Re: Finding the cause?

[Guest guest]

Hi Marita and Welcome,

I need to ask you about his fibromyalgia is he on Statin Drugs. I ask this

because I was on them and started having bad pain in my lower back going into my

hips and down my upper legs. After a lot testing, MIR's on my back they tired

to tell me I have fibromyalgia.

This all started when I was put on Crestor a Statin Drug. The more I told them

my pain was from this the more carp I heard that this in not possible.

Now that I can't stand up without help or walk unless I use a walker. My Dr.'s

took me off the Statin drugs and now they know all about this problem and how to

treat it.

I am on 1200 mgs of CoQ10 supplements and starting to get better.

http://www.spacedoc.net/muscle_pain_statins.htm

Now as for Gels and Creams men that might have a Thyroid problem can get a

thicker skin and the gels and creams can't get through the skin. Other men

there skin just will not let the gels and creams in.

What size needle was he using to shoot Testosterone in to his thighs.

I had this problem using a 25g x 1 " lg. needle. I read that the Dr. Shippen

that did the book " The Testosterone Syndrome " started doing shots on his self in

his book that is dated he was down on them.

Now he does his own shots subQ into the side of his belly using diabetic

syringes. He say he found the testosterone shot into the fat went into his

blood slower and he also found doing this keeps his Estradiol levels down. He

does this shot every 3 days.

I told my Dr. about this and he let me do my shots every 3 days but not subQ. I

use a small 27g 1ml x 1/2 " lg. needle and shoot into my thigh.

I do my shots every 3 days and my levels are dam good over 800. I have no pain

or problems guys will post the use a bigger needle they feel the longer needle

is better they are told by Dr.'s the shot needs to be deep into the muscle.

This I find is not true I know a lot of men that read Dr. Shippen does his shots

subQ and they do them this way and are doing great.

The trick in getting the thick oil out of the vial is to pull the amount of air

into the needle that his shot is. Then push the air into the vial then holding

the vial upside down pull the plunger all the way down and hold it. With my 27g

needle I get 5mls out of the vial in less then 2 min.'s.

Then when I do my shots I use a diff. spot each time I shoot and switch legs for

each shot. I have good levels no pain or problems. When I shoot the oil into

my thigh it comes out very slow and it needs to come out show it's best to shoot

thicker oil slower.

One thing I have found in men with his and my problems is low levels of Cortisol

the stress of all his health problems puts his Adrenals in over drive. They

over work do the stress of his health and how bad he feels.

So I urge you to get him tested for low cortisol levels doing a 4x's in a day

Saliva test you can buy this test and do it without a Dr.

Also check his Thyroid doing the following labs in this link and in this link is

where you can buy 4x's in a day Cortisol Saliva tests.

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/recommended-labwork/

Men need higher levels of Testosterone to support there joints and muscles.

It's best to try to get his Total Testosterone levels up into the upper 1/3 of

his labs range. And to test his Estradiol levels and keep them down to about 20

pg/ml.

There are Dr.'s out there dam good ones but they are very hard to find. A lot

of men I know drive or fly out to see Dr. in MI. he only needs to see you

once the rest he can do by phone or Email. He will even work with your family

Dr. to test and treat him over the phone.

www.allthingsmale.com

I have a friend I met on the web he is now a Dr.'s Aid working with Dr. O men

drive out to see them he is up on all your husbands problems send him an Email

talk to him.

His nick on the web is Hardasnails.

Overbeck hardasnails1973@... 484-868-0916 contact 1100 fayette

st Conshohocken Internal medicine Male and female hormone disorders and

metabolic disorders 610-828-2026

In the files section at the home page on the left side or your screen in this is

a file " Finding A New Male Hormone Dr. " read this it will help you when looking

for a new Dr.

Endo's and Uro's are not the best Dr.'s for this problem.

One more thing you can try is calling a Compounding Pharmacy and ask them for

the names and number of Dr.'s that buy Testosterone from them in your area.

