DIM

[Guest guest]

So sorry for your history with steroids, .

You should probably should get your E2 checked and also your free T.

Dont despair. Do you think your nerves got rattled when you had the

reaction to the steroids. Anxiety can play big time games with all that we are

as men. I have worked thru these issues. I hope this is not your case.

If its hormonal, then get complete testing and go for the gold to

straighten yourself out. I just know that for years I have known my estrogen

to be

high as this is a common problem with age. Indoplex DIM did nothing for

me and only when I began to experiment with arimidex did my wood return at

night and the morning.

Good luck. If you have an anxiety overlay, a good book to read is Bernie

Zilbergelds, The New Male Sexuality. He is a psychologist and a sex

therapist setting out lots of practical how to advice on lots of male issue,

anxiety included.

[Guest guest]

Thanks Phil

We hope you are back to your " young " self soon.

Phil, have you known any men like me who have experimented with Arimidex

while not being on any prescription TRT.

I plan to take it slow and use my nighttime and morning wood as gauges of

my hormonal balance. Do you have any advice for me, pro or con, on my use

of Arimidex while not on any TRT.

Again, I take a daily dose of ISA-Test which is a natural T booster. I am

in the gym big time and watch my diet, exercise and cardio function. I am

on alldaychemist Pharma tadalafil........one tablet every two days.

Each tablet of this tadalafil is about 8 mg or so of tadalafil when

compared to the very potent 20 mg Eli Lilly cialis sold here in the States.

That's the problem with some generics from ADC. They are not the potency they

say they are.

Any bones for me on my regimen???????......pun intended.......

[Guest guest]

Phil,

You said DIM does not lower E2 but converts bad estrogens to good estrogens

which are then eliminated via the liver. Which estrogens are bad and which are

good. If DIM does not lower E2, I don't see the benefit of taking it or how

that could improve the T/E ratio??

Thanks.

Bill

From: no_reply

Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 17:24:00 +0000

Subject: Re: Ques....TRT & cholesterol

I never heard of a TRH before.

> > >

> > > My husband was told that taking TRT that it may increase cholesteral

levels...not sure why that would happen,,,,is this true? If anyone could answer

this i'd appreciate.

> > > Thanks,

> > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Read up on it see for your self.

http://www.dimfaq.com/site/diagram.htm

http://www.dimfaq.com/index.htm

http://qualitycounts.com/fpdim.html

==================================================

Z�s Primer on TRT, HCG and E2 Management

May 18, 2005

Chapter 1 � Testosterone, TRT, and Estradiol (E2) 2

Chapter 2 � HCG and Dr. Shippen�s Protocol 4

Dr. Shippen�s Protocol 6

Chapter 3 � Clomid 9

Chapter 4 � Selegiline 10

Chapter 5 � E2 Management, DIM and Arimidex 11

Chapter 6 � Amazing How Balancing T and E Improved My Health 13

Chapter 7 � Adjusting DIM Dosage 15

Appendix � Average Total and Free Testosterone Levels in Men by Age Group

17

Chapter 1 � Testosterone, TRT, and Estradiol (E2)

Men produce less testosterone (T) as they get older. See the table of T levels

for men by age group in the Appendix of this primer.

T is vitally important to a man's health. Low testosterone (i.e., hypogonadism)

has been shown in scientific studies to lead to osteoporosis, atherosclerosis,

high LDL (bad) cholesterol and diabetes. Also, hypogonadism leads to erectile

dysfunction, loss of libido, lack of vitality, and depression. Read " The

Testosterone Syndrome " by Eugene Shippen, MD. Also, see

www.lef.org/protocols/prtcl-130.shtml

Testing laboratories in the US specify a normal range for blood levels of T of

about 300 to 1000 ng/dl. If your T measures below the bottom of the normal

range, your doctor will almost certainly suggest that you start testosterone

replacement therapy (TRT). T is administered in a variety of ways including

shots, patches, gels, pellets, creams, and lozenges. The goal of TRT is

generally to get your blood level of T into the upper half of the normal range.

Many doctors argue that the normal ranges used by testing laboratories are based

on studies that include much older men and, therefore, are not appropriate for

younger men. Further, many argue that hormone levels for older men should be

restored to youthful levels in order to maintain optimum health. Therefore, many

doctors today will begin TRT if a man's T is below about 450.

The Leydig cells in the testicles produce almost all of a man's T (95%). The

rest is produced by the adrenal glands. The amount of T produced by the

testicles is regulated by the hypothalamus/pituitary axis located at the base of

the brain. The receptors in the hypothalamus monitor the blood level of T and

the pituitary produces Lutenizing Hormone (LH) and Follicle Stimulating Hormone

(FSH) to signal the testicles to produce T and sperm, respectively.

When a man goes on TRT, the hypothalamus/pituitary axis senses the T in the

blood and stops producing LH and FSH, thereby, signaling the testicles to stop

producing T. In other words, TRT will completely shut down a man's T production.

In order to raise the man's T level to the desired range, the TRT program must

constitute the man's entire T needs except for the small amount supplied by the

adrenals. Therefore, TRT is an all-or-nothing proposition. You can�t just add

a little T.

Men convert a portion of their T to Estradiol (E2) via the action the aromatase

enzyme. This process, known as aromatization, increases as men get older. Many

doctors believe that excess E2 is related to hypogonadism and many other health

problems including prostate problems. However, this topic is relatively new and

not well known or understood.

Estrogen (E) means the family of female sex hormones including Estrone (E1),

Estradiol (E2), and Estriol (E3). E2 is by far the most powerful of these

hormones. As a result, Estradiol and Estrogen are often used interchangeably in

the literature.

Men on TRT tend to have elevated E2 levels, particularly men who take T via

shots. Moderately high E2 levels cause a number of negative health effects in

men. Very high E2 levels leads to gynocomastia (i.e., female-like breast

development). Therefore, men on TRT should have their levels of T and E2

monitored regularly. If E2 level is consistently high, an Estrogen management

protocol should be adopted.

E2 is also vitally important to men's health including bone and muscle

formation. Scientific studies have shown that men born without the gene to

aromatize suffer from the same list of chronic diseases of old age as men with

low T. Therefore, it appears that T and E work together as a team in men. Also,

E2 is necessary for libido in men.

Men also convert a portion of their T to Dihydrotestosterone (DHT) via the

action the 5alpha reductase enzyme. DHT is a very powerful form of T that

doesn't convert to E2. DHT cream is used as a form of TRT predominantly in

Europe, but hardly at all in the USA. Studies have shown that DHT

supplementation is safe and has a beneficial impact on prostate health and

urinary function.

Chapter 2 � HCG and Dr. Shippen�s Protocol

Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin (HCG) is a hormone found in men and women. Women

secrete large amounts of HCG during pregnancy and men secrete large amounts

during puberty.

HCG is administered as a form of TRT. HCG is an alternative to standard TRT in

men with low LH and FSH (i.e., secondary hypogonadism). To determine if you are

a candidate for HCG you must have a blood test showing low T, LH and FSH. This

blood test cannot be taken while you're on standard TRT because standard TRT

shuts down LH and FSH production and thereby distorts the test results.

Alternatively, a Clomid Stimulation Test can also demonstrate secondary

hypogonadism (see Chapter 3).

