Re: Doc won't mix T and HCG

[Guest guest]

Hi CH,

Instead of trying to convince your doc that you are correct, ask your doc to

show you why he is correct. As a patient, you do have this right.

Does he have any studies to prove that alternating TRT and HCG is best for a

patient? I kind of doubt it. Ask him to provide studies (and links to the

studies) to prove his point.

Just be prepared to recognize that challenging a doc may make said doc less

likely to help you in the future.

From: [mailto: ]

On Behalf Of cylonhippy

Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 4:52 PM

Subject: Doc won't mix T and HCG

I talked to my doc recently about my concerns that my testicles were

shrinking shortly after beginning TRT.

He replied that he does not mix TRT with HCG, but rather prefers to

alternate them. For example, he would implant pellets for 3 months and then

put me on HCG for 3 months. To me, this sounds less than optimal, as I would

prefer to have both my levels and my nuts well regulated at all times.

Does anyone know of any studies or other information I could present to my

doctor to persuade him to mix these meds?

Thanks!

CH

[Guest guest]

Hi Ch,

I can't say this will not work but I do know from talking to men over the yrs.

Most men don't do well on HCG by it's self. I am one of them I need a lot of T

I am in a lot of pain and use up the testosterone very fast so I do shots 100

mgs every 3 days and the day before my Test C shot I use 250 IU's of HCG. This

keeps my levels up to about 1000.

Just doing HCG I need to do 100 IU's/day this gets my levels up near 800 and

it's high enough but it drives up my Estradiol very high this is a problem with

to much HCG or HCG only you need so much of it you can end up with higher levels

of Estradiol.

But I have yet to meet a man on Pellets doing HCG we have talked about it at Dr.

's forum and most feel the HCG would be use the way men on Gels use doing

250 IU's every 3 days.

Also most of the men on pellets don't have high Estradiol problem yet they have

good higher levels if there Dr. gives them the right amount of pellets this

would be 1500 to 2000 mgs to last 3 to 4 months.

All you can do is try what your Dr. is talking about see how it works. Dr.

feels men need HCG because being on TRT your brain sees the testosterone in your

blood and stops sending the LH message to your Testis, Body and Brain. This

means all the LH cells in your body are not working.

When I wanted to try HCG my Dr. would not give it to me because they felt I was

Primary and it would not make my Testis work. Men that are Primary have low T

because there Testis can't make T.

I posted about this at one of Dr. 's forums and here is what he replayed to

me to help me get my Dr. to let me try HCG.

===================================================

He probably feels that since you suffer primary hypogonadism (I am guessing)

there is no use in adding HCG to your protocol. There are several reasons why

this is not so. First, you have not lost all Leydig cells, so any HCG you take

will stimulate those who still function to produce endogenous testosterone.

This will support testicular size. We should not ignore this aesthetic

consideration.

Next, if he reads my work, he will learn that HPTA-suppressed (as all TRT

patients are to some extent) also suffer decreased pregenenolone levels, which

is the first step after CHOL in all three hormonal pathways which begin with

CHOL. HCG increases pregnenolone production, and therefore restores a more

natural balance of our hormones.

Next, nearly all TRT patients who add in HCG to their regimens report an

increased sense of well-being and also libido. These are genuine quality of life

issues.

Finally, I just instinctively do not want all those LH receptors (including

those we have yet to discover and appreciate) unstimulated.

---------------------------------------------------

If you go to www.allthingsmale.com you can read Dr.'s HCG Update and this

link supports what he is saying.

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/90/5/2595

Also there are a huge amount of people on the HCG diet doing shots of HCG

everyday that don't need more Testosterone and they don't have any problems.

http://4hcgsuccess.com/hcg-protocol

Because of this HCG diet them people use up all the HCG around and it's all ways

on back order. So most of the time we can't get it and we need it.

So men are ordering it from over seas from the ADC. They sell a pre mixed brand

that people are saying works very will now I even hear there are pills of HCG

how good all this is I can't say.

