Re: Heading to the docs (UK) this week and could use some advice please...

[Guest guest]

Well finally I have my lab results from the 12th Oct.

Not good news. In fact it's exactly where I feared I would be. Low enough to

have symptoms (although symptoms have improved slightly over the last few weeks)

but not low enough to get treatment.

Here they are:

Serum Test:10.5nmol/L (8-27)

Serum SHBG:24nmol/L (13-71)

LH:2.1u/L (1.5-18.1)

FSH:4.0u/L (1.4-18.1)

Prolactin:51mu/L (45-375)

TSH:2.0mu/L (0.3-5.5)

Cortisol:193nmol/L (110-530)

Oestodiol(Not sure this is the right method for male):68pmol/L (upto 191)

Assuming an albumin level of 4.3g/dl my calculated free test is 0.244nmol/L and

bioavailable is 5.72nmol/L.

I got the above from the ISSAM website. I.m not sure of the effect of the

albumin assumption.

I think my next step is to get re-tested. Due to how testosterone fluctuates I

need to get another measurement. After all it's just a snapshot. Any endo would

expect 2 results before accepting a referral. Also the lab testing methods are

notoriously inaccurate in borderline cases so an average of 2 would give me a

better idea.

[Guest guest]

Chirs I att. a file that shows you T levels by age your 13 is the range for a

man over 100 yrs old you need to make your case with them Dr.'s. Tell him about

this show him this chart.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: blackers1100 <blackers1100@...>

> Subject: Re: Heading to the docs (UK) this week and could use

some advice please...

>

> Date: Friday, October 22, 2010, 4:33 PM

> Well finally I have my lab results

> from the 12th Oct.

>

> Not good news. In fact it's exactly where I feared I would

> be. Low enough to have symptoms (although symptoms have

> improved slightly over the last few weeks) but not low

> enough to get treatment.

>

> Here they are:

>

> Serum Test:10.5nmol/L (8-27)

> Serum SHBG:24nmol/L (13-71)

> LH:2.1u/L (1.5-18.1)

> FSH:4.0u/L (1.4-18.1)

> Prolactin:51mu/L (45-375)

> TSH:2.0mu/L (0.3-5.5)

> Cortisol:193nmol/L (110-530)

> Oestodiol(Not sure this is the right method for

> male):68pmol/L (upto 191)

>

> Assuming an albumin level of 4.3g/dl my calculated free

> test is 0.244nmol/L and bioavailable is 5.72nmol/L.

>

> I got the above from the ISSAM website. I.m not sure of the

> effect of the albumin assumption.

>

> I think my next step is to get re-tested. Due to how

> testosterone fluctuates I need to get another measurement.

> After all it's just a snapshot. Any endo would expect 2

> results before accepting a referral. Also the lab testing

> methods are notoriously inaccurate in borderline cases so an

> average of 2 would give me a better idea.

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Sorry Phil, I can't understand what you are referring to here.

>

> > From: blackers1100 <blackers1100@...>

> > Subject: Re: Heading to the docs (UK) this week and could use

some advice please...

> >

> > Date: Friday, October 22, 2010, 4:33 PM

> > Well finally I have my lab results

> > from the 12th Oct.

> >

> > Not good news. In fact it's exactly where I feared I would

> > be. Low enough to have symptoms (although symptoms have

> > improved slightly over the last few weeks) but not low

> > enough to get treatment.

> >

> > Here they are:

> >

> > Serum Test:10.5nmol/L (8-27)

> > Serum SHBG:24nmol/L (13-71)

> > LH:2.1u/L (1.5-18.1)

> > FSH:4.0u/L (1.4-18.1)

> > Prolactin:51mu/L (45-375)

> > TSH:2.0mu/L (0.3-5.5)

> > Cortisol:193nmol/L (110-530)

> > Oestodiol(Not sure this is the right method for

> > male):68pmol/L (upto 191)

> >

> > Assuming an albumin level of 4.3g/dl my calculated free

> > test is 0.244nmol/L and bioavailable is 5.72nmol/L.

> >

> > I got the above from the ISSAM website. I.m not sure of the

> > effect of the albumin assumption.

