellets and ending up exactly where they were before

> (although I would bet my estradiol is higher now). 

>

> I understand the doc has been backed up, but I'll give the

> office another call tomorrow and will post when I have the

> results.

>

> By the way, my Testim dose was 1 tube per day, but I only

> did that for 2 weeks.  Then I had 12 pellets

> implanted.  I don't know how much T each one contained;

> each was about the size of a grain of rice.

>

> CH

>

>

> > > >

> > > > I talked to my doc recently about my

> concerns that my

> > > testicles were shrinking shortly after beginning

> TRT.

> > > >

> > > > He replied that he does not mix TRT with

> HCG, but

> > > rather prefers to alternate them.  For

> example, he

> > > would implant pellets for 3 months and then put

> me on HCG

> > > for 3 months.  To me, this sounds less than

> optimal, as

> > > I would prefer to have both my levels and my nuts

> well

> > > regulated at all times.

> > > >

> > > > Does anyone know of any studies or other

> information I

> > > could present to my doctor to persuade him to mix

> these

> > > meds?

> > > >

> > > > Thanks!

> > > >

> > > > CH

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ------------------------------------

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

CH your feeling this bad because your Estradiol levels are very high. Do you

get involuntary nocturnal erections that appear during REM (Rapid Eye Movement)

sleep. Or do you have ED problems, feel hot and sweat easy, look red on your

upper body and face, feel angizty or Panic feeling have sore and hard nipples.

A lab is a lab never heard of on running on the high side WTF is with some Dr.'s

and there Bull Shi*. Your feeling this bad because your Estraidol levels are to

high. If your Dr. will not treat this buy some Indolplex/DIM get this brand

take one at dinner time. It works slower then Arimidex but in a week you should

start to feel better it will be slow but in about 4 week your levels will come

down. You will be able to tell when your involuntary nocturnal erections that

appear during REM (Rapid Eye Movement) sleep start up again.

http://www.iherb.com/Enzymatic-Therapy-Pure-Rip-with-DIM-60-Tablets/12814?at=0

Your Dr. is not up on reading your labs your Free T is very low because your

Estradiol is high this makes SHBG high and SHBG binds up your Testosteone so

it's not working. As you get your Estradiol levels down your SHBG will come

down and free up your Free Testosteone and your levels will shoot up and you

will feel better. The pellets your taking are giving you good level 800 but

it's all bound up not working read this link so you can learn about this.

http://www.griffinmedical.com/male_hormone_modulation_therapy.html

Your working with a good Dr. he just is not up on some things like high levels

of Estradiol show him this link.

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/89/3/1174

Older men end up with low T due to high Estradiol levels and not going on TRT

just getting there Estradiol levels down there labs can go up some 200 to 300

points taking Arimidex.

http://www.medibolics.com/ArimidexBoostsTestosterone.htm

Your best level for Estradiol is 20 pg/ml.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: cylonhippy <cylonhippy@...>

> Subject: Re: Doc won't mix T and HCG

>

> Date: Wednesday, December 1, 2010, 7:43 AM

> Phil,

>

> It looks like you nailed the diagnosis.  The test

> results finally came in.  The values in parenthesis are

> my baseline numbers acquired before starting any form of

> TRT:

>

> Total T:  811 (505)

> Free T:    1.57 (0.65, but the lab range is

> 0.95-4.3, so my recent reading is still near the bottom.

> Estradiol: 53.3 (53.4) No Change.  The doc said his

> lab tends to give high results, and that these numbers

> aren't very high by his scale (range is 20-75)

> LH:          <0.2 (2.5)

> SHBG:     39 (38)

>

> It has been 3 weeks since the blood was collected for these

> numbers, and I can feel my condition continuing to

> slide.  Energy is down.  Libido is way

> down--essentially to baseline.  I'm starting to fall

> asleep after dinner again, have trouble waking up in the

> mornings, etc.  In other words, this isn't working

> anymore.

>

> I have a call into my doctor to ask whether I really need

> to wait until January (my next scheduled appointment) before

> I can do anything.  This would be a good time to push

> for the combined T/HCG approach.

>

> Do these numbers tell you anything more?