I use Novarel and it need to be mixed and kept in the Fridge after it's mixed

it's only good for 30 days. The cost for 2000 IU's vial is $10.00 and this will

last 30 days doing 250 IU's every 3 days men buy this 6 at a time. If you got a

script for Novarel and had to pay for it it can cost your $60 to $120 for 10,000

IU's and you end up throwing most of it out.

http://www.alldaychemist.com/688-hucog-2000-iu-.html

A lot of men like myself don't trust the pre mixed kind of HCG so they buy the

kind from the ADC that needs mixing but the water that comes with it is meant to

be mixed and used the same day it will not keep 30 days if your use the water

that comes with it.

http://www.alldaychemist.com/1261-corion.html

So if your buy from ADC and it needs mixing follow this cut and paste on mixing

it. You don't need your Dr. to try this. The site is down here it a link to it

if you mix your own you need to buy Bac. water.

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?238888-How-to-mix-HCG

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: cylonhippy <cylonhippy@...>

> Subject: Doc won't mix T and HCG

>

> Date: Monday, November 22, 2010, 5:51 PM

> I talked to my doc recently about my

> concerns that my testicles were shrinking shortly after

> beginning TRT.

>

> He replied that he does not mix TRT with HCG, but rather

> prefers to alternate them.  For example, he would

> implant pellets for 3 months and then put me on HCG for 3

> months.  To me, this sounds less than optimal, as I

> would prefer to have both my levels and my nuts well

> regulated at all times.

>

> Does anyone know of any studies or other information I

> could present to my doctor to persuade him to mix these

> meds?

>

> Thanks!

>

> CH

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Good point Dr. says the body likes regularity so to get the testis

working for 3 months then to shut them back down again the body does not work

this way and it can stress everything out.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: <hostmaster@...>

> Subject: RE: Doc won't mix T and HCG

>

> Date: Monday, November 22, 2010, 6:35 PM

> Hi CH,

>

>

>

> Instead of trying to convince your doc that you are

> correct, ask your doc to

> show you why he is correct.  As a patient, you do have

> this right.

>

>

>

> Does he have any studies to prove that alternating TRT and

> HCG is best for a

> patient?  I kind of doubt it.  Ask him to provide

> studies (and links to the

> studies) to prove his point.

>

>

>

> Just be prepared to recognize that challenging a doc may

> make said doc less

> likely to help you in the future.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> From:

> [mailto: ]

> On Behalf Of cylonhippy

> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 4:52 PM

>

> Subject: Doc won't mix T and HCG

>

>

>

>  

>

> I talked to my doc recently about my concerns that my

> testicles were

> shrinking shortly after beginning TRT.

>

> He replied that he does not mix TRT with HCG, but rather

> prefers to

> alternate them. For example, he would implant pellets for 3

> months and then

> put me on HCG for 3 months. To me, this sounds less than

> optimal, as I would

> prefer to have both my levels and my nuts well regulated at

> all times.

>

> Does anyone know of any studies or other information I

> could present to my

> doctor to persuade him to mix these meds?

>

> Thanks!

>

> CH

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Sounds like a steroid cycle more so that HRT rotating like that.

________________________________

From: cylonhippy <cylonhippy@...>

Sent: Mon, November 22, 2010 3:51:58 PM

Subject: Doc won't mix T and HCG

I talked to my doc recently about my concerns that my testicles were shrinking

shortly after beginning TRT.

He replied that he does not mix TRT with HCG, but rather prefers to alternate

them. For example, he would implant pellets for 3 months and then put me on HCG

for 3 months. To me, this sounds less than optimal, as I would prefer to have

both my levels and my nuts well regulated at all times.

Does anyone know of any studies or other information I could present to my

doctor to persuade him to mix these meds?

Thanks!

