Re: androgel is that enough

January 9, 2011

Good changes?

Sendt fra min iPhone

Den 9. jan. 2011 kl. 12.09 skrev miguel lopez <farmer_hot@...>:

I have been on androgel for 1 year with many noticeable body changes. Should I

be taking something in addition to androgel?

January 9, 2011

If things are going well I would not mess with it. Here are some things that you

may want to look into as I have seen these in the past. You may want to recheck

thyroid since being on TRT for awhile at good levels your cells are finally

beginning to heal. Once your cells heal then it may cause alteration to adrenal

and thyroid. Once a person is stable with optimal levels then all of sudden

feels bad with good levels then we go back and look at thyroid first. Thyroid

imbalance may occur because T drives your metabolism so if your metabolism

increases then a signal goes back to the brain saying " opps I got good

metabolism you do not need as much thyroid " so the tsh goes up. I have also seen

adrenal fatigue surface as well because too much T can cause lower levels of

cortisol that where low normal before, but now there is not enough cortisol to

function. So as you can see there are many variables that can change during TRT

once the cellular changes occur. If it aint broke do not fix it !!

>

> Good changes?

>

> Sendt fra min iPhone

>

> Den 9. jan. 2011 kl. 12.09 skrev miguel lopez <farmer_hot@...>:

>

> I have been on androgel for 1 year with many noticeable body changes. Should I

be taking something in addition to androgel?

>

January 9, 2011

" I have also seen adrenal fatigue surface as well because too much T can cause

lower levels of cortisol that where low normal before, but now there is not

enough cortisol to function. "

Going by this quote, can low T cause high cortisol?

Only asking due to my TT having been measured between 209 and 350 previously

with HIGH cortisol levels in the AM and PM.

I guess I am asking if the metabolism can be low due to the T levels, and

cortisol goes up to try and compensate. Just an idea that MAY explain my

situation.

January 9, 2011

Lets just say adrenal imbalances can affect hormones in various ways and for

every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. usually high cortisol will

cause lower testosterone. Now if dhea is not balanced with cortisol then this

can cause lower testosterone. The question is what came first. Solution is to

deal with it from both angles as well as identifying the underlying cause.

>

> " I have also seen adrenal fatigue surface as well because too much T can cause

lower levels of cortisol that where low normal before, but now there is not

enough cortisol to function. "

>

> Going by this quote, can low T cause high cortisol?

> Only asking due to my TT having been measured between 209 and 350 previously

with HIGH cortisol levels in the AM and PM.

>

> I guess I am asking if the metabolism can be low due to the T levels, and

cortisol goes up to try and compensate. Just an idea that MAY explain my

situation.

>

January 9, 2011

Well,....unfortunately I will never know what came first.

All I ever had done previously was an AM cortisol blood test that came out right

at top of range. No T tests until years later.

Was just wondering if it could work the other way in terms of low T causing high

cortisol. Guess not.

> >

> > " I have also seen adrenal fatigue surface as well because too much T can

cause lower levels of cortisol that where low normal before, but now there is

not enough cortisol to function. "

> >

> > Going by this quote, can low T cause high cortisol?

> > Only asking due to my TT having been measured between 209 and 350 previously

with HIGH cortisol levels in the AM and PM.

> >

> > I guess I am asking if the metabolism can be low due to the T levels, and

cortisol goes up to try and compensate. Just an idea that MAY explain my

situation.

> >

>

January 9, 2011

90% of the cortisol test I see at the top of the range are because people were

stressed going into the test because they where running late, got pissed off at

something, or when they see a needle they get stressed. High levels are not bad

actually a good thing in reality as it is your ablity to produce levels when

they are not needed. This is why I use cortisol saliva as diagnostic tool then

correlate them with a persons symptoms. I had lady that high cortisol levels on

blood test every time. I finally muscle tested her and she was low. Then to

validate it clincally I had her run a cortisol saliva test and it was low again.

> > >

> > > " I have also seen adrenal fatigue surface as well because too much T can

cause lower levels of cortisol that where low normal before, but now there is

not enough cortisol to function. "

> > >

> > > Going by this quote, can low T cause high cortisol?

> > > Only asking due to my TT having been measured between 209 and 350

previously with HIGH cortisol levels in the AM and PM.

> > >

> > > I guess I am asking if the metabolism can be low due to the T levels, and

cortisol goes up to try and compensate. Just an idea that MAY explain my

situation.

> > >

> >

>

January 9, 2011

I had low teso in my teens, mid testo while in thyroid in My 20s, and

again low testo after cuttibg down on thyroid and adding HC. Maybe HC

lowered My testo making it look like I needed TRT?

Maybe I need to stop HC.

Why dif I Get low cortisol in the first place?

Maybe my bad tonsils is the culprit. Maybe I just need to fix then?