>

> CH

>

>

>

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I talked to my doc recently about

> my

> > > concerns that my

> > > > > testicles were shrinking shortly after

> beginning

> > > TRT.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > He replied that he does not mix

> TRT with

> > > HCG, but

> > > > > rather prefers to alternate

> them.  For

> > > example, he

> > > > > would implant pellets for 3 months and

> then put

> > > me on HCG

> > > > > for 3 months.  To me, this

> sounds less than

> > > optimal, as

> > > > > I would prefer to have both my levels

> and my nuts

> > > well

> > > > > regulated at all times.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Does anyone know of any studies or

> other

> > > information I

> > > > > could present to my doctor to persuade

> him to mix

> > > these

> > > > > meds?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Thanks!

> > > > > >

> > > > > > CH

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > ------------------------------------

> > > > >

> > > > >

[Guest guest]

All I can tell you is to read the Database Section see if you can find a Dr.

there it's called the Physician Reference.

In the files section read " Finding a Male Hormone Dr. " then make calls ask how

many men does the Dr. treat for low T and if he checks to see why a man is

low.  Dose he test and treat High Estraidol with Arimidex.  Will he use HCG to

keep the LH cells in the body and testis working after going on TRT.  You will

know by this when you have a good Dr.

As try Emailing or calling Compounding Pharmacy's ask for the name and number of

Dr.'s that buy Testosterone meds your area this works good to but call and still

ask questions first.

http://www.collegepharmacy.com/menshealth/andropause.asp

ANEWrx

523 Parkway View Drive

Pittsburgh, PA 15205

877-788-8908 (ph)

877-788-8948 (fax)

Monday - Friday (9am - 6pm)

Saturday 10am - 2pm

www.ANEWrx.com

Try reading and posting at the following forums see if someone knows a Dr.

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-anti-aging/

http://tnation.t-nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_training_performance_bodybu\

ilding_trt?pageNo=1 & s=forumsNavTop

http://www.musclechatroom.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?s= & daysprune= & f=2

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: cylonhippy <cylonhippy@...>

> Subject: Re: Doc won't mix T and HCG

>

> Date: Wednesday, December 1, 2010, 1:06 PM

> Phil,

>

> I can see my E2 levels are high.  I wonder why my

> doctor never mentioned it.  I'm waiting for him to call

> back.  As for your list of symptoms, I do have a few of

> the symptoms you mentioned.

>

> I'd like to start challenging my doctor on this and the HCG

> matter, but I want to have back up.

>

> Can you recommend any doctors in the Boston area who I

> could go to if this relationship breaks down?

>

> Thanks, CH

>

>

>

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I talked to my doc

> recently about

> > > my

> > > > > concerns that my

> > > > > > > testicles were shrinking

> shortly after

> > > beginning

> > > > > TRT.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > He replied that he does

> not mix

> > > TRT with

> > > > > HCG, but

> > > > > > > rather prefers to alternate

> > > them.  For

> > > > > example, he

> > > > > > > would implant pellets for 3

> months and

> > > then put

> > > > > me on HCG

> > > > > > > for 3

> months.  To me, this

> > > sounds less than

> > > > > optimal, as

> > > > > > > I would prefer to have both

> my levels

> > > and my nuts

> > > > > well

> > > > > > > regulated at all times.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Does anyone know of any

> studies or

> > > other

> > > > > information I

> > > > > > > could present to my doctor to

> persuade

> > > him to mix

> > > > > these

> > > > > > > meds?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Thanks!

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > CH

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> ------------------------------------

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

[Guest guest]

Just call him and ask questions.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: cylonhippy <cylonhippy@...>

> Subject: Re: Doc won't mix T and HCG

>

> Date: Wednesday, December 1, 2010, 2:13 PM

> I just found the database of

> doctors.  Dr. Gilbert s is an endo near me and

> might be good.  My current doc is fine prescribing T bu

> seems to be hesitant to treat my estrogen (I'm 60.5

> percentile) and to mix T with HCG.

>

> If anybody has experience with Dr. s, please let me

> know how things worked out.

>

> Thanks,

> CH

>

>

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I talked to my doc

> recently about

> > > > my

> > > > > > concerns that my

> > > > > > > > testicles were shrinking

> shortly after

> > > > beginning

> > > > > > TRT.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > He replied that he

> does not mix

> > > > TRT with

> > > > > > HCG, but

> > > > > > > > rather prefers to

> alternate

> > > > them.  For

> > > > > > example, he

> > > > > > > > would implant pellets

> for 3 months and

> > > > then put

> > > > > > me on HCG

> > > > > > > > for 3

> months.  To me, this

> > > > sounds less than

> > > > > > optimal, as

> > > > > > > > I would prefer to have

> both my levels

> > > > and my nuts

> > > > > > well

> > > > > > > > regulated at all times.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Does anyone know of

> any studies or

> > > > other

> > > > > > information I

> > > > > > > > could present to my

> doctor to persuade

> > > > him to mix

> > > > > > these

> > > > > > > > meds?