CH

[Guest guest]

That might be were this Dr. got this idea I know of a few men that posted on the

forums that there Dr. had them doing a cycle on there TRT. They felt like they

were on a roller coaster ride up and down and feeling like crap. Men with low T

should not cycle there meds.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: sharkbyte03@... <sharkbyte03@...>

> Subject: Re: Doc won't mix T and HCG

>

> Date: Tuesday, November 23, 2010, 1:41 PM

> Sounds like a steroid cycle more so

> that HRT rotating like that.

>

>

>

>

>

> ________________________________

> From: cylonhippy <cylonhippy@...>

>

> Sent: Mon, November 22, 2010 3:51:58 PM

> Subject: Doc won't mix T and HCG

>

>  

> I talked to my doc recently about my concerns that my

> testicles were shrinking

> shortly after beginning TRT.

>

> He replied that he does not mix TRT with HCG, but rather

> prefers to alternate

> them.  For example, he would implant pellets for 3

> months and then put me on HCG

> for 3 months.  To me, this sounds less than optimal,

> as I would prefer to have

> both my levels and my nuts well regulated at all times.

>

> Does anyone know of any studies or other information I

> could present to my

> doctor to persuade him to mix these meds?

>

> Thanks!

>

> CH

>

>

>

>

>

>      

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you, Phil, , and Sharkbyte.

I will continue the discussion with my doc, while trying not to challenge him

too much. Perhaps I'll mention the Dr. forum post. I think the argument

that HCG is good for numerous hormonal pathways is a good one.

For backup, I might want to look for another doc in my area (Boston, MA). Does

anyone know of a good TRT doc around these parts?

Meanwhile, the shrinkage has really progressed.

Personally, I felt my best in the 2 weeks after first starting TRT. I was using

Testim gel at 1 tube per day. Since receiving the pellets, my subjective

feelings of energy and libido have not been as great. I don't know whether my

levels are too low or I'm converting too much to estrogen. I've received blood

tests but am still waiting for results.

Thanks again. The subject of testicular shrinkage seems to be a popular one

around here. Like Dr. said, the aesthetic aspect of this therapy should

not be dismissed.

CH

>

> I talked to my doc recently about my concerns that my testicles were shrinking

shortly after beginning TRT.

>

> He replied that he does not mix TRT with HCG, but rather prefers to alternate

them. For example, he would implant pellets for 3 months and then put me on HCG

for 3 months. To me, this sounds less than optimal, as I would prefer to have

both my levels and my nuts well regulated at all times.

>

> Does anyone know of any studies or other information I could present to my

doctor to persuade him to mix these meds?

>

> Thanks!

>

> CH

>

[Guest guest]

That makes perfect sense, Phil. My body's feedback systems are just regulating

around the pellets and ending up exactly where they were before (although I

would bet my estradiol is higher now).

I understand the doc has been backed up, but I'll give the office another call

tomorrow and will post when I have the results.

By the way, my Testim dose was 1 tube per day, but I only did that for 2 weeks.

Then I had 12 pellets implanted. I don't know how much T each one contained;

each was about the size of a grain of rice.

CH

> > >

> > > I talked to my doc recently about my concerns that my

> > testicles were shrinking shortly after beginning TRT.

> > >

> > > He replied that he does not mix TRT with HCG, but

> > rather prefers to alternate them.  For example, he

> > would implant pellets for 3 months and then put me on HCG

> > for 3 months.  To me, this sounds less than optimal, as

> > I would prefer to have both my levels and my nuts well

> > regulated at all times.

> > >

> > > Does anyone know of any studies or other information I

> > could present to my doctor to persuade him to mix these

> > meds?

> > >

> > > Thanks!

> > >

> > > CH

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Phil,

It looks like you nailed the diagnosis. The test results finally came in. The

values in parenthesis are my baseline numbers acquired before starting any form

of TRT:

Total T: 811 (505)

Free T: 1.57 (0.65, but the lab range is 0.95-4.3, so my recent reading is

still near the bottom.

