Re: Questions Re Absorbability of testosterone Gels

[Guest guest]

If your question is why is finger tip testosterone levels 10x that of vein blood

levels, um, how do you think you apply topical testosterone?

Barb

" cvictorg " <cvgrashow@...> wrote:

> Specifically, with reference to the use of topical testosterone gels in men at

the 50-150 mg dosage, we find mean capillary (finger tip) blood levels of

testosterone to be about 5000 ng/dL, approximately 10 x higher than the

venipuncture serum blood levels reported in the NEJM study (574 +/- 403 ng/dL).

[Guest guest]

Barb - genius - I NEVER THOUGHT OF THAT - many thanks

>

> > Specifically, with reference to the use of topical testosterone gels in men

at the 50-150 mg dosage, we find mean capillary (finger tip) blood levels of

testosterone to be about 5000 ng/dL, approximately 10 x higher than the

venipuncture serum blood levels reported in the NEJM study (574 +/- 403 ng/dL).

>

[Guest guest]

I am not sure what your question is first Saliva or Blood Spot labs are no good

for testing Sex Hormones this is nothing new. Just talk to Dr.'s that treat a

lot of men. Blood labs are best when first testing then some Dr.'s go by 24 hrs

urine labs.

As for Gels when you put on the gel it stays just under your skin for about 4 to

6 hrs feeding the testosterone into your blood slow. So if you put on the gel

then do labs in less then 6 hrs you can get very high readings. And if the gel

is on the spot they take the blood from this can spike up labs even days later.

I was on TRT for 27 yrs when I had Heart Bypass Surgery I died 5 x's needed to

be opened up due to infections 5 x's and had to be kept in a coma 13 weeks

because the Heart Surgeon took me off TRT just before the sugary even though it

said not to take me off TRT.

In his mind he felt the Testosterone meds would interfere with his sugary. Now

he know better after dam near Killing me.

Men should not go on TRT just to feel younger they only should be on it because

there levels are so low it's not supporting there body.

And like the Heart Dr. that Did my surgery there are a lot of Dr.'s that don't

feel men need Testosterone ever and put this crap on the web about what they

believe in.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: cvictorg <cvgrashow@...>

> Subject: Questions Re Absorbability of testosterone Gels

>

> Date: Saturday, February 12, 2011, 7:32 PM

>

http://david-zava.blogspot.com/2010/07/testosterone-elixir-or-dangerous-drug.htm\

l

>

> Let's look at some assumptions made about using

> conventional venous serum to monitor how much testosterone

> is entering the body following topical testosterone therapy.

> It is " assumed " that when testosterone is delivered as a

> topical gel only 10% is absorbed and utilized by the body.

> This is based on measuring the total amount of testosterone

> that can be detected in venous serum over a specific time

> frame, usually about 12-24 hours, after the testosterone has

> been applied to the skin. With this conventional wisdom of

> 10% absorption, topical testosterone gel has been

> FDA-approved at a pharmacological dose about 10 times higher

> (50-100 mg) than the amount a healthy young male's testes

> will manufacture in a day, which is about 5-10 mg of

> testosterone.

>

> What evidence do we have that the pharmacological dose

> (50-150 mg) of topical testosterone used in the NEJM study

> was actually " delivering " a physiological dose of

> testosterone into the tissues of these older men? The

> correct answer is none. This would require measuring the

> levels of testosterone in different tissue biopsies, which

> for obvious reasons is not practical and such studies would

> not likely find many volunteers.

>

>

> However, there are other means to look a little closer at

> " tissue " exposure to testosterone, which is to measure the

> level in the fluid of tissues bathed by capillary beds

> (blood flowing to tissues and delivering nutrients and

> hormones) as opposed to blood flowing away from tissues

> (i.e. venous blood). Capillary blood and saliva provide the

> next-best alternative as they are easily accessible body

> fluids that are more representative of the direct

> interaction of capillary beds with tissues (6,7).

>

> In mining this extensive database, we find that when

> steroid hormones are produced endogenously by the ovaries

> and testes and released into the bloodstream the levels in

> venous blood serum are quantitatively equivalent to whole

> capillary blood drawn from the finger (7). Under the same

> conditions, salivary hormones are about 2-3% of venous serum

> or capillary blood hormone levels, as reported extensively

> in the literature (6).

>

> In contrast to what we see with endogenously produced

> hormones, when testosterone, or any other steroid hormone,

> is applied topically as a cream, gel, or spray, levels in

> capillary blood (finger) are remarkably higher, by 10-20

> fold, than venous blood levels. Moreover, salivary hormones

> are often >100% of venous serum levels, which ordinarily

> are only 2-3%. This remarkable increase in capillary blood

> and salivary testosterone is NOT seen when it, or other

> hormones, are delivered orally, or as im-injections or

> sc-pellet implants. With these delivery systems capillary

> blood and venous serum levels are about the same.

>

> This discrepancy in venous serum vs capillary blood and

> salivary hormone levels following topical hormone delivery

> has created enormous confusion among physicians attempting

> to interpret hormone test results. Those using venous serum

> are often frustrated that pharmacological dosing, as seen in

> the NEJM article, only leads to lower to mid-physiological

> serum testosterone levels, but side effects such as

> excessive buildup of red blood cells associated with

> pharmacological dosing. On the other side, those using

> saliva and capillary blood testing are shocked to see that

> pharmacological dosing leads to pharmacological levels much

> higher than expected.

>

> Specifically, with reference to the use of topical

> testosterone gels in men at the 50-150 mg dosage, we find

> mean capillary (finger tip) blood levels of testosterone to

> be about 5000 ng/dL, approximately 10 x higher than the

> venipuncture serum blood levels reported in the NEJM study

> (574 +/- 403 ng/dL).

>

> Of further relevance to the NEJM study, we find that men

> using the higher pharmacological topical testosterone gel

> have capillary blood levels of estradiol that usually exceed

> 100 pg/ml, which is very high for males. While physiological

> levels of estrogens are beneficial to the male

> cardiovascular system, higher levels can be harmful (8).

> Unfortunately, estrogens were not monitored in the NEJM

> study so it is not possible to know if levels, even in

> venous serum, were higher than physiological range. It is

> very possible that some of the cardiovascular events

> observed in the older high risk men participating in the

> NEJM study were precipitated by excess estrogens derived

> from excess testosterone.

>

> houghts and opinions are appreciated as I am confused.

>

>

>

>

>

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