> >

> > I think my next step is to get re-tested. Due to how

> > testosterone fluctuates I need to get another measurement.

> > After all it's just a snapshot. Any endo would expect 2

> > results before accepting a referral. Also the lab testing

> > methods are notoriously inaccurate in borderline cases so an

> > average of 2 would give me a better idea.

> >

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi

i'm in the UK too and thought I'd chip in here if that's ok.

Firstly, I have a lot of body hair too but low T: last test was 8.2 (9-27), few

weeks ago it was 10, last year it was 9, you get the picture! hasn't affected

body hair. i think it's a problem no one seems to understand, i don't know if

it's genetic, or maybe some kind of way of body upregulating DHT maybe, maybe

dht upregulates if not enough testosterone? I really don't know enough about

it.

Secondly, your dr sounds crap, she may be nice, but she sounds crap. She is NOT

an expert on hormones, and it is utter rubbish to say that your 'depression' is

causing your testosterone to lower. what next ? if you saw a psychiatrist,

would they tell you that " you don't want to be a man any longer as you feel

jealous of your new baby on a subconscious level so you're mind is telling your

body to lower your testosterone " . please do fight this nonsense.

Thirdly, look at this link from the Oxford Journal.

http://humupd.oxfordjournals.org/content/10/5/409.full.pdf+html

It talks about " Male hypogonadism is a clinical syndrome complex defined by low

testosterone [i.e. serum total testosterone ,10–12 nmol/l (,2.88–3.46 ng/ml)]

and low sperm production. It may be

caused by hypothalamic, pituitary, testicular, or target organ disorders, which

can be congenital "

You fall within thar range, so do i. this is a respected journal that states

what hypogonadism range is. I would really push for an endo consultation, and

get as many tests done on the nhs as possible. Ther is a good private endo in

the east midlands. I saw him and he said my T was too low for someone age 31 -

it was 10.2 i think.

Also there is the androids.org.uk site

I am now fighting to get proper diagnosis and treatment on the NHS. if notthing

else i'm trying to get all the expensive tests so i can go back and see the

private endo and he can prescribe hopefully.

have you had other tests done like IGF-1? i gatehr that if you're hypopituitary

you might have low levels of this too, and if any of your results are low, then

you can push for a referral.

Don't let them beat you or tell you are normal without a full and proper

investigation by an expert. GPs are NOT experts. I had problems sleeping all

last year, and was told it was all stress, but i pushed for a referral

suspecting sleep apnea and i had a *severe* case, so i was right.

you know your own body and mind, they don't. don't let them convince you

otherwise. if your gp won't refer you to an nhs endo, ask for a referral to a

private one (a good one) - they might be able to ask for you to be assessed for

imbalances and it might be your way in.

chris

[Guest guest]

I sent you a reply by Email with an Attach File called Testosterone levels by

age if you did not read this in your Email you will not see the Attached File.

Anyway the file shows levels by age it only goes down to 13 and this is the

level for men over age 100 your level is 10 in range and your Dr. is telling you

your OK. All I am saying is ask him how he would like to live with T levels of

a man 100 yrs old for the rest of his life.

The file is in the files section from the home page on the left side of you

screen called " Testosterone Levels by Age in Men .doc.

Reading the chart " Measurements in European Units (nmol/L) " man age 100 have

levels of 13 for Total T.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: blackers1100 <blackers1100@...>

> Subject: Re: Heading to the docs (UK) this week and could use

some advice please...

>

> Date: Friday, October 22, 2010, 8:07 PM

> Sorry Phil, I can't understand what

> you are referring to here.

>

>

> >

> > > From: blackers1100 <blackers1100@...>

> > > Subject: Re: Heading to the docs

> (UK) this week and could use some advice please...

> > >

> > > Date: Friday, October 22, 2010, 4:33 PM

> > > Well finally I have my lab results

> > > from the 12th Oct.

> > >

> > > Not good news. In fact it's exactly where I

> feared I would

> > > be. Low enough to have symptoms (although

> symptoms have

> > > improved slightly over the last few weeks) but

> not low

> > > enough to get treatment.