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Thanks!

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > CH

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> ------------------------------------

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

[Guest guest]

It's time to kick this Dr. to the curb.

Read my post to a new guy I just did in this I talk about finding a new dr.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: cylonhippy <cylonhippy@...>

> Subject: Re: Doc won't mix T and HCG

>

> Date: Friday, December 3, 2010, 2:23 PM

> Well, this is discouraging.

>

> I just received a call from a physician's assistant at my

> doctor's practice (doc won't call himself).  He told me

> my E2 readings of 53 pg/mL were fine and nothing to worry

> about.  He said the only problem with levels going too

> high is they might make my chest feel tender.

>

> By the way, the " normal range " for E2 from this lab was 20

> to 75 pg/mL, so my reading is toward the high end of the

> middle.

>

> Also, he said my free T of 1.57 (normal range 0.95-4.3

> ng/dL were just where they wanted to see them.  I said

> I was no longer feeling any subjective benefit.  He

> said my only option was to wait for my appointment in

> January.  I asked whether I could supplement with gel,

> which I already have, and he said no, that that would be

> shooting in the dark.

>

> So, in summary, these guys won't mix T with HCG, don't

> think E2 of 53 is a big deal, and are happy with low to

> middle-range free T. 

>

> Maybe it's time for a second opinion?

>

>

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > I talked

> to my doc

> > > recently about

> > > > > > my

> > > > > > > > concerns that my

> > > > > > > > > > testicles were

> shrinking

> > > shortly after

> > > > > > beginning

> > > > > > > > TRT.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > He

> replied that he

> > > does not mix

> > > > > > TRT with

> > > > > > > > HCG, but

> > > > > > > > > > rather prefers

> to

> > > alternate

> > > > > >

> them.ÃÆ'‚  For

> > > > > > > > example, he

> > > > > > > > > > would implant

> pellets

> > > for 3 months and

> > > > > > then put

> > > > > > > > me on HCG

> > > > > > > > > > for 3

> > > months.ÃÆ'‚ 

> To me, this

> > > > > > sounds less than

> > > > > > > > optimal, as

> > > > > > > > > > I would prefer

> to have

> > > both my levels

> > > > > > and my nuts

> > > > > > > > well

> > > > > > > > > > regulated at

> all times.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Does

> anyone know of

> > > any studies or

> > > > > > other

> > > > > > > > information I

> > > > > > > > > > could present

> to my

> > > doctor to persuade

> > > > > > him to mix

> > > > > > > > these

> > > > > > > > > > meds?

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Thanks!

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > CH

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > ------------------------------------

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> Links

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> ÃÆ'‚ 

> > > ÃÆ'‚ 

-fullfeatured

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > ------------------------------------

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

[Guest guest]

Dr. Johh was the first Dr. to treat men with high Estradiol levels this is why

in his paper he tests this. And he was one of the first Dr.'s to post on his

forum if your SHBG is low you need to keep your Estraidol levels lower. His

papper is about TRT not E's or controling it.

If you go to any of the forums he was at and do a search you will get an ear

full about Estraidol.

This is his new forum got there join it's free do a search.

At this forum he use to run it do a search there.

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-anti-aging/

At this site they called Dr. SWALE go there do a search.

http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/mens-health-forum/

I feel your levels are way to high even though your Dr. did the wrong Estraidol

test on you. I you want to redo it get the Quest labs test for Estradiol

senitive #4012 range is 13 to 54 pg/ml best level for men is 20 pg/ml.

Most Dr.'s will not even test this in men and the ones that do will not treat

it.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: cylonhippy <cylonhippy@...>

> Subject: Re: Doc won't mix T and HCG

>

> Date: Tuesday, December 7, 2010, 2:47 PM

> I just finished reading Dr. Crisler's

> paper on administering TRT found at

http://www.allthingsmale.com/word_docs/TRT.doc

>

> I expected to see him recommending low E2 values, but was

> surprised by this:

>

> " Estrogen is absolutely necessary for our physical health.

