Re: I need help on thyroid

[Guest guest]

My labs on desiccated have always shown low FT4 relative to FT3. That is the

lab of someone who needs to add T4 to equalize the T4/T3 ratio. If you had to

add T3 to get your numbers into optimal ranges, then dropping the additional T3

will likely leave you too low in T3.

Here is what I believe about T4 ranges. Mid+ is better. In Quest ranges of

..8-1.8, optimal would be about 1.2-1.5. If you are bipolar, then taking FT4

over range may help. This is a known treatment of psychiatarists. But if you

are not bipolar, then taking FT4 too high will create an imbalance, since you

are manually dosing, and your TSH cannot tell your thyroid to lower output if

too high. So I would question your wanting to get your FT4 too high.

Too much T3 is a problem for ME, I don't know that it is for others like you.

My labwork starts to get wonky as soon as I pass 1.5 grains, but obviously other

people take much more without problems. For example, my labs on 2.5 grains,

about 10 hours from last dose:

FT4 1.1 (.8-1.8)

FT3 492 (230-420)

Total T3 178 (76-181)

Total T4 9.8 (4.5-12.5)

TSH < .01

STTM'ers will say that I'm low cortisol and that's why my FT3 is high. Well

saliva cortisol labs show me as normal/high, and I was starting to feel hot and

bothered with fast heart rate, so no, it's not pooling, and AGAIN, WRONG advice.

I just needed to take a different proportion of T3 and T4 than desiccated

offers. If I had blindly followed their " everyone needs 3-5 grains " advice, I'd

end up in the ER.

Barb

>

> On 3 grains Nature-Throid and 25 mcg T3 (generic by Paddock) my FT4 is

> middle of the range and my FT3 is about the top of the range. Sounds about

> par for what I'm on. I defeat that cellulose with a cellulase enzyme called

> Candex and it really does work.

>

> I'd like to take less T3 and rely more on T4 converting to T3. I think I'd

> feel better and have a sharper mind with a higher T4 level. But, I still

> can't quite decide what the next step is. I've only been thinking about this

> for a few months now!

>

> I know I could lower T3 and increase Nature-Throid. However, I am concerned

> I'd get too much T2 by increasing natural thyroid. You know, pigs aren't

> humans and I wonder if there's not only more T3 but more T2 in their thyroid

> glands. I read that T2 increases the rate at which T4 converts. I'm not sure

> I want that if it means it will take even more T4 in natural than a

> synthetic product to get my T4 level up the same theoretical amount. Of

> course, I also can't say more natural thyroid would be a problem. Any

> comments?

>

> Regarding what I believe was T2, I've taken over the counter bovine thyroid

> (Nutri-Pak) in various doses. I didn't feel all that great from them and

> sort of felt more hypo with each dose. The feeling was not that of T4 or T3,

> but of something else thyroid. Therefore, I felt it reasonable to assume

> that's what more T2 feels like if you add cow thyroid whole glandular.

>

> So my question is what could be the next baby step? I can split my pills

> enough to lower my T3 dose down to 18.75 mcg (6.25 mcg less). I'm at a total

> loss how much natural or T4 to add to then make up for that loss in direct

> T3.

>

> Don't worry. I have been pondering this for months and so I'm not going to

> blindly change my thyroid dose just 'cause someone said to do this or that

> online. The only T4 I could take has to be something my doctor prescribes (I

> looked up some foreign T4 brands and they had fillers I can't risk taking),

> so I'd have to talk to him first anyway.

>

> Thanks.

>

> -Nigel

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I can tell you this are bodys love Pig Thyroid and it converts the T4 into T3

big time this is way most people on say the old Armour have lower levels of Free

T4 and higher levels of Free T3. When I was doing 4 grains of the old Armour my

Free T4 was .9 and my Free T3 was 3.9.

Yet today on genertic Synthroid 150 mgs with 5 mgs of T3 3x's a day I feel dam

good.