> > >

> > > Here they are:

> > >

> > > Serum Test:10.5nmol/L (8-27)

> > > Serum SHBG:24nmol/L (13-71)

> > > LH:2.1u/L (1.5-18.1)

> > > FSH:4.0u/L (1.4-18.1)

> > > Prolactin:51mu/L (45-375)

> > > TSH:2.0mu/L (0.3-5.5)

> > > Cortisol:193nmol/L (110-530)

> > > Oestodiol(Not sure this is the right method for

> > > male):68pmol/L (upto 191)

> > >

> > > Assuming an albumin level of 4.3g/dl my

> calculated free

> > > test is 0.244nmol/L and bioavailable is

> 5.72nmol/L.

> > >

> > > I got the above from the ISSAM website. I.m not

> sure of the

> > > effect of the albumin assumption.

> > >

> > > I think my next step is to get re-tested. Due to

> how

> > > testosterone fluctuates I need to get another

> measurement.

> > > After all it's just a snapshot. Any endo would

> expect 2

> > > results before accepting a referral. Also the lab

> testing

> > > methods are notoriously inaccurate in borderline

> cases so an

> > > average of 2 would give me a better idea.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ------------------------------------

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

There's also this, which is an extract from that link i posted. Germany is the

most useful one as if you lived there you'd probably get a trial of T?

Country Lower limit of `normal' serum total testosterone

==========================================================

Germany 10 nmol/l (2.88 ng/ml). When concentrations are between

10 and 12 nmol/l (3.46 ng/ml) additional testing is required

(Behre et al., 2000)

France 7.5 nmol/l (2.16 ng/ml)

UK 7.5–8 nmol/l (2.16–2.30 ng/ml)

Spain 9 nmol/l (2.59 ng/ml)

European urologists say: http://www.androids.org.uk/hypogonadism1.pdf

" Since symptoms of testosterone

deficiency become manifest between 12 and 8 nmol/L, trials of treatment can be

considered in those in

whom alternative causes of these symptoms have been excluded. (Since there are

variations in the

reagents and normal ranges between different laboratories, the cutoff values

given for serum

2 JUNE 2005

testosterone and free testosterone may have to be adjusted depending on the

reference values given

by each laboratory). "

interesting to hear i have levels of T less than someone 3 times my age. kind of

figures, since i don't feel so good, either

chris

>

> I sent you a reply by Email with an Attach File called Testosterone levels by

age if you did not read this in your Email you will not see the Attached File.

Anyway the file shows levels by age it only goes down to 13 and this is the

level for men over age 100 your level is 10 in range and your Dr. is telling you

your OK. All I am saying is ask him how he would like to live with T levels of

a man 100 yrs old for the rest of his life.

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the advice Phil & Chris. It's much appreciated.

I tried to get in the docs this morning but by the time i got through all the

appointments had gone. I'll try again tomorrow morning.

I need to get another test result to confirm where I'm at first and then I'll

push for a referral.

I'm a little confused as some people say see an endo and others say see a

urologist. My thoughts were that since I have some T and my LH is low I would be

better with an endo, but not sure.

I also intend to ask my GP if she will prescribe based on a private docs

recommendation as that would be the quickest/easiest route to treatment. I can

imagine an NHS endo will have a 3month waiting list!! Or a waiting list so long

he might cherry pick the patients that most need help and reject others. I'm

speculating of course.

Anyway, thanks again. I'll keep updating this same topic so that others in the

UK seeking treatment can follow it start to (hopefully) finish.

Regards

Mark

[Guest guest]

H Mark

Good luck, please do let me know how you get on

chris

>

> Thanks for the advice Phil & Chris. It's much appreciated.

>

> I tried to get in the docs this morning but by the time i got through all the

appointments had gone. I'll try again tomorrow morning.

>

> I need to get another test result to confirm where I'm at first and then I'll

push for a referral.

>

> I'm a little confused as some people say see an endo and others say see a

urologist. My thoughts were that since I have some T and my LH is low I would be

better with an endo, but not sure.

>

> I also intend to ask my GP if she will prescribe based on a private docs

recommendation as that would be the quickest/easiest route to treatment. I can

imagine an NHS endo will have a 3month waiting list!! Or a waiting list so long

he might cherry pick the patients that most need help and reject others. I'm

speculating of course.

