Re: Re: So what is too low?

[Guest guest]

If your Pituitary is not telling your Thyroid to make the Hormones by sending

enough TSH you end up with levels this low.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: Bstee <bstee@...>

> Subject: Re: So what is too low?

>

> Date: Sunday, May 16, 2010, 4:18 PM

> Yes, I had my thyroid tested most

> recently and the TSH was 0.17.  As I understand it the

> cut off for " normal " is .30  Thanks

>

>

> > >

> > > For year, many many years, I've been going to the

> Dr. and advising that I just can't get up and out of bed,

> have a hard time walking or even stading without losing

> energy.  I've requested Thyroid tests and it just

> confuses the Dr.  she says it says I am hyperthroid

> with all the symptoms of hypothyroid.  I have asked for

> other endocrinologic tests but for the lost part She just

> refills my cholesterol medication and sends me home.

> > >

> > > Now as part of our fertility testing I got my

> Testosterone tested, something I had asked about before but

> only the fertility doc ordered it for me.

> > >

> > > It just cam eback with this:

> > > Free Testosterone  44 / Reference levels 241

> - 827

> > > FSH           

>   <0.7 / Reference levels 1.6 - 8.0

> > > LH           

>    <0.2 / Reference levels 1.5 - 9.3

> > >

> > > Knowing my doctor she will say I had the blood

> drawn in the afternoon and it looks like they really should

> test in the AM as the result will be higher in the morning.

> So how much more will be added by morning testing? 

> Will that add 200 points to make me normal?

> > >

> > > Forgot to add I am 42 years old.  And other

> than horrible cholesterol and now Triglycerides as well I am

> in decent health.  I just can't seem to get moving so

> does this have anything to with energy or just ED? 

> While I have zero sex drive (my poor wife), I have no

> problem with my end of the bargain which makes no sense?

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

I can see how a Dr. not up on Thyroid would say he is Hyper most people on

Thyroid meds drive down the TSH and a lot of Dr.'s that dose meds by TSH will

tell someone with levels that low they are Hyper.

Is this wrong I think so one can't go by TSH to dose meds. Yet when I went on

HGH my Thyroid went Hyper but I felt dam bad much like high levels of Estradiol

make me feel. But my temps avg. went up from 98.4 on 4 grains of Armour to 99.2

my BP shot up and my heart rate. I started having shortness of breath and Panic

Attacks. My TSH was .01 my Free T4 was not bad it has always been low. But my

Free T3 was over the top.

I had to stop taking HGH my hands and feet lost there feeling and I was holding

a ton of water. I am still off all Thyroid meds and feel OK I will see new labs

this Thur. I read some time ago Dr.'s will take people off Thyroid meds to see

how they do and a lot of them find they are fine again.

In his case with a TSH this low it can mean his Pituitary is not working.

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/tsh-why-its-useless/

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: canthavetoomanytoys <no_reply >

> Subject: Re: So what is too low?

>

> Date: Sunday, May 16, 2010, 6:35 PM

> You lost me!

> How did the doctor make a diagnosis of hyperthyroid?

> To start you have a very low TSH which would suggest that

> there is very

> little demand, thus production of T4.  Where is the

> hyper-levels coming

> from?

> Were T4 and T3 tests done, preferably free T4 and free T3?

> Post what you got.

> If these tests were not done, you need them done and/or

> another doctor.

>

> Testosterone is likely too low even for the

> afternoon.  What was total

> number?  You mention cholesterol meds.... what are you

> taking/how much

> and what are the lipid numbers?  You don't want to be

> driving

> cholesterol too low when you have hormone issues to start.

> Post everything you got with dates and someone can help

> sort this out...

>

>

>

>

> > > >

> > > > For year, many many years, I've been going

> to the Dr. and advising

> that I just can't get up and out of bed, have a hard time

> walking or

> even stading without losing energy.  I've requested

> Thyroid tests and it

> just confuses the Dr.  she says it says I am

> hyperthroid with all the

> symptoms of hypothyroid.  I have asked for other

> endocrinologic tests

> but for the lost part She just refills my cholesterol

> medication and

> sends me home.

> > > >

> > > > Now as part of our fertility testing I got

> my Testosterone tested,

> something I had asked about before but only the fertility

> doc ordered it

> for me.

> > > >

> > > > It just cam eback with this:

> > > > Free Testosterone  44 / Reference

> levels 241 - 827

> > > > FSH           

>   <0.7 / Reference levels 1.6 - 8.0

> > > > LH           

>    <0.2 / Reference levels 1.5 - 9.3

> > > >

> > > > Knowing my doctor she will say I had the

> blood drawn in the

> afternoon and it looks like they really should test in the

> AM as the

> result will be higher in the morning. So how much more will

> be added by

> morning testing?  Will that add 200 points to make me

> normal?

> > > >

> > > > Forgot to add I am 42 years old.  And

> other than horrible

> cholesterol and now Triglycerides as well I am in decent

> health.  I just

> can't seem to get moving so does this have anything to with

> energy or

> just ED?  While I have zero sex drive (my poor wife),

> I have no problem

> with my end of the bargain which makes no sense?