Then stop HC and I will be fine with better testo?

Sendt fra min iPhone

Den 9. jan. 2011 kl. 17.44 skrev " hardasnails1973 " <hardasnails1973@...

>:

> Lets just say adrenal imbalances can affect hormones in various ways

> and for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

> usually high cortisol will cause lower testosterone. Now if dhea is

> not balanced with cortisol then this can cause lower testosterone.

> The question is what came first. Solution is to deal with it from

> both angles as well as identifying the underlying cause.

>

> >

> > " I have also seen adrenal fatigue surface as well because too much

> T can cause lower levels of cortisol that where low normal before,

> but now there is not enough cortisol to function. "

> >

> > Going by this quote, can low T cause high cortisol?

> > Only asking due to my TT having been measured between 209 and 350

> previously with HIGH cortisol levels in the AM and PM.

> >

> > I guess I am asking if the metabolism can be low due to the T

> levels, and cortisol goes up to try and compensate. Just an idea

> that MAY explain my situation.

> >

>

January 9, 2011

I understand most of that about stress, but first off needles do not bother me

at all like some folks.

Second I recently had a saliva based test done, and I was quite high in the

AM,....a few points high at noon,......normal 4/5 PM,......and way high again at

about 11PM. Not as high as the AM but around 20 without digging my test out.

Only thing I can think of 'possibly' that may have skewed the night-time reading

was I went to sleep about 9PM, and set the alarm for 11PM to do the test. I had

to get up about 4AM the next morning.

Maybe the act of going to sleep and then being awakened caused the spike in

cortisol? I have no idea if that is possible or not.

I will be the first to admit that I am a type A personality,....came from being

in business for 19 years I think! LOL

I have always dealt with stress pretty well I think, and I have had a lot of it

in my life. It has only been lately since my health has gone downhill that I

feel like I am not in 100% control of the stress anymore.

>

> 90% of the cortisol test I see at the top of the range are because people were

stressed going into the test because they where running late, got pissed off at

something, or when they see a needle they get stressed. High levels are not bad

actually a good thing in reality as it is your ablity to produce levels when

they are not needed. This is why I use cortisol saliva as diagnostic tool then

correlate them with a persons symptoms. I had lady that high cortisol levels on

blood test every time. I finally muscle tested her and she was low. Then to

validate it clincally I had her run a cortisol saliva test and it was low again.

>

January 9, 2011

Can you post you last set of labs man on TRT can have other problems if they

don't feel right. High levels of Estradiol, low Cortisol and Thyroid levels are

just some of the problems that men can have.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: miguel lopez <farmer_hot@...>

> Subject: androgel is that enough

>

> Date: Sunday, January 9, 2011, 6:09 AM

> I have been on androgel for 1 year

> with many noticeable body changes. Should I be taking

> something in addition to androgel?

>

> ------------------------------------

>

January 9, 2011

Well exploring other aspects will help get your body back to balance You have

already chosen to take that path. This is one of the best decisions you have

made is to reclaim your health. Now we just need to identify where these

potential issue may lay and correct them.

> >

> > 90% of the cortisol test I see at the top of the range are because people

were stressed going into the test because they where running late, got pissed

off at something, or when they see a needle they get stressed. High levels are

not bad actually a good thing in reality as it is your ablity to produce levels

when they are not needed. This is why I use cortisol saliva as diagnostic tool

then correlate them with a persons symptoms. I had lady that high cortisol

levels on blood test every time. I finally muscle tested her and she was low.

Then to validate it clincally I had her run a cortisol saliva test and it was

low again.

> >

>

January 9, 2011

It is true to much Testosterone can over work your Adrenals and in time you can

end up with low T but what we are talking about are what bodybuilders take doing

Steroids.

As for low Testosterone yes this can stress the body and Adrenals can become

over worked. The problem is what came first low Cortiol or low Testosterone.

It's like the Chicken or the EGG.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: marc200134470 <cfs38@...>

> Subject: Re: androgel is that enough

>

> Date: Sunday, January 9, 2011, 11:31 AM

> " I have also seen adrenal fatigue

> surface as well because too much T can cause lower levels of

> cortisol that where low normal before, but now there is not

> enough cortisol to function. "

>

> Going by this quote, can low T cause high cortisol?

> Only asking due to my TT having been measured between 209

> and 350 previously with HIGH cortisol levels in the AM and

> PM.

>

> I guess I am asking if the metabolism can be low due to the

> T levels, and cortisol goes up to try and compensate. Just

> an idea that MAY explain my situation.

>

> ------------------------------------

>

January 9, 2011

Yes,....I certainly have decided to do everything possible before all of the

drugs and hormones.

BTW, what do you think of a product called AdrenaCalm if you are aware of it at

all? My functional medicine doc told me to use it to try and calm down my

cortisol levels and re-program the 'axis' so to speak.