>

> Anyway, thanks again. I'll keep updating this same topic so that others in the

UK seeking treatment can follow it start to (hopefully) finish.

>

> Regards

> Mark

>

[Guest guest]

Mark in the UK see the Endo.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: blackers1100 <blackers1100@...>

> Subject: Re: Heading to the docs (UK) this week and could use

some advice please...

>

> Date: Tuesday, October 26, 2010, 2:06 PM

> Thanks for the advice Phil &

> Chris. It's much appreciated.

>

> I tried to get in the docs this morning but by the time i

> got through all the appointments had gone. I'll try again

> tomorrow morning.

>

> I need to get another test result to confirm where I'm at

> first and then I'll push for a referral.

>

> I'm a little confused as some people say see an endo and

> others say see a urologist. My thoughts were that since I

> have some T and my LH is low I would be better with an endo,

> but not sure.

>

> I also intend to ask my GP if she will prescribe based on a

> private docs recommendation as that would be the

> quickest/easiest route to treatment. I can imagine an NHS

> endo will have a 3month waiting list!! Or a waiting list so

> long he might cherry pick the patients that most need help

> and reject others. I'm speculating of course.

>

> Anyway, thanks again. I'll keep updating this same topic so

> that others in the UK seeking treatment can follow it start

> to (hopefully) finish.

>

> Regards

> Mark

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Another update. BTW I hope it is OK that I'm using this as a blog to track my

progress with this.

I managed to get to the docs this morning. I had anticipated resistance because

my result was 'in range' and had a well rehearsed plan of attack. As it happens

none of it was necessary.

I showed her the graph of T levels against age from the files section and also I

showed her 'Age-Related Changes in Testosterone and the Role of Replacement'

which has T against age data from 4 studies. (Deslypere & Vermeulen, 1984),

(Simon et al., 1992), (Vermeulen et al., 1996) and Leifke et al., 2000) all of

which show average TT level for my age to be around 20-21nmol/L. That was my

arguement for my levels being low.

I also took the EU guidlines which support a TRT trial for patients with TT

between 8 & 12nmol/L.

With that she was happy to refer me. She hadn't referred anyone with low T

before so said she needed to ring the Urology & endocrinology departments at the

local hospital to find out which had the most experience with TRT.

I am back in tomorrow to give a 2nd blood sample, to confirm LH & TT. I had some

information with me on inaccuracy of measuring T in borderline cases to justify

the retest but it wasn't necessary.

I have a follow up appointment booked for the 16th to review my new labs and

also find out the result of her calls to the hospital.

I asked briefly about doctors' attitudes towards patients who internet research

and request a certain treatment. She agreed it was an issue that some doctors

didn't like being told their job. She also added that because I had well sourced

information and my approach was reasonable and not 'I DEMAND TREATMENT

BECAUSE...' that I should be OK. I know that shouldn't be an issue but we all

have egos right?

I also asked about what support I would get if I went private. She said I was

still an NHS patient so as long as it was a reputable endo/uro she would be

happy to request any blood tests needed on the NHS.

All in all, a good result. There's a long way to go yet but at least my GP is

on-side.

[Guest guest]

Hi Mark

I for one am interested in how you get on

That is good that you got referred today, I am still waiting for a 2nd

appointment, ages after being referred. it's a joke!

>I also asked about what support I would get if I went private. She said I was

still an NHS patient so as long as it was a reputable endo/uro she would be

happy to request any blood tests needed on the NHS.

You're very lucky! my GP would not do any tests needed on the NHS for the

private endo i saw. she's awful.

chris

>

> Another update. BTW I hope it is OK that I'm using this as a blog to track my

progress with this.

>

> I managed to get to the docs this morning. I had anticipated resistance

because my result was 'in range' and had a well rehearsed plan of attack. As it

happens none of it was necessary.

>

> I showed her the graph of T levels against age from the files section and also

I showed her 'Age-Related Changes in Testosterone and the Role of Replacement'

which has T against age data from 4 studies. (Deslypere & Vermeulen, 1984),

(Simon et al., 1992), (Vermeulen et al., 1996) and Leifke et al., 2000) all of

which show average TT level for my age to be around 20-21nmol/L. That was my

arguement for my levels being low.