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

You said your Iron levels are low I tested low when I first got sick 28 yrs a

go. Dr.'s tested me to see if I was bleeding and told me it's not a problem 4

yrs ago I went on iron pills and wow did I start feeling better. It took some

time to get m levels up and because I am Hypopituitary I need Iron pills for

life. Here are the test my Dr. dose for my iron every 8 weeks and I am told to

stop iron pills 5 days before doing them labs.

Total Iron

Iron Binding Capacity

Iron % Saturation

Ferritin

B-12

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: Bstee <bstee@...>

> Subject: Re: So what is too low?

>

> Date: Sunday, May 16, 2010, 9:09 PM

> Yes, Hyperthyroid was the diagnosis,

> though I have been telling them for three years that

> something has to be wrong, and not too much thyroid.  I

> certainly am not losing weight, it is coming on fast and

> furious.  Added 40 pounds in three years.  At 210

> now and would love to do something about it but just can't

> even think about starting a program when walking is a

> chore. 

>

> I have thyroid tests that generally have come back between

> 0.23 and 0.17.  Most of the time it stays around

> 0.17.  And while that is really low, the doc did not

> want to do anything because this is hyperthroid.  The

> reason is TSH stimulates the throid and if the TSH is really

> low it is assumed that the actual throid is above normal

> because your stimulating hormone shuts off.  It is an

> inverse relationship.  But because I would insist that

> my symptoms were the opposite of this test, cold, lythargic,

> gaining weight, sleepy, tired, the doc said there was no

> reason to do anything since I clearly had plenty of

> Thyroid. 

>

> I went to a walk in clinic a couple of months ago and she

> ordered a T3 and T4 test but I don't know what those results

> are.  I do know that I have been on Vytorin for close

> to 5 years and other statins for many years before

> that.  My total cholesterol is now 178 which I

> understand is good.  But this doc was concerned because

> my trglycerides were 490.

>

> So as it stands I have low TSH, but the last I knew my

> thyroid itself was actually ok.  Why I am here now is

> this crazy test result on Testosterone (44), and other

> associated scores FSH and LH.  The only other unusual

> numbers I have are that I seem to be constantly

> anemic.  The doc notes " that is odd for a male " and

> then just lets it go. 

>

> As an aside my clinic is actually Mayo in ville but

> my Doctor is not the type of Doc you expect for a " Mayo "

> type clinic.  I believe she may have a lot to learn so

> maybe I just need to find another doctor if this is as

> complex as it sounds.  I am betting she will not want

> anything to do with this. 

>

>

> > > > >

> > > > > For year, many many years, I've been

> going to the Dr. and advising

> > that I just can't get up and out of bed, have a hard

> time walking or

> > even stading without losing energy.  I've

> requested Thyroid tests and it

> > just confuses the Dr.  she says it says I am

> hyperthroid with all the

> > symptoms of hypothyroid.  I have asked for other

> endocrinologic tests

> > but for the lost part She just refills my cholesterol

> medication and

> > sends me home.

> > > > >

> > > > > Now as part of our fertility testing I

> got my Testosterone tested,

> > something I had asked about before but only the

> fertility doc ordered it

> > for me.

> > > > >

> > > > > It just cam eback with this:

> > > > > Free Testosterone  44 / Reference

> levels 241 - 827

> > > > > FSH         

>     <0.7 / Reference levels 1.6 - 8.0

> > > > > LH         

>      <0.2 / Reference levels 1.5 -

> 9.3

> > > > >

> > > > > Knowing my doctor she will say I had

> the blood drawn in the

> > afternoon and it looks like they really should test in

> the AM as the

> > result will be higher in the morning. So how much more

> will be added by

> > morning testing?  Will that add 200 points to

> make me normal?

> > > > >

> > > > > Forgot to add I am 42 years old. 

> And other than horrible

> > cholesterol and now Triglycerides as well I am in

> decent health.  I just

> > can't seem to get moving so does this have anything to

> with energy or

> > just ED?  While I have zero sex drive (my poor

> wife), I have no problem

> > with my end of the bargain which makes no sense?

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

It took me 23 yrs to figure out my problem was from my auto accident and the

head injury I had. All it was is a goose egg on the top front of my head.

It was a few months after this I started to get sick I told every Dr. I seen I

hit my head this looked at it and that was all they did. Now today we know it

was the hit to my head that damaged my Pituitary.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: Bstee <bstee@...>

> Subject: Re: So what is too low?

>

> Date: Monday, May 17, 2010, 12:31 PM

> Thanks for all the input.  I

> think the very low TSH (which I knew about for a long time)

> and now the unexpected testostorone level of 44 which is

> like 15% of the lowest level in the range and low FSH and

> low LH leads me to think I need to see an

> endorenologist.  I will call today and update as soon

> as I know something.  One other thing_ while I've been

> fighting the  fatigue for some time I did have an auto

> accident three months ago and hit my head but not bad enough

> to do damage I don't think.  Guessing it is just a long

> term issue.