> Of note, same also provides the emotional component of a

> mature gentleman's sexual being. This is why estrogens must

> be evaluated and, when necessary, controlled. The " sweet

> spot " E concentration depends upon SHBG. Rule of thumb is

> mid-range for both. "

>

> Isn't my reading (53 on a scale from 20 to 75)

> approximately mid-range?  Should I be even considering

> arimidex with these numbers?

>

>

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> I talked

> > > to my doc

> > > > > recently about

> > > > > > > > my

> > > > > > > > > > concerns that

> my

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> testicles were

> > > shrinking

> > > > > shortly after

> > > > > > > > beginning

> > > > > > > > > > TRT.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

>

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> He

> > > replied that he

> > > > > does not mix

> > > > > > > > TRT with

> > > > > > > > > > HCG, but

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> rather prefers

> > > to

> > > > > alternate

> > > > > > > >

> > >

>

them.ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚Ãââ‚\

¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚ 

> For

> > > > > > > > > > example, he

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> would implant

> > > pellets

> > > > > for 3 months and

> > > > > > > > then put

> > > > > > > > > > me on HCG

> > > > > > > > > > > > for

> 3

> > > > >

>

months.ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚Ãâ\

€šÃ‚ 

> > > To me, this

> > > > > > > > sounds less than

> > > > > > > > > > optimal, as

> > > > > > > > > > > > I

> would prefer

> > > to have

> > > > > both my levels

> > > > > > > > and my nuts

> > > > > > > > > > well

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> regulated at

> > > all times.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

>

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> Does

> > > anyone know of

> > > > > any studies or

> > > > > > > > other

> > > > > > > > > > information I

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> could present

> > > to my

> > > > > doctor to persuade

> > > > > > > > him to mix

> > > > > > > > > > these

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> meds?

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

>

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> Thanks!

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

>

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> CH

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > ------------------------------------

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

>

> > > Links

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

>

ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÃ\

‚ 

> > > > >

>

ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÃ\

‚ 

> -fullfeatured

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > ------------------------------------

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> Links

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> ÃÆ'‚ 

> > > ÃÆ'‚ 

-fullfeatured

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > ------------------------------------

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

[Guest guest]

Yes it's safe here is a link to a study that supports what Dr. does with

HCG.

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/90/5/2595

Dr.'s have been treating men that are Secondary have a Pituitary Problem with

HCG for yrs.  It even talked about in the AACE Guildelines.

http://www.aace.com/pub/pdf/guidelines/hypogonadism.pdf

There is even a HCG diet out there Dr.'s all over the place are using this to

help people lose weight.

http://4hcgsuccess.com/hcg-protocol

Here is a cut and paste of a copy of a post to me from Dr. to help me get

my Dr. to let me use HCG.

================================================

He probably feels that since you suffer primary hypogonadism (I am guessing)

there is no use in adding HCG to your protocol. There are several reasons why

this is not so. First, you have not lost all Leydig cells, so any HCG you take

will stimulate those who still function to produce endogenous testosterone.

This will support testicular size. We should not ignore this aesthetic

consideration.

Next, if he reads my work, he will learn that HPTA-suppressed (as all TRT

patients are to some extent) also suffer decreased pregenenolone levels, which

is the first step after CHOL in all three hormonal pathways which begin with

CHOL. HCG increases pregnenolone production, and therefore restores a more

natural balance of our hormones.

Next, nearly all TRT patients who add in HCG to their regimens report an

increased sense of well-being and also libido. These are genuine quality of life

issues.

Finally, I just instinctively do not want all those LH receptors (including

those we have yet to discover and appreciate) unstimulated.

Read more from the MESO-Rx Steroid Forum at:

http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/mens-health-forum/swale-your-hcg-protocl-13423447\

2.html#ixzz17XHZMeLK

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: cylonhippy <cylonhippy@...>

> Subject: Re: Doc won't mix T and HCG

>

> Date: Tuesday, December 7, 2010, 5:55 PM

> So you think he was just being

> cautious?  Testing the waters, as it were?  I

> mentioned Crisler's TRT/HCG protocol to an MD friend who is

> also on TRT.  He asked whether HCG is safe.  Do

> you have any safety data on HCG, which could reassure him

> (and me)?

>

> Thanks!