>

> I also took the EU guidlines which support a TRT trial for patients with TT

between 8 & 12nmol/L.

>

> With that she was happy to refer me. She hadn't referred anyone with low T

before so said she needed to ring the Urology & endocrinology departments at the

local hospital to find out which had the most experience with TRT.

>

> I am back in tomorrow to give a 2nd blood sample, to confirm LH & TT. I had

some information with me on inaccuracy of measuring T in borderline cases to

justify the retest but it wasn't necessary.

>

> I have a follow up appointment booked for the 16th to review my new labs and

also find out the result of her calls to the hospital.

>

> I asked briefly about doctors' attitudes towards patients who internet

research and request a certain treatment. She agreed it was an issue that some

doctors didn't like being told their job. She also added that because I had well

sourced information and my approach was reasonable and not 'I DEMAND TREATMENT

BECAUSE...' that I should be OK. I know that shouldn't be an issue but we all

have egos right?

>

> I also asked about what support I would get if I went private. She said I was

still an NHS patient so as long as it was a reputable endo/uro she would be

happy to request any blood tests needed on the NHS.

>

> All in all, a good result. There's a long way to go yet but at least my GP is

on-side.

>

[Guest guest]

Great news I allways say your more you learn about this the better off you are

with your Dr.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: blackers1100 <blackers1100@...>

> Subject: Re: Heading to the docs (UK) this week and could use

some advice please...

>

> Date: Wednesday, October 27, 2010, 2:23 PM

> Another update. BTW I hope it is OK

> that I'm using this as a blog to track my progress with

> this.

>

> I managed to get to the docs this morning. I had

> anticipated resistance because my result was 'in range' and

> had a well rehearsed plan of attack. As it happens none of

> it was necessary.

>

> I showed her the graph of T levels against age from the

> files section and also I showed her 'Age-Related Changes in

> Testosterone and the Role of Replacement' which has T

> against age data from 4 studies. (Deslypere & Vermeulen,

> 1984), (Simon et al., 1992), (Vermeulen et al., 1996) and

> Leifke et al., 2000) all of which show average TT level for

> my age to be around 20-21nmol/L. That was my arguement for

> my levels being low.

>

> I also took the EU guidlines which support a TRT trial for

> patients with TT between 8 & 12nmol/L.

>

> With that she was happy to refer me. She hadn't referred

> anyone with low T before so said she needed to ring the

> Urology & endocrinology departments at the local

> hospital to find out which had the most experience with

> TRT.

>

> I am back in tomorrow to give a 2nd blood sample, to

> confirm LH & TT. I had some information with me on

> inaccuracy of measuring T in borderline cases to justify the

> retest but it wasn't necessary.

>

> I have a follow up appointment booked for the 16th to

> review my new labs and also find out the result of her calls

> to the hospital.

>

> I asked briefly about doctors' attitudes towards patients

> who internet research and request a certain treatment. She

> agreed it was an issue that some doctors didn't like being

> told their job. She also added that because I had well

> sourced information and my approach was reasonable and not

> 'I DEMAND TREATMENT BECAUSE...' that I should be OK. I know

> that shouldn't be an issue but we all have egos right?

>

> I also asked about what support I would get if I went

> private. She said I was still an NHS patient so as long as

> it was a reputable endo/uro she would be happy to request

> any blood tests needed on the NHS.

>

> All in all, a good result. There's a long way to go yet but

> at least my GP is on-side.

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Has anyone here heard of balance problems related to testosterone?

My father has told me of some of his symptom and I suspect he may have low test

also. His most recent complaint was his balance which I haven't heard of being

caused by low T.

[Guest guest]

It's hard to say low T means weak muscles and this can mess with ones balance.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: blackers1100 <blackers1100@...>

> Subject: Re: Heading to the docs (UK) this week and could use

some advice please...

>

> Date: Thursday, November 11, 2010, 2:03 PM

> Has anyone here heard of balance

> problems related to testosterone?