>

>

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > For year, many many years,

> I've been

> > > going to the Dr. and advising

> > > > that I just can't get up and out of bed,

> have a hard

> > > time walking or

> > > > even stading without losing energy.  I've

> > > requested Thyroid tests and it

> > > > just confuses the Dr.  she says it says I

> am

> > > hyperthroid with all the

> > > > symptoms of hypothyroid.  I have asked for

> other

> > > endocrinologic tests

> > > > but for the lost part She just refills my

> cholesterol

> > > medication and

> > > > sends me home.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Now as part of our fertility

> testing I

> > > got my Testosterone tested,

> > > > something I had asked about before but only

> the

> > > fertility doc ordered it

> > > > for me.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > It just cam eback with this:

> > > > > > > Free Testosterone  44 /

> Reference

> > > levels 241 - 827

> > > > > > > FSH         

> > >     <0.7 / Reference levels 1.6 - 8.0

> > > > > > > LH         

> > >      <0.2 / Reference levels 1.5 -

> > > 9.3

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Knowing my doctor she will

> say I had

> > > the blood drawn in the

> > > > afternoon and it looks like they really

> should test in

> > > the AM as the

> > > > result will be higher in the morning. So how

> much more

> > > will be added by

> > > > morning testing?  Will that add 200 points

> to

> > > make me normal?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Forgot to add I am 42 years

> old. 

> > > And other than horrible

> > > > cholesterol and now Triglycerides as well I

> am in

> > > decent health.  I just

> > > > can't seem to get moving so does this have

> anything to

> > > with energy or

> > > > just ED?  While I have zero sex drive (my

> poor

> > > wife), I have no problem

> > > > with my end of the bargain which makes no

> sense?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ------------------------------------

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

If you live in FLorida do go and see http://www.jeffreydach.com/

Seeing him is like seeing Dr. in MI.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: Bstee <bstee@...>

> Subject: Re: So what is too low?

>

> Date: Monday, May 17, 2010, 5:40 PM

> No that's correct I am not on any

> throid or any other related meds.  I am on two daily

> meds.  One is my cholesterol med which is Vytorin it

> has worked great as my cholesterol drops off a cliff while I

> am on it, but my triglycerides are pretty bad.  The

> second is Topamax for migraines which I can't imagine have

> an impact. 

>

> I just called my local Mayo (the FLorida Mayo is far

> different than Minn though) and advised I need to see the

> endo based on these Testosterone numbers of 44 and of course

> I was told that I need to see my regular doc first and if

> approved (I am sure after she orders more blood worjk

> thrhough their labs) then they may do the consult. 

>

> I will give this a try and see how it works.  All

> things considered you all make a strong case for going to

> Michigan.  Seems strange to go all that way but hey if

> there is a doc anywhere that fix me and get me going again

> I'll but a plane ticket. 

>

>

> > >

> > > Thanks for all the input.  I think the very

> low TSH (which I knew about for a long time) and now the

> unexpected testostorone level of 44 which is like 15% of the

> lowest level in the range and low FSH and low LH leads me to

> think I need to see an endorenologist.  I will call

> today and update as soon as I know something.  One

> other thing_ while I've been fighting the  fatigue for

> some time I did have an auto accident three months ago and

> hit my head but not bad enough to do damage I don't

> think.  Guessing it is just a long term issue.

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

I don't know about seeing a Different Dr. you should get an MRI done for your

Pituitary with and without contrast. If you have a Problem like a tumor of it's

size anything wrong you will need to check all your hormones. It's rare to be

Cancer but needs to be treated right. I went 23 yrs never feeling all that good

on TRT because I was told I am Primary meaning my Testis don't make T.

I am Hypopituitary do to a head injury from an Auto Accident some 27 yrs a go.

I now treat my low even low normal Hormones Testosterone with shots of Test C

80mgs every 3 days and 250 IU's of HCG the day before my Test C shot. I take

Arimidex to keep my Estradiol levels down have done good taking .25 mgs every 2

to 3 days. I treat my low Cortisol levels with Cortef HC taking 10 mgs morning,

5mgs mid morning, 10 mgs with lunch and 5 mgs at dinner time.

My Adrenals work my Pituitary dose not tell them to work. I treated my Thyroid

with Armour was on 4 grains/ day. I am on Iron pills for low Ferritin levels. I

take .1mgs of Florinef for low Aldosterone levels my body dumps my sodium and I

add 1/2 tsp full of Sea Salt to my water with this med. 3 x's a day. And I am

on Growth Hormone.

Now this is me not everyone with a Pituitary Problem has all them problems but

you need them checked.

A good place to read about his is in this link for Hypopituitary you can't post

there but you can read the links there and old posts and learn.

http://forums.realthyroidhelp.com/viewforum.php?f=12 & sid=cc3d3a10380afcca19bacd6\

c7f0c1c1e

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: Bstee <bstee@...>

> Subject: Re: So what is too low?

>

> Date: Thursday, May 20, 2010, 7:13 PM

> Heading it to the Doc for the first

> time with results in hand tomorrow.  She is the one

> that has fought me on thyroid issues for three years. 