When you get there number call first and ask questions like how many men does

the Dr. treat for low T, dose he check to see why the man is low, If a men is

Secondary will he use HCG and dose he test and treat for high levels of

Estradiol. You will know when you have found a good one.

http://www.collegepharmacy.com/menshealth/andropause.asp

ANEWrx

523 Parkway View Drive

Pittsburgh, PA 15205

877-788-8908 (ph)

877-788-8948 (fax)

Monday - Friday (9am - 6pm)

Saturday 10am - 2pm

www.ANEWrx.com

Here is a cut and paste of a study on doing T shots subQ.

=================================

Re: Injecting testosterone subcutaneously

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

STABLE TESTOSTERONE LEVELS ACHIEVED

WITH SUBCUTANEOUS TESTOSTERONE

INJECTIONS

M.B. Greenspan, C.M. Chang

Division of Urology, Department of Surgery, McMaster University,

Hamilton, ON, Canada

Objectives: The preferred technique of androgen replacement

has been intramuscular (IM) testosterone, but wide

variations in testosterone levels are often seen. Subcutaneous

(SC) testosterone injection is a novel approach; however,

its physiological effects are unclear. We therefore investigated

the sustainability of stable testosterone levels using

SC therapy. Patients and methods: Between May and

September 2005, we conducted a small pilot study involving

10 male patients with symptomatic late-onset hypogonadism.

Every patient had been stable on TE 200 mg IM for

41 year. Patients were instructed to self-inject with

testosterone enanthate (TE) 100 mg SC (DELATESTRYL

200 mg/cc, Theramed Corp, Canada) into the anterior

abdomen once weekly. Some patients were down-titrated

to 50 mg based on their total testosterone (T) at 4 weeks.

Informed consent was obtained as SC testosterone administration

is not officially approved by Health Canada. T

levels were measured before and 24 hours after injection

during weeks 1, 2, 3, and 4, and 96 hours after injection

in week 6 and 8. At week 12, PSA, CBC, and T levels

were measured however; the week 12 data are still being

collected. Results: Prior to initiation of SC therapy, T

was 19.14+3.48 nmol/l, hemoglobin 15.8+1.3 g/dl, hematocrit

0.47+0.02, and PSA 1.05+0.65 ng/ml. During

the first 4 weeks, there was a steady increase in

pre-injection T from 19.14+3.48 to 23.89+9.15 nmol/l

(p�0.1). However, after 8 weeks the post-injection T

(25.77+7.67 nmol/l) remained similar to that of week 1

(27.46+12.91 nmol/l). Patients tolerated this therapy with

no adverse effects. Conclusions: A once-week SC injection

of 50�100 mg of TE appears to achieve sustainable and

stable levels of physiological T. This technique offers

fewer physician visits and the use of smaller quantity of

medication, thus lower costs. However, the long term

clinical and physiological effects of this therapy need further

evaluation.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: Marita <mcdaniel@...>

> Subject: Finding the cause?

>

> Date: Tuesday, October 19, 2010, 11:25 PM

> I have never posted before, but have

> been lurking for a while now, and

> thought I'd ask the experts for advice.

> My husband has had low testosterone for a few years, and

> while it hasn't

> affected our sex lives so far, I am worried about him.

> He started with injections, which worked okay, but his

> thighs got so sore

> from them, and he didn't feel comfortable doing them

> anymore, so his endo

> switched him to androgel. That didn't work, so he was

> switched to a cream

> that the compounding pharmacy has to mix up for him. Well,

> he hasn't been

> able to absorb it at all, I don't think, as his test result

> came back today

> at a measly 163.

> Mark is 50 y/o and has a bunch of health issues, including

> fibromyalgia,

> celiac, osteoporosis, arthritis. He has had a cervical

> fusion in '07 and a

> few years before that a fusion on his left wrist.

> No one had questioned the fact that he has severe

> osteoporosis at such a

> young age until the brain surgeon that performed his

> cervical fusion did.

> Well, I've done some research since then, and I just don't

> get it. First he

> was thought to have a pituitary tumor, but one MRI ruled

> that out. Now he's

> just getting treated for the low testosterone, and neither

> his VA doctor nor

> his endo seem to be trying to figure out what the heck is

> causing it.