It is a cream you rub on your wrists, behind the knees etc.

Contains Phosphatidylserine along with a number of other things.

>

> Well exploring other aspects will help get your body back to balance You have

already chosen to take that path. This is one of the best decisions you have

made is to reclaim your health. Now we just need to identify where these

potential issue may lay and correct them.

>

January 9, 2011

As i look at it every one has a biological set point and if that set point is

pushed then the body may suffer at the expense of this. Some people set point

may be at 500, but when on TRT may be pushed up 800-900 which is not natural to

the body it could potential alter other hormone levels. In several cases people

on TRT which where 600-700 at trough which is an acceptable level after 6

months with no other variables changes there thyroid took a major nose dive.

This is why Dr need to do 6 months follow up on patients when they are stable on

HRT so this identified.

>

> > From: marc200134470 <cfs38@...>

> > Subject: Re: androgel is that enough

> >

> > Date: Sunday, January 9, 2011, 11:31 AM

> > " I have also seen adrenal fatigue

> > surface as well because too much T can cause lower levels of

> > cortisol that where low normal before, but now there is not

> > enough cortisol to function. "

> >

> > Going by this quote, can low T cause high cortisol?

> > Only asking due to my TT having been measured between 209

> > and 350 previously with HIGH cortisol levels in the AM and

> > PM.

> >

> > I guess I am asking if the metabolism can be low due to the

> > T levels, and cortisol goes up to try and compensate. Just

> > an idea that MAY explain my situation.

> >

> > ------------------------------------

> >

January 9, 2011

Yes in the first stages of Adrenal Insufficiency I don't like to call it Adrenal

Fatigue. As you will see in this link the first stages of this are very high

levels as you go through the stages your adrenals poop out and you end up low.

http://www.chronicfatigue.org/ASI%201%20.html

http://www.chronicfatigue.org/Selye%20large.html

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: marc200134470 <cfs38@...>

> Subject: Re: androgel is that enough

>

> Date: Sunday, January 9, 2011, 11:55 AM

> Well,....unfortunately I will never

> know what came first.

>

> All I ever had done previously was an AM cortisol blood

> test that came out right at top of range. No T tests until

> years later.

> Was just wondering if it could work the other way in terms

> of low T causing high cortisol. Guess not.

>

> > >

> > > " I have also seen adrenal fatigue surface as well

> because too much T can cause lower levels of cortisol that

> where low normal before, but now there is not enough

> cortisol to function. "

> > >

> > > Going by this quote, can low T cause high

> cortisol?

> > > Only asking due to my TT having been measured

> between 209 and 350 previously with HIGH cortisol levels in

> the AM and PM.

> > >

> > > I guess I am asking if the metabolism can be low

> due to the T levels, and cortisol goes up to try and

> compensate. Just an idea that MAY explain my situation.

> > >

> >

>

> ------------------------------------

>

January 9, 2011

i would wait until you have more data from lab tests then one can forumlate a

better approach based upon looking at what factors are involved. I have seen to

many people end up with trying to address the adrenal with OTC products

resulting in making them worse. Finally when they reach you, 6 months has to be

spent correcting their chemistry from self exploration. They should have waited

a few months so the health professional has a clean slate to work with. One

thing that urks me is people giving suggestions on the board who do not

understand how it can make pre-existing matters worse. My passion is thriving on

metabolic messes because I enjoy the challange and success when there is

improvement in patient.

> >

> > Well exploring other aspects will help get your body back to balance You

have already chosen to take that path. This is one of the best decisions you

have made is to reclaim your health. Now we just need to identify where these

potential issue may lay and correct them.

> >

>

January 9, 2011

If your tonsils are infected for a long time and needed to removed yes this in

it's self can lower your Testosterone and Cortisol levels over time.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: <gibcast@...>

> Subject: Re: androgel is that enough

> " " < >

> Date: Sunday, January 9, 2011, 12:27 PM

> I had low teso in my teens, mid testo

> while in thyroid in My 20s, and

> again low testo after cuttibg down on thyroid and adding

> HC. Maybe HC

> lowered My testo making it look like I needed TRT?

>

> Maybe I need to stop HC.

>

> Why dif I Get low cortisol in the first place?

>

> Maybe my bad tonsils is the culprit. Maybe I just need to

> fix then?

> Then stop HC and I will be fine with better testo?

>

> Sendt fra min iPhone

>

> Den 9. jan. 2011 kl. 17.44 skrev " hardasnails1973 "

<hardasnails1973@...

>

> >:

>

> > Lets just say adrenal imbalances can affect hormones

> in various ways

> > and for every action there is an equal and opposite

> reaction.

> > usually high cortisol will cause lower testosterone.

> Now if dhea is

> > not balanced with cortisol then this can cause lower

> testosterone.