> CH

>

>

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> >

> > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > I talked

> > > > > to my doc

> > > > > > > recently about

> > > > > > > > > > my

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> concerns that

> > > my

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> >

> > > testicles were

> > > > > shrinking

> > > > > > > shortly after

> > > > > > > > > > beginning

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> TRT.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > He

> > > > > replied that he

> > > > > > > does not mix

> > > > > > > > > > TRT with

> > > > > > > > > > > > HCG,

> but

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> >

> > > rather prefers

> > > > > to

> > > > > > > alternate

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > >

>

them.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Ã\

ƒâ€¦Ã‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'ââ‚Â\

¬Ã…¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚ 

> > > For

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> example, he

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> >

> > > would implant

> > > > > pellets

> > > > > > > for 3 months and

> > > > > > > > > > then put

> > > > > > > > > > > > me

> on HCG

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > for

> > > 3

> > > > > > >

> > >

>

months.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬\

Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'âââ€\

šÂ¬Ã…¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚ 

> > > > > To me, this

> > > > > > > > > > sounds less

> than

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> optimal, as

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > I

> > > would prefer

> > > > > to have

> > > > > > > both my levels

> > > > > > > > > > and my nuts

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> well

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> >

> > > regulated at

> > > > > all times.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > Does

> > > > > anyone know of

> > > > > > > any studies or

> > > > > > > > > > other

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> information I

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> >

> > > could present

> > > > > to my

> > > > > > > doctor to persuade

> > > > > > > > > > him to mix

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> these

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> >

> > > meds?

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > Thanks!

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > CH

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> >

> > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> >

> > > > > > >

> ------------------------------------

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> >

> > >

> > > > > Links

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> >

> > > > >

> > >

>

ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Ãââ\

‚¬Â¦Ãƒâ€šÃ‚¡ÃƒÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚\

 

> > > > > > >

> > >

>

ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Ãââ\

‚¬Â¦Ãƒâ€šÃ‚¡ÃƒÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚\

 

> > > -fullfeatured

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> ------------------------------------

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

>

> > > Links

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

>

ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÃ\

‚ 

> > > > >

>

ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÃ\

‚ 

> -fullfeatured

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > ------------------------------------

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> Links

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> ÃÆ'‚ 

> > > ÃÆ'‚ 

-fullfeatured

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> ------------------------------------

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

[Guest guest]

I under stand your concern about this I stressed about it the same way. But for

every thing out there that is good there is just as much info out there saying

it's bad. You have to do research and make up your mind. I talked to men on

HCG for low T that were on it for yrs never a problem.

Dr.s told me after Heart Bypass surgery to go on Statin Drugs it was save my

life and is good for my heart. I listened to them and from the day I started on

them I had joint and muscle pain. They all kept telling me Statin drugs don't

do this. I told them why do I need to be on this I never had high Chol. levels

in my life. All I got was do you went to live longer.

Now because of them Statin Drugs I can't stand up or walk with out a walker and

I am in a lot of pain when I stand up or try to walk. Now that this happened to

me my Dam Dr.'s know all about how this can happen and how to treat it.

You would have no idea how mad I am about this after all the crap I went through

in the last 30 yrs.

So yes you need to research and make up your mind about this.

My going on HCG after being on TRT 23 yrs. helped me to find out way I have low

T levels. Dr.'s told me for all them yrs. I am Primary meaning my Testis don't

work. I added HCG to my TRT doing 500 IU's 3x's / wk. After the 15th. shot we

did labs and my Total T levels doubled my testis jumped in and started making T

so I am not Primary I am Secondary my Pituitary is bad due to a head injury from

an Auto Accident some 30 yrs ago.

Going all them yrs with other hormones being low is what I ended up with Heart

problems. Now that we know I am Hypopituitary and treat all my low or low

normal range hormones I do much better. Hel* I am lucky to be here telling you

this.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: cylonhippy <cylonhippy@...>

> Subject: Re: Doc won't mix T and HCG

>

> Date: Wednesday, December 8, 2010, 12:27 PM

> Thank you, Phil.  This is

> somewhat reassuring.  However, I'm not seeing any long

> term studies of cancer risk or other health risks. 

> Unlike people on the HCG diet, cases of delayed puberty, or

> cases where women are trying to get pregnant, we guys on TRT

> will presumably be taking HCG for life.  It would be

> nice to have more data.