> Is this a normal occurrence? I am so sick and tired of

> telling doctors what

> we want done, but I want my husband to feel better. He gets

> migraine

> headaches, feels exhausted, lightheaded, foggy, and gets

> irritable a lot. He

> changed to a gluten free diet due to the celiac dx back in

> April, and has

> lost 20 lbs or so since then. He's probably at a good

> weight, but he looks

> thin to me, and he has certainly lost muscle tone. I'm not

> used to such a

> fragile looking man.

> I just did a little checking, and one site I found

> suggested a life

> extension clinic as the best place to start, with

> osteopaths as a 2nd

> choice, and urologists and endos as the 3rd choice.

> What do the experts here think about this?

> My biggest question is this: What do we need to do to find

> what is causing

> the low testosterone?

> Guidance in the right direction would be great, as I have

> NO clue as to how

> to proceed at this time. We just moved and we need to find

> new doctors,

> anyway, so I'm looking at this as a good chance to find a

> GOOD doctor for my

> husband.

> Thanks for any suggestions anybody might have.

>

> Marita in Heron, MT

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

I am not doctor, so take my observations for what they are worth.

I also have celiac disease and low testosterone. I don't have fibromyalgia.

I know that one of the co-morbidities with celiac is often osteoporosis,

because calcium absorption in the small intestines is one of the first to be

affected by the damage done by celiac. In addition, a number of other health

problems can result from mal-absorption. Could this part of the fibromyalgia

picture? I don't know the answer to that. But, if he has is not getting

regular endoscopies to take a look at how damaged his small instestine and

stomach are, then he might want to get a gastroenterologist who will do that

for him.

Is he actually gluten free? How cautious is he? I have been to culinary

school, and I worked restaurants for some years. Even with that sort of

knowledge, I find it impossible to remain gluten free when I am traveling or

eating out a lot. Restaurant environments are just too contaminated, and

often a well meaning staff still does not understand how important it is

when someone with celiac makes a request regarding their food requirements.

I had an appointment with my gastroenterologist the other day. She ordered

another endoscopy for me. She stated at the time, that even after people

think that they have been gluten free for more than a year, they usually see

damage because they are not in fact gluten free. The guy who has developed a

celiac vaccine which is in first stage trials states that 50% of people who

believe that they are gluten free are actually eating gluten in their diets.

I'm sorry if I belabored the point, but this is critical for his calcium

absorption, which will affect his osteoporosis. Often, people don't know

that they have celiac until they are diagnosed with osteoporosis.

As for the pain at the injection site. I decided to do my own injections,

and I am not comfortable hitting the glute for fear of puncturing the

sciatic nerve, and it is also harder to aspirate a self injection. I had

the same experience as your husband. The thigh was quite sore. I don't think

I could have done that weekly for very long. It was painful whenever I

walked. Running was out of the question for a few days after the injection,

and my injection was only 0.5 mL. A 1 or 2mL injection would have been

worse, no doubt.

The solution that I have found is a much smaller injection every three days.

I use insulin syringes with 30G needles. The ones that I have are 30GX1/2 "

which seems to work fine for me. I am fairly lean, so my skin is thin enough

to get to the muscle with a short needle. I am slightly aware of yesterday's

injection, but it is nothing intolerable.

Good luck.

On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 7:50 AM, philip georgian <pmgamer18@...>wrote:

>

>

> Hi Marita and Welcome,

>

> I need to ask you about his fibromyalgia is he on Statin Drugs. I ask this

> because I was on them and started having bad pain in my lower back going

> into my hips and down my upper legs. After a lot testing, MIR's on my back

> they tired to tell me I have fibromyalgia.

>

> This all started when I was put on Crestor a Statin Drug. The more I told

> them my pain was from this the more carp I heard that this in not possible.

>

> Now that I can't stand up without help or walk unless I use a walker. My

> Dr.'s took me off the Statin drugs and now they know all about this problem

> and how to treat it.

>

> I am on 1200 mgs of CoQ10 supplements and starting to get better.