120 mg (2 grains) per day of Armour Thyroid (equivalent doses would be 200

mcg/day Synthroid/Levoxyl (T4) or 50 mcg/day Cytomel (T3)

So I ask myself what is better. I think the whole time I was on 4 grains of the

old Armour I was on the edge of being hyper.

Today my Free T4 is 1.2 and Free T3 is 3.0.

On the 4 grains of Armour my T3 was = to 100 mcgs /day. Yet I am doing fine on

15 mcgs / day.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: Nigel <nachonigel@...>

> Subject: I need help on thyroid

>

> Date: Tuesday, March 29, 2011, 11:55 PM

> On 3 grains Nature-Throid and 25 mcg

> T3 (generic by Paddock) my FT4 is

> middle of the range and my FT3 is about the top of the

> range. Sounds about

> par for what I'm on. I defeat that cellulose with a

> cellulase enzyme called

> Candex and it really does work.

>

> I'd like to take less T3 and rely more on T4 converting to

> T3. I think I'd

> feel better and have a sharper mind with a higher T4 level.

> But, I still

> can't quite decide what the next step is. I've only been

> thinking about this

> for a few months now!

>

> I know I could lower T3 and increase Nature-Throid.

> However, I am concerned

> I'd get too much T2 by increasing natural thyroid. You

> know, pigs aren't

> humans and I wonder if there's not only more T3 but more T2

> in their thyroid

> glands. I read that T2 increases the rate at which T4

> converts. I'm not sure

> I want that if it means it will take even more T4 in

> natural than a

> synthetic product to get my T4 level up the same

> theoretical amount. Of

> course, I also can't say more natural thyroid would be a

> problem. Any

> comments?

>

> Regarding what I believe was T2, I've taken over the

> counter bovine thyroid

> (Nutri-Pak) in various doses. I didn't feel all that great

> from them and

> sort of felt more hypo with each dose. The feeling was not

> that of T4 or T3,

> but of something else thyroid. Therefore, I felt it

> reasonable to assume

> that's what more T2 feels like if you add cow thyroid whole

> glandular.

>

> So my question is what could be the next baby step? I can

> split my pills

> enough to lower my T3 dose down to 18.75 mcg (6.25 mcg

> less). I'm at a total

> loss how much natural or T4 to add to then make up for that

> loss in direct

> T3.

>

> Don't worry. I have been pondering this for months and so

> I'm not going to

> blindly change my thyroid dose just 'cause someone said to

> do this or that

> online. The only T4 I could take has to be something my

> doctor prescribes (I

> looked up some foreign T4 brands and they had fillers I

> can't risk taking),

> so I'd have to talk to him first anyway.

>

> Thanks.

>

> -Nigel

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yeah, the pig thyroid does work and the body likes getting all those

hormones from a thyroid gland, even if it's not its own. So that does put

natural over synthetic.

But what backs up my concern is suggested in your labs, Phil. You were

getting 152 mcg T4 on 4 grains Armour and take 150 mcg T4 today. Yet, you

have a higher FT4 level now. It's true your TSH was like zero on Armour and

isn't now, but I still have to wonder if the T2 in natural thyroid enhances

T4 conversion to speed up.

So my concern is that backing off the synthetic T3 to take more natural

thyroid may not get my FT4 up enough if I keep my dose to where my FT3 is

about the top of the range, which is where it is now. My doctor seems to be

much more concerned about reverse T3 than I am (how ironic... I don't even

care to test it) and I fear he'll be very confused if I'd want to take more

T4 (if level could still improve within the range) and I'm taking just

desiccated thyroid in the future. He already suggested that if I feel hypo

that I could up T3 and lower to less than 3 grains. No, I need my brain to

work no be asleep!

That's why I've asked for an idea of how to move off so much synthetic T3

and I put the idea out there about adding synthetic T4 either alone or in

addition to raising natural thyroid dose.