> I found my tests, we have done them annually, it was a TSH

> of 0.23, then 0.27 and earlier this year it was 0.17 so it

> seems pretty consistently low but as I noted she insists

> this means hyper not hypo thyroid as the TSH drops when you

> get too much tyroid in your blood.  I was even on

> Provigil because I couldn't stay awake but finally gave up

> on that and just drink 20+ cups of joe a day.  Now I

> have my ultra low Testo results (44) and low FSH and low LH

> coupled with very high trglycerides (400+) she simply has to

> do something.  Is there anything I should ask for test

> wise?  By all accounts I have a pituitary issue (I

> found an old brain scan from 2001 that said I had " empty

> cella syndrome " ?  So should I just ask for a referral

> or suggest any particular test?  SOunds like I need

> thyroid tests t4 and t3 but are there any other testosterone

> tests i should ask for since I have is the total

> number?  I assume a free number will be basically

> unmeasurable.  Any thoughts are appreciated. 

>

>

> > > > > >

> > > > > > For year, many many years, I've

> been going

> > > to the Dr. and advising

> > > that I just can't get up and out of bed, have a

> hard time

> > > walking or

> > > even stading without losing energy.  I've

> requested

> > > Thyroid tests and it

> > > just confuses the Dr.  she says it says I am

> > > hyperthroid with all the

> > > symptoms of hypothyroid.  I have asked for

> other

> > > endocrinologic tests

> > > but for the lost part She just refills my

> cholesterol

> > > medication and

> > > sends me home.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Now as part of our fertility

> testing I got

> > > my Testosterone tested,

> > > something I had asked about before but only the

> fertility

> > > doc ordered it

> > > for me.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It just cam eback with this:

> > > > > > Free Testosterone  44 /

> Reference

> > > levels 241 - 827

> > > > > > FSH           

> > >   <0.7 / Reference levels 1.6 - 8.0

> > > > > > LH           

> > >    <0.2 / Reference levels 1.5 - 9.3

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Knowing my doctor she will say I

> had the

> > > blood drawn in the

> > > afternoon and it looks like they really should

> test in the

> > > AM as the

> > > result will be higher in the morning. So how much

> more will

> > > be added by

> > > morning testing?  Will that add 200 points to

> make me

> > > normal?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Forgot to add I am 42 years old. 

> And

> > > other than horrible

> > > cholesterol and now Triglycerides as well I am in

> decent

> > > health.  I just

> > > can't seem to get moving so does this have

> anything to with

> > > energy or

> > > just ED?  While I have zero sex drive (my poor

> wife),

> > > I have no problem

> > > with my end of the bargain which makes no sense?

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ------------------------------------

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

And I hate to tell you this but she is not up on low T in men and sending you to

an Endo all they are good for is treating Diabetes. All Dr.'s not up on male

hormones think Endo's are and they are not they are the worst Dr.'s to see for

this problem. Your labs are good Mayo is not even good at male Hormones I have

talked to so many men that too the trip to Mayo for nothing.

All you can do not is call some Compounding Pharmacy like this one.

http://www.collegepharmacy.com/menshealth/andropause.asp

And ask for the name of a Dr. in your area that uses the Compounded Testosterone

with luck you will find one. Do go to the files section and read " Finding a New

Male Hormone Dr. " then make calls and ask questions like how many men dose the

Dr. treat for low Testosterone ask if he tests to see why one is low and if he

check for high Estradiol. Will he use Arimidex to get high Estradiol levels

down and if one is Secondary will he use HCG. You will know when you have a

good one.

Or you need to fly out and see Dr. at www.allthingsmale.com or find a Dr.

that will work with him over the phone to test and treat you.

Men don't get tested for low T because of ED they get checked because the feel

dam sick with feelings of Depression, Fatigue, bone loss, sore joints and

muscles the list goes on.

http://www.griffinmedical.com/Low_Testosterone_equals_low_quality_life.htm

http://men.webmd.com/news/20070605/low-testosterone-may-up-male-mortality?ecd=wn\

l_men_072407

I don't know where you live but we have a list of Dr.'s men here see in the

Database section at the home page on the left side.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: Bstee <bstee@...>

> Subject: Re: So what is too low?

>

> Date: Saturday, May 22, 2010, 1:10 PM

> Well no real shock here.  I went

> in to see the Doc, took my results with the low

> Testosterone, FSH and LH rsults.  She asked me what my

> concerns were.  I told here I have been coming in for

> three years about my thyroid and it has tested low but she

> has told me just to " keep any eye on it " .  I have been

> on Provigil for close to five years for excessive daytime

> sleepiness but finally gave up on that because I just didn't

> feel it worked and now I have these results that show I have

> extraordinailly low testosorone results so that is why I am

> there.  She resonded with...well really the only reason

> to treat testosterone is for ED and since I've nver

> complained about that there really is no reason to worry,

> some people just have low numbers (I knew it).  I said

> these numbers are clearly lower than anything I can find as

> I have read about this, and she responded that " The Mayo

> Clinic uses different reference numbers so these numbers are

> useless " .  I asked her to just run them again using

> Mayo's testing, but she refused.  She finally said that

> she would do the referral to an endo and those guys are

> really good.  She further pointed out that you have to

> test other things to see if it primary or secondary and I

> showed her how the results indicate secondary, she she said

> that she was not sure about that, it takes an endo to

> interpret the numbers.  So I got my referral.  The

> stupid thing was she would not order the Testosterone,

> Thyroid or any other tests as she said only an endo should

> order hormone tests....so I guess I am making minor

> headway. 