> > The question is what came first. Solution is to deal

> with it from

> > both angles as well as identifying the underlying

> cause.

> >

> > >

> > > " I have also seen adrenal fatigue surface as well

> because too much

> > T can cause lower levels of cortisol that where low

> normal before,

> > but now there is not enough cortisol to function. "

> > >

> > > Going by this quote, can low T cause high

> cortisol?

> > > Only asking due to my TT having been measured

> between 209 and 350

> > previously with HIGH cortisol levels in the AM and

> PM.

> > >

> > > I guess I am asking if the metabolism can be low

> due to the T

> > levels, and cortisol goes up to try and compensate.

> Just an idea

> > that MAY explain my situation.

> > >

> >

>

January 9, 2011

I would say your saliva test was not done right. You start when you wake up it

it's 4am this is your start time if you go to bed at 9pm this is your last time.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: marc200134470 <cfs38@...>

> Subject: Re: androgel is that enough

>

> Date: Sunday, January 9, 2011, 12:32 PM

>

> I understand most of that about stress, but first off

> needles do not bother me at all like some folks.

>

> Second I recently had a saliva based test done, and I was

> quite high in the AM,....a few points high at

> noon,......normal 4/5 PM,......and way high again at about

> 11PM. Not as high as the AM but around 20 without digging my

> test out.

>

> Only thing I can think of 'possibly' that may have skewed

> the night-time reading was I went to sleep about 9PM, and

> set the alarm for 11PM to do the test. I had to get up about

> 4AM the next morning.

> Maybe the act of going to sleep and then being awakened

> caused the spike in cortisol? I have no idea if that is

> possible or not.

>

> I will be the first to admit that I am a type A

> personality,....came from being in business for 19 years I

> think! LOL

> I have always dealt with stress pretty well I think, and I

> have had a lot of it in my life. It has only been lately

> since my health has gone downhill that I feel like I am not

> in 100% control of the stress anymore.

>

> >

> > 90% of the cortisol test I see at the top of the range

> are because people were stressed going into the test because

> they where running late, got pissed off at something, or

> when they see a needle they get stressed. High levels

> are not bad actually a good thing in reality as it is your

> ablity to produce levels when they are not needed.

> This is why I use cortisol saliva as diagnostic tool then

> correlate them with a persons symptoms. I had lady

> that high cortisol levels on blood test every time. I

> finally muscle tested her and she was low. Then to validate

> it clincally I had her run a cortisol saliva test and it was

> low again.

> >

>

> ------------------------------------

>

January 9, 2011

As phil mention you need to follow the proper instrucution because it can cause

alteration in the results. With out proper data it makes it more difficult to

proper assess the problem.

>

> I would say your saliva test was not done right. You start when you wake up

it it's 4am this is your start time if you go to bed at 9pm this is your last

time.

> Co-Moderator

> Phil

>

January 9, 2011

I think I told you you should try this if your not sleeping good at night.

http://livingnetwork.co.za/lifestylefunctional-medicine/hormones/adrenal-fatigue\

/

===================================================

Adrenal insufficiency is linked to insomnia in two ways.

1)If your cortisol drops too low during the night your blood sugar drops too.

Your body compensate by releasing adrenaline as an emergency measure to mobilize

more sugar. This has the effect of waking you in an instant. This can be reduced

by eating high protein snack before retiring e.g. sardines, nuts of high quality

protein shake.

2)In early stages of adrenal fatigue cortisol levels tend to rise and if they

are high at midnight they can energise you and keep you awake. Phosphorylated

serine can be used to lower cortisol at these times due to its ACTH dampening

effect.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: marc200134470 <cfs38@...>

> Subject: Re: androgel is that enough

>

> Date: Sunday, January 9, 2011, 12:55 PM

> Yes,....I certainly have decided to

> do everything possible before all of the drugs and

> hormones.

>

> BTW, what do you think of a product called AdrenaCalm if

> you are aware of it at all? My functional medicine doc told

> me to use it to try and calm down my cortisol levels and

> re-program the 'axis' so to speak.

>

> It is a cream you rub on your wrists, behind the knees

> etc.

> Contains Phosphatidylserine along with a number of other

> things.

>

> >

> > Well exploring other aspects will help get your body

> back to balance You have already chosen to take that path.

> This is one of the best decisions you have made is to

> reclaim your health. Now we just need to identify

> where these potential issue may lay and correct them.

> >

>

> ------------------------------------

>

January 9, 2011

I have not used it yet.

For now I am doing on my own what you are suggesting here.

I need to finish that darn NutrEval test as soon as I can before I do anything

IMHO. I wish that test wasn't such a pain though in terms of what you have to

follow. Hopefully I will get a chance in the next couple of weeks or so.

>

> i would wait until you have more data from lab tests then one can forumlate a