My plan now is to move off Nature-Throid and take compounded Thyroid USP as

the same 3 grains daily with a filler like glycine. I'd like to retire the

cellulase enzyme as although it works, I still hate that there's tons of

cellulose in Nature-Throid. Since changing two things at once is a no no,

this would have to occur as a progressive switch before I even raised

desiccated higher and lowered T3. Now I just have to find a compounding

pharmacy that can do this for me. Ideas?

Thanks for any input on this. It may sound like I'm excessively worrying

about this, but it's really just been something I want to change that I've

been thinking about in the back of my head for about 3+ months now.

-Nigel

On 30 March 2011 12:08, philip georgian <pmgamer18@...> wrote:

>

>

> I can tell you this are bodys love Pig Thyroid and it converts the T4 into

> T3 big time this is way most people on say the old Armour have lower levels

> of Free T4 and higher levels of Free T3. When I was doing 4 grains of the

> old Armour my Free T4 was .9 and my Free T3 was 3.9.

>

> Yet today on genertic Synthroid 150 mgs with 5 mgs of T3 3x's a day I feel

> dam good.

>

> 120 mg (2 grains) per day of Armour Thyroid (equivalent doses would be 200

> mcg/day Synthroid/Levoxyl (T4) or 50 mcg/day Cytomel (T3)

>

> So I ask myself what is better. I think the whole time I was on 4 grains of

> the old Armour I was on the edge of being hyper.

>

> Today my Free T4 is 1.2 and Free T3 is 3.0.

>

> On the 4 grains of Armour my T3 was = to 100 mcgs /day. Yet I am doing fine

> on 15 mcgs / day.

> Co-Moderator

> Phil

>

>

>

> > From: Nigel <nachonigel@...>

> > Subject: I need help on thyroid

> >

> > Date: Tuesday, March 29, 2011, 11:55 PM

>

> > On 3 grains Nature-Throid and 25 mcg

> > T3 (generic by Paddock) my FT4 is

> > middle of the range and my FT3 is about the top of the

> > range. Sounds about

> > par for what I'm on. I defeat that cellulose with a

> > cellulase enzyme called

> > Candex and it really does work.

> >

> > I'd like to take less T3 and rely more on T4 converting to

> > T3. I think I'd

> > feel better and have a sharper mind with a higher T4 level.

> > But, I still

> > can't quite decide what the next step is. I've only been

> > thinking about this

> > for a few months now!

> >

> > I know I could lower T3 and increase Nature-Throid.

> > However, I am concerned

> > I'd get too much T2 by increasing natural thyroid. You

> > know, pigs aren't

> > humans and I wonder if there's not only more T3 but more T2

> > in their thyroid

> > glands. I read that T2 increases the rate at which T4

> > converts. I'm not sure

> > I want that if it means it will take even more T4 in

> > natural than a

> > synthetic product to get my T4 level up the same

> > theoretical amount. Of

> > course, I also can't say more natural thyroid would be a

> > problem. Any

> > comments?

> >

> > Regarding what I believe was T2, I've taken over the

> > counter bovine thyroid

> > (Nutri-Pak) in various doses. I didn't feel all that great

> > from them and

> > sort of felt more hypo with each dose. The feeling was not

> > that of T4 or T3,

> > but of something else thyroid. Therefore, I felt it

> > reasonable to assume

> > that's what more T2 feels like if you add cow thyroid whole

> > glandular.

> >

> > So my question is what could be the next baby step? I can

> > split my pills

> > enough to lower my T3 dose down to 18.75 mcg (6.25 mcg

> > less). I'm at a total

> > loss how much natural or T4 to add to then make up for that

> > loss in direct

> > T3.

> >

> > Don't worry. I have been pondering this for months and so

> > I'm not going to

> > blindly change my thyroid dose just 'cause someone said to

> > do this or that

> > online. The only T4 I could take has to be something my

> > doctor prescribes (I

> > looked up some foreign T4 brands and they had fillers I

> > can't risk taking),

> > so I'd have to talk to him first anyway.