Estradiol: 53.3 (53.4) No Change. The doc said his lab tends to give high

results, and that these numbers aren't very high by his scale (range is 20-75)

LH: <0.2 (2.5)

SHBG: 39 (38)

It has been 3 weeks since the blood was collected for these numbers, and I can

feel my condition continuing to slide. Energy is down. Libido is way

down--essentially to baseline. I'm starting to fall asleep after dinner again,

have trouble waking up in the mornings, etc. In other words, this isn't working

anymore.

I have a call into my doctor to ask whether I really need to wait until January

(my next scheduled appointment) before I can do anything. This would be a good

time to push for the combined T/HCG approach.

Do these numbers tell you anything more?

CH

> > > > >

> > > > > I talked to my doc recently about my

> > concerns that my

> > > > testicles were shrinking shortly after beginning

> > TRT.

> > > > >

> > > > > He replied that he does not mix TRT with

> > HCG, but

> > > > rather prefers to alternate them.  For

> > example, he

> > > > would implant pellets for 3 months and then put

> > me on HCG

> > > > for 3 months.  To me, this sounds less than

> > optimal, as

> > > > I would prefer to have both my levels and my nuts

> > well

> > > > regulated at all times.

> > > > >

> > > > > Does anyone know of any studies or other

> > information I

> > > > could present to my doctor to persuade him to mix

> > these

> > > > meds?

> > > > >

> > > > > Thanks!

> > > > >

> > > > > CH

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > ------------------------------------

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

Phil,

I can see my E2 levels are high. I wonder why my doctor never mentioned it.

I'm waiting for him to call back. As for your list of symptoms, I do have a few

of the symptoms you mentioned.

I'd like to start challenging my doctor on this and the HCG matter, but I want

to have back up.

Can you recommend any doctors in the Boston area who I could go to if this

relationship breaks down?

Thanks, CH

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I talked to my doc recently about

> > my

> > > > concerns that my

> > > > > > testicles were shrinking shortly after

> > beginning

> > > > TRT.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > He replied that he does not mix

> > TRT with

> > > > HCG, but

> > > > > > rather prefers to alternate

> > them.  For

> > > > example, he

> > > > > > would implant pellets for 3 months and

> > then put

> > > > me on HCG

> > > > > > for 3 months.  To me, this

> > sounds less than

> > > > optimal, as

> > > > > > I would prefer to have both my levels

> > and my nuts

> > > > well

> > > > > > regulated at all times.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Does anyone know of any studies or

> > other

> > > > information I

> > > > > > could present to my doctor to persuade

> > him to mix

> > > > these

> > > > > > meds?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Thanks!

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > CH

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ------------------------------------

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

[Guest guest]

I just found the database of doctors. Dr. Gilbert s is an endo near me

and might be good. My current doc is fine prescribing T bu seems to be hesitant

to treat my estrogen (I'm 60.5 percentile) and to mix T with HCG.

If anybody has experience with Dr. s, please let me know how things worked

out.

Thanks,

CH

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I talked to my doc recently about

> > > my

> > > > > concerns that my

> > > > > > > testicles were shrinking shortly after

> > > beginning

> > > > > TRT.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > He replied that he does not mix

> > > TRT with

> > > > > HCG, but

> > > > > > > rather prefers to alternate

> > > them.  For

> > > > > example, he

> > > > > > > would implant pellets for 3 months and

> > > then put

> > > > > me on HCG

> > > > > > > for 3 months.  To me, this

> > > sounds less than

> > > > > optimal, as

> > > > > > > I would prefer to have both my levels

> > > and my nuts

> > > > > well

> > > > > > > regulated at all times.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Does anyone know of any studies or

> > > other

> > > > > information I

> > > > > > > could present to my doctor to persuade

> > > him to mix

> > > > > these

> > > > > > > meds?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Thanks!

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > CH

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > ------------------------------------

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

[Guest guest]

Well, this is discouraging.

I just received a call from a physician's assistant at my doctor's practice (doc

won't call himself). He told me my E2 readings of 53 pg/mL were fine and

nothing to worry about. He said the only problem with levels going too high is

they might make my chest feel tender.