>

>

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > For year, many many

> years, I've

> > > been going

> > > > > to the Dr. and advising

> > > > > that I just can't get up and out of

> bed, have a

> > > hard time

> > > > > walking or

> > > > > even stading without losing energy. 

> I've

> > > requested

> > > > > Thyroid tests and it

> > > > > just confuses the Dr.  she says it

> says I am

> > > > > hyperthroid with all the

> > > > > symptoms of hypothyroid.  I have asked

> for

> > > other

> > > > > endocrinologic tests

> > > > > but for the lost part She just refills

> my

> > > cholesterol

> > > > > medication and

> > > > > sends me home.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Now as part of our

> fertility

> > > testing I got

> > > > > my Testosterone tested,

> > > > > something I had asked about before but

> only the

> > > fertility

> > > > > doc ordered it

> > > > > for me.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > It just cam eback with

> this:

> > > > > > > > Free Testosterone  44

> /

> > > Reference

> > > > > levels 241 - 827

> > > > > > > > FSH           

> > > > >   <0.7 / Reference levels 1.6 -

> 8.0

> > > > > > > > LH           

> > > > >    <0.2 / Reference levels 1.5 -

> 9.3

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Knowing my doctor she

> will say I

> > > had the

> > > > > blood drawn in the

> > > > > afternoon and it looks like they really

> should

> > > test in the

> > > > > AM as the

> > > > > result will be higher in the morning.

> So how much

> > > more will

> > > > > be added by

> > > > > morning testing?  Will that add 200

> points to

> > > make me

> > > > > normal?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Forgot to add I am 42

> years old. 

> > > And

> > > > > other than horrible

> > > > > cholesterol and now Triglycerides as

> well I am in

> > > decent

> > > > > health.  I just

> > > > > can't seem to get moving so does this

> have

> > > anything to with

> > > > > energy or

> > > > > just ED?  While I have zero sex drive

> (my poor

> > > wife),

> > > > > I have no problem

> > > > > with my end of the bargain which makes

> no sense?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > ------------------------------------

> > > > >

> > > > >

[Guest guest]

I am shocked you found a good Endo he shounds like a keeper and with your sleep

apnea if you have it it can lower your Testosteron levels. Many men use a

machine to help them with this and are here but I don't know of anyone that got

there T levels back up on one unless they did and felt like they did not need to

post it.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: Bstee <bstee@...>

> Subject: Re: So what is too low?

>

> Date: Monday, May 24, 2010, 9:07 AM

> Just left the endocrenologist. 

> Actually it went ok I think.  He seemed to know what he

> was doing.  Sugeested no TST as we are going throug

> fertilty and it can drop sperm count.  He said you

> don't want to raise the level you want to find out the cause

> so he ordered a bunch of thyroid, cortisol, growth hormone,

> free tst and PSA test and recommended a brain mri of the

> pituitary. 

> The odd one was he said he suspects the issue is sleep

> apnea.  He said the most common cause of low

> testosterone is sleep apnea.  I guess that is better

> than a lifetime of drugs.  Still seems like a stretch

> given myblabs. 

>

>

>

> >

> > You surely need another doc,......no question about

> it.

> > Even mine which is a cardiologist is testing me far

> more than yours is.

> >

> > Quit playing, and find someone that knows a little

> about TRT.

> > Your current doc is a joke IMHO.

> > Best wishes, as we are all in the same boat.

> >

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

My wife had sleep apnea and could not use the apnea machine. She lost 40lbs and

it went away. There is a new in office sugary that works for some on this.

Before she lost the weight she was looking into this.

http://www.restoremedical.com/pillar-procedure/

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: Bstee <bstee@...>

> Subject: Re: So what is too low?

>

> Date: Monday, May 24, 2010, 10:27 AM

> Seriously!  This is a giant

> chicken and egg game it seems.  Everything either

> causes or is caused by something else and you never find out

> what starts the whole thing.  This was actually the

> first I'd heard the sleep apnea caused low 3estosterone idea

> and this endo said " far and away " it is the number one

> cause. 

>

> I did pick up a little of the idea that if the reason I

> found my low T was in fertility testing and I have a good

> sperm count than there really is not an issue.  I said

> well other than the weight gain, fatigue, loss of dive,

> sleepiness, dry skin, poor sleep, general pain issues and

> others...but yes you are right my boys can swim...with that

> he ordered a bunch of tests...I have found passivie approach

> to  to your health issues does not work. 

>

>

> > > >

> > > > You surely need another doc,......no

> question about it.

> > > > Even mine which is a cardiologist is testing

> me far more than yours is.

> > > >

> > > > Quit playing, and find someone that knows a

> little about TRT.

> > > > Your current doc is a joke IMHO.

> > > > Best wishes, as we are all in the same

> boat.

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Are there more Drs at ATM besides Dr ?

Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

Re: So what is too low?

Being passive will get you no where except maybe a pill for depression. When it

comes to hormone care, you are your best advocate.... so keep reading and

learning and stay several steps ahead of the doctor.