>

> My father has told me of some of his symptom and I suspect

> he may have low test also. His most recent complaint was his

> balance which I haven't heard of being caused by low T.

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Of course yes. Weak muscles, low energy could cause poor balance.

Also he eats very poorly. Usually 2 meals a day. This could be causing low blood

sugar at points in the day. I've lost count of the times I've commented on his

eating. He has an obsession with the fat on his waste. He is not overweight at

all but he used to be which means he has excess skin around his waste covered in

stretch marks.

He is not very open about any of his problems, I get it 2nd hand from his wife.

Very frustrating.

[Guest guest]

Low thyroid can cause this.

>

> Has anyone here heard of balance problems related to testosterone?

>

> My father has told me of some of his symptom and I suspect he may have low

test also. His most recent complaint was his balance which I haven't heard of

being caused by low T.

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

If he has low Testosterone, he could have high Estradiols. High Estradiols

could cause water retention which could cause fluid in the ears.

At one point after starting TRT, I was getting feelings of being off balance

and sometimes feelings of dizziness. My primary doctor said he could see

fluid in my ears. My hormone doctor said that my high estradiols were

causing the trouble and that I should increase my Arimidex dosage. I did

increase the Arimidex and the feelings went away in a couple of days.

From: [mailto: ]

On Behalf Of blackers1100

Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 1:04 PM

Subject: Re: Heading to the docs (UK) this week and could use

some advice please...

Has anyone here heard of balance problems related to testosterone?

My father has told me of some of his symptom and I suspect he may have low

test also. His most recent complaint was his balance which I haven't heard

of being caused by low T.

[Guest guest]

Thanks , interesting.

There's no way of getting his estrodiol levels checked on the NHS - wrong type

of test. I don't know about private labs that will do this in the UK.

Barb, He has had a thyroid check but here in the UK they check thyroid function

by measuring TSH alone!!!! and so that has been ruled out!?! Idiots.

Hopefully he will confide in me and I can research and give him some guidance.

[Guest guest]

Older people need to eat and drink water a lot of them walk around dehydrated.

Low sugar levels will make you weak, shaky and even sweat.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: blackers1100 <blackers1100@...>

> Subject: Re: Heading to the docs (UK) this week and could use

some advice please...

>

> Date: Thursday, November 11, 2010, 3:40 PM

> Of course yes. Weak muscles, low

> energy could cause poor balance.

>

> Also he eats very poorly. Usually 2 meals a day. This could

> be causing low blood sugar at points in the day. I've lost

> count of the times I've commented on his eating. He has an

> obsession with the fat on his waste. He is not overweight at

> all but he used to be which means he has excess skin around

> his waste covered in stretch marks.

>

> He is not very open about any of his problems, I get it 2nd

> hand from his wife. Very frustrating.

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

I haven't updated this thread for a few months since things generally progress

slowly with the NHS.

My GP referred me to a sexual health clinic rather than a Uro or Endo. I

questioned this but she said he would have the most experience with TRT.

I was interrogated about my sex life past and present.

Gave a urine sample and had my blood pressure checked.

Then he looked at my most recent TT result - 12.5nmol/l. I hadn't seen this

before and was shocked to see it so high (previous results 10.5, 8 & 6.5).

At this point I thought I was stuffed and he said 'Test measurements aren't

really important because some people can be happy and fully functional on 10 and

some need much 20 to feel the same, It's all about how you feel, your symptoms.

To say I was shocked was an understatement. I had prepared myself to argue about

how meaningless lab ref ranges are.

At this point he said 'In your case I think you are right to request TRT' and

with that prescribed me Testogel 5g sachets 50mg dose.

Here's the kicker. He said they don't prescribe T long term because of

complications. This is a 3-6month course of treatment aimed at resetting your

normal level of T production. The theory here is that T is hugely influenced by

a persons mental attitude. This I don't despute. By artificially boosted my T my

mental attitude towards sex would be changed as my labido increased. I would

then be weaned off T gel and my HPT axis would kick in at a new higher level.

I don't quite know what to make of that concept. I have never read of it but

then I haven't read much specifically into the psychology of sex.

I do know that he treats alot of patients and has done so for some time so must

have experience of this working.

I raised the issue of H-P shutdown and he said it isn't normally a problem with

this duration of treatment.

He also said I should notice a drastic change in myself within 3 weeks. If not I

should stop taking it straight away and we will discuss another option.

Interesting eh?

[Guest guest]

He might know what he needs to do to get your HPTA recovery back.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en & lr= & q=hpta+recovery & aq=7 & aqi=g2g-s2g5g-s1 & aql\

= & oq=HPTa

I say give it a try see how it goes and read this file on starting on this low

dose you need to test in 2 weeks you can end up lower then you started.

=================================================

Starting on Androgel or Testim.

Yes this happens a lot you start on a low starting dose 5 grams when your brain

sees the testosterone in your blood even just a little it slows down even stops

sending the LH and FSH message to your testis to make the Testosterone you were

making. So lets say your labs for Total T were 350 you add this dose of gel

your brain sees this and you lose the base level you had before the gel.

Now lets say you need more then 5 grams most do so now all your left with is

what the gel is doing so lets say it's doing 200 so you lost 150.

The reason you feel good is your levels go up that 200 the gel is doing in the

first 2 weeks so your levels go up to 550 in theory. The brain sees this and

you fall back.

Why can this happen it might be how your putting on the gel with Androgel you

need to spread it over your upper arms and shoulders and down your back as far

as you can reach this is half of your dose then do the other side. Just spread

it over the area but don't rub it in.

The other thing is it's not getting through your skin good so you need more. If

you have a thyroid problem your skin will become thicker and gels and creams

don't get through the skin and you need to switch to shots.

I tell men when they go on Gels to retest in 2 weeks because you can end up

feeling worse. Most men just need more gel. Dr.'s that tell men to go on 5

grams of gel and come back in 8 to 12 weeks for labs don't know much about the

use of gels. Dr.'s that treat a lot of men for low T on gels see this happen

and test them again in 2 weeks.

When you go to do labs get up and shower that morning go do your labs and then

put in the gel after your blood test so you don’t spike up your labs. If you

can’t do labs in the morning shower put on the gel but don’t get any gel on

the spot they take the blood from. Do your labs about 6 hrs later.

Call your Dr. and tell him this and that your not feeling good you were but fell

back.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: blackers1100 <blackers1100@...>

> Subject: Re: Heading to the docs (UK) this week and could use

some advice please...

>

> Date: Thursday, February 24, 2011, 10:50 AM

> I haven't updated this thread for a

> few months since things generally progress slowly with the

> NHS.

>

> My GP referred me to a sexual health clinic rather than a

> Uro or Endo. I questioned this but she said he would have

> the most experience with TRT.

>

> I was interrogated about my sex life past and present.

> Gave a urine sample and had my blood pressure checked.

> Then he looked at my most recent TT result - 12.5nmol/l. I

> hadn't seen this before and was shocked to see it so high

> (previous results 10.5, 8 & 6.5).

> At this point I thought I was stuffed and he said 'Test

> measurements aren't really important because some people can

> be happy and fully functional on 10 and some need much 20 to

> feel the same, It's all about how you feel, your symptoms.

> To say I was shocked was an understatement. I had prepared

> myself to argue about how meaningless lab ref ranges are.

>

> At this point he said 'In your case I think you are right

> to request TRT' and with that prescribed me Testogel 5g

> sachets 50mg dose.

>

> Here's the kicker. He said they don't prescribe T long term

> because of complications. This is a 3-6month course of

> treatment aimed at resetting your normal level of T

> production. The theory here is that T is hugely influenced

> by a persons mental attitude. This I don't despute. By

> artificially boosted my T my mental attitude towards sex

> would be changed as my labido increased. I would then be

> weaned off T gel and my HPT axis would kick in at a new

> higher level.

>

> I don't quite know what to make of that concept. I have

> never read of it but then I haven't read much specifically

> into the psychology of sex.

>

> I do know that he treats alot of patients and has done so

> for some time so must have experience of this working.

>

> I raised the issue of H-P shutdown and he said it isn't

> normally a problem with this duration of treatment.

>

> He also said I should notice a drastic change in myself

> within 3 weeks. If not I should stop taking it straight away

> and we will discuss another option.