Rather than shutting down your body's natural T production system (like standard

TRT does), HCG stimulates it back towards normal function. Your body produces

it's own T. I believe that HCG is vastly superior to standard forms of TRT for

the following reasons:

1. Better mimics the body's own natural physiologic rhythm of T production.

2. Easier to maintain normal T levels when administered properly.

3. More physiologic T levels minimize excess estradiol production (i.e., reduces

aromatization).

4. Maintains normal size of testicles (in contrast, standard TRT shrinks the

testicles).

5. Stimulates sperm production (thereby increasing/restoring fertility). In

contrast, standard TRT reduces, if not eliminates, sperm production thereby

making you infertile.

6. Restores normal function to testicles - the benefits of normal testicular

function are not fully known. In his book " Saw Palmetto: Nature's Prostate

Healer " , Ray Sahelian, M.D. says that the testicles and the prostate exchange

enzymes. I don't know what purpose these enzymes serve, but I'd rather have them

working than not working.

The only disadvantage of HCG is that doctors are unaware of this excellent

alternative.

Doctors are usually down on what they are not up on. If you ask about HCG, many

doctors will give you a variety of lame, ill-conceived reasons for not

prescribing HCG. These excuses all add up to the fact that they don't know how

to administer it properly and don't want to take the time to learn. I wonder

what percentage of doctors would take the time to learn about HCG if they were

diagnosed with secondary hypogonadism?

Typical excuses for not prescribing HCG are (1) that the insurance company won't

pay for it and (2) it's expensive. Both are absolutely false. Most insurance

companies pay for it (if the doctor clearly states in writing that it's for

hypogonadism only) and it 's cheaper than most standard forms of TRT.

The current guidelines of the American Association of Clinical Endocrinologists

(AACE) indicate that HCG should only be prescribed when a man is interested in

fertility. As a result, most doctors will not prescribe HCG unless you tell them

you are currently trying to have children. The AACE guidelines can be found at:

www.aace.com/clin/guidelines/hypogonadism.pdf

These guidelines (written in 1996 and updated in 2002) are considered outdated

by many practitioners with respect to HCG therapy for the following reasons:

1. The guidelines call for intramuscular HCG injections. Subcutaneous injections

are much more convenient, much less painful and equally effective (see

discussion below and/or just ask the many men who inject HCG subcutaneously or

look at their blood test results).

2. The excessive HCG dosage levels suggested in the guidelines cause a variety

of problems as discussed throughout this primer. In particular, excessive HCG

dosages cause elevated estradiol (E2), which defeats many of the positive

effects of increased T.

3. The guidelines cite expense and inconvenience as the reasons why one wouldn't

use HCG otherwise. Aren't those my judgements to make? Of course they are! The

funny thing is, if I were injecting 2000 to 6000 IU per week intramuscularly, I

too would consider HCG therapy expensive and inconvenient, but also ineffective

(due to E2 overload). Duh?! But instead, I inject 410 IU/week subcutaneously and

find it to be inexpensive, convenient and highly effective.

Unfortunately, doctors are unwilling to stray too far from their professional

guidelines. Also, they are unwilling to devote the amount of time to each

patient required for effective HCG therapy monitoring and education. That's just

human nature. But we're talking about our health and future here! Think for

yourself and you will see the fallacies in these doctors' arguments against it.

Each day more and more doctors are becoming more and more aware of the benefits

of HCG. In his landmark book, The Testosterone Syndrome, Dr. Eugene Shippen

makes a strong case for HCG as an alternative to standard TRT in cases of

secondary hypogonadism. This book is considered by many as the definitive book

on TRT.

Unfortunately, the vast majority of doctors are woefully ignorant about the

proper dosage for HCG. In fact, the AACE clinical guidelines call for HCG

dosages of 1000 to 2000 IU, two or three times a week. Scientific studies have

demonstrated that HCG dosage levels of about 5,000 IU per week or more

administered long-term cause permanent damage to the testicles (see Medline

articles 6210708 and 3583230). These studies have shown that such excessive HCG

dosages taken long-term result in testicular desensitization (to future

stimulation by LH or HCG). In other words, long-term, such excessive dosages of

HCG will result in primary hypogonadism!

Also, the AACE guidelines call for intramuscular injections when scientific

studies show that subcutaneous injections work equally as well (see Medline

article 8075787). My experience as well as hundreds of other men's experience

proves this point. Subcutaneous injections are much easier to administer and far

less painful than intramuscular injections.

I use and recommend Dr. Shippen's HCG protocol. Dr. Shippen's protocol calls for

low dose shots (about 300 to 500 IU) at bedtime, 2 to 5 times a week depending

upon your responsiveness. This protocol more closely mimics the body's natural

physiologic rhythm of LH production. (Note: Effective April, 2005 I switched to

nightly HCG shots of 65 IU/night)

Below is a copy of Dr. Eugene Shippen's HCG protocol that he emailed to me on

3/17/01. If you are interested in HCG therapy, I suggest that you show this

protocol to your doctor. If your doctor has any questions, he/she should contact

Dr. Shippen.

Prior to HCG therapy, Shippen gave me a Clomid Stimulation test to rule out any

hypothalamus/pituitary issues such as tumors, etc. My response to this test was

good. He then put me on Selegiline, which raised my T, but not enough for me.

HCG is available in shots only. It is self-administered at bedtime using the

smallest of needles (0.5 cc, 31 gauge, 5/16 " ). Shots are simple and virtually

painless.

*****************************

Dr. Shippen�s HCG Protocol (circa March 2001)

Chorionic Gonadotrophin Stimulation Test (males < 75 years old)*

Chorionic Gonadotrophin is presently available through most pharmacies or

distributors as Profasi, Pregnyl or generic Chorionic Gonadotrophin 10,000 units

per 10 cc vial. Various stimulation tests have been described, from high dose,

short course testing to more normal physiologic doses over a longer time period.

I have found that a typical treatment course for three weeks is best for

determining those individuals who will respond well to this type of treatment.

It is administered by injection 500 units (0.5 cc) SQ, Monday through Friday for

three weeks. Teach patient to self administer with 50 Unit Insulin Syringes with

30 gauge needles in anterior thigh, seated with both hands free to perform the

injection. Measure: Testosterone, total and free, plus E2 before starting CG and

on the third Saturday AM after 3 weeks of stimulation (salivary testing may be

more accurate for adjusting doses). Studies have shown that SQ is equal in

efficacy to IM

administration.

Results:

1. <20% rise suggests poor testicular reserve of leydig cell function (primary

hypo-gonadism or eu-gonadotrophic hypo-gonadism indicating combined central and

peripheral factors).

2. 20-50% increase indicates adequate reserve but slightly depressed response,

mostly central inhibition but possibly decreased testicular response as well.

3. > 50% increase suggests primarily centrally mediated depression of testicular

function.

Options for treatment vary both with the response to CG and patient determined

choices.

1. If there is an inadequate response (< 20%), then replacement with

testosterone will be indicated.

2. The area in between 20-50% will usually require CG boosting for a period of

time, plus natural boosting or " partial " replacement options. I believe that

full replacement with exogenous testosterone is always the last option in

borderline cases since improvement over time may frequently occur as leydig cell

regeneration may actually happen. Much of this is age dependent. Up to age 60,

boosting is almost always successful. 60-75 is variable, but will usually be

clear by the results of the stimulation test. Also, disease related depression

of testosterone output might be reversible with adequate treatment of the

underlying process (depression, AMI, obesity, alcohol, deficiency, etc.) This

positive effect will not occur if suppressive therapy is instituted in the form

of full replacement.