When I first started on my journey I was counseled by a wise person in ATM who

related that hormone problems are rarely isolated (to paraphrase). They were

right of course as I now find that T, E, thyroid, and Cortisol all need

adjustment.... probably not through yet.

The advice is to work on at least the most significant hormone imbalance first

but realize there is a interrelationship or cascade effect. GH and Cortisol are

high in the chain but even boosting Testosterone can have benefits if you can't

tackle anything else first.... that's why some guys feel ok, at least initially,

by boosting T.

Sleep apnea (OSA) can cause issues but depending upon the severity may not be

the end game. Do you know that you snore? Do you wake up startled as if some

deep snoring/lack of breath woke you? I know it is difficult to pinpoint on

your own so ask the significant other some questions too.

I forget how old you are but remember that multiple hormone declines are not

uncommon as we age and don't be surprised that these changes may be happening at

30. By the time you are 50 it is almost a sure thing that hormones have seen a

significant decline. Only the hardiest males seem to approach 50 without some

issues.

> > > >

> > > > You surely need another doc,......no question about it.

> > > > Even mine which is a cardiologist is testing me far more than yours is.

> > > >

> > > > Quit playing, and find someone that knows a little about TRT.

> > > > Your current doc is a joke IMHO.

> > > > Best wishes, as we are all in the same boat.

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Just go see Dr . You won't regret it.

Your health is more important than anything else.

Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

Re: So what is too low?

I seem to be blocked at every turn. I saw the endocrinologist 10 days ago to

try to figure out why my testosterone tevels are 10% of what they should be

(44), why my TSH is in the ground 0.17 why my FSH and LH and super low, why I am

chronically anemic yet have too much triglyceride in my blood. I also needed a

shot of cortisone because I was in an accident three months ago and am in pain.

He ordered the blood tests but i've heard nothing. He ordered an MRI that

appears to have been stopped by insurance because I just had one on a shoulder

after the accident and seem to viewed as too expensive. The doc would not

prescribe testostorone though he acknowledged at these levels that would be the

first thing to do. The reason is we are treating a fertility issue and it

sounds like adding testosterone decreases sperm count. Not only that I am stuck

in pain as I can't get a shot of cortisone until all is figured out as it will

throw off all testing so I am just stuck in pain, tired, fatigued, not knowing

and no treatment. I went and bought some DHEA about three days ago and almost

think I feel something but I also added B vitamins and calcium. I don't even

know what DHEA does. I am just looking for anything at this point. Can it help

to raise testosterone in someone that is super low?

>

> For year, many many years, I've been going to the Dr. and advising that I just

can't get up and out of bed, have a hard time walking or even stading without

losing energy. I've requested Thyroid tests and it just confuses the Dr. she

says it says I am hyperthroid with all the symptoms of hypothyroid. I have

asked for other endocrinologic tests but for the lost part She just refills my

cholesterol medication and sends me home.

>

> Now as part of our fertility testing I got my Testosterone tested, something I

had asked about before but only the fertility doc ordered it for me.

>

> It just cam eback with this:

> Free Testosterone 44 / Reference levels 241 - 827

> FSH <0.7 / Reference levels 1.6 - 8.0

> LH <0.2 / Reference levels 1.5 - 9.3

>

> Knowing my doctor she will say I had the blood drawn in the afternoon and it

looks like they really should test in the AM as the result will be higher in the

morning. So how much more will be added by morning testing? Will that add 200

points to make me normal?

>

> Forgot to add I am 42 years old. And other than horrible cholesterol and now

Triglycerides as well I am in decent health. I just can't seem to get moving so

does this have anything to with energy or just ED? While I have zero sex drive

(my poor wife), I have no problem with my end of the bargain which makes no

sense?

>

[Guest guest]

Bstee man I feel your pain Endo's and Uro's are not good Dr.'s for this problem

in the USA. But are dam good in other countrys. You can get your T levels up

doing HCG 100 IU's per day and still make a baby.

If your not on thyroid meds and your TSH is this low it's a Pituitary Problem

you need an MRI to rule out a tumor. They are not cancer so don't get upset I

said this. What do you take for your Iron levels I need Iron pills for life we

don't have a good reasion for my levels being low. But I do feel much better on

Iron pills I take 2 of them a day.

http://www.walgreens.com/store/catalog/Minerals/Ferrous-Fumarate-324-mg/ID=prod1\

194792 & navCount=0 & navAction=push-product

It took about 3 months to get my levels back up.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: Bstee <bstee@...>

> Subject: Re: So what is too low?