By the way, the " normal range " for E2 from this lab was 20 to 75 pg/mL, so my

reading is toward the high end of the middle.

Also, he said my free T of 1.57 (normal range 0.95-4.3 ng/dL were just where

they wanted to see them. I said I was no longer feeling any subjective benefit.

He said my only option was to wait for my appointment in January. I asked

whether I could supplement with gel, which I already have, and he said no, that

that would be shooting in the dark.

So, in summary, these guys won't mix T with HCG, don't think E2 of 53 is a big

deal, and are happy with low to middle-range free T.

Maybe it's time for a second opinion?

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > I talked to my doc

> > recently about

> > > > > my

> > > > > > > concerns that my

> > > > > > > > > testicles were shrinking

> > shortly after

> > > > > beginning

> > > > > > > TRT.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > He replied that he

> > does not mix

> > > > > TRT with

> > > > > > > HCG, but

> > > > > > > > > rather prefers to

> > alternate

> > > > > them.ÃÆ'‚  For

> > > > > > > example, he

> > > > > > > > > would implant pellets

> > for 3 months and

> > > > > then put

> > > > > > > me on HCG

> > > > > > > > > for 3

> > months.ÃÆ'‚  To me, this

> > > > > sounds less than

> > > > > > > optimal, as

> > > > > > > > > I would prefer to have

> > both my levels

> > > > > and my nuts

> > > > > > > well

> > > > > > > > > regulated at all times.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Does anyone know of

> > any studies or

> > > > > other

> > > > > > > information I

> > > > > > > > > could present to my

> > doctor to persuade

> > > > > him to mix

> > > > > > > these

> > > > > > > > > meds?

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Thanks!

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > CH

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > ------------------------------------

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

[Guest guest]

I just finished reading Dr. Crisler's paper on administering TRT found at

http://www.allthingsmale.com/word_docs/TRT.doc

I expected to see him recommending low E2 values, but was surprised by this:

" Estrogen is absolutely necessary for our physical health. Of note, same also

provides the emotional component of a mature gentleman's sexual being. This is

why estrogens must be evaluated and, when necessary, controlled. The " sweet

spot " E concentration depends upon SHBG. Rule of thumb is mid-range for both. "

Isn't my reading (53 on a scale from 20 to 75) approximately mid-range? Should

I be even considering arimidex with these numbers?

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > I talked

> > to my doc

> > > > recently about

> > > > > > > my

> > > > > > > > > concerns that my

> > > > > > > > > > > testicles were

> > shrinking

> > > > shortly after

> > > > > > > beginning

> > > > > > > > > TRT.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > He

> > replied that he

> > > > does not mix

> > > > > > > TRT with

> > > > > > > > > HCG, but

> > > > > > > > > > > rather prefers

> > to

> > > > alternate

> > > > > > >

> > them.ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚  For

> > > > > > > > > example, he

> > > > > > > > > > > would implant

> > pellets

> > > > for 3 months and

> > > > > > > then put

> > > > > > > > > me on HCG

> > > > > > > > > > > for 3

> > > > months.ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ 

> > To me, this

> > > > > > > sounds less than

> > > > > > > > > optimal, as

> > > > > > > > > > > I would prefer

> > to have

> > > > both my levels

> > > > > > > and my nuts

> > > > > > > > > well

> > > > > > > > > > > regulated at

> > all times.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Does

> > anyone know of

> > > > any studies or

> > > > > > > other

> > > > > > > > > information I

> > > > > > > > > > > could present

> > to my

> > > > doctor to persuade

> > > > > > > him to mix

> > > > > > > > > these

> > > > > > > > > > > meds?

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks!

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > CH

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > ------------------------------------

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > Links

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ 

> > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ 

-fullfeatured

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > ------------------------------------

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

[Guest guest]

So you think he was just being cautious? Testing the waters, as it were? I

mentioned Crisler's TRT/HCG protocol to an MD friend who is also on TRT. He

asked whether HCG is safe. Do you have any safety data on HCG, which could

reassure him (and me)?

