Re: Total & free T lower after 4 months on Testim

[Guest guest]

Id guess that lab got bad readings. I don't think your levels could drop.

Labs are always perfect. Your doctor should have asked for a re-do of the lab

work. What did the doc say when he saw that the levels looked lower! Yes, I'd

get away from the present doc and find a fitness doctor or an endrocrineologist.

My fitness doc treats tons of patients, and is really careful with all the

levels. He would have freaked with your new readings.

Bill in la Quinta

From: tendertendon@...

Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 19:49:54 +0000

Subject: Total & free T lower after 4 months on Testim

Four months ago, my doctor put me on Testim (1 tube/day). My total T was 189 and

free T was 46. I just got the results of my latest test and total T is 73 and

free T is 23. How the hell can this be. I just threw away $1500. He has given me

the option of injections and the patch, and has left the decision up to me.

Shouldn't he be the one to select the best option? This guy is a Urologist.

Should I dump him and see a Endocrinologist, someone else or just give up all

together? I'm really lost right now. I could tell by the way I was feeling the

pat 4 months that my levels didn't increase much, but I never thought they would

have dropped.

[Guest guest]

The mistake he made was to not retest you in 2 weeks. In this paper I did it

tells you why and how you can end up lower then you started. I feel Uro and

Endo's are not good Dr.'s for TRT but your is letting you try shots and you

should start with 100mgs / week do them your self or do one better 50 mgs 2x's

/week. Have him give you a jump start shot 200 mgs to get you started then do

your own shots at home.

=================================================

Starting on Androgel or Testim.

Yes this happens a lot you start on a low starting dose 5 grams when your brain

sees the testosterone in your blood even just a little it slows down even stops

sending the LH and FSH message to your testis to make the Testosterone you were

making. So lets say your labs for Total T were 350 you add this dose of gel

your brain sees this and you lose the base level you had before the gel.

Now lets say you need more then 5 grams most do so now all your left with is

what the gel is doing so lets say it's doing 200 so you lost 150.

The reason you feel good is your levels go up that 200 the gel is doing in the

first 2 weeks so your levels go up to 550 in theory. The brain sees this and

you fall back.

Why can this happen it might be how your putting on the gel with Androgel you

need to spread it over your upper arms and shoulders and down your back as far

as you can reach this is half of your dose then do the other side. Just spread

it over the area but don't rub it in.

The other thing is it's not getting through your skin good so you need more. If

you have a thyroid problem your skin will become thicker and gels and creams

don't get through the skin and you need to switch to shots.

I tell men when they go on Gels to retest in 2 weeks because you can end up

feeling worse. Most men just need more gel. Dr.'s that tell men to go on 5

grams of gel and come back in 8 to 12 weeks for labs don't know much about the

use of gels. Dr.'s that treat a lot of men for low T on gels see this happen

and test them again in 2 weeks.

When you go to do labs get up and shower that morning go do your labs and then

put in the gel after your blood test so you don’t spike up your labs. If you

can’t do labs in the morning shower put on the gel but don’t get any gel on

the spot they take the blood from. Do your labs about 6 hrs later.

Call your Dr. and tell him this and that your not feeling good you were but fell

back.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: tendertendon <tendertendon@...>

> Subject: Total & free T lower after 4 months on Testim

>

> Date: Tuesday, December 7, 2010, 2:49 PM

> Four months ago, my doctor put me on

> Testim (1 tube/day). My total T was 189 and free T was 46. I

> just got the results of my latest test and total T is 73 and

> free T is 23. How the hell can this be. I just threw away

> $1500. He has given me the option of injections and the

> patch, and has left the decision up to me. Shouldn't he be

> the one to select the best option? This guy is a Urologist.

> Should I dump him and see a Endocrinologist, someone else or

> just give up all together? I'm really lost right now. I

> could tell by the way I was feeling the pat 4 months that my

> levels didn't increase much, but I never thought they would

> have dropped.

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Sorry but this happens all the time to men that start on Gels and

endrocrineologist are not any good for TRT they just don't get it.

=================================================

Starting on Androgel or Testim.

Yes this happens a lot you start on a low starting dose 5 grams when your brain

sees the testosterone in your blood even just a little it slows down even stops

sending the LH and FSH message to your testis to make the Testosterone you were

making. So lets say your labs for Total T were 350 you add this dose of gel

your brain sees this and you lose the base level you had before the gel.

Now lets say you need more then 5 grams most do so now all your left with is

what the gel is doing so lets say it's doing 200 so you lost 150.

The reason you feel good is your levels go up that 200 the gel is doing in the

first 2 weeks so your levels go up to 550 in theory. The brain sees this and

you fall back.

Why can this happen it might be how your putting on the gel with Androgel you

need to spread it over your upper arms and shoulders and down your back as far

as you can reach this is half of your dose then do the other side. Just spread

it over the area but don't rub it in.

The other thing is it's not getting through your skin good so you need more. If

you have a thyroid problem your skin will become thicker and gels and creams

don't get through the skin and you need to switch to shots.

I tell men when they go on Gels to retest in 2 weeks because you can end up

feeling worse. Most men just need more gel. Dr.'s that tell men to go on 5

grams of gel and come back in 8 to 12 weeks for labs don't know much about the

use of gels. Dr.'s that treat a lot of men for low T on gels see this happen

and test them again in 2 weeks.

When you go to do labs get up and shower that morning go do your labs and then

put in the gel after your blood test so you don’t spike up your labs. If you

can’t do labs in the morning shower put on the gel but don’t get any gel on

the spot they take the blood from. Do your labs about 6 hrs later.

Call your Dr. and tell him this and that your not feeling good you were but fell

back.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: Bill C <captainmarvel58@...>

> Subject: RE: Total & free T lower after 4 months on Testim

>

> Date: Tuesday, December 7, 2010, 3:05 PM

>

>

> Id guess that lab got bad readings.  I don't think

> your levels could drop.  Labs are always perfect. 

> Your doctor should have asked for a re-do of the lab

> work.  What did the doc say when he saw that the levels

> looked lower!  Yes, I'd get away from the present doc

> and find a fitness doctor or an endrocrineologist.  My

> fitness doc treats tons of patients, and is really careful

> with all the levels.  He would have freaked with your

> new readings.

>

> Bill in la Quinta

>

>

>

> From: tendertendon@...

> Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 19:49:54 +0000

> Subject: Total & free T lower after 4

> months on Testim

>

>

>  

>

>

>

> Four months ago, my doctor put me on Testim (1 tube/day).

> My total T was 189 and free T was 46. I just got the results

> of my latest test and total T is 73 and free T is 23. How

> the hell can this be. I just threw away $1500. He has given

> me the option of injections and the patch, and has left the

> decision up to me. Shouldn't he be the one to select the

> best option? This guy is a Urologist. Should I dump him and

> see a Endocrinologist, someone else or just give up all

> together? I'm really lost right now. I could tell by the way

> I was feeling the pat 4 months that my levels didn't

> increase much, but I never thought they would have dropped.

>

>

>

>    

>         

>           

>  

>

>

[Guest guest]

If Uro's & Endo's aren't good for this, who is? I really don't like the idea of

injections, as I'd like to avoid the roller coaster, but it may be my only

option. I don't have insurance, so increasing the gel isn't possible. I'm very

concerned about atrophy, so I asked him about HCG. He told me he couldn't

prescribe it as there is a nationwide shortage. I really think I'm seeing the

wrong guy, and worried that I can't afford the right one. I just threw away

$1500 and am in worse shape than when I started. I can't keep doing this and am

starting to feel like this is something I will just have to live with, but deep

down I feel that my wife won't be able to.

[Guest guest]

tendertendon,

Try to not let this get you all worked up it's not as bad as it looks. First

doing shots today Dr.'s in the know about this do shots every 3 days some 2x's a

week this keeps you off the roller coaster ride. I read Dr. Shippen was

treating his self this way doing shots every 3 days. In his book " The

Testosterone Syndrome " he was down on shots but book is dated now but still

good.

So he has found doing this keeps his self more leveled and holds down his

Estradiol levels. I asked my Dr. if I could do this 7 yrs ago and he said OK I

do great on this.

Your Dr. will not give you a script for HCG because most of the time everyone is

out of it. He is right the HCG Diet people use it up as fast as they make it.

But you can buy this from over seas from the ADC they sell it premixed or the

HCG that needs mixing. Problem with the kind that needs mixing is it is ment to

be mixed and used the same day. It will not last 30 days in the fridge. You

need to buy some Bac. water most get this from Ebay.

The premixed is Premixed Hucog 2000 i.u this will last you a month doing 250

IU's if doing your Test C shot once a week you do this shot the 2 days each just

before your next Test C shot. If doing shots 2x's a week or every 3 days you do

this shot the day before your Test C shot.

Guys by this 6 at time.

http://www.alldaychemist.com/688-hucog-2000-iu-.html

I use Novarel and get it from Medco my Drug care plain is by mail through my

Union the UAW they make sure they have it in stock. I need to mix mine and if I

had to buy from the ADC I would not try the premixed but guys that use it say it

works great.

If you buy the kind that needs mixing make sure it comes in a Vial not an Amp.

Corion 2000 i.u. needs to be mixed and comes in a vial.

http://www.alldaychemist.com/1261-corion.html

Ovidac 2000 i.u. needs to be mixed and comes in a vial.

http://www.alldaychemist.com/1292-ovidac-2000-iu.html

YOu can also buy the gendric to Arimidex (Anastrozole)

to keep Estradiol levels down.

http://www.alldaychemist.com/75_Arimidex-1mg

At the end of this post I will cut and paste how to mix HCG.

I use a small 27g 1ml. x 1/2 " lg. needle to do my Test C shots the oil comes out

slow so I pull the plunger all the way down and just hold it until I get my dose

takes about a min. or two. And when you shoot it it needs to come out slow. I

have been using this size for yrs no pain shooting into my thigh.

So I say go with the shots have your Dr. show you how to do them and do them

your self at home. When you go to do your labs don't use the HCG before doing

your labs and do your labs the morning of your next shot but before it.

====================================================

BTW...the water you need to reconstitute HCG is bacteriostatic water.

Calculating HCG:

There isn't a specific ratio of cc/ml to IU. It depends on how you mix it. It's

quite simple. If you dillute 5,000 IUs HCG with 5ml (cc) solvent, the end result

is 1,000 IUs per ml (cc). Divide the same 5,000 IUs with 10 ml (cc) and the end

result is 500 IUs per ml (cc). Therefore, a large part depends on the

concentration of HCG per ampoule or vial.

Mixing HCG:

(Items needed: bacwater h20 and some 5ml emty vials-get****).

1) Open hcg/amp with powder

2) Use a syringe to pull out 1cc of BacWater and put in amp with HCG

3) It will instantly dissolve

4) Then Use an empty 5ml vial (sterile and sealed) put 4ml of Bacwater in the

vial

5) Take syringe and ad the mixed HCG solution to the 5ml vial

6) Shake it and you have 5000IU's of HCG

7) Than draw 1cc and inject

8) put the rest in the refrigerator

•The reason your discarding the amp of solvent cause its made for 1 times use

and you wouldn’t be able to refrigerate it and use it a week later again.

That’s why you need Bac H2o.

•The most common side affect associated with HCG is gynecomastia. The

concurrent intake of Nolvadex with HCG prevents gynecomastia, prevents/minimizes

leydig cell desensitization and contiues the stimulation of pituitary LH once

HCG has been discontinued.

•HCG will last approximately 30 days if mixed with Bac h2o instead of the

solvent it comes with.

•You can keep the mixed hcg in vial or pins In the fridge till use

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: tendertendon <tendertendon@...>

> Subject: Re: Total & free T lower after 4 months on Testim

>

> Date: Tuesday, December 7, 2010, 5:24 PM

>

>

> If Uro's & Endo's aren't good for this, who is? I

> really don't like the idea of injections, as I'd like to

> avoid the roller coaster, but it may be my only option. I

> don't have insurance, so increasing the gel isn't possible.

> I'm very concerned about atrophy, so I asked him about HCG.

> He told me he couldn't prescribe it as there is a nationwide

> shortage. I really think I'm seeing the wrong guy, and

> worried that I can't afford the right one. I just threw away

> $1500 and am in worse shape than when I started. I can't

> keep doing this and am starting to feel like this is

> something I will just have to live with, but deep down I

> feel that my wife won't be able to.

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

I went from Testim to injections. I experience no rollercoaster.

I inject 2x / week.

It is a pain in the *ss (literally) but only take about 5 min. / injection.

It took me almost as long to get the testim rubbed in each day. Then I'd have

to walk around smelling of the stuff and having my shirts stick to me.

Price? Some here have quoted T cypionate at $35 / month CASH.

Some folks just don't like needles. I can't blame them, but there are other

options.

>

>

>

> If Uro's & Endo's aren't good for this, who is? I really don't like the idea

of injections, as I'd like to avoid the roller coaster, but it may be my only

option. I don't have insurance, so increasing the gel isn't possible. I'm very

concerned about atrophy, so I asked him about HCG. He told me he couldn't

prescribe it as there is a nationwide shortage. I really think I'm seeing the

wrong guy, and worried that I can't afford the right one. I just threw away

$1500 and am in worse shape than when I started. I can't keep doing this and am

starting to feel like this is something I will just have to live with, but deep

down I feel that my wife won't be able to.

>

[Guest guest]

I'd like to thank all of you that took the time to reply, especially you Phil.

Your posts on this board are invaluable and appreciated more than you realise.

Not only do you supply a huge amount of information & guidance, but comfort as

well. You gave alot of info to swallow and I'll review it all. When I get back

into town tomorrow, I'll call the Doc and get started on the injections. I guess

it's best to get my levels up as soon as possible and start feeling good again,

then worry about the fine tuning and atrophy when the time comes. If he is only

willing to put me on 50mg/week or so, do you recommend I find another Doc or

take what he gives me for now? I can't afford to waste more time. I already

wasted 3 years.

Jeff

[Guest guest]

Jeff try it there are some men that only do 50 mgs a week in a shot. Not all

men need higher levels to feel good. Here is what you do try then shots if you

feel better then fall back. Call your Dr. tell him how you felt then you fell

back. Don't tell him why you think this happened but ask if you can do labs to

see if your levels came up.

When your labs come back and if they are very low I can't see how your Dr. would

not up your dose.

It is best to start low and work your way up.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: tendertendon <tendertendon@...>

> Subject: Re: Total & free T lower after 4 months on Testim

>

> Date: Thursday, December 9, 2010, 7:42 PM

>

>

> I'd like to thank all of you that took the time to reply,

> especially you Phil. Your posts on this board are invaluable

> and appreciated more than you realise. Not only do you

> supply a huge amount of information & guidance, but

> comfort as well. You gave alot of info to swallow and I'll

> review it all. When I get back into town tomorrow, I'll call

> the Doc and get started on the injections. I guess it's best

> to get my levels up as soon as possible and start feeling

> good again, then worry about the fine tuning and atrophy

> when the time comes. If he is only willing to put me on

> 50mg/week or so, do you recommend I find another Doc or take

> what he gives me for now? I can't afford to waste more time.

> I already wasted 3 years.

>

> Jeff

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

With the help of this group, I'm feeling much better about all this. When I

first started treatment with this doctor, I asked if he will be monitoring and

controlling my estrogen levels. He said " there's no point in doing that because

they don't do anything " . TRT is clearly not his specialty. He is willing to give

me a script for the injections though, so I might as well use it. I sent him an

email to let him know I want to move forward with the injections. I probably

won't hear from him until Monday. I realise that I will be the one balancing my

E2 levels and preventing atrophy, as he certainly is unwilling/incapable. Given

all the research I've done and all the help/advice I've received, I'm sure I can

make this work.

Phil, I'm looking forward to getting started, but there's a few things in your

last post that I'm unsure of. Please bear with me as these may seem like stupid

questions.

1) You stated that " guys buy this 6 at a time " and gave a link to the 2000 iu of

premixed Hucog. Thanks for the link. Why would people choose HCG that needs

mixing over premixed? I have enough to think about right now, so I'll probably

go with the premixed unless there is a strong argument to mix myself. Would 6

vials typically be a 6 month supply? Why do they buy 6? Is it to offset the

shipping? Why not buy more than 6? Is shelf life the concern?

2) I will probably choose to inject every 3 days. Can the syringe be used more

than once? Can you use the same syringe for test and HCG?

I will tell my doc that I want my E2 level checked along with my T level. If I

see it climbing too much, I'll start out with very small doses of the generic

Arimidex. I'm confident I'll be able to get balanced in time. Thanks,

Jeff

[Guest guest]

Jeff,

The premixed HCG is new I have not tried it I don't need to order from ADC I get

my HCG Novarel that needs mixing from my Drug Care Plain for $16.00 / month. It

comes with the right water for mixing and lasts 30 days in the fridge. I just

did a post to CH about Estradiol and how to control it read it.

As for buying 6 at time guys do this because it ends up on back order the Diet

People use it up and they can't make it fast enough. So they buy 6 when they

are down to 3 they order 6 more so they have a back supply.

No you can't use Syringes over again you can buy then at Amazon.com a box of 90

for $24.00.

If I were you I would buy the kind you need to mix to start so you know it

works. Later after you know how you feel on it try the premixed.

You can buy bacteriostatic water at this link and use it until it's gone.

http://www.hcgforyou.com/2-vials--bacteriostatic-wate.html

BD Syringes Ultra-Fine 30g; 1cc; 90ct; 12.7mm (1/2 in)

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: tendertendon <tendertendon@...>

> Subject: Re: Total & free T lower after 4 months on Testim

>

> Date: Friday, December 10, 2010, 9:50 PM

> With the help of this group, I'm

> feeling much better about all this. When I first started

> treatment with this doctor, I asked if he will be monitoring

> and controlling my estrogen levels. He said " there's no

> point in doing that because they don't do anything " . TRT is

> clearly not his specialty. He is willing to give me a script

> for the injections though, so I might as well use it. I sent

> him an email to let him know I want to move forward with the

> injections. I probably won't hear from him until Monday. I

> realise that I will be the one balancing my E2 levels and

> preventing atrophy, as he certainly is unwilling/incapable.

> Given all the research I've done and all the help/advice

> I've received, I'm sure I can make this work.

>

> Phil, I'm looking forward to getting started, but there's a

> few things in your last post that I'm unsure of. Please bear

> with me as these may seem like stupid questions.

>

> 1) You stated that " guys buy this 6 at a time " and gave a

> link to the 2000 iu of premixed Hucog. Thanks for the link.

> Why would people choose HCG that needs mixing over premixed?

> I have enough to think about right now, so I'll probably go

> with the premixed unless there is a strong argument to mix

> myself. Would 6 vials typically be a 6 month supply? Why do

> they buy 6? Is it to offset the shipping? Why not buy more

> than 6? Is shelf life the concern?

>

> 2) I will probably choose to inject every 3 days. Can the

> syringe be used more than once? Can you use the same syringe

> for test and HCG?

>

> I will tell my doc that I want my E2 level checked along

> with my T level. If I see it climbing too much, I'll start

> out with very small doses of the generic Arimidex. I'm

> confident I'll be able to get balanced in time. Thanks,

>

> Jeff

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>