>

> Date: Wednesday, June 2, 2010, 12:49 PM

> I seem to be blocked at every

> turn.  I saw the endocrinologist 10 days ago to try to

> figure out why my testosterone tevels are 10% of what they

> should be (44), why my TSH is in the ground 0.17 why my FSH

> and LH and super low, why I am chronically anemic yet have

> too much triglyceride in my blood.   I also

> needed a shot of cortisone because I was in an accident

> three months ago and am in pain.  He ordered the blood

> tests but i've heard nothing.  He ordered an MRI that

> appears to have been stopped by insurance because I just had

> one on a shoulder after the accident and seem to viewed as

> too expensive.  The doc would not prescribe

> testostorone though he acknowledged at these levels that

> would be the first thing to do.  The reason is we are

> treating a fertility issue and it sounds like adding

> testosterone decreases sperm count.  Not only that I am

> stuck in pain as I can't get a shot of cortisone until all

> is figured out as it will throw off all testing so I am just

> stuck in pain, tired, fatigued, not knowing and no

> treatment.  I went and bought some DHEA about three

> days ago and almost think I feel something but I also added

> B vitamins and calcium.  I don't even know what DHEA

> does.  I am just looking for anything at this

> point.  Can it help to raise testosterone in someone

> that is super low?

>

>

> >

> > For year, many many years, I've been going to the Dr.

> and advising that I just can't get up and out of bed, have a

> hard time walking or even stading without losing

> energy.  I've requested Thyroid tests and it just

> confuses the Dr.  she says it says I am hyperthroid

> with all the symptoms of hypothyroid.  I have asked for

> other endocrinologic tests but for the lost part She just

> refills my cholesterol medication and sends me home.

> >

> > Now as part of our fertility testing I got my

> Testosterone tested, something I had asked about before but

> only the fertility doc ordered it for me.

> >

> > It just cam eback with this:

> > Free Testosterone  44 / Reference levels 241 -

> 827

> > FSH             

> <0.7 / Reference levels 1.6 - 8.0

> > LH           

>    <0.2 / Reference levels 1.5 - 9.3

> >

> > Knowing my doctor she will say I had the blood drawn

> in the afternoon and it looks like they really should test

> in the AM as the result will be higher in the morning. So

> how much more will be added by morning testing?  Will

> that add 200 points to make me normal?

> >

> > Forgot to add I am 42 years old.  And other than

> horrible cholesterol and now Triglycerides as well I am in

> decent health.  I just can't seem to get moving so does

> this have anything to with energy or just ED?  While I

> have zero sex drive (my poor wife), I have no problem with

> my end of the bargain which makes no sense?

> >

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Bill I am built about the same way I weigh 300 lbs 5'11 " tall but I am dam big

boned. I look dam good at 250 lbs. At 200 lbs I don't feel right to thin.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: Billjustin <billjustin@...>

> Subject: Re: So what is too low?

>

> Date: Wednesday, June 2, 2010, 1:37 PM

>

> My experience with an endocronologist was equally dismal,

> she asked about 3 times if i had ever used steroids, she

> also suggested looking into the possibility of gastric

> bypass surgery.  My bodyfat is maybe 25%, but i weigh

> 400 lbs and the " body mass index " puts me into the morbidly

> obese category.  I can promise you, I am not morbidly

> obese.  She eventually refered me to a urologist,

> because of the erectile dysfunction.

>

> Although he doesn't know what he is doing as far as modern

> hormone replacement therapy, he is willing to work with

> me.  he also orders labs for me to send to Dr.

> Crisler.  I am also dealing with fertility, and the HCG

> is at least stopping the decrease in fertility.  I am

> down to 34 million sperm that look fairly normal, before I

> started I had 70 million.  I have been on HCG for over

> a month now, and testosterone for 5 months.

>

> it takes 90 days for the sperm to come back, so I am

> hopefull.  I am also not taking any high blood pressure

> meds, which hurt fertility and sex drive.

>

> I don't know anything about thyroid, and it seems like

> these are not my problems.  My Andropause is a result

> of genetics, multiple food allergies, sleep apnea, and bad

> reactions to high blood pressure meds.

>

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Be sure your not going on too much HCG for men with a pituitary problem or low

levels of LH and FSH doing 100 to 125 IU's a day will get your levels up. But

Dr. says doing more then 500 IU's a day can Desensitize your Testis to HCG

and you can become Primary.

Men using HCG for fertility do a high dose of HCG for a shot time be careful.

Go to www.allthingsmale.com and read TRT: A Recipe for Success and the HCG

Update.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: Bstee <bstee@...>

> Subject: Re: So what is too low?

>

> Date: Tuesday, June 29, 2010, 2:05 PM

>

> My MRI was clear but my labs were still a mess.  Total

> T rose slightly to 120 but that is less than half the lowest

> level, bioavailable was 54 and the bottom was 61 so clearly

> I still have an issue.  That endo refused to treat as I

> am moving in the next few weeks and suggested a sleep study

> before any medication.  I advised I was at risk even

> driving because I am close to narcolepsey I am so

> tired.  He said that it is no wonder with a total t

> number in the double digets but left it at that.

>

> So I went today to my wife's baby doctor (fertilty

> specilist/endo)  he said I clearly need to be on HCG

> about 1200 27 week.  Also wants more tests and sleep

> study but said I should begin feeling better within days on

> the HCG.  Thank goodness I think I found a doctor...and

> I think he's kind of a gynocologist.....not really but

> close....hey whatever it takes

>

>

> > >

> > > You surely need another doc,......no question

> about it.

> > > Even mine which is a cardiologist is testing me

> far more than yours is.

> > >

> > > Quit playing, and find someone that knows a

> little about TRT.

> > > Your current doc is a joke IMHO.