> >

> > Thanks.

> >

> > -Nigel

>

[Guest guest]

How do you feel Nigel? Do you have hypoT symptoms?

What is your basal temp?

> >

> > > From: Nigel <nachonigel@...>

> > > Subject: I need help on thyroid

> > >

> > > Date: Tuesday, March 29, 2011, 11:55 PM

> >

> > > On 3 grains Nature-Throid and 25 mcg

> > > T3 (generic by Paddock) my FT4 is

> > > middle of the range and my FT3 is about the top of the

> > > range. Sounds about

> > > par for what I'm on. I defeat that cellulose with a

> > > cellulase enzyme called

> > > Candex and it really does work.

> > >

> > > I'd like to take less T3 and rely more on T4 converting to

> > > T3. I think I'd

> > > feel better and have a sharper mind with a higher T4 level.

> > > But, I still

> > > can't quite decide what the next step is. I've only been

> > > thinking about this

> > > for a few months now!

> > >

> > > I know I could lower T3 and increase Nature-Throid.

> > > However, I am concerned

> > > I'd get too much T2 by increasing natural thyroid. You

> > > know, pigs aren't

> > > humans and I wonder if there's not only more T3 but more T2

> > > in their thyroid

> > > glands. I read that T2 increases the rate at which T4

> > > converts. I'm not sure

> > > I want that if it means it will take even more T4 in

> > > natural than a

> > > synthetic product to get my T4 level up the same

> > > theoretical amount. Of

> > > course, I also can't say more natural thyroid would be a

> > > problem. Any

> > > comments?

> > >

> > > Regarding what I believe was T2, I've taken over the

> > > counter bovine thyroid

> > > (Nutri-Pak) in various doses. I didn't feel all that great

> > > from them and

> > > sort of felt more hypo with each dose. The feeling was not

> > > that of T4 or T3,

> > > but of something else thyroid. Therefore, I felt it

> > > reasonable to assume

> > > that's what more T2 feels like if you add cow thyroid whole

> > > glandular.

> > >

> > > So my question is what could be the next baby step? I can

> > > split my pills

> > > enough to lower my T3 dose down to 18.75 mcg (6.25 mcg

> > > less). I'm at a total

> > > loss how much natural or T4 to add to then make up for that

> > > loss in direct

> > > T3.

> > >

> > > Don't worry. I have been pondering this for months and so

> > > I'm not going to

> > > blindly change my thyroid dose just 'cause someone said to

> > > do this or that

> > > online. The only T4 I could take has to be something my

> > > doctor prescribes (I

> > > looked up some foreign T4 brands and they had fillers I

> > > can't risk taking),

> > > so I'd have to talk to him first anyway.

> > >

> > > Thanks.

> > >

> > > -Nigel

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Nigel,

On 4 grams of the old Armour I was getting 400 mcgs of T4 and 100 mcgs of T3.

This is from the bottom of this link.

http://www.thyroid-info.com/articles/woliner.htm

=================================================

120 mg (2 grains) per day of Armour Thyroid (equivalent doses would be 200

mcg/day Synthroid/Levoxyl (T4) or 50 mcg/day Cytomel (T3).

----------------------------------------------------

I am on much less then half what 4 grams of T4 would give and a lot less T3.

I agree with you there is this T4 called Tirosint in a gel cap try this. I

can't tell you how to come off T3 meds. I would do it by trying cutting the

dose by 1/4 taking my Temps is the avg temp of 3 x's per day falls your going

down to fast so the next day I would up it some. As your temps level off go

down more you temp might fall some and you can feel hypo but you will level off

fast if not you need to go back up a little.

I can't find anything about coming off a high dose of T3 and how to do it.

On the 4 grains of armour my Free T3 was up at 3.5, Free T4 was .8 and TSH was

..01.

Now I am at Free T3 of 3.1, Free T4 and TSH is 2.33 and I feel good.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> >

> > > From: Nigel <nachonigel@...>

> > > Subject: I need help on thyroid

> > >

> > > Date: Tuesday, March 29, 2011, 11:55 PM

> >

> > > On 3 grains Nature-Throid and 25 mcg

> > > T3 (generic by Paddock) my FT4 is

> > > middle of the range and my FT3 is about the top

> of the

> > > range. Sounds about

> > > par for what I'm on. I defeat that cellulose with

> a

> > > cellulase enzyme called

> > > Candex and it really does work.

> > >

> > > I'd like to take less T3 and rely more on T4

> converting to

> > > T3. I think I'd

> > > feel better and have a sharper mind with a higher

> T4 level.

> > > But, I still

> > > can't quite decide what the next step is. I've

> only been

> > > thinking about this

> > > for a few months now!

> > >

> > > I know I could lower T3 and increase

> Nature-Throid.

> > > However, I am concerned

> > > I'd get too much T2 by increasing natural

> thyroid. You

> > > know, pigs aren't

> > > humans and I wonder if there's not only more T3

> but more T2

> > > in their thyroid

> > > glands. I read that T2 increases the rate at

> which T4

> > > converts. I'm not sure

> > > I want that if it means it will take even more T4

> in

> > > natural than a

> > > synthetic product to get my T4 level up the same

> > > theoretical amount. Of

> > > course, I also can't say more natural thyroid

> would be a

> > > problem. Any

> > > comments?

> > >

> > > Regarding what I believe was T2, I've taken over

> the

> > > counter bovine thyroid

> > > (Nutri-Pak) in various doses. I didn't feel all

> that great

> > > from them and

> > > sort of felt more hypo with each dose. The

> feeling was not

> > > that of T4 or T3,

> > > but of something else thyroid. Therefore, I felt

> it

> > > reasonable to assume

> > > that's what more T2 feels like if you add cow

> thyroid whole

> > > glandular.

> > >

> > > So my question is what could be the next baby

> step? I can

> > > split my pills

> > > enough to lower my T3 dose down to 18.75 mcg

> (6.25 mcg

> > > less). I'm at a total

> > > loss how much natural or T4 to add to then make

> up for that

> > > loss in direct

> > > T3.

> > >

> > > Don't worry. I have been pondering this for

> months and so

> > > I'm not going to

> > > blindly change my thyroid dose just 'cause

> someone said to

> > > do this or that

> > > online. The only T4 I could take has to be

> something my

> > > doctor prescribes (I

> > > looked up some foreign T4 brands and they had

> fillers I

> > > can't risk taking),

> > > so I'd have to talk to him first anyway.

> > >

> > > Thanks.

> > >

> > > -Nigel

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Phil. Guess I'll just have to take the plunge. I emailed my doctor

and will see what he says. I already plan on dropping half my T3 dose for

3/4 grain Nature-Throid. I respond to T4 quickly and deplete it quickly, so

I'm not one that takes weeks to build the levels to see how I'll do. I'm

excited!! haha

I don't want to juggle three thyroid meds, so I want off the T3 first to go

to just desiccated and then I'll see if I need some T4 added.

Have you seen ones get their SHBG down from relying more on T4 and less on

T3 from their thyroid meds? I understand that too much T3 (as is often the

case) will drive up SHBG, but I thought this would occur on any thyroid med

regime if you dose yourself so high.

I meant the amount of thyroxine mcg you're swallowing is practically the

same now as it was on the 4 grains Armour, but note the higher FT4.

Metabolic activity will vary as you also have the T2 and T1 in desiccated.

This and the fact not everyone responds to T3 as they would to T4 (and vice

versa) are more than enough reasons not to use those dodgy conversion

charts!