Thanks!

CH

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > I talked

> > > > to my doc

> > > > > > recently about

> > > > > > > > > my

> > > > > > > > > > > concerns that

> > my

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > testicles were

> > > > shrinking

> > > > > > shortly after

> > > > > > > > > beginning

> > > > > > > > > > > TRT.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > He

> > > > replied that he

> > > > > > does not mix

> > > > > > > > > TRT with

> > > > > > > > > > > HCG, but

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > rather prefers

> > > > to

> > > > > > alternate

> > > > > > > > >

> > > >

> >

them.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'ââ‚\

¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚ 

> > For

> > > > > > > > > > > example, he

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > would implant

> > > > pellets

> > > > > > for 3 months and

> > > > > > > > > then put

> > > > > > > > > > > me on HCG

> > > > > > > > > > > > > for

> > 3

> > > > > >

> >

months.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'â\

€šÃ‚ 

> > > > To me, this

> > > > > > > > > sounds less than

> > > > > > > > > > > optimal, as

> > > > > > > > > > > > > I

> > would prefer

> > > > to have

> > > > > > both my levels

> > > > > > > > > and my nuts

> > > > > > > > > > > well

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > regulated at

> > > > all times.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > Does

> > > > anyone know of

> > > > > > any studies or

> > > > > > > > > other

> > > > > > > > > > > information I

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > could present

> > > > to my

> > > > > > doctor to persuade

> > > > > > > > > him to mix

> > > > > > > > > > > these

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > meds?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > Thanks!

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > CH

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > ------------------------------------

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> >

> > > > Links

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > >

> >

ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚Ã\

‚ 

> > > > > >

> >

ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚Ã\

‚ 

> > -fullfeatured

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > ------------------------------------

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > Links

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ 

> > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ 

-fullfeatured

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > ------------------------------------

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

[Guest guest]

Thank you, Phil. This is somewhat reassuring. However, I'm not seeing any long

term studies of cancer risk or other health risks. Unlike people on the HCG

diet, cases of delayed puberty, or cases where women are trying to get pregnant,

we guys on TRT will presumably be taking HCG for life. It would be nice to have

more data.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > I talked

> > > > > > to my doc

> > > > > > > > recently about

> > > > > > > > > > > my

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > concerns that

> > > > my

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > testicles were

> > > > > > shrinking

> > > > > > > > shortly after

> > > > > > > > > > > beginning

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > TRT.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > He

> > > > > > replied that he

> > > > > > > > does not mix

> > > > > > > > > > > TRT with

> > > > > > > > > > > > > HCG,

> > but

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > rather prefers

> > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > alternate

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > >

> >

them.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬Ã\

Æ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'ââ‚Â\

¬Ã…¡ÃÆ'‚ 

> > > > For

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > example, he

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > would implant

> > > > > > pellets

> > > > > > > > for 3 months and

> > > > > > > > > > > then put

> > > > > > > > > > > > > me

> > on HCG

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > for

> > > > 3

> > > > > > > >

> > > >

> >

months.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬\

ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'âââ€\

šÂ¬Ã…¡ÃÆ'‚ 

> > > > > > To me, this

> > > > > > > > > > > sounds less

> > than

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > optimal, as

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > I

> > > > would prefer

> > > > > > to have

> > > > > > > > both my levels

> > > > > > > > > > > and my nuts

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > well

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > regulated at

> > > > > > all times.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Does

> > > > > > anyone know of

> > > > > > > > any studies or

> > > > > > > > > > > other

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > information I

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > could present

> > > > > > to my

> > > > > > > > doctor to persuade

> > > > > > > > > > > him to mix

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > these

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > meds?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Thanks!