> > > Best wishes, as we are all in the same boat.

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

I have talked to men doing HCG this way and after a time it stopped working

because there testis became desenatize to the HCG and they became Primary.

I am not a Dr. when I went on HCG I was doing Depo T shots 150 mgs my Dr. with

the help of Dr. put me on HCG 500 IU's 3x's a week this is 1500 IU's /

week. After my 15th shot we did labs my levels for Total T went from 600 1200 I

was told I am Primary for 23 yrs now we knew I was Secondary and Hypopituitary.

After a time I lowered the dose and my levels stayed about the same. I lowered

the dose because my Estradiol levels shot why up on this much HCG if your testis

can handle that high dose it will convert into Estradiol as least this is what

it did to me.

I can't tell you what to do but I would if I were you I would not wait I would

mix your wife's HCG up and start taking it. It's not like your doing some thing

your Dr. did not say to do. Some men do a bigger shot up to 500 IU's 3 x's a

week others do 100 to 200 IU's everyday.

You can go on HCG not get approved for it and buy your own from the ADC most do

this anyway because they can't find it. But like Dr. says it's not good to

do more then 500 IU's a day.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: Bstee <bstee@...>

> Subject: Re: So what is too low?

>

> Date: Tuesday, June 29, 2010, 10:47 PM

> Thanks for the info.  It sounds

> like I may be planning for a bit high level of HCG.  I

> am not sure about a daily dose but but he said that I would

> likely need about 1200 2-3 times a week.  I am guessing

> it is closer to the 1200 2xweek as he said a vial of

> 10,000i.u. would be monthly supply.  That should be

> about 2400 for 7 days or just over 300 per day I

> guess.  Sounds high but not terrible.

>

> It looks like a lot of folks are taking HCG and

> Testosterone both and I will not.  In fact he said

> there is absolutely no way he would give me testosterone as

> it would likely cause me to become primary as I am currently

> secondary with low LH and FSH and still have great sperm

> count.  But I guess if you give TST it goes in the

> tank...So I am counting on the HCG.

>

> I have to tell I am tempted...It may take up to two weeks

> to get my prescription approved and sent by my insurance

> company.  I am so looking forward to this as I have the

> worst Testosterone numbers these docs have seen and I have

> felt lousey for so long.  I have been on Provigil, B12

> shots, mega coffee, everything to overcome this and I have a

> script now to overcome it.  Here is the crazy thing, my

> wife just got here script for HCG delivered yesterday and

> she is not going to take it this month (fertility).  I

> would so love to take it to get started.  The doc told

> me I would get the same package but would be injecting a

> smaller amount.  So my " cure " is sitting in the house,

> but I still have to wait a few weeks until mine shows

> up.  Of course I will wait until mine shows up...but I

> really can't wait to feel better.

>

>

> >

> > Be sure your not going on too much HCG for men with a

> pituitary problem or low levels of LH and FSH doing 100 to

> 125 IU's a day will get your levels up.  But Dr.

> says doing more then 500 IU's a day can Desensitize your

> Testis to HCG and you can become Primary.

> >

> > Men using HCG for fertility do a high dose of HCG for

> a shot time be careful.

> >

> > Go to www.allthingsmale.com and read TRT: A Recipe for

> Success and the HCG Update.

> >

> > Co-Moderator

> > Phil

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Here is a copy of a post at Dr. 's I think you will be happy to read this.

It's from this link.

http://www.musclechatroom.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14326

====================================================

So much for TRT resulting in no sperm..... Might need a vasectomy now

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Been on TRT with hcg for about 2 years now & thought I was pretty much sterile

based on what I've been reading here and about.

I was wrong.

A recent semen test revealed something like 175 million of healthy sperm (60-150

range).

Guess I might have to consider a vasectomy, even though I am vehemently opposed

to it for mostly illogical reasons. My wife is now closer to 50 than 40, which I

hear doesn't make her a good candidate for the pill.

Odd that so much else is " off " but this......

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: Billjustin <billjustin@...>

> Subject: Re: So what is too low?

>

> Date: Wednesday, June 30, 2010, 6:16 PM

>

>

> Can you list what medications you are on for cholestorol,

> high blood pressure and whatever else your doctor has you

> on?  The reason why I am asking this is there is a

> chance that one of your meds is making your testosterone

> levels so low, and it may be worth thinking about tapering

> off some of the meds to see what happens.  I had a

> reaction to hydrocorathiazide, which is a water pill.

>

> I am also trying to make a baby, I went on testosterone

> because I also could not have penetrative sex, so my

> reasoning was to get at least to the point where its

> possible, and then deal with the sperm count.

>

> For the first few months I tried to be on hcg, but it

> increases my uric acid and makes gout likely in me.  My

> sperm count is down to low normal.  I have figured out

> how to balance out the uric acid, so I am on hcg

> consistently.  Once my wife gets pregnant, I am going

> to reduce my dose to a very low amount.  the

> testosterone works really well with me, and I look forward

> to being on mostly the test, because hcg also makes my

> estradiol spike, where testosterone doesn't as much.

>

> I am about due for a sperm count to see where my numbers

> are

>

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>