> http://www.spacedoc.net/muscle_pain_statins.htm

>

> Now as for Gels and Creams men that might have a Thyroid problem can get a

> thicker skin and the gels and creams can't get through the skin. Other men

> there skin just will not let the gels and creams in.

>

> What size needle was he using to shoot Testosterone in to his thighs.

>

> I had this problem using a 25g x 1 " lg. needle. I read that the Dr. Shippen

> that did the book " The Testosterone Syndrome " started doing shots on his

> self in his book that is dated he was down on them.

>

> Now he does his own shots subQ into the side of his belly using diabetic

> syringes. He say he found the testosterone shot into the fat went into his

> blood slower and he also found doing this keeps his Estradiol levels down.

> He does this shot every 3 days.

>

> I told my Dr. about this and he let me do my shots every 3 days but not

> subQ. I use a small 27g 1ml x 1/2 " lg. needle and shoot into my thigh.

>

> I do my shots every 3 days and my levels are dam good over 800. I have no

> pain or problems guys will post the use a bigger needle they feel the longer

> needle is better they are told by Dr.'s the shot needs to be deep into the

> muscle.

>

> This I find is not true I know a lot of men that read Dr. Shippen does his

> shots subQ and they do them this way and are doing great.

>

> The trick in getting the thick oil out of the vial is to pull the amount of

> air into the needle that his shot is. Then push the air into the vial then

> holding the vial upside down pull the plunger all the way down and hold it.

> With my 27g needle I get 5mls out of the vial in less then 2 min.'s.

>

> Then when I do my shots I use a diff. spot each time I shoot and switch

> legs for each shot. I have good levels no pain or problems. When I shoot the

> oil into my thigh it comes out very slow and it needs to come out show it's

> best to shoot thicker oil slower.

>

> One thing I have found in men with his and my problems is low levels of

> Cortisol the stress of all his health problems puts his Adrenals in over

> drive. They over work do the stress of his health and how bad he feels.

>

> So I urge you to get him tested for low cortisol levels doing a 4x's in a

> day Saliva test you can buy this test and do it without a Dr.

>

> Also check his Thyroid doing the following labs in this link and in this

> link is where you can buy 4x's in a day Cortisol Saliva tests.

> http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/recommended-labwork/

>

> Men need higher levels of Testosterone to support there joints and muscles.

> It's best to try to get his Total Testosterone levels up into the upper 1/3

> of his labs range. And to test his Estradiol levels and keep them down to

> about 20 pg/ml.

>

> There are Dr.'s out there dam good ones but they are very hard to find. A

> lot of men I know drive or fly out to see Dr. in MI. he only needs to

> see you once the rest he can do by phone or Email. He will even work with

> your family Dr. to test and treat him over the phone.

> www.allthingsmale.com

>

> I have a friend I met on the web he is now a Dr.'s Aid working with Dr. O

> men drive out to see them he is up on all your husbands problems send him an

> Email talk to him.

> His nick on the web is Hardasnails.

> Overbeck

hardasnails1973@...<hardasnails1973%40comcast.net>484-868-0916 contact

1100 fayette st Conshohocken Internal medicine Male and

> female hormone disorders and metabolic disorders 610-828-2026

>

> In the files section at the home page on the left side or your screen in

> this is a file " Finding A New Male Hormone Dr. " read this it will help you

> when looking for a new Dr.

>

> Endo's and Uro's are not the best Dr.'s for this problem.

>

> One more thing you can try is calling a Compounding Pharmacy and ask them

> for the names and number of Dr.'s that buy Testosterone from them in your

> area.

>

> When you get there number call first and ask questions like how many men

> does the Dr. treat for low T, dose he check to see why the man is low, If a

> men is Secondary will he use HCG and dose he test and treat for high levels

> of Estradiol. You will know when you have found a good one.

>

> http://www.collegepharmacy.com/menshealth/andropause.asp

>

> ANEWrx

> 523 Parkway View Drive

> Pittsburgh, PA 15205

> 877-788-8908 (ph)

> 877-788-8948 (fax)

> Monday - Friday (9am - 6pm)

> Saturday 10am - 2pm

>

> www.ANEWrx.com

>