>

> Interesting eh?

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Firstly how can I recover what I never had or at least never had since my teens.

Surely he can't be suggesting it is possible to restore to teen levels.

Secondly all HPTA recovery I've read involves a LH or gonadatropin substitute.

At the end of the day I stay as I am or I take the option that's given to me and

see where it leads.

Guess I'll gel up tomorrow then.

[Guest guest]

Keep us posted how your doing like I said you can fall very low on the starting

dose of 5 grams so if you feel better the first week then fall back the next

call your Dr.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: blackers1100 <blackers1100@...>

> Subject: Re: Heading to the docs (UK) this week and could use

some advice please...

>

> Date: Friday, February 25, 2011, 8:10 AM

> Firstly how can I recover what I

> never had or at least never had since my teens. Surely he

> can't be suggesting it is possible to restore to teen

> levels.

> Secondly all HPTA recovery I've read involves a LH or

> gonadatropin substitute.

> At the end of the day I stay as I am or I take the option

> that's given to me and see where it leads.

> Guess I'll gel up tomorrow then.

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi

Interested to hear of your experiences...can you email me off line to tell me

which dr / clinic you went to?

i am trying to find treatment in UK, been on sustanon and feel better.

one of the drs i've spoken to says the 3-6 month thing just doesn't work.

i don't see how it's going to work....

i have tried the gel inbetween sustanon, and it doesn't seem to have much of a

kick to it, whereas the sustanon does.

don't be fobbed off by seeing rubbish drs - get expert advice from urologist or

endo is what i suggest.

>The theory here is that T is hugely influenced by a persons mental attitude.

This I don't despute.

I do dispute that, we are not yogic mystics who can influence our bodies like

that, sorry but i totally disagree.

chris

>

> I haven't updated this thread for a few months since things generally progress

slowly with the NHS.

>

> My GP referred me to a sexual health clinic rather than a Uro or Endo. I

questioned this but she said he would have the most experience with TRT.

>

> I was interrogated about my sex life past and present.

> Gave a urine sample and had my blood pressure checked.

> Then he looked at my most recent TT result - 12.5nmol/l. I hadn't seen this

before and was shocked to see it so high (previous results 10.5, 8 & 6.5).

> At this point I thought I was stuffed and he said 'Test measurements aren't

really important because some people can be happy and fully functional on 10 and

some need much 20 to feel the same, It's all about how you feel, your symptoms.

To say I was shocked was an understatement. I had prepared myself to argue about

how meaningless lab ref ranges are.

>

> At this point he said 'In your case I think you are right to request TRT' and

with that prescribed me Testogel 5g sachets 50mg dose.

>

> Here's the kicker. He said they don't prescribe T long term because of

complications. This is a 3-6month course of treatment aimed at resetting your

normal level of T production. The theory here is that T is hugely influenced by

a persons mental attitude. This I don't despute. By artificially boosted my T my

mental attitude towards sex would be changed as my labido increased. I would

then be weaned off T gel and my HPT axis would kick in at a new higher level.

>

> I don't quite know what to make of that concept. I have never read of it but

then I haven't read much specifically into the psychology of sex.

>

> I do know that he treats alot of patients and has done so for some time so

must have experience of this working.

>

> I raised the issue of H-P shutdown and he said it isn't normally a problem

with this duration of treatment.

>

> He also said I should notice a drastic change in myself within 3 weeks. If not

I should stop taking it straight away and we will discuss another option.

>

> Interesting eh?

>

[Guest guest]

> Interested to hear of your experiences...can you email me off line to tell me

which dr / clinic you went to?

Will do Chris.

> I do dispute that, we are not yogic mystics who can influence our bodies like

that, sorry but i totally disagree.

I know what ur saying, we all know about the placebo effect. It doesn't mean we

can tune in and make things happen how and when we want, right?

I do believe however that not being confident in sexual performance say because

of an embarrasing past experience or maybe penis size issues could result in

subconciously lowering LH output so as not to get you in a situation where you

would be needed to perform. If you follow.

I wonder if this is the route the doctor is trying to explore. I would have

thought this would be better achieved with HCG or Clomphene though.