>

>

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > > > > I talked

> > > > > > > to my doc

> > > > > > > > > recently about

> > > > > > > > > > > > my

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> >

> > > concerns that

> > > > > my

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > >

> > > > > testicles were

> > > > > > > shrinking

> > > > > > > > > shortly after

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> beginning

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> >

> > > TRT.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > > > > He

> > > > > > > replied that he

> > > > > > > > > does not mix

> > > > > > > > > > > > TRT

> with

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > HCG,

> > > but

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > >

> > > > > rather prefers

> > > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > > alternate

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > >

>

them.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'ÂÃâ\

€šÃ‚¢ÃƒÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ\

'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢ÃÆ\

’¢â€šÂ¬Ã…¡ÃÆ'Æ'âââ€Å\

¡Ã‚¬Ã…¡ÃÆ'‚ 

> > > > > For

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> >

> > > example, he

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > >

> > > > > would implant

> > > > > > > pellets

> > > > > > > > > for 3 months and

> > > > > > > > > > > > then

> put

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > me

> > > on HCG

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > for

> > > > > 3

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > >

>

months.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'ÂÃ\

ƒâ€šÃ‚¢ÃƒÆ'¢â€šÂ¬Ã\

Æ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢Ã\

ƒÆ’¢â€šÂ¬Ã…¡ÃÆ'Æ'ââââ‚\

¬Å¡Ã‚¬Ã…¡ÃÆ'‚ 

> > > > > > > To me, this

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> sounds less

> > > than

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> >

> > > optimal, as

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > I

> > > > > would prefer

> > > > > > > to have

> > > > > > > > > both my levels

> > > > > > > > > > > > and

> my nuts

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> >

> > > well

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > >

> > > > > regulated at

> > > > > > > all times.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Does

> > > > > > > anyone know of

> > > > > > > > > any studies or

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> other

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> >

> > > information I

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > >

> > > > > could present

> > > > > > > to my

> > > > > > > > > doctor to persuade

> > > > > > > > > > > > him

> to mix

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> >

> > > these

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > >

> > > > > meds?

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Thanks!

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > > > > CH

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > ------------------------------------

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > Links

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > >

>

ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'ÂÂÂÂ\

¢ÃƒÆ’Æ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'â\

€¦Ã‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â\

‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'â€\

Å¡ÃÆ'‚ 

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > >

>

ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'ÂÂÂÂ\

¢ÃƒÆ’Æ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'â\

€¦Ã‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â\

‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'â€\

Å¡ÃÆ'‚ 

> > > > > -fullfeatured

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> >

> > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > ------------------------------------

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> >

> > >

> > > > > Links

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> >

> > > > >

> > >

>

ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Ãââ\

‚¬Â¦Ãƒâ€šÃ‚¡ÃƒÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚\

 

> > > > > > >

> > >

>

ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Ãââ\

‚¬Â¦Ãƒâ€šÃ‚¡ÃƒÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚\

 

> > > -fullfeatured

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> ------------------------------------

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

>

> > > Links

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

>

ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÃ\

‚ 

> > > > >

>

ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ÂÃ\

‚ 

> -fullfeatured

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > ------------------------------------

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> Links

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> ÃÆ'‚ 

> > > ÃÆ'‚ 

-fullfeatured

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> ------------------------------------

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

[Guest guest]

If you were on Statin Drugs then you can have or end up with low CoQ10 levels.

You would do your self a get Justis taking some Ubiquinol Featuring Kaneka's Qh

try 50 to 100 mgs / day. My Heart Dr. has me on 1200 mgs 400 mgs 3x's/day.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: cylonhippy <cylonhippy@...>

> Subject: Re: Doc won't mix T and HCG

>

> Date: Wednesday, December 8, 2010, 1:53 PM

> And we are lucky to have you

> here.  Seriously, it is a great comfort to be able to

> chat about these matters with someone who is so

> knowledgeable and helpful.  Conversations with doctors

> are too formal and there's always a concern that if you

> challenge them they will get pissy and deny you what you

> need.  And they don't always know what's best--not even

> the " good ones. "

>

> I'm sorry to hear about your health concerns.  I hope

> you're getting good care.

>

> I recently stopped taking statin drugs after my total

> cholesterol came back at 124.  I found lots of

> information on the web saying that low cholesterol can

> actually be dangerous.  I'll bring that up with my PCP

> when I see him next month.

>

>

>

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I talked

> > > > > > > > > to my doc

> > > > > > > > > > > recently

> about

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > my

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > >

> > > > > concerns that

> > > > > > > my

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > testicles were

> > > > > > > > > shrinking

> > > > > > > > > > > shortly

> after

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> >

> > > beginning

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > >

> > > > > TRT.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

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