3. If there is an adequate response, >50% rise in testosterone, there is very

good leydig cell reserve. Natural boosting or CG therapy will probably be

successful in restoring full testosterone output without replacement, a better

option over the long term and a more natural restoration of biologic

fluctuations for optimal response.

4. Chorionic Gonadotrophin can be self-administered and adjusted according to

response. In younger, high output responders (T > 1100ng/dl), CG can be given

every third or fourth day at bedtime or in the AM. This also minimizes estrogen

conversion. In lower level responders(600-800ng/dl), or those with a higher E2

output associated with full dose CG, 300-500 units can be given Mon-Wed-Fri. At

times, sluggish responders may require a higher dose to achieve full

Testosterone response. In these cases, the diluent is lowered to 7.5cc or even

to 5 cc, which increases the CG concentration 1 � - 2 X. This can be

administered in variable doses 0.3 - 0.5cc given every 3rd day. Check salivary

levels on the day of the next injection, but before the next injection to

determine effectiveness and to adjust the dose accordingly. Keep in mind that

later as leydig cell restoration occurs, a reduction in dose or frequency of

administration may be later needed.

5. Monitor both Testosterone and E2 levels to assess response to treatment after

2 - 3 weeks after change in dose of CG as well as periodic intervals during

chronic administration. Sublingual testing is very easy and cost effective. It

will also better reflect the true free levels of both estrogens and

testosterone. (Pharmasan Labs 888-342-7272 is very good)

6. Adjustment of dosage is a result of symptomatic response and hormone level

boosting. It is based on clinical judgement as much as actual hormone levels.

Remember that " Normal " ranges are for populations, not individuals!

7. Except for reports of antibodies developing against CG (I have not seen

this), there are no adverse effects of chronic CG administration. An additional

benefit is the boosting of Growth Hormone output which has also been reported,

either as a direct effect of CG or as an effect of increased levels of

testosterone.

*Protocol adapted from " The Testosterone Syndrome " by Eugene Shippen, M. D. (M

and Co, NY 1998).

Reprinted with permission from Eugene Shippen, M. D.

Chapter 3 - Clomid

A Clomid (Clomiphene Citrate) stimulation test is a standard protocol that has

been used by endocrinologists for years to test whether a man's hypogonadism is

primary or secondary. If the test is successful (i.e., if your T rises

significantly), that means that all of the organs in the feedback loop (the

testicles, pituitary and hypothalamus) are healthy and functional, but for some

unknown reason the system has gone dormant. A successful test result also means

that you are a good candidate for HCG, which in contrast to standard TRT,

stimulates your body to produce its own T. See

www.aace.com/clin/guidelines/hypogonadism.pdf

Clomid doesn't lower estrogen; it " blocks " it. Estrogen attaches to the

receptors in the hypothalamus and that signals that there's enough T in your

blood, so your body reduces its T production. Somehow the hypothalamus reacts to

E as well as T. Clomid attaches to these receptors but doesn't act like E.

I did a Clomid stimulation test in November 1999. Dr. Shippen gave me 100 mg/day

(one 50 mg tablet in the morning and one in the evening before bed) for a week.

I took a blood test on the morning after the last day. My test was successful,

in that, my T went from about 200 to 600.

Clomid is most often used to promote fertility in women. Therefore, if you

research Clomid, the vast majority of the literature you find will discusses the

use of Clomid by women rather than men. In fact, when I went to fill the

prescription, the pharmacist was very leery and asked me a lot of questions

before dispensing the drug.

Many people ask about using Clomid long term to boost T. The prospect of taking

a pill (Clomid) is more attractive than taking shots (HCG or T). Unfortunately,

Clomid is not generally recognized as a long-term therapy for hypogonadism.

Clomid does not yield the full benefits of TRT or HCG, probably because it

blocks some aspects of E2. As mentioned in Chapter 1, E2 is vital to a man�s

health including T function.

Chapter 4 � Selegiline

Selegiline (aka, Deprenyl) is a prescription drug that is the darling of the

anti-aging movement, which includes many doctors. It's used as an adjunct to

other drugs (e.g., L-dopa, Carbidopa) in the treatment of Parkinson's disease.

Selegiline works by enhancing the effectiveness of dopamine in the brain. See

www.selegiline.com and search Medline.

Dr. Shippen discovered that Selegiline also increases T and discusses it on

pp.188-189 of his book, The Testosterone Syndrome.

Selegiline only works in some men who have secondary hypogonadism where the

feedback loop has gone quiet. Doctors don't know why this happens. By activating

dopamine in the brain, Selegiline puts the hypothalamus/pituitary back into

action, which produces more LH, which signals the testicles to produce more T.

Selegiline raised my T from about 200 to 400. That wasn't enough for me, so I

went on HCG. Now, Selegiline allows me to lower my HCG dosage by about 20%.

================================================

Chapter 5 � E2 Management, DIM and Arimidex

Men convert a small amount of their testosterone (T) to estrogen (E) by the

action of the aromatase enzyme. As men age, they experience both decreasing

levels of T and increasing levels of E. When the T/E ratio begins to tip

downwards, a number of negative health effects occur. This effect is sometimes

called estrogen dominance.

Men who are on T replacement therapy (TRT) often experience elevated E as a side

effect of boosting their T back to normal.

Whether you are on TRT or not, putting the T/E ratio back into proper balance

generally restores a man's vigor including improved erectile function. The

remainder of this chapter discusses two remedies that are used in estrogen

management � Diindolylmethane (DIM) and Arimidex.

Diindolylmethane (DIM) is a naturally occurring substance found primarily in

cruciferous vegetables (e.g., cabbage, broccoli, cauliflower, Brussels sprouts,

etc.) that helps the liver digest/metabolize Estradiol into more benign/healthy

estrogens. When taken orally, DIM is not very bioavailable because it gets

digested in the stomach and, therefore, doesn�t make its way into the

bloodstream. However, Indolplex is a proprietary formulation that increases

DIM's oral bioavailability.

For more information about DIM see www.dimfaq.com. This website was written by

Dr. Zeligs of BioResponse who owns the patent on the proprietary DIM

formulation.

I experienced a tremendous surge in erectile function during the first 2 or 3

months on a very low dosage of Indoplex (25 to 50 mg/day). The effect of

Indoplex began after about 1 or 2 days and remains at about 80% of the initial

surge effect level after about 3 years. Other men have reported similar results.

The recommended dosage for Indolplex is about 240 mg/day. This dosage is way too

much for me, but I'm highly responsive to it. However, setting your DIM dosage

is very tricky because the window of optimum E2 level is very narrow. See

Chapter 7 for a discussion about setting your DIM dosage.

Many brands of DIM are available in vitamin stores and on the Internet. Some of

these brands are manufactured under Zeligs patent and some aren�t.

Unfortunately, supplements aren't well regulated like pharmaceuticals. As a

result the quality of supplements varies greatly by brand.

I�ve had excellent results using Indolplex with DIM by PhytoPharmica. (See

www.ritecare.com/prodsheets/PHY-15336.html. ) About 20 blood test results as

well as my clinical response (see Chapter 7) have confirmed that DIM works for

me.

Arimidex is a prescription drug that is very effective in lowering blood levels

of E by inhibiting the action of the aromatase enzyme. While some men report

some clinical benefits from Arimidex, the results do not match what one would

expect from the reduction in E2 that this treatment yields. The reason for this

discrepancy is unknown.

DIM is a relatively benign supplement (no prescription required) with no side

effects (unless you take too much). In contrast, Arimidex is a prescription drug

with a long list of potential side effects.

I suspect that elevated E2 in men may result more from insufficient

metabolization of E2 rather than excess aromatization. For a number of

reasons/causes the P450 system in the liver declines in function as men age.

Therefore, while we probably make more E2 as we get older, we also don't

metabolize it as well as we did when we were younger.

In addition to being a food supplement rather than a drug, DIM supports a

deficient system in our bodies to do what it was designed to do rather than

blocking a functioning system from doing what it was meant to do.

Chapter 6 � Amazing How Balancing T and E Improved My Health

In June 1999 at the age of 44, I was diagnosed with hypogonadism (low

testosterone), microhematuria (microscopic blood in the urine), and prostatitis

(frequent urination and an enlarged and painful prostate). Also, I had 2

positive cytology reports (indicating that I might have bladder cancer).

In February 2000, I started HCG shots. I had a kidney IVP to try to find the

source of the microhematuria, but they found nothing.

I also discovered in early 2000 that I had Ulcerative Colitis (UC), which is an

inflammation of the colon. I probably had this condition for years. When it

flares up (about every month or 2), Cipro works very quickly (due to its

anti-inflammatory properties rather than as an antibiotic, I suppose) to calm it

down.

In May 2001, I started taking DIM which lowered my Estradiol (E2) from about 70

(<45) to about 40, putting my T and E2 in proper balance for the first time in

years.

In August 2001, I visited my urologist. He told me that the microhematuria is

gone and that my prostate is normal. Also, I've had consecutive 4 negative

cytology reports in 2001. I saw my urologist last in 2003 and he said it�s no

longer an issue.

I get a UC flare up about once a year now. It happens when my T and E2 get out

of balance.

I should also mention that:

(1) I have more energy, particularly in the evenings.

(2) I have much stronger erections. I generally don't use V, but sometimes I'll

take a half of a 25 mg, for a little extra boost.

(3) My workouts are more intense and less strenuous.

(4) My skin color went form pale to dark. It's embarrassing when people ask me

if I've been somewhere warm on vacation lately. I just say no, rather going into

detail about how I rebalanced my hormones.

(5) I sleep better. Shorter duration, but more restful.

(6) I don't get sick as often.

(7) My insulin sensitivity has improved dramatically (I'm T2 diabetic w/o meds

and my HbA1c went from 7.1% to 6.0%).

(8) I can only imagine the various positive effects that rebalancing my hormones

has had on my cardiovascular/lipid profile, bone health, immune system, etc.

I don't want to leave the impression that rebalancing my hormones was easy. No

way. And the fact that the vast majority of doctors, including endocrinologists

and urologists, are vastly undereducated about the benefits and methods of TRT

makes the job extra difficult. It took me two years and a lot of study and

experimentation to achieve the above.

Chapter 7 � Adjusting DIM Dosage

I am amazed at the power that DIM has on me and with the effect that extremely

small adjustments to my daily dosage have on my health.

When I first tried DIM in early 2000 (using the manufacturer's recommended

dosage of two 120 mg tablets per day), I felt pretty good for a few days or so

and then I crashed big time. So, I stopped taking it and returned to normal (or

at least to my previous status). I was very confused and didn't know what to

conclude other than this stuff was not for me. It wasn't until a year and a half

later that I suspected that the reason for the negative response was that I was

overdosing and, thereby, reducing my E2 too low. So, I started taking half a

tablet a day. I felt great for about 2 weeks including more energy and much

stronger erections. But after a while I felt down again. So, I dropped my dosage

to a quarter of a tablet. That worked very well. I've been fine-tuning the

dosage ever since.

A lot of posters say that they tried DIM and it improved their erections, but

after a week they were as bad or worse off than before they started. What

happened was that they dropped their E2 down to the optimum level and then went

beyond it. The window of optimum E2 level is very small. Too little E2 is not a

good thing. E2 is needed for libido as well as heart, muscle and bone health.

That's why I suggest starting low (e.g., one tablet per day at dinner) and then

see how it goes. If your erections get strong for a few days and then go away,

that means that the dosage is too high for you. Stop for 2 or 3 days and start

up again at half a tablet per day. If the same thing happens again, go to one

quarter of a tablet per day. Once you�re in the right range and you want to

adjust from there, make the adjustment small and keep it at that level for a

week, or better yet, 2 weeks. Observe your body's response and adjust

accordingly.

Getting the dosage right is extremely tricky and extremely critical. The thing

that makes adjusting the DIM dosage so difficult is that the clinical response

you get (i.e., how you �feel�) when you take too much (i.e., drop your E2

too low) feels a lot like the response you get when you take too little (i.e.,

when your E2 is too high). As a result, when you feel down, you don't know

whether to increase or decrease the dosage. That's why I learned to listen very

carefully to my body and rely on certain indicators. These indicators include

erectile response, nipple sensitivity, the quality and restfulness of my sleep,

my tendency to maintain or gain weight, and the presence or absence of a burning

sensation in my lips and tongue. Eventually, using these indicators, I developed

the ability to regulate my daily DIM complex intake.

To fine-tune my dosage, I use a jeweler's scale (cost about $200) that measures

to an accuracy of 2 mg (0.002 g) to parcel out my dosage. (See the Tanita

1210-50 at http://balanc.temp.veriohosting.com/paypal/diamond.html ) Since one

120 mg DIM tablet weighs a little over a gram, that translates to an accuracy of

about 0.1 mg of DIM complex in adjusting my dosage.

Before starting DIM, my T to E2 ratio was about 10 to 1 (T average of about 700

and E2 average of about 70). Now my T to E2 ratio is about 20 to 1 (T average of

about 800 and E2 average of about 40).

Please note that I'm not suggesting that your E2 level indicators will be the

same ones as mine. I'm only suggesting that by listening to your body, and

finding YOUR indicators, you might be able to find your " right " dosage as well.

It is very likely that I am more in tune with my body's signals than most men.

As a result, this approach would not be for everyone. I follow a very

disciplined and intense program of diet and exercise. I know very quickly when

my energy is waning.

I wish I could tell you that it was easier than this. Until we have better ways

of measuring E2, this is the best I can offer. Of course, whatever you do, it's

best to verify your clinical observations with before and after blood tests.

For a discussion on how DIM improved my health in many ways, see Chapter 6 �

Amazing How Rebalancing T and E Improved My Health. "

************************************************** ********

I hope that this primer makes it a little easier for the next guy to take his

life back.

-

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: Bill F <bfwl54@...>

> Subject: RE: DIM

>

> Date: Wednesday, September 15, 2010, 1:37 PM

>

> Phil,

>

> You said DIM does not lower E2 but converts bad estrogens

> to good estrogens which are then eliminated via the

> liver.  Which estrogens are bad and which are

> good.  If DIM does not lower E2, I don't see the

> benefit of taking it or how that could improve the T/E

> ratio??

>

> Thanks.

>

> Bill

>

>

> From: no_reply

> Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 17:24:00 +0000

> Subject: Re: Ques....TRT & cholesterol

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>  

>

>

>    

>      

>      

>       I never heard of a TRH before.

>

>

>

>

>

> > > >

>

> > > > My husband was told that taking TRT that it

> may increase cholesteral levels...not sure why that would

> happen,,,,is this true? If anyone could answer this i'd

> appreciate.

>

> > > > Thanks,

>

> > > >

>

> > > >

>

> > >

>

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>    

>      

>

>    

>    

>

>

>

>

>

>

>       

>         

>           

>  

>

>

[Guest guest]

I was under the impression that DIM lowered E2? I have been taking it for 5

days now and yesterday I had a strong erection for the first time in a long time

however today I woke up and couldn't get anything down there. I have been

taking two pills at dinner and wonder if I took too much. I could be wrong but

I think they are 100 mgs each. Directions say to take 1 to 4pills. Also the

day I had the strong my libido was low through out that day.

What is going on here? Did I take too much dim? Or is my e2 still high?I don't

think I still had cialis on my system because that was about 5 days ago when

used. Help! I have been struggling the past coupledays with erections.

Sent from my iPod

On Sep 15, 2010, at 11:37 AM, Bill F <bfwl54@...> wrote:

Phil,

You said DIM does not lower E2 but converts bad estrogens to good estrogens

which are then eliminated via the liver. Which estrogens are bad and which are

good. If DIM does not lower E2, I don't see the benefit of taking it or how

that could improve the T/E ratio??

Thanks.

Bill

From: no_reply

Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 17:24:00 +0000

Subject: Re: Ques....TRT & cholesterol

I never heard of a TRH before.

My husband was told that taking TRT that it may increase cholesteral

levels...not sure why that would happen,,,,is this true? If anyone could answer

this i'd appreciate.

Thanks,

[Guest guest]

I am 25.  Something happened when I took steroids for two weeks (about 2 years

ago).   A few months later i noticed my morning erections gone and libido

low.  I took a supplement at wal-mart which ended up having Viagra in it which

did wonders, however, that was banned by the FDA.  I have seen doctor after

docter and they all say I am fine with total test at 550.  but none mentioned

E2.  Phil actually brought this up to me and I figured I had too high E2

because I could get weak erections and they wouldn't stay long.  I started

taking DIM and I thought it was working but now I don't know?

 

I ordered Levitra and Cialis from ADC and am still waitining on it, however, I

want to get to the point where I don't need it.

 

Do you think I should stay with the DIM?  Doesn't it work slower than Armidex?

From: cottonfarm7@... <cottonfarm7@...>

Subject: Re: RE: DIM

Date: Wednesday, September 15, 2010, 1:00 PM

 

.....you may have to factor in your age. Cialis can give you a

bounce even 4 days later. It's possible.

I have taken DIM many many many many days. Enough to give it a fair chance

in helping me. I have never noticed any benefit from it in wood at any

time. HOWEVER, I am over sixty and that might be why.

Recently I ordered arimidex from alldaychemist and I am taking 1/4 tablet

every three days. I am happy to report that nighttime and morning wood has

returned. I am so thankful to God as those type erections are part of our

masculinity and we men grieve the loss of them when they go. Erections

are better and I feel more like I did 15 years or so ago.

I am not on any prescription T and take only ISA-Test which is a natural T

booster. Thank to Phil and the guys on this board for preaching the

benefits of arimidex. In keeping with their suggestions, I will use the

nighttime and morning wood as a barometer of how my estrogen levels are (plus

the

blood testing).

Good luck. What is your general age category, ?

[Guest guest]

If it's not Indolplex/DIM I don't know what to tell you if the DIM comes in

pills I don't feel it gets past your stomach to work. You just had a lower day.

http://www.iherb.com/Enzymatic-Therapy-Pure-Rip-with-DIM-60-Tablets/12814?at=0

If you need more info I have a long file I made us let me know if you want to

read it it's full of links for Indolplex/DIM links.

Co-Moderator

Phil

>

>

> Phil,

>

> You said DIM does not lower E2 but converts bad estrogens

> to good estrogens which are then eliminated via the

> liver.  Which estrogens are bad and which are

> good.  If DIM does not lower E2, I don't see the

> benefit of taking it or how that could improve the T/E

> ratio??

>

> Thanks.

>

> Bill

>

>

> From: no_reply

> Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2010 17:24:00 +0000

> Subject: Re: Ques....TRT & cholesterol

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>      I never heard of a TRH before.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> My husband was told that taking TRT that it may increase

> cholesteral levels...not sure why that would happen,,,,is

> this true? If anyone could answer this i'd appreciate.

>

> Thanks,

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>                

>            

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi cottonfarm7 good to hear from you and we all should have night time and

morning wood until we die it's are bodys way of keeping the path ways for blood

clean.

http://www.sexdictionary.info/erection_nocturnal.html

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: cottonfarm7@... <cottonfarm7@...>

> Subject: Re: RE: DIM

>

> Date: Wednesday, September 15, 2010, 3:00 PM

> .....you may have to factor in

> your age.  Cialis can give you a 

> bounce even 4 days later.  It's possible.

>

> I have taken DIM many many many many days. Enough to give

> it a fair  chance

> in helping me.  I have never noticed any benefit from

> it in wood at  any

> time.  HOWEVER,  I am over sixty and that might

> be why.

>

> Recently I ordered arimidex from alldaychemist and I am

> taking 1/4 tablet 

> every three days.  I am happy to report that nighttime

> and morning wood has 

> returned.  I am so thankful to God as those type

> erections are part of  our

> masculinity and we men grieve the loss of them when they

> go.     Erections

> are better and I feel more like I did 15 years or so ago.

>

> I am not on any prescription T and take only ISA-Test which

> is a natural T 

> booster.   Thank to Phil and the guys on

> this board for preaching the 

> benefits of arimidex.  In keeping with their

> suggestions, I will use the 

> nighttime and morning wood as a barometer of how my

> estrogen levels are (plus  the

> blood testing).

>

> Good luck.  What is your general age category,

> ? 

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I think you have the wrong kind of DIM get this brand guys here find it

works.

http://www.iherb.com/Enzymatic-Therapy-Pure-Rip-with-DIM-60-Tablets/12814?at=0

Co-Moderator

Phil

>

>

> From: cottonfarm7@...

> <cottonfarm7@...>

> Subject: Re: RE: DIM

>

> Date: Wednesday, September 15, 2010, 1:00 PM

>

>

>  

>

>

>

> .....you may have to factor in your age. Cialis can

> give you a

> bounce even 4 days later. It's possible.

>

> I have taken DIM many many many many days. Enough to give

> it a fair chance

> in helping me. I have never noticed any benefit from it in

> wood at any

> time. HOWEVER, I am over sixty and that might be why.

>

> Recently I ordered arimidex from alldaychemist and I am

> taking 1/4 tablet

> every three days. I am happy to report that nighttime and

> morning wood has

> returned. I am so thankful to God as those type erections

> are part of our

> masculinity and we men grieve the loss of them when they

> go. Erections

> are better and I feel more like I did 15 years or so ago.

>

> I am not on any prescription T and take only ISA-Test which

> is a natural T

> booster. Thank to Phil and the guys on this board for

> preaching the

> benefits of arimidex. In keeping with their suggestions, I

> will use the

> nighttime and morning wood as a barometer of how my

> estrogen levels are (plus the

> blood testing).

>

> Good luck. What is your general age category, ?

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yes a lot of the men I have told that had lower levels of Testosterone take

Arimidex or the generic to keep there Estradiol levels down. Some only need a

very small amount per day so they get is compounded in to .5mgs pills and some

only need this every other day others need it everyday. Some don't what to mess

with this so they use the LiquiDex research brand just as good. Then use a

needle to dose.

http://www.ag-guys.com/store/product.php?productid=16135 & cat=248

Just keep track of your night time and morning wood if you don't think you had

it check it before you get out of bed. If you can't get it up you went to low

if it takes a long time to get it up and it is not a strong one you going to

high.

If you can't get it up going to low even taking a pill will not work so just

stop the arimidex until wood comes back. I tell men keep a long on how you feel

Estradiol levels going up for me I get hot and sweat feel panic then look red on

the upper part of my body and face even get sore and hard nipples.

I got so good at this I know when to take more or when to stop a few days.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: cottonfarm7@... <cottonfarm7@...>

> Subject: Re: RE: DIM

>

> Date: Wednesday, September 15, 2010, 5:16 PM

> Thanks Phil

>

> We hope you are back to your " young " self soon.

>

> Phil, have you known any men like me who have experimented

> with Arimidex 

> while not being on any prescription TRT. 

>

> I plan to take it slow and use my nighttime and morning

> wood as gauges of 

> my hormonal balance.  Do you have any advice for me,

> pro or con, on my use 

> of Arimidex while not on any TRT. 

>

> Again, I take a daily dose of ISA-Test which is a natural T

> booster.   I am

> in the gym big time and watch my diet, exercise and cardio

> function. I  am

> on alldaychemist Pharma tadalafil........one tablet

> every two  days. 

> Each tablet of this tadalafil is about 8 mg or so of

> tadalafil when 

> compared to the very potent 20 mg Eli Lilly cialis sold

> here in the  States. 

> That's the problem with some generics from ADC.  They

> are not  the potency they

> say they are. 

>

> Any bones for me on my regimen???????......pun 

> intended.......

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Phil,

 

Are you sure the DIM I am using is not working?  I have actually been keeping

of a log in regards to the DIM and here it is:

 

Day 1: 1 Tablet - nothing

Day 2: 1 Tablet -  a little libido but nos ure if it was in my head.

Day 3 - 2 Tablets - Decent libdo and okay erection but much improvement.  My

libido got higher at night.  Erection was good but didn't really get the stick

that I wanted.

Day 4 - 2 Tablets - Very good moring erection, best in a long time but libod

lowered in the afternoon and nothing at night.

Day 5 - 2 tablets -  No morning erection and I have no life down there

whatsoever!!

 

I am afraid either the DIM doesn't work like you said Phil, or I overdosed the

DIM.

 

I read your longer post about DIM and people not having erections by taking 240

mgs a day and I seem to have the same symptoms.

 

So now I am not sure if it the DIM isn't working at all because it's not

Indoplex or if I took too much.

 

Thank you everyone for all your help....to be honest I feel like this saving my

life!  It's been rough for my wife and I.

 

> From: cottonfarm7@... <cottonfarm7@...>

> Subject: Re: RE: DIM

>

> Date: Wednesday, September 15, 2010, 5:16 PM

> Thanks Phil

>

> We hope you are back to your " young " self soon.

>

> Phil, have you known any men like me who have experimented

> with Arimidex 

> while not being on any prescription TRT. 

>

> I plan to take it slow and use my nighttime and morning

> wood as gauges of 

> my hormonal balance.  Do you have any advice for me,

> pro or con, on my use 

> of Arimidex while not on any TRT. 

>

> Again, I take a daily dose of ISA-Test which is a natural T

> booster.   I am

> in the gym big time and watch my diet, exercise and cardio

> function. I  am

> on alldaychemist Pharma tadalafil........one tablet

> every two  days. 

> Each tablet of this tadalafil is about 8 mg or so of

> tadalafil when 

> compared to the very potent 20 mg Eli Lilly cialis sold

> here in the  States. 

> That's the problem with some generics from ADC.  They

> are not  the potency they

> say they are. 

>

> Any bones for me on my regimen???????......pun 

> intended.......

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

it's not easy to get this right sounds to me like some thing happened you

might have gone to low and it might have worked. Try not taking see if your

wood starts up again. If it does then you did go to low if you don't get good

wood back then start over again only taking 120 mgs at dinner with food. See

what happens sounds to me like your levels were not all that low most find the

DIM takes a bout a week or two to work.

Co-Moderator

Phil

>

> > From: cottonfarm7@...

> <cottonfarm7@...>

> > Subject: Re: RE: DIM

> >

> > Date: Wednesday, September 15, 2010, 5:16 PM

> > Thanks Phil

> >

> > We hope you are back to your " young " self soon.

> >

> > Phil, have you known any men like me who have

> experimented

> > with Arimidex 

> > while not being on any prescription TRT. 

> >

> > I plan to take it slow and use my nighttime and

> morning

> > wood as gauges of 

> > my hormonal balance.  Do you have any advice for me,

> > pro or con, on my use 

> > of Arimidex while not on any TRT. 

> >

> > Again, I take a daily dose of ISA-Test which is a

> natural T

> > booster.   I am

> > in the gym big time and watch my diet, exercise and

> cardio

> > function. I  am

> > on alldaychemist Pharma tadalafil........one

> tablet

> > every two  days. 

> > Each tablet of this tadalafil is about 8 mg or so of

> > tadalafil when 

> > compared to the very potent 20 mg Eli Lilly cialis

> sold

> > here in the  States. 

> > That's the problem with some generics from ADC. 

> They

> > are not  the potency they

> > say they are. 

> >

> > Any bones for me on my regimen???????......pun 

> > intended.......

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I will say that based on my personal experience, DIM definitely works and (I

think) should be treated as a real medication (such as arimidex). With that in

mind, if you are taking DIM you should have your doc order E2 levels in addition

to the usual test levels when taking blood and make adjustments to the DIM

accordingly. I have been taking DIM for about a year and while some the sides

effects of too much E2 have subsided, I have been having lots of minor

sicknesses and ear infections. I attribute this to low E2 levels as estrogen is

critical a well functioning immune system. My last readings were total test of

500 (right where my doc wants it) and an E2 level of 2! My doc had not ordered

E2 in over a year. I stopped taking DIM right after that last blood test (about

a month ago) and I am feeling better. Better libido too. That's my two cents

on DIM. Thanks. W

> >

> > > From: cottonfarm7@...

> > <cottonfarm7@...>

> > > Subject: Re: RE: DIM

> > >

> > > Date: Wednesday, September 15, 2010, 5:16 PM

> > > Thanks Phil

> > >

> > > We hope you are back to your " young " self soon.

> > >

> > > Phil, have you known any men like me who have

> > experimented

> > > with Arimidex 

> > > while not being on any prescription TRT. 

> > >

> > > I plan to take it slow and use my nighttime and

> > morning

> > > wood as gauges of 

> > > my hormonal balance.  Do you have any advice for me,

> > > pro or con, on my use 

> > > of Arimidex while not on any TRT. 

> > >

> > > Again, I take a daily dose of ISA-Test which is a

> > natural T

> > > booster.   I am

> > > in the gym big time and watch my diet, exercise and

> > cardio

> > > function. I  am

> > > on alldaychemist Pharma tadalafil........one

> > tablet

> > > every two  days. 

> > > Each tablet of this tadalafil is about 8 mg or so of

> > > tadalafil when 

> > > compared to the very potent 20 mg Eli Lilly cialis

> > sold

> > > here in the  States. 

> > > That's the problem with some generics from ADC. 

> > They

> > > are not  the potency they

> > > say they are. 

> > >

> > > Any bones for me on my regimen???????......pun 

> > > intended.......

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

In my case DIM works so well I am going to leave it off for a while.The

spotaneous erections are fewer and further apart.My test levels are good and

don't really want to go to expense of estradiol levels.Again I think the key to

aromization is elimination of belly fat.Much harder to have high estardiol

levels if your wasit is small.Phil

> > >

> > > > From: cottonfarm7@

> > > <cottonfarm7@>

> > > > Subject: Re: RE: DIM

> > > >

> > > > Date: Wednesday, September 15, 2010, 5:16 PM

> > > > Thanks Phil

> > > >

> > > > We hope you are back to your " young " self soon.

> > > >

> > > > Phil, have you known any men like me who have

> > > experimented

> > > > with Arimidex 

> > > > while not being on any prescription TRT. 

> > > >

> > > > I plan to take it slow and use my nighttime and

> > > morning

> > > > wood as gauges of 

> > > > my hormonal balance.  Do you have any advice for me,

> > > > pro or con, on my use 

> > > > of Arimidex while not on any TRT. 

> > > >

> > > > Again, I take a daily dose of ISA-Test which is a

> > > natural T

> > > > booster.   I am

> > > > in the gym big time and watch my diet, exercise and

> > > cardio

> > > > function. I  am

> > > > on alldaychemist Pharma tadalafil........one

> > > tablet

> > > > every two  days. 

> > > > Each tablet of this tadalafil is about 8 mg or so of

> > > > tadalafil when 

> > > > compared to the very potent 20 mg Eli Lilly cialis

> > > sold

> > > > here in the  States. 

> > > > That's the problem with some generics from ADC. 

> > > They

> > > > are not  the potency they

> > > > say they are. 

> > > >

> > > > Any bones for me on my regimen???????......pun 

> > > > intended.......

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

With this test was it the Quest Ultra test with the rage of <29. If it was this

test it is not acurite Quest is having a lot of problems with this test a lot of

men are getting levels of 2 and it's wrong. I don't even feel a man could live

with a level that low.

I have gone to low on DIM all I did was use my night time and morning wood to

tell if I was going to low. If I lost it I would stop the DIM until it came

back then that day go back on it but take have a tablet of it.

I think you went to low but not at 2. I use the older Queat test #4021 the

range is 13 to 54pg/ml the lowest I ever tested was 10 on Arimidex.

I could not get it up talking Viagra.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: wjj1234 <wjj1234@...>

> Subject: Re: RE: DIM

>

> Date: Sunday, September 19, 2010, 8:33 PM

> I will say that based on my personal

> experience, DIM definitely works and (I think) should be

> treated as a real medication (such as arimidex).  With

> that in mind, if you are taking DIM you should have your doc

> order E2 levels in addition to the usual test levels when

> taking blood and make adjustments to the DIM

> accordingly.  I have been taking DIM for about a year

> and while some the sides effects of too much E2 have

> subsided, I have been having lots of minor sicknesses and

> ear infections.  I attribute this to low E2 levels as

> estrogen is critical a well functioning immune system. 

> My last readings were total test of 500 (right where my doc

> wants it) and an E2 level of 2!  My doc had not ordered

> E2 in over a year.  I stopped taking DIM right after

> that last blood test (about a month ago) and I am feeling

> better.  Better libido too.  That's my two cents

> on DIM.  Thanks.  W

>

>

> > >

> > > > From: cottonfarm7@...

> > > <cottonfarm7@...>

> > > > Subject: Re: RE: DIM

> > > >

> > > > Date: Wednesday, September 15, 2010, 5:16

> PM

> > > > Thanks Phil

> > > >

> > > > We hope you are back to your " young " self

> soon.

> > > >

> > > > Phil, have you known any men like me who

> have

> > > experimented

> > > > with Arimidex 

> > > > while not being on any prescription TRT. 

> > > >

> > > > I plan to take it slow and use my nighttime

> and

> > > morning

> > > > wood as gauges of 

> > > > my hormonal balance.  Do you have any

> advice for me,

> > > > pro or con, on my use 

> > > > of Arimidex while not on any TRT. 

> > > >

> > > > Again, I take a daily dose of ISA-Test which

> is a

> > > natural T

> > > > booster.   I am

> > > > in the gym big time and watch my diet,

> exercise and

> > > cardio

> > > > function. I  am

> > > > on alldaychemist Pharma

> tadalafil........one

> > > tablet

> > > > every two  days. 

> > > > Each tablet of this tadalafil is about 8 mg

> or so of

> > > > tadalafil when 

> > > > compared to the very potent 20 mg Eli Lilly

> cialis

> > > sold

> > > > here in the  States. 

> > > > That's the problem with some generics from

> ADC. 

> > > They

> > > > are not  the potency they

> > > > say they are. 

> > > >

> > > > Any bones for me on my

> regimen???????......pun 

> > > > intended.......

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > ------------------------------------

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

Yes, it was Quest. Not happy to hear about the inaccuracies... not good. Yes,

I was too low but perhaps not that low. I'm doing better now without it though

and I will mention the issues to my doc and perhaps ask for the older test.

Thanks! W

> > > >

> > > > > From: cottonfarm7@

> > > > <cottonfarm7@>

> > > > > Subject: Re: RE: DIM

> > > > >

> > > > > Date: Wednesday, September 15, 2010, 5:16

> > PM

> > > > > Thanks Phil

> > > > >

> > > > > We hope you are back to your " young " self

> > soon.

> > > > >

> > > > > Phil, have you known any men like me who

> > have

> > > > experimented

> > > > > with Arimidex 

> > > > > while not being on any prescription TRT. 

> > > > >

> > > > > I plan to take it slow and use my nighttime

> > and

> > > > morning

> > > > > wood as gauges of 

> > > > > my hormonal balance.  Do you have any

> > advice for me,

> > > > > pro or con, on my use 

> > > > > of Arimidex while not on any TRT. 

> > > > >

> > > > > Again, I take a daily dose of ISA-Test which

> > is a

> > > > natural T

> > > > > booster.   I am

> > > > > in the gym big time and watch my diet,

> > exercise and

> > > > cardio

> > > > > function. I  am

> > > > > on alldaychemist Pharma

> > tadalafil........one

> > > > tablet

> > > > > every two  days. 

> > > > > Each tablet of this tadalafil is about 8 mg

> > or so of

> > > > > tadalafil when 

> > > > > compared to the very potent 20 mg Eli Lilly

> > cialis

> > > > sold

> > > > > here in the  States. 

> > > > > That's the problem with some generics from

> > ADC. 

> > > > They

> > > > > are not  the potency they

> > > > > say they are. 

> > > > >

> > > > > Any bones for me on my

> > regimen???????......pun 

> > > > > intended.......

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> > removed]

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > ------------------------------------

> > > > >

> > > > >

[Guest guest]

Dr. at www.allthingsmale.com got so sick of there mistakes with this Ultra

E2 test he stopped using them as his lab.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: wjj1234 <wjj1234@...>

> Subject: Re: RE: DIM

>

> Date: Monday, September 20, 2010, 9:29 PM

> Yes, it was Quest.  Not happy to

> hear about the inaccuracies... not good.  Yes, I was

> too low but perhaps not that low.  I'm doing better now

> without it though and I will mention the issues to my doc

> and perhaps ask for the older test.  Thanks!  W

>

>

> > > > >

> > > > > > From: cottonfarm7@

> > > > > <cottonfarm7@>

> > > > > > Subject: Re: RE:

> DIM

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Date: Wednesday, September 15,

> 2010, 5:16

> > > PM

> > > > > > Thanks Phil

> > > > > >

> > > > > > We hope you are back to your

> " young " self

> > > soon.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Phil, have you known any men like

> me who

> > > have

> > > > > experimented

> > > > > > with Arimidex 

> > > > > > while not being on any

> prescription TRT. 

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I plan to take it slow and use my

> nighttime

> > > and

> > > > > morning

> > > > > > wood as gauges of 

> > > > > > my hormonal balance.  Do you have

> any

> > > advice for me,

> > > > > > pro or con, on my use 

> > > > > > of Arimidex while not on any

> TRT. 

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Again, I take a daily dose of

> ISA-Test which

> > > is a

> > > > > natural T

> > > > > > booster.   I am

> > > > > > in the gym big time and watch my

> diet,

> > > exercise and

> > > > > cardio

> > > > > > function. I  am

> > > > > > on alldaychemist Pharma

> > > tadalafil........one

> > > > > tablet

> > > > > > every two  days. 

> > > > > > Each tablet of this tadalafil is

> about 8 mg

> > > or so of

> > > > > > tadalafil when 

> > > > > > compared to the very potent 20 mg

> Eli Lilly

> > > cialis

> > > > > sold

> > > > > > here in the  States. 

> > > > > > That's the problem with some

> generics from

> > > ADC. 

> > > > > They

> > > > > > are not  the potency they

> > > > > > say they are. 

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Any bones for me on my

> > > regimen???????......pun 

> > > > > > intended.......

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message

> have been

> > > removed]

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> ------------------------------------

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

[Guest guest]

Wow a female, welcome I guess

DIM

Hi Phil,

I would like to start on DIM and give it a try. The bottle says " Men's Health " ,

and recommends one capsule per day. Being female, what dose should I start

on??one per day?? It is the " Pure Rip with DIM...120mg Indoplex complex.

Thanks,

Cal

Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post | Start a New Topic

[The entire original message is not included]

[Guest guest]

http://www.digitalnaturopath.com/treat/T271617.html

As little as 0.5- 2mg mg/kg body weight/day of DIM has been demonstrated as an

effective dose. The usual dosage of diindolylmethane for women is 100 - 200mg

per day taken with food.

BTW - welcome aboard

>

> Hi Phil,

>

> I would like to start on DIM and give it a try. The bottle says " Men's

Health " , and recommends one capsule per day. Being female, what dose should I

start on??one per day?? It is the " Pure Rip with DIM...120mg Indoplex complex.

>

> Thanks,

> Cal

>

[Guest guest]

Isn't it the same product as this?

http://www.enzymatictherapy.com/Products/Womens-Health/PMS-Support/05336-EstroBa\

lance.aspx

Directions

One tablet daily with food. If extra support is required, take two

tablets with food.

BR//Matt

On 2/10/2011 4:45 PM, cvictorg wrote:

>

> http://www.digitalnaturopath.com/treat/T271617.html

>

> As little as 0.5- 2mg mg/kg body weight/day of DIM has been

> demonstrated as an effective dose. The usual dosage of

> diindolylmethane for women is 100 - 200mg per day taken with food.

>

> BTW - welcome aboard

>

>

> >

> > Hi Phil,

> >

> > I would like to start on DIM and give it a try. The bottle says

> " Men's Health " , and recommends one capsule per day. Being female, what

> dose should I start on??one per day?? It is the " Pure Rip with

> DIM...120mg Indoplex complex.

> >

> > Thanks,

> > Cal

> >

>

>

[Guest guest]

I would start off with one per day at dinner time with food. If in a week or

two you don't feel better try one every 12 hrs. with food.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: cibkos22 <no_reply >

> Subject: DIM

>

> Date: Thursday, February 10, 2011, 4:58 PM

> Hi Phil,

>

> I would like to start on DIM and give it a try.  The

> bottle says " Men's Health " , and recommends one capsule per

> day.  Being female, what dose should I start on??one

> per day??  It is the " Pure Rip with DIM...120mg

> Indoplex complex.

>

> Thanks,

> Cal

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Women are very welcome here and there are a lot of them.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: uu1845@... <uu1845@...>

> Subject: RE: DIM

>

> Date: Thursday, February 10, 2011, 5:21 PM

> Wow a female, welcome I guess

>

> DIM

>

>

> Hi Phil,

>

> I would like to start on DIM and give it a try. The bottle

> says " Men's Health " , and recommends one capsule per day.

> Being female, what dose should I start on??one per day?? It

> is the " Pure Rip with DIM...120mg Indoplex complex.

>

> Thanks,

> Cal

>

>

> Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post |

> Start a New Topic

>

> [The entire original message is not included]

>

>

[Guest guest]

" a lot of them " ? Phil, you have something to share with us.... Lol

Its always great to have women share their wins and loses when it comes to

hormones.

DIM

>

>

> Hi Phil,

>

> I would like to start on DIM and give it a try. The bottle

> says " Men's Health " , and recommends one capsule per day.

> Being female, what dose should I start on??one per day?? It

> is the " Pure Rip with DIM...120mg Indoplex complex.

>

> Thanks,

> Cal

>

>

> Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post |

> Start a New Topic

>

> [The entire original message is not included]

&

[The entire original message is not included]

[Guest guest]

Women come here for the men that are dam sick and don't want to post about it.

Others here about us and are looking for help with there hormones not that I am

all that great at HRT for women. So with is way I like to keep this forum open

to talk about most health problems.

We are finding men with low T end up with low Cortisol,Thyroid and Iron or

Ferritin levels. Most men with low T and fix there low T if they can find out

why they are low and fix it.

Some if the women here are a big help to the forum they know a lot about the

problems we have from doing research for there men.

Co-Moderator

Phil

>

> > From: uu1845@...

> <uu1845@...>

> > Subject: RE: DIM

> >

> > Date: Thursday, February 10, 2011, 5:21 PM

> > Wow a female, welcome I guess

> >

> > DIM

> >

> >

> > Hi Phil,

> >

> > I would like to start on DIM and give it a try. The

> bottle

> > says " Men's Health " , and recommends one capsule per

> day.

> > Being female, what dose should I start on??one per

> day?? It

> > is the " Pure Rip with DIM...120mg Indoplex complex.

> >

> > Thanks,

> > Cal

> >

> >

> > Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post

> |

> > Start a New Topic

> >

> > [The entire original message is not included]

> &

>

> [The entire original message is not included]

>

>

[Guest guest]

I enjoy a woman's perceptive more so on this site compared to something more

personal in nature like what I do to overcome a side effect from primary hypo.

Women here I can learn to trust and rely on for a honest post or thread. I

haven't found any woman annoying or would make a man feel less than here. I am

thankful for that on this site.

RE: DIM

>

> Date: Thursday, February 10, 2011, 7:54 PM

> " a lot of them " ? Phil, you have

> something to share with us.... Lol

>

> Its always great to have women share their wins and loses

> when it comes to hormones.

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: philip georgian <pmgamer18@...>

> Sent: Thursd

[The entire original message is not included]