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > CH

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > > > > >

> > ------------------------------------

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > >

> > > > > > Links

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > > >

> > > >

> >

ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'ââ\

‚¬Â¦Ãƒâ€šÃ‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚\

ÃÆ'‚ 

> > > > > > > >

> > > >

> >

ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'ââ\

‚¬Â¦Ãƒâ€šÃ‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚\

ÃÆ'‚ 

> > > > -fullfeatured

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > ------------------------------------

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> >

> > > > Links

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > >

> >

ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚Ã\

‚ 

> > > > > >

> >

ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚Ã\

‚ 

> > -fullfeatured

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > ------------------------------------

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > Links

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ 

> > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ 

-fullfeatured

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > ------------------------------------

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

[Guest guest]

And we are lucky to have you here. Seriously, it is a great comfort to be able

to chat about these matters with someone who is so knowledgeable and helpful.

Conversations with doctors are too formal and there's always a concern that if

you challenge them they will get pissy and deny you what you need. And they

don't always know what's best--not even the " good ones. "

I'm sorry to hear about your health concerns. I hope you're getting good care.

I recently stopped taking statin drugs after my total cholesterol came back at

124. I found lots of information on the web saying that low cholesterol can

actually be dangerous. I'll bring that up with my PCP when I see him next

month.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I talked

> > > > > > > > to my doc

> > > > > > > > > > recently about

> > > > > > > > > > > > > my

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > concerns that

> > > > > > my

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > testicles were

> > > > > > > > shrinking

> > > > > > > > > > shortly after

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > beginning

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > TRT.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > He

> > > > > > > > replied that he

> > > > > > > > > > does not mix

> > > > > > > > > > > > > TRT

> > with

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > HCG,

> > > > but

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > rather prefers

> > > > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > > > alternate

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > >

> >

them.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'‚Ãâ\

€šÃ‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ\

'…ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ\

'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢ââ€Å\

¡Ã‚¬Ã…¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ 

> > > > > > For

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > example, he

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > would implant

> > > > > > > > pellets

> > > > > > > > > > for 3 months and

> > > > > > > > > > > > > then

> > put

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > me

> > > > on HCG

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > for

> > > > > > 3

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > >

> >

months.ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'‚Ã\

ƒâ€šÃ‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'\

Æ'…ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢Ã\

ƒÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢âââ‚\

¬Å¡Ã‚¬Ã…¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ 

> > > > > > > > To me, this

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > sounds less

> > > > than

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > optimal, as

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > I

> > > > > > would prefer

> > > > > > > > to have

> > > > > > > > > > both my levels

> > > > > > > > > > > > > and

> > my nuts

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > well

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > regulated at

> > > > > > > > all times.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Does

> > > > > > > > anyone know of

> > > > > > > > > > any studies or

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > other

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > information I

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > could present

> > > > > > > > to my

> > > > > > > > > > doctor to persuade

> > > > > > > > > > > > > him

> > to mix

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > these

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > meds?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Thanks!

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > CH

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > ------------------------------------

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Links

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > >

> >

ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ\

¢ÃƒÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'â\

€¦ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢\

‚¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬\

Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ 

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > >

> >

ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'‚ÂÂÂ\

¢ÃƒÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'â\

€¦ÃÆ'‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢\

‚¬ÃÆ'…¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬\

Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ 

> > > > > > -fullfeatured

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > ------------------------------------

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > >

> > > > > > Links

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > > >

> > > >

> >

ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'ââ\

‚¬Â¦Ãƒâ€šÃ‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚\

ÃÆ'‚ 

> > > > > > > >

> > > >

> >

ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'†'ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â€šÂ¬ÃÆ'ââ\

‚¬Â¦Ãƒâ€šÃ‚¡ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚\

ÃÆ'‚ 

> > > > -fullfeatured

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > ------------------------------------

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> >

> > > > Links

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > >

> >

ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚Ã\

‚ 

> > > > > >

> >

ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚Ã\

‚ 

> > -fullfeatured

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > ------------------------------------

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > Links

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ 

> > > > ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚ 

-fullfeatured

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > ------------------------------------

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >