Re: starting to move people to more aromasin

[Guest guest]

And people without insurance or those whose insurance will not cover hmg are

what?

>

> I have known this for several years, but it has been the main stream medical

practice which has been holding it back. If the insurance is going to cover it

then our patients will be switch. It is easier on lipids, does not lower igf-1

levels, and will not cause a rebound effect like adex. After discussing it with

Dr Overbeck he was all for once the facts were presented. We are also moving

towards HMG vs HCG for guys wanted better fertility. This will also be allowed

if insurance covers it. The dosage will be 75 ius 2 times a week which put them

at average dosage. People on HMG will be monitored for increases in sperm counts

as well then adjusted accordingly.

>

[Guest guest]

Contact jansz he found it at reasonable price.

> >

> > I have known this for several years, but it has been the main stream medical

practice which has been holding it back. If the insurance is going to cover it

then our patients will be switch. It is easier on lipids, does not lower igf-1

levels, and will not cause a rebound effect like adex. After discussing it with

Dr Overbeck he was all for once the facts were presented. We are also moving

towards HMG vs HCG for guys wanted better fertility. This will also be allowed

if insurance covers it. The dosage will be 75 ius 2 times a week which put them

at average dosage. People on HMG will be monitored for increases in sperm counts

as well then adjusted accordingly.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Define reasonable

> > >

> > > I have known this for several years, but it has been the main stream

medical practice which has been holding it back. If the insurance is going to

cover it then our patients will be switch. It is easier on lipids, does not

lower igf-1 levels, and will not cause a rebound effect like adex. After

discussing it with Dr Overbeck he was all for once the facts were presented. We

are also moving towards HMG vs HCG for guys wanted better fertility. This will

also be allowed if insurance covers it. The dosage will be 75 ius 2 times a week

which put them at average dosage. People on HMG will be monitored for increases

in sperm counts as well then adjusted accordingly.

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Sounds like a great plain I do feel much better doing 12.5 to 25 mgs of Aromasin

/ day I have yet to go down to low for more then a half a day.

I talked to my Dr. about his 2 yrs ago he was not for it. I wish I would have

pushed him more on this.

But all the hype about it being a suicide inhibitor turned most men and there

Dr. off about this.

I do have some men that got this over seas but took it to lower there Estraidol

that were not on TRT and went to low. It took a little time to get back but

they are fine now.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: hardasnails1973 <hardasnails1973@...>

> Subject: starting to move people to more aromasin

>

> Date: Thursday, January 20, 2011, 6:04 PM

> I have known this for several years,

> but it has been the main stream medical practice which has

> been holding it back. If the insurance is going to cover it

> then our patients will be switch. It is easier on lipids,

> does not lower igf-1 levels, and will not cause a rebound

> effect like adex.  After discussing it with Dr Overbeck

> he was all for once the facts were presented. We are also

> moving towards HMG vs HCG for guys wanted better fertility.

> This will also be allowed if insurance covers it. The dosage

> will be 75 ius 2 times a week which put them at average

> dosage. People on HMG will be monitored for increases in

> sperm counts as well then adjusted accordingly.

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

For the people that don't know JanSz he posts at Dr. 's forum.

http://www.musclechatroom.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?2-All-Things-Male

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: hardasnails1973 <hardasnails1973@...>

> Subject: Re: starting to move people to more aromasin

>

> Date: Thursday, January 20, 2011, 7:45 PM

> Contact jansz he found it at

> reasonable price.

>

>

> > >

> > > I have known this for several years, but it has

> been the main stream medical practice which has been holding

> it back. If the insurance is going to cover it then our

> patients will be switch. It is easier on lipids, does not

> lower igf-1 levels, and will not cause a rebound effect like

> adex.  After discussing it with Dr Overbeck he was all

> for once the facts were presented. We are also moving

> towards HMG vs HCG for guys wanted better fertility. This

> will also be allowed if insurance covers it. The dosage will

> be 75 ius 2 times a week which put them at average dosage.

> People on HMG will be monitored for increases in sperm

> counts as well then adjusted accordingly.

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hard,

To add to this I think I should not have went back on Preg. cream been on it 2

days and having very sore and hard nipples with feelings of Panic and anxiety.

My plain was to wait and see what my labs look like next Tue. So dam If I don't

feel better and mess it up. Now today I am not doing the Preg. cream going to

wait for my labs I think my levels are on the high side for Prog. and the Preg.

is diving it up now. I feel the same way I did not the Prog. cream.

Co-Moderator

Phil

Co-Moderator

Phil

>

> > From: hardasnails1973 <hardasnails1973@...>

> > Subject: starting to move people to

> more aromasin

> >

> > Date: Thursday, January 20, 2011, 6:04 PM

> > I have known this for several years,

> > but it has been the main stream medical practice which

> has

> > been holding it back. If the insurance is going to

> cover it

> > then our patients will be switch. It is easier on

> lipids,

> > does not lower igf-1 levels, and will not cause a

> rebound

> > effect like adex.  After discussing it with Dr

> Overbeck

> > he was all for once the facts were presented. We are

> also

> > moving towards HMG vs HCG for guys wanted better

> fertility.

> > This will also be allowed if insurance covers it. The

> dosage

> > will be 75 ius 2 times a week which put them at

> average

> > dosage. People on HMG will be monitored for increases

> in

> > sperm counts as well then adjusted accordingly.

> >

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

HMG? hardas you are knowledgeable and seem ethical. Two great signs. But you

pump a lot of info. I thought HCg helps with sperm production even in primary

males like me. So now you are pumping HMG, a product i never heard about (is it

FDA approved?) Please, give links, etc to products that are new to the eyes and

or ears. Now I am going to research HMG and see if it can help me conceive one

day soon. But please dnt pump stuff that have no medical case studies and not

FDA approved. I dnt want to take anything untested in cases, etc all cause it

may bring me some hope.

Re: starting to move people to more aromasin

Contact jansz he found it at reasonable price.

> >

> > I have known this for several years, but it has been the main stream

medical practice which has been holding it back. If the insurance is going to

cover it then our patients will be switch. It is easier on lipids, does not

lower igf-1 levels, and will not cause a rebound effect like adex. After

discussing it with Dr Overbeck he was all for once the facts were presented. We

are also moving towards HMG vs HCG for guys wanted better fertility. This will

also be allowed if insurance covers it. The dosage will be 75 ius 2 times a week

which put them at average dosage. People on HMG will be monitored for increases

in sperm counts as well then adjusted accordingly.

> >

>

[The entire original message is not included]

[Guest guest]

We now have a few guys on it using HMG for secondary hypogonadism with also

intend to concieve. Dosages are 150 ius a week . They will retest their sperm

counts and adjust upward. Sorry but If we sit around on our asses we will not

get anything accomplished. I am way ahead of the game when it comes to medicine

by about 15-20 years. If it was not FDA approved it could not prescribed

Pumping information this is nothing. When people actually meet me in person they

will be the star of the next exocist movie.

> > >

> > > I have known this for several years, but it has been the main stream

medical practice which has been holding it back. If the insurance is going to

cover it then our patients will be switch. It is easier on lipids, does not

lower igf-1 levels, and will not cause a rebound effect like adex. After

discussing it with Dr Overbeck he was all for once the facts were presented. We

are also moving towards HMG vs HCG for guys wanted better fertility. This will

also be allowed if insurance covers it. The dosage will be 75 ius 2 times a week

which put them at average dosage. People on HMG will be monitored for increases

in sperm counts as well then adjusted accordingly.

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

> [The entire original message is not included]

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hard I went back on the Preg. cream lasted two days it drove up my E2 levels big

time. I am not sure about what chilln says about this Preg. cream making

Cortisol levels go up and this stops the conversion of T into E2. He posted

back to me saying (when progesterone gets backed up, then it's time to boost

those thyroid hormones.) What he is saying now if my T4 is not high enough I am

on 150 mcgs /day of T4 and have high RT3 levels.

The more I read about this the more I feel like I am being some ones test

subject.

Do you feel some one that is Secondary Hypopituitary and has low cortisol levels

because there Pituitary does not tell there Adrenals to make enough Cortisol.

That taking Preg. cream it will convert into enough Cortisol to stop the

conversion of T into E2.

I was on Preg. cream 12 weeks my levels went up from low to 117 for Preg. My

Cortisol levels never moved.

Or I should have waited for my labs to see what my Preg. and Prog. levels were

maybe going back on the Preg. drove up the Prog. on me making my E2 jump up

again.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: hardasnails1973 <hardasnails1973@...>

> Subject: Re: starting to move people to more aromasin

>

> Date: Saturday, January 22, 2011, 11:42 AM

> We now have a few guys on it using

> HMG for secondary hypogonadism with also intend to concieve.

> Dosages are 150 ius a week . They will retest their sperm

> counts and adjust upward. Sorry but If we sit around on our

> asses we will not get anything accomplished. I am way ahead

> of the game when it comes to medicine by about 15-20 years.

> If it was not FDA approved it could not prescribed

> Pumping information this is nothing. When people actually

> meet me in person they will be the star of the next exocist

> movie.

>

>

> >  > >

> >  > > I have known this for several years,

> but it has been the main stream medical practice which has

> been holding it back. If the insurance is going to cover it

> then our patients will be switch. It is easier on lipids,

> does not lower igf-1 levels, and will not cause a rebound

> effect like adex. After discussing it with Dr Overbeck he

> was all for once the facts were presented. We are also

> moving towards HMG vs HCG for guys wanted better fertility.

> This will also be allowed if insurance covers it. The dosage

> will be 75 ius 2 times a week which put them at average

> dosage. People on HMG will be monitored for increases in

> sperm counts as well then adjusted accordingly.

> >  > >

> >  >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > [The entire original message is not included]

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Phil, have you changed where you're putting the pregnenolone cream? Seems

odd that only now you'd be having such issues with it when you'd been on it

before with no apparent problem. You said you put it on your abdomen, but

perhaps that's not the right place to put it?

In my experience with DHEA cream I find applying it to thin skin where

there's no muscle underneath can be almost as bad as taking sublingual DHEA

(e.g. my estradiol gets driven up and I feel woozy, which isn't estradiol,

but some other odd effect I get from DHEA pills). My biceps and back are the

best places to apply it.

By the way, thanks for posting that link to what Chilln wrote.

-Nigel

On 22 January 2011 10:59, philip georgian <pmgamer18@...> wrote:

>

>

> Hard I went back on the Preg. cream lasted two days it drove up my E2

> levels big time. I am not sure about what chilln says about this Preg. cream

> making Cortisol levels go up and this stops the conversion of T into E2. He

> posted back to me saying (when progesterone gets backed up, then it's time

> to boost those thyroid hormones.) What he is saying now if my T4 is not high

> enough I am on 150 mcgs /day of T4 and have high RT3 levels.

>

> The more I read about this the more I feel like I am being some ones test

> subject.

>

> Do you feel some one that is Secondary Hypopituitary and has low cortisol

> levels because there Pituitary does not tell there Adrenals to make enough

> Cortisol.

>

> That taking Preg. cream it will convert into enough Cortisol to stop the

> conversion of T into E2.

>

> I was on Preg. cream 12 weeks my levels went up from low to 117 for Preg.

> My Cortisol levels never moved.

>

> Or I should have waited for my labs to see what my Preg. and Prog. levels

> were maybe going back on the Preg. drove up the Prog. on me making my E2

> jump up again.

>

> Co-Moderator

> Phil

>

[Guest guest]

> Sounds like a great plain I do feel much better doing 12.5 to 25

> mgs of Aromasin / day I have yet to go down to low for more then a

> half a day.

Hi,

I've tried it for a couple of months when a trusted source had it on " sale " and

it worked well for me (my insurance sucks in certain ways about what they will

and won't cover, or they'll cover... 10$ on a 180$ prescription or...) and I

must say I liked some aspects of it.

I'm lucky the doc I work with is cool with me getting meds from " unusual "

sources sometimes... he knows I mix the cypionate I've got a script for 1:1 with

sustanon for example... or that since the insurance company won't cover arimidex

decently (40$/month (4 pills is a month's script... so that's 10$/pill roughly)

I order from ADC

I was on 1/2 a tab every day (12.5mg) and the every day part was attractive...

none of this cutting pills into quarters and doing them EOD... unless I'm

feeling like I'm going high/low then adjusting a 1/2 day (to like 2.5 days

between pills pieces... or to 1.5 days between pieces... cutting pills into

pieces this small they WON " T be accurate)... so I felt more " stable " e2 wise.

if I had a good reliable reasonably priced source I'd go with the aromasin

(aromasin is available from ADC but is NOT cheap).

I haven't tried HMG yet but probably will if I see a good source... currently

it's pretty high but like everything else will come down... (remember when HGH

first hit the market?)

if I get similar results I'll just alternate weeks with HCG to avoid

desensitization... give it a month for a trial (2 pops a week just before my

weekly test shot)... then alternate (HCG -will- be significantly cheaper short

run) weeks after that.

[Guest guest]

Nigel,

I was on Preg. cream 12 weeks and my levels went up to 117 from very low. But

my Cortisol levels never moved up or down. Then I ran out of Preg. and when I

got more I got the wrong kind. I ended up with Prog. cream 20 mgs and I was

feel great on this even though Dr. feels it should not be used by men.

Well after about 6 weeks I found out what Dr. was saying and ended up with

very high levels of Estraidol. And at the time this was happening my Drug Care

plain sent me the Generic to Arimidex dam I was taking 2.5 mgs / day to keep my

levels down. I felt this was the generic not the Prog. cream but I was wrong I

stopped the Prog. cream and after 9 days my E2 levels came back down. So just

to prove this I went back on the Prog. cream and by the next morning my E2 was a

big problem again.

So I went on Aromasin 25 mgs / day now this works great for me and I have yet to

go to low.

I was going to wait until I see my labs next Tue before I went back on the Preg.

cream but after thinking about it having done my labs what would it hurt.

So I went back on it using it the same way I did when I was on it 12 weeks. By

the 3rd day my E2 was going nuts again. I posted about this and this is what

chilln said.

====================================================

With this much E2 generation, your cells are obviously depleted of the

cortisol-production-line hormones (eg: preg, prog, cortisol).

I can't see how allowing your cortisol-production-line hormones (eg: preg, prog,

cortisol) to remain at such low levels, while suppressing E2 with arimidex or

aromasin, could be of any benefit.

----------------------------------------------------

And then this.

====================================================

Newbies and lurkers please note. While pmgamer18 is trialling aromasin, he's

only doing this because he's prepared to mess with his E2, but he's not prepared

to address his cortisol and thyroid hormones at this time. Hopefuly pmgamer18

will return to modulating his E2 by boosting his cortisol and thryoid hormones,

and demonstrate conclusively (to himself and his medical professional adviser)

that it is indeed possible to completely downregulate E2 without aromasin or

arimidex.

----------------------------------------------------

Now I am not sure about this but I can't see how he feels some one that is

Secondary and there Pituitary does not tell there Adrenals to make Cortisol.

How is Preg. going to make it and enough.

So this is what I posted back to him.

====================================================

Chilln I have no choice here I am so high on E2 levels with out taking something

for it I am having Panic Attacks day and night. I pray your Preg. Idea works and

I treat my Thyroid and low Cortisol levels. Being on the Prog. cream I tired by

mistake drove my E2 nuts. Then I am sent on my Drug plain the generic for

Arimidex this stuff dose not work.

I did do preg. cream 12 weeks my levels went up from low to 117 yet my Cortisol

never moved. I stopped the Prog. cream some time ago. I was holding off going

back on Preg. cream until I see my labs next Tue. But I tired it for 2 days I

don't know why but it must have went into Prog. It went into E2 again having

sore and hard nipples with a lot of sweating and Waves of Panic feelings.

Aromasin helps much better with E2 but I want to be off stuff to lower E2. So I

stopped the Preg. cream today going to hold off on it until I see how my labs

look next Tue.

As for taking Aromasin to control my E2 what would you do if you know how Panic

Attacks feel I think you would be doing the same thing I am.

We come up with things over the yrs to try to lower E2 every time I try them I

end up a mess I sure hope this time Preg. cream works.

I did not see my Cortisol levels move up or down after being on Preg. cream 12

weeks and my Preg. levels went up. So how long are you talking about before one

sees this work.

---------------------------------------------------

Chilln says this.

===================================================

Then that's because your adrenal enzymes are too sluggish and need to be

invigorated with some T4 to flush your preg and prog into cortisol.

This info wasn't spelled out in the Cortisol boost 101 primer when you first

started supplementing with pregnenolone, and therefore you were ahead of the

curve.

Since that time we've discovered that when progesterone gets backed up, then

it's time to boost those thyroid hormones.

Sorry we hadn't yet worked that out when you first tried preg. We know this now.

In fact watching pregnenolone supplementation cause prog to get " backed up " is

the best method we have of identifying when T4 levels are mismatched to cortisol

levels (ie: the best method we have of identifying when T4 levels are too low

for existing cortisol levels).

Your E2 metabolism increased because your prog got backed up. High prog triggers

upregulation of E2 receptors without a corresponding increase in E2 serum

levels, but you still needed more arimidex / aromasin to combat this effect.

###

I've been updating the primers daily, and the latest incarnation of the Cortisol

boost 101, part 3, includes the following (bold is copied from the primer, not

added afterwards)

Originally Posted by chilln

If you've found your " top up " sweet spot, and either:

a) your sleep hasn't improved adequately,

or

your energy hasn't improved adequately,

or:

c) your E2 hasn't been lowered sufficiently,

then:

your pregnenolone or progesterone are most likely getting backed up, so now you

need to introduce the boost to your thyroid hormones to invigorate your adrenal

enzymes to synthesize all of your preg and prog into cortisol, without backing

up

Boosting thyroid hormones is the second step in the overall step-by-step hormone

modulation therapy explained in the Hormones 101 primer.

Last edited by chilln; 1 Day Ago at 01:39 AM.

----------------------------------------------------

Then JanSz jumps in more or less saying I am not going by labs because I can's

scan my labs and post them. Saying this makes me mad.

====================================================

I see lots of speculations and few hard numbers.

You, Phil are doing blood tests every 6 weeks (year in year out), on continuous

basis for at least last 20 years.

It is about time to get a good set of analytes and keep doing them and posting

them including exact protocol that was used prior to blood draw.

So when you are saying that you have a high preg or high prog (or even E2),

that is not a fact,

that is just a guess (until you back up your statements with numbers).

All we know for sure is that your RT3 is high.

----------------------------------------------------

My reply to him.

====================================================

I give up I don't give out speculations about my levels when I sit and type my

labs because I can't scan them you tell me do Urine labs or SpectraCell or some

other kind of lab that is not covered by my BCBS. I have been told to lower my

Testosterone dose and crashed doing this. I tried Preg. cream my E2 levels are

still way to high by my dam labs and my Cortisol levels are not moving up where

they are going to lower my E2 levels

Come on I am game to try things but when they don't work it's me not telling the

true story?????????????

How many Secondary men on this forum doing Preg. were able to stop HC meds and

not need to treat there High E2 levels. Unless I am missing some thing I don't

see it.

---------------------------------------------------

And I said this.

-------------------------------------------------

I can't help but feel you and chilln saying doing Preg. will up Cortiosl levels

for me when I am Hypopituitary, and I say this over and over again my Adreanls

work fine just don't get told to work so I have low Cortisol levels. So much so

they have put me in the ER suffering from Adrenal Crisis where if they did not

read my card I carry with me about this. And not given me a shot of Medrol I

would not be here.

Just how much Cortisol do you guys see in men like me going up from Preg. So far

I have not seen it and I am starting to think it's not going to happen. I mean

if your not getting Cortisol from your Adrenals how much do you think Preg. can

convert into.

What I am saying is Preg. is not going to tell my Adreanls to make more Cortisol

it's not going to happen.

----------------------------------------------------

So this is the last reply to me from Chilln and I don't feel there idea about

doing Preg. is going to work on people that are Secondary if any one knows

better every you Hard if your reading this give me a heads up. Chilln is not

telling me to take T3 I am on T3 5mcg 2x's/day if I go up to 3 x's per day I go

hyper.

==================================================

Re: Aromasin

Originally Posted by pmgamer18

I am on 150 mcgs of generic Synthroid

my last set of labs were.

T4 (Thyroxine), Total 8.4 top of range is 12.5 mcg/dL.

Free T4 Index (T7) 2.6 top of range is 3.8.

T4 Free 1.3 top of range is 1.8.

My RT3 is high due to my pain from Statin Drug damage to my muscles. RT3 is 38

top of range is 32 ng/dL. But it is down from my last set of labs 2 months ago

of 41.

So if I went up on the Synthroid should I try 1/4 extra of the pill and go from

there.

Chilln says.

----------------------------------------------------

I recommend optimizing just with either compounded-slow-release-T3, or

straight-T3, before changing T4 dosages.

Adjustments to T4 dosages take around 2 weeks to achieve stable serum levels, so

I recommend putting up with frequent T3 dosing initially, and getting the best

synergy going between thyroid hormone T3 and cortisol (eg: lowering of E2,

bettter erecion performance). Note that supplemeting with frequent doses of

either compounded-slow-release-T3 or straight-T3 will result in sparing of T4 !

So you will actually get more stable thyroid hormone metabolism than you might

initially think.

After you get the optimum synergy between T3 and cortisol (via preg or prog

supplementation) then that's when it's time to swap out some of the T3 for T4.

The swapping process will also require time and interation to get the doses

optimum. Provided we hold off swapping from T3 to T4 until after we've

experienced optimization, then we'll know all of the right symptoms to look for.

###

Eventually you'll even be able to swap out some of the preg / prog for HC, but

only swap preg / prog AFTER you've finished swapping T3 for T4.

.....(i) Always optimize the cortisol-production-line hormones first using

transdermal preg or prog (not HC) because transdermal preg / prog are absorbed

more slowly than HC, so they're less likely to cause a sudden onset of

drownsiness (ACTH sppression) if they're dosed a little too high.

....(ii) Always optimize the cortisol-production-line hormones first using

transdermal preg or prog (not HC) because transdermal preg / prog give us an

excellent indication of when thyroid hormones are too low ! In that when either

preg or prog get backed up, then we know for sure that our thyroid hormones are

too low (as you have discovered).

---------------------------------------------------

Originally Posted by pmgamer18

And how many days to see if it works.

Chilln says.

---------------------------------------------------

That depends on how quickly you can ramp up your serum T3 levels.

But the fastest outcome for a normal metabolizer is still no less than 2 weeks

because frequent T3 supplementation (eg: every 4 hours) will spare T4, and

adjusting T4 levels (either directly or indirectly via " sparing " ) still takes 2

weeks to stabilize.

I was able to achieve stability in 1 week because I'm a fast metabolizer.

----------------------------------------------------

Originally Posted by pmgamer18

Still I am going to hold off until I see my Dr. Tue. and see my labs - I will

post them.

I feel better today so thats a plus.

Thanks I am going to keep trying

this E2 is killing me.

Chilln says.

-------------------------------------------

noted

..

Last edited by chilln; 8 Hours Ago at 03:14 AM.

It sure would be great to just do Preg. cream and not need HC meds or to take

meds to control E2. So far I don't see this happening.

Co-Moderator

Phil

>

> >

> >

> > Hard I went back on the Preg. cream lasted two days it

> drove up my E2

> > levels big time. I am not sure about what chilln says

> about this Preg. cream

> > making Cortisol levels go up and this stops the

> conversion of T into E2. He

> > posted back to me saying (when progesterone gets

> backed up, then it's time

> > to boost those thyroid hormones.) What he is saying

> now if my T4 is not high

> > enough I am on 150 mcgs /day of T4 and have high RT3

> levels.

> >

> > The more I read about this the more I feel like I am

> being some ones test

> > subject.

> >

> > Do you feel some one that is Secondary Hypopituitary

> and has low cortisol

> > levels because there Pituitary does not tell there

> Adrenals to make enough

> > Cortisol.

> >

> > That taking Preg. cream it will convert into enough

> Cortisol to stop the

> > conversion of T into E2.

> >

> > I was on Preg. cream 12 weeks my levels went up from

> low to 117 for Preg.

> > My Cortisol levels never moved.

> >

> > Or I should have waited for my labs to see what my

> Preg. and Prog. levels

> > were maybe going back on the Preg. drove up the Prog.

> on me making my E2

> > jump up again.

> >

> > Co-Moderator

> > Phil

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

If you go to Dr. 's forum and send JanSZ a PM he knows a good sorce for HMG.

http://www.musclechatroom.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?2-All-Things-Male

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: jbbooks1901 <jbbooks1901@...>

> Subject: Re: starting to move people to more aromasin

>

> Date: Sunday, January 23, 2011, 12:25 AM

>

> > Sounds like a great plain I do feel much better doing

> 12.5 to 25

> > mgs of Aromasin / day I have yet to go down to low for

> more then a

> > half a day.

>

> Hi,

>

> I've tried it for a couple of months when a trusted source

> had it on " sale " and it worked well for me (my insurance

> sucks in certain ways about what they will and won't cover,

> or they'll cover... 10$ on a 180$ prescription or...) and I

> must say I liked some aspects of it.

>

> I'm lucky the doc I work with is cool with me getting meds

> from " unusual " sources sometimes... he knows I mix the

> cypionate I've got a script for 1:1 with sustanon for

> example... or that since the insurance company won't cover

> arimidex decently (40$/month (4 pills is a month's script...

> so that's 10$/pill roughly) I order from ADC

>

> I was on 1/2 a tab every day (12.5mg) and the every day

> part was attractive... none of this cutting pills into

> quarters and doing them EOD... unless I'm feeling like I'm

> going high/low then adjusting a 1/2 day (to like 2.5 days

> between pills pieces... or to 1.5 days between pieces...

> cutting pills into pieces this small they WON " T be

> accurate)... so I felt more " stable " e2 wise.

>

> if I had a good reliable reasonably priced source I'd go

> with the aromasin (aromasin is available from ADC but is NOT

> cheap).

>

> I haven't tried HMG yet but probably will if I see a good

> source... currently it's pretty high but like everything

> else will come down... (remember when HGH first hit the

> market?)

>

> if I get similar results I'll just alternate weeks with HCG

> to avoid desensitization... give it a month for a trial (2

> pops a week just before my weekly test shot)... then

> alternate (HCG -will- be significantly cheaper short run)

> weeks after that.

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

I am not trying something unproven

Re: starting to move people to more aromasin

>

> Date: Sunday, January 23, 2011, 12:25 AM

>

> > Sounds like a great plain I do feel much better doing

> 12.5 to 25

> > mgs of Aromasin / day I have yet to go down to low for

> more then a

> > half a day.

>

> Hi,

>

> I've tried it for a couple of months when a trusted source

> had it on " sale " and it worked well for me (my insurance

> sucks in certain ways about what they will and won't cover,

> or they'll cover... 10$ on a 180$ prescription or...) and I

> must say I liked some aspects of it.

>

> I'm lucky the doc I work with is cool with me getting meds

> from " unusual " sources sometimes... he knows I mix the

> cypionate I've got a script for 1:1 with sustanon

[The entire original message is not included]

[Guest guest]

Yea I am the same way don't know much about it but it's not some thing new men

don't use it because of the cost.

You are talking about HMG Human menopausal gonadotropins (hMG) consist of

follicle stimulating hormone (FSH)

Co-Moderator

Phil

>

>  > From: jbbooks1901 <jbbooks1901@...>

>  > Subject: Re: starting to move people

> to more aromasin

>  >

>  > Date: Sunday, January 23, 2011, 12:25 AM

>  >

>  > > Sounds like a great plain I do feel much better

> doing

>  > 12.5 to 25

>  > > mgs of Aromasin / day I have yet to go down to

> low for

>  > more then a

>  > > half a day.

>  >

>  > Hi,

>  >

>  > I've tried it for a couple of months when a trusted

> source

>  > had it on " sale " and it worked well for me (my

> insurance

>  > sucks in certain ways about what they will and won't

> cover,

>  > or they'll cover... 10$ on a 180$ prescription or...)

> and I

>  > must say I liked some aspects of it.

>  >

>  > I'm lucky the doc I work with is cool with me getting

> meds

>  > from " unusual " sources sometimes... he knows I mix

> the

>  > cypionate I've got a script for 1:1 with sustanon

>

> [The entire original message is not included]

>

>

[Guest guest]

I am not taking anything away from hardas. He is a knowledgeable and decent read

online. I am grateful he shares and takes time to answer responses. Just want to

say this.

Re: Re: starting to move people to

> more aromasin

>

> 

> If you go to Dr. 's forum and send JanSZ a PM he knows

> a good sorce for HMG.

> http://www.musclechatroom.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?2-All-Things-Male

[The entire original message is not included]

[Guest guest]

Well taken you can speak your mind here.

Co-Moderator

Phil

>

> > From: uu1845@...

> <uu1845@...>

> > Subject: RE: Re: starting to move

> people to more aromasin

> >

> > Date: Sunday, January 23, 2011, 1:50 PM

> > I am not trying something unproven

> >

> > Re: Re: starting to move

> people to

> > more aromasin

> >

> > 

> > If you go to Dr. 's forum and send JanSZ a PM he

> knows

> > a good sorce for HMG.

> > http://www.musclechatroom.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?2-All-Things-Male

>

> [The entire original message is not included]

>

>

[Guest guest]

Phil, what's wrong with just taking some more HC at bedtime to see if that

lowers conversion of testosterone to estradiol? Sounds sooo complicated with

all that stuff you're being told to worry about.

It's feasible that cortisol is dropping too low at night. Some can have it

simply because they don't take enough cortisol before they sleep. Also, I

recall you take Xanax or the like before sleep and I've been told those meds

actually lower cortisol.

Pregnenolone has benefits even if you don't have the ACTH to tell it to go

down the adrenal hormone pathway. But, if it's going to estradiol, then that

ain't ideal!!

-Nigel

On 23 January 2011 10:01, philip georgian <pmgamer18@...> wrote:

>

>

> Nigel,

>

> I was on Preg. cream 12 weeks and my levels went up to 117 from very low.

> But my Cortisol levels never moved up or down. Then I ran out of Preg. and

> when I got more I got the wrong kind. I ended up with Prog. cream 20 mgs and

> I was feel great on this even though Dr. feels it should not be used by

> men.

>

> Well after about 6 weeks I found out what Dr. was saying and ended up

> with very high levels of Estraidol. And at the time this was happening my

> Drug Care plain sent me the Generic to Arimidex dam I was taking 2.5 mgs /

> day to keep my levels down. I felt this was the generic not the Prog. cream

> but I was wrong I stopped the Prog. cream and after 9 days my E2 levels came

> back down. So just to prove this I went back on the Prog. cream and by the

> next morning my E2 was a big problem again.

>

> So I went on Aromasin 25 mgs / day now this works great for me and I have

> yet to go to low.

>

> I was going to wait until I see my labs next Tue before I went back on the

> Preg. cream but after thinking about it having done my labs what would it

> hurt.

>

> So I went back on it using it the same way I did when I was on it 12 weeks.

> By the 3rd day my E2 was going nuts again. I posted about this and this is

> what chilln said.

> ====================================================

> With this much E2 generation, your cells are obviously depleted of the

> cortisol-production-line hormones (eg: preg, prog, cortisol).

>

> I can't see how allowing your cortisol-production-line hormones (eg: preg,

> prog, cortisol) to remain at such low levels, while suppressing E2 with

> arimidex or aromasin, could be of any benefit.

> ----------------------------------------------------

> And then this.

> ====================================================

> Newbies and lurkers please note. While pmgamer18 is trialling aromasin,

> he's only doing this because he's prepared to mess with his E2, but he's not

> prepared to address his cortisol and thyroid hormones at this time. Hopefuly

> pmgamer18 will return to modulating his E2 by boosting his cortisol and

> thryoid hormones, and demonstrate conclusively (to himself and his medical

> professional adviser) that it is indeed possible to completely downregulate

> E2 without aromasin or arimidex.

> ----------------------------------------------------

> Now I am not sure about this but I can't see how he feels some one that is

> Secondary and there Pituitary does not tell there Adrenals to make Cortisol.

> How is Preg. going to make it and enough.

> So this is what I posted back to him.

> ====================================================

> Chilln I have no choice here I am so high on E2 levels with out taking

> something for it I am having Panic Attacks day and night. I pray your Preg.

> Idea works and I treat my Thyroid and low Cortisol levels. Being on the

> Prog. cream I tired by mistake drove my E2 nuts. Then I am sent on my Drug

> plain the generic for Arimidex this stuff dose not work.

>

> I did do preg. cream 12 weeks my levels went up from low to 117 yet my

> Cortisol never moved. I stopped the Prog. cream some time ago. I was holding

> off going back on Preg. cream until I see my labs next Tue. But I tired it

> for 2 days I don't know why but it must have went into Prog. It went into E2

> again having sore and hard nipples with a lot of sweating and Waves of Panic

> feelings.

>

> Aromasin helps much better with E2 but I want to be off stuff to lower E2.

> So I stopped the Preg. cream today going to hold off on it until I see how

> my labs look next Tue.

>

> As for taking Aromasin to control my E2 what would you do if you know how

> Panic Attacks feel I think you would be doing the same thing I am.

>

> We come up with things over the yrs to try to lower E2 every time I try

> them I end up a mess I sure hope this time Preg. cream works.

>

> I did not see my Cortisol levels move up or down after being on Preg. cream

> 12 weeks and my Preg. levels went up. So how long are you talking about

> before one sees this work.

> ---------------------------------------------------

> Chilln says this.

> ===================================================

> Then that's because your adrenal enzymes are too sluggish and need to be

> invigorated with some T4 to flush your preg and prog into cortisol.

>

> This info wasn't spelled out in the Cortisol boost 101 primer when you

> first started supplementing with pregnenolone, and therefore you were ahead

> of the curve.

>

> Since that time we've discovered that when progesterone gets backed up,

> then it's time to boost those thyroid hormones.

>

> Sorry we hadn't yet worked that out when you first tried preg. We know this

> now.

>

> In fact watching pregnenolone supplementation cause prog to get " backed up "

> is the best method we have of identifying when T4 levels are mismatched to

> cortisol levels (ie: the best method we have of identifying when T4 levels

> are too low for existing cortisol levels).

>

> Your E2 metabolism increased because your prog got backed up. High prog

> triggers upregulation of E2 receptors without a corresponding increase in E2

> serum levels, but you still needed more arimidex / aromasin to combat this

> effect.

>

> ###

>

> I've been updating the primers daily, and the latest incarnation of the

> Cortisol boost 101, part 3, includes the following (bold is copied from the

> primer, not added afterwards)

>

> Originally Posted by chilln

> If you've found your " top up " sweet spot, and either:

> a) your sleep hasn't improved adequately,

> or

> your energy hasn't improved adequately,

> or:

> c) your E2 hasn't been lowered sufficiently,

> then:

> your pregnenolone or progesterone are most likely getting backed up, so now

> you need to introduce the boost to your thyroid hormones to invigorate your

> adrenal enzymes to synthesize all of your preg and prog into cortisol,

> without backing up

>

> Boosting thyroid hormones is the second step in the overall step-by-step

> hormone modulation therapy explained in the Hormones 101 primer.

> Last edited by chilln; 1 Day Ago at 01:39 AM.

> ----------------------------------------------------

> Then JanSz jumps in more or less saying I am not going by labs because I

> can's scan my labs and post them. Saying this makes me mad.

> ====================================================

> I see lots of speculations and few hard numbers.

> You, Phil are doing blood tests every 6 weeks (year in year out), on

> continuous basis for at least last 20 years.

> It is about time to get a good set of analytes and keep doing them and

> posting them including exact protocol that was used prior to blood draw.

>

> So when you are saying that you have a high preg or high prog (or even E2),

> that is not a fact,

> that is just a guess (until you back up your statements with numbers).

>

> All we know for sure is that your RT3 is high.

> ----------------------------------------------------

> My reply to him.

> ====================================================

> I give up I don't give out speculations about my levels when I sit and type

> my labs because I can't scan them you tell me do Urine labs or SpectraCell

> or some other kind of lab that is not covered by my BCBS. I have been told

> to lower my Testosterone dose and crashed doing this. I tried Preg. cream my

> E2 levels are still way to high by my dam labs and my Cortisol levels are

> not moving up where they are going to lower my E2 levels

>

> Come on I am game to try things but when they don't work it's me not

> telling the true story?????????????

>

> How many Secondary men on this forum doing Preg. were able to stop HC meds

> and not need to treat there High E2 levels. Unless I am missing some thing I

> don't see it.

> ---------------------------------------------------

> And I said this.

> -------------------------------------------------

> I can't help but feel you and chilln saying doing Preg. will up Cortiosl

> levels for me when I am Hypopituitary, and I say this over and over again my

> Adreanls work fine just don't get told to work so I have low Cortisol

> levels. So much so they have put me in the ER suffering from Adrenal Crisis

> where if they did not read my card I carry with me about this. And not given

> me a shot of Medrol I would not be here.

>

> Just how much Cortisol do you guys see in men like me going up from Preg.

> So far I have not seen it and I am starting to think it's not going to

> happen. I mean if your not getting Cortisol from your Adrenals how much do

> you think Preg. can convert into.

>

> What I am saying is Preg. is not going to tell my Adreanls to make more

> Cortisol it's not going to happen.

> ----------------------------------------------------

> So this is the last reply to me from Chilln and I don't feel there idea

> about doing Preg. is going to work on people that are Secondary if any one

> knows better every you Hard if your reading this give me a heads up. Chilln

> is not telling me to take T3 I am on T3 5mcg 2x's/day if I go up to 3 x's

> per day I go hyper.

> ==================================================

> Re: Aromasin

> Originally Posted by pmgamer18

> I am on 150 mcgs of generic Synthroid

>

> my last set of labs were.

>

> T4 (Thyroxine), Total 8.4 top of range is 12.5 mcg/dL.

> Free T4 Index (T7) 2.6 top of range is 3.8.

> T4 Free 1.3 top of range is 1.8.

> My RT3 is high due to my pain from Statin Drug damage to my muscles. RT3 is

> 38 top of range is 32 ng/dL. But it is down from my last set of labs 2

> months ago of 41.

>

> So if I went up on the Synthroid should I try 1/4 extra of the pill and go

> from there.

> Chilln says.

> ----------------------------------------------------

> I recommend optimizing just with either compounded-slow-release-T3, or

> straight-T3, before changing T4 dosages.

>

> Adjustments to T4 dosages take around 2 weeks to achieve stable serum

> levels, so I recommend putting up with frequent T3 dosing initially, and

> getting the best synergy going between thyroid hormone T3 and cortisol (eg:

> lowering of E2, bettter erecion performance). Note that supplemeting with

> frequent doses of either compounded-slow-release-T3 or straight-T3 will

> result in sparing of T4 ! So you will actually get more stable thyroid

> hormone metabolism than you might initially think.

>

> After you get the optimum synergy between T3 and cortisol (via preg or prog

> supplementation) then that's when it's time to swap out some of the T3 for

> T4. The swapping process will also require time and interation to get the

> doses optimum. Provided we hold off swapping from T3 to T4 until after we've

> experienced optimization, then we'll know all of the right symptoms to look

> for.

>

> ###

>

> Eventually you'll even be able to swap out some of the preg / prog for HC,

> but only swap preg / prog AFTER you've finished swapping T3 for T4.

>

> ....(i) Always optimize the cortisol-production-line hormones first using

> transdermal preg or prog (not HC) because transdermal preg / prog are

> absorbed more slowly than HC, so they're less likely to cause a sudden onset

> of drownsiness (ACTH sppression) if they're dosed a little too high.

>

> ...(ii) Always optimize the cortisol-production-line hormones first using

> transdermal preg or prog (not HC) because transdermal preg / prog give us an

> excellent indication of when thyroid hormones are too low ! In that when

> either preg or prog get backed up, then we know for sure that our thyroid

> hormones are too low (as you have discovered).

> ---------------------------------------------------

>

> Originally Posted by pmgamer18

> And how many days to see if it works.

> Chilln says.

> ---------------------------------------------------

> That depends on how quickly you can ramp up your serum T3 levels.

>

> But the fastest outcome for a normal metabolizer is still no less than 2

> weeks because frequent T3 supplementation (eg: every 4 hours) will spare T4,

> and adjusting T4 levels (either directly or indirectly via " sparing " ) still

> takes 2 weeks to stabilize.

>

> I was able to achieve stability in 1 week because I'm a fast metabolizer.

> ----------------------------------------------------

>

> Originally Posted by pmgamer18

> Still I am going to hold off until I see my Dr. Tue. and see my labs - I

> will post them.

>

> I feel better today so thats a plus.

> Thanks I am going to keep trying

>

> this E2 is killing me.

> Chilln says.

> -------------------------------------------

> noted

>

> .

> Last edited by chilln; 8 Hours Ago at 03:14 AM.

>

> It sure would be great to just do Preg. cream and not need HC meds or to

> take meds to control E2. So far I don't see this happening.

>

> Co-Moderator

> Phil

>

[Guest guest]

Nigel,

You make some good points I am taking 5 mgs of HC at bedtime chilln told me to

try this and it helped. I also do my shots in the morning when I wake up to go

to the bathroom about 4 to 5 am and at this time I take my meds 10 mgs of HC and

my shots of T or HCG. So I can't for the life of me see how this problem I am

having is due to low Cortiol at night. And I can't see Preg. converting into

that much Cortiol.

And you know this is the first I ever heard low Cortiol levels at night making

your T meds convert into E2.

I am in a lot of pain due to the damage the Statin Drugs did and on Pain meds.

I don't think it's the pain meds when I got out of the hosp. from Heart surgery

2 yrs ago I was on pain meds for 6 months due to a big bad bed sore on my back

side. At that them I did not have this Estradiol problem.

My T levels went down 4 months ago from the pain I am in. My Dr. has upped my T

shot from 70 mgs every 3 days to 80 mgs then 100 mgs. This is when all the

problems started with the E2 but the higher dose of Arimidex was taking care of

it. Until the dam E2 started rebounding on me. I have in the last week cut my

shot back to 80 mgs from 100 but it's too soon to tell if this will work.

I have yet to see anything doing a search that says high lower levels if

Cortisol at night make E2 go up.

Co-Moderator

Phil

>

> >

> >

> > Nigel,

> >

> > I was on Preg. cream 12 weeks and my levels went up to

> 117 from very low.

> > But my Cortisol levels never moved up or down. Then I

> ran out of Preg. and

> > when I got more I got the wrong kind. I ended up with

> Prog. cream 20 mgs and

> > I was feel great on this even though Dr. feels it

> should not be used by

> > men.

> >

> > Well after about 6 weeks I found out what Dr. was

> saying and ended up

> > with very high levels of Estraidol. And at the time

> this was happening my

> > Drug Care plain sent me the Generic to Arimidex dam I

> was taking 2.5 mgs /

> > day to keep my levels down. I felt this was the

> generic not the Prog. cream

> > but I was wrong I stopped the Prog. cream and after 9

> days my E2 levels came

> > back down. So just to prove this I went back on the

> Prog. cream and by the

> > next morning my E2 was a big problem again.

> >

> > So I went on Aromasin 25 mgs / day now this works

> great for me and I have

> > yet to go to low.

> >

> > I was going to wait until I see my labs next Tue

> before I went back on the

> > Preg. cream but after thinking about it having done my

> labs what would it

> > hurt.

> >

> > So I went back on it using it the same way I did when

> I was on it 12 weeks.

> > By the 3rd day my E2 was going nuts again. I posted

> about this and this is

> > what chilln said.

> > ====================================================

> > With this much E2 generation, your cells are obviously

> depleted of the

> > cortisol-production-line hormones (eg: preg, prog,

> cortisol).

> >

> > I can't see how allowing your cortisol-production-line

> hormones (eg: preg,

> > prog, cortisol) to remain at such low levels, while

> suppressing E2 with

> > arimidex or aromasin, could be of any benefit.

> > ----------------------------------------------------

> > And then this.

> > ====================================================

> > Newbies and lurkers please note. While pmgamer18 is

> trialling aromasin,

> > he's only doing this because he's prepared to mess

> with his E2, but he's not

> > prepared to address his cortisol and thyroid hormones

> at this time. Hopefuly

> > pmgamer18 will return to modulating his E2 by boosting

> his cortisol and

> > thryoid hormones, and demonstrate conclusively (to

> himself and his medical

> > professional adviser) that it is indeed possible to

> completely downregulate

> > E2 without aromasin or arimidex.

> > ----------------------------------------------------

> > Now I am not sure about this but I can't see how he

> feels some one that is

> > Secondary and there Pituitary does not tell there

> Adrenals to make Cortisol.

> > How is Preg. going to make it and enough.

> > So this is what I posted back to him.

> > ====================================================

> > Chilln I have no choice here I am so high on E2 levels

> with out taking

> > something for it I am having Panic Attacks day and

> night. I pray your Preg.

> > Idea works and I treat my Thyroid and low Cortisol

> levels. Being on the

> > Prog. cream I tired by mistake drove my E2 nuts. Then

> I am sent on my Drug

> > plain the generic for Arimidex this stuff dose not

> work.

> >

> > I did do preg. cream 12 weeks my levels went up from

> low to 117 yet my

> > Cortisol never moved. I stopped the Prog. cream some

> time ago. I was holding

> > off going back on Preg. cream until I see my labs next

> Tue. But I tired it

> > for 2 days I don't know why but it must have went into

> Prog. It went into E2

> > again having sore and hard nipples with a lot of

> sweating and Waves of Panic

> > feelings.

> >

> > Aromasin helps much better with E2 but I want to be

> off stuff to lower E2.

> > So I stopped the Preg. cream today going to hold off

> on it until I see how

> > my labs look next Tue.

> >

> > As for taking Aromasin to control my E2 what would you

> do if you know how

> > Panic Attacks feel I think you would be doing the same

> thing I am.

> >

> > We come up with things over the yrs to try to lower E2

> every time I try

> > them I end up a mess I sure hope this time Preg. cream

> works.

> >

> > I did not see my Cortisol levels move up or down after

> being on Preg. cream

> > 12 weeks and my Preg. levels went up. So how long are

> you talking about

> > before one sees this work.

> > ---------------------------------------------------

> > Chilln says this.

> > ===================================================

> > Then that's because your adrenal enzymes are too

> sluggish and need to be

> > invigorated with some T4 to flush your preg and prog

> into cortisol.

> >

> > This info wasn't spelled out in the Cortisol boost 101

> primer when you

> > first started supplementing with pregnenolone, and

> therefore you were ahead

> > of the curve.

> >

> > Since that time we've discovered that when

> progesterone gets backed up,

> > then it's time to boost those thyroid hormones.

> >

> > Sorry we hadn't yet worked that out when you first

> tried preg. We know this

> > now.

> >

> > In fact watching pregnenolone supplementation cause

> prog to get " backed up "

> > is the best method we have of identifying when T4

> levels are mismatched to

> > cortisol levels (ie: the best method we have of

> identifying when T4 levels

> > are too low for existing cortisol levels).

> >

> > Your E2 metabolism increased because your prog got

> backed up. High prog

> > triggers upregulation of E2 receptors without a

> corresponding increase in E2

> > serum levels, but you still needed more arimidex /

> aromasin to combat this

> > effect.

> >

> > ###

> >

> > I've been updating the primers daily, and the latest

> incarnation of the

> > Cortisol boost 101, part 3, includes the following

> (bold is copied from the

> > primer, not added afterwards)

> >

> > Originally Posted by chilln

> > If you've found your " top up " sweet spot, and either:

> > a) your sleep hasn't improved adequately,

> > or

> > your energy hasn't improved adequately,

> > or:

> > c) your E2 hasn't been lowered sufficiently,

> > then:

> > your pregnenolone or progesterone are most likely

> getting backed up, so now

> > you need to introduce the boost to your thyroid

> hormones to invigorate your

> > adrenal enzymes to synthesize all of your preg and

> prog into cortisol,

> > without backing up

> >

> > Boosting thyroid hormones is the second step in the

> overall step-by-step

> > hormone modulation therapy explained in the Hormones

> 101 primer.

> > Last edited by chilln; 1 Day Ago at 01:39 AM.

> > ----------------------------------------------------

> > Then JanSz jumps in more or less saying I am not going

> by labs because I

> > can's scan my labs and post them. Saying this makes me

> mad.

> > ====================================================

> > I see lots of speculations and few hard numbers.

> > You, Phil are doing blood tests every 6 weeks (year in

> year out), on

> > continuous basis for at least last 20 years.

> > It is about time to get a good set of analytes and

> keep doing them and

> > posting them including exact protocol that was used

> prior to blood draw.

> >

> > So when you are saying that you have a high preg or

> high prog (or even E2),

> > that is not a fact,

> > that is just a guess (until you back up your

> statements with numbers).

> >

> > All we know for sure is that your RT3 is high.

> > ----------------------------------------------------

> > My reply to him.

> > ====================================================

> > I give up I don't give out speculations about my

> levels when I sit and type

> > my labs because I can't scan them you tell me do Urine

> labs or SpectraCell

> > or some other kind of lab that is not covered by my

> BCBS. I have been told

> > to lower my Testosterone dose and crashed doing this.

> I tried Preg. cream my

> > E2 levels are still way to high by my dam labs and my

> Cortisol levels are

> > not moving up where they are going to lower my E2

> levels

> >

> > Come on I am game to try things but when they don't

> work it's me not

> > telling the true story?????????????

> >

> > How many Secondary men on this forum doing Preg. were

> able to stop HC meds

> > and not need to treat there High E2 levels. Unless I

> am missing some thing I

> > don't see it.

> > ---------------------------------------------------

> > And I said this.

> > -------------------------------------------------

> > I can't help but feel you and chilln saying doing

> Preg. will up Cortiosl

> > levels for me when I am Hypopituitary, and I say this

> over and over again my

> > Adreanls work fine just don't get told to work so I

> have low Cortisol

> > levels. So much so they have put me in the ER

> suffering from Adrenal Crisis

> > where if they did not read my card I carry with me

> about this. And not given

> > me a shot of Medrol I would not be here.

> >

> > Just how much Cortisol do you guys see in men like me

> going up from Preg.

> > So far I have not seen it and I am starting to think

> it's not going to

> > happen. I mean if your not getting Cortisol from your

> Adrenals how much do

> > you think Preg. can convert into.

> >

> > What I am saying is Preg. is not going to tell my

> Adreanls to make more

> > Cortisol it's not going to happen.

> > ----------------------------------------------------

> > So this is the last reply to me from Chilln and I

> don't feel there idea

> > about doing Preg. is going to work on people that are

> Secondary if any one

> > knows better every you Hard if your reading this give

> me a heads up. Chilln

> > is not telling me to take T3 I am on T3 5mcg 2x's/day

> if I go up to 3 x's

> > per day I go hyper.

> > ==================================================

> > Re: Aromasin

> > Originally Posted by pmgamer18

> > I am on 150 mcgs of generic Synthroid

> >

> > my last set of labs were.

> >

> > T4 (Thyroxine), Total 8.4 top of range is 12.5

> mcg/dL.

> > Free T4 Index (T7) 2.6 top of range is 3.8.

> > T4 Free 1.3 top of range is 1.8.

> > My RT3 is high due to my pain from Statin Drug damage

> to my muscles. RT3 is

> > 38 top of range is 32 ng/dL. But it is down from my

> last set of labs 2

> > months ago of 41.

> >

> > So if I went up on the Synthroid should I try 1/4

> extra of the pill and go

> > from there.

> > Chilln says.

> > ----------------------------------------------------

> > I recommend optimizing just with either

> compounded-slow-release-T3, or

> > straight-T3, before changing T4 dosages.

> >

> > Adjustments to T4 dosages take around 2 weeks to

> achieve stable serum

> > levels, so I recommend putting up with frequent T3

> dosing initially, and

> > getting the best synergy going between thyroid hormone

> T3 and cortisol (eg:

> > lowering of E2, bettter erecion performance). Note

> that supplemeting with

> > frequent doses of either compounded-slow-release-T3 or

> straight-T3 will

> > result in sparing of T4 ! So you will actually get

> more stable thyroid

> > hormone metabolism than you might initially think.

> >

> > After you get the optimum synergy between T3 and

> cortisol (via preg or prog

> > supplementation) then that's when it's time to swap

> out some of the T3 for

> > T4. The swapping process will also require time and

> interation to get the

> > doses optimum. Provided we hold off swapping from T3

> to T4 until after we've

> > experienced optimization, then we'll know all of the

> right symptoms to look

> > for.

> >

> > ###

> >

> > Eventually you'll even be able to swap out some of the

> preg / prog for HC,

> > but only swap preg / prog AFTER you've finished

> swapping T3 for T4.

> >

> > ....(i) Always optimize the cortisol-production-line

> hormones first using

> > transdermal preg or prog (not HC) because transdermal

> preg / prog are

> > absorbed more slowly than HC, so they're less likely

> to cause a sudden onset

> > of drownsiness (ACTH sppression) if they're dosed a

> little too high.

> >

> > ...(ii) Always optimize the cortisol-production-line

> hormones first using

> > transdermal preg or prog (not HC) because transdermal

> preg / prog give us an

> > excellent indication of when thyroid hormones are too

> low ! In that when

> > either preg or prog get backed up, then we know for

> sure that our thyroid

> > hormones are too low (as you have discovered).

> > ---------------------------------------------------

> >

> > Originally Posted by pmgamer18

> > And how many days to see if it works.

> > Chilln says.

> > ---------------------------------------------------

> > That depends on how quickly you can ramp up your serum

> T3 levels.

> >

> > But the fastest outcome for a normal metabolizer is

> still no less than 2

> > weeks because frequent T3 supplementation (eg: every 4

> hours) will spare T4,

> > and adjusting T4 levels (either directly or indirectly

> via " sparing " ) still

> > takes 2 weeks to stabilize.

> >

> > I was able to achieve stability in 1 week because I'm

> a fast metabolizer.

> > ----------------------------------------------------

> >

> > Originally Posted by pmgamer18

> > Still I am going to hold off until I see my Dr. Tue.

> and see my labs - I

> > will post them.

> >

> > I feel better today so thats a plus.

> > Thanks I am going to keep trying

> >

> > this E2 is killing me.

> > Chilln says.

> > -------------------------------------------

> > noted

> >

> > .

> > Last edited by chilln; 8 Hours Ago at 03:14 AM.

> >

> > It sure would be great to just do Preg. cream and not

> need HC meds or to

> > take meds to control E2. So far I don't see this

> happening.

> >

> > Co-Moderator

> >  Phil

> >

>

>

>