-Nigel

On 1 April 2011 11:42, philip georgian <pmgamer18@...> wrote:

>

>

> Nigel,

>

> On 4 grams of the old Armour I was getting 400 mcgs of T4 and 100 mcgs of

> T3.

> This is from the bottom of this link.

> http://www.thyroid-info.com/articles/woliner.htm

> =================================================

> 120 mg (2 grains) per day of Armour Thyroid (equivalent doses would be 200

> mcg/day Synthroid/Levoxyl (T4) or 50 mcg/day Cytomel (T3).

> ----------------------------------------------------

> I am on much less then half what 4 grams of T4 would give and a lot less

> T3.

>

> I agree with you there is this T4 called Tirosint in a gel cap try this. I

> can't tell you how to come off T3 meds. I would do it by trying cutting the

> dose by 1/4 taking my Temps is the avg temp of 3 x's per day falls your

> going down to fast so the next day I would up it some. As your temps level

> off go down more you temp might fall some and you can feel hypo but you will

> level off fast if not you need to go back up a little.

>

> I can't find anything about coming off a high dose of T3 and how to do it.

>

> On the 4 grains of armour my Free T3 was up at 3.5, Free T4 was .8 and TSH

> was .01.

>

> Now I am at Free T3 of 3.1, Free T4 and TSH is 2.33 and I feel good.

> Co-Moderator

> Phil

>

>

>

> >

> > >

> > >

> > > I can tell you this are bodys love Pig Thyroid and it

> > converts the T4 into

> > > T3 big time this is way most people on say the old

> > Armour have lower levels

> > > of Free T4 and higher levels of Free T3. When I was

> > doing 4 grains of the

> > > old Armour my Free T4 was .9 and my Free T3 was 3.9.

> > >

> > > Yet today on genertic Synthroid 150 mgs with 5 mgs of

> > T3 3x's a day I feel

> > > dam good.

> > >

> > > 120 mg (2 grains) per day of Armour Thyroid

> > (equivalent doses would be 200

> > > mcg/day Synthroid/Levoxyl (T4) or 50 mcg/day Cytomel

> > (T3)

> > >

> > > So I ask myself what is better. I think the whole time

> > I was on 4 grains of

> > > the old Armour I was on the edge of being hyper.

> > >

> > > Today my Free T4 is 1.2 and Free T3 is 3.0.

> > >

> > > On the 4 grains of Armour my T3 was = to 100 mcgs

> > /day. Yet I am doing fine

> > > on 15 mcgs / day.

> > > Co-Moderator

> > > Phil

>

[Guest guest]

I think the bottom line here is not to bottom out TSH so your brain can make

it's own Thyroid. Yes people come down from very high levels of T3 found there

SHBG went back down as long as there Estradiol was not to high.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > I can tell you this are bodys love Pig

> Thyroid and it

> > > converts the T4 into

> > > > T3 big time this is way most people on say

> the old

> > > Armour have lower levels

> > > > of Free T4 and higher levels of Free T3.

> When I was

> > > doing 4 grains of the

> > > > old Armour my Free T4 was .9 and my Free T3

> was 3.9.

> > > >

> > > > Yet today on genertic Synthroid 150 mgs with

> 5 mgs of

> > > T3 3x's a day I feel

> > > > dam good.

> > > >

> > > > 120 mg (2 grains) per day of Armour Thyroid

> > > (equivalent doses would be 200

> > > > mcg/day Synthroid/Levoxyl (T4) or 50 mcg/day

> Cytomel

> > > (T3)

> > > >

> > > > So I ask myself what is better. I think the

> whole time

> > > I was on 4 grains of

> > > > the old Armour I was on the edge of being

> hyper.

> > > >

> > > > Today my Free T4 is 1.2 and Free T3 is 3.0.

> > > >

> > > > On the 4 grains of Armour my T3 was = to 100

> mcgs

> > > /day. Yet I am doing fine

> > > > on 15 mcgs / day.

> > > > Co-Moderator

> > > > Phil

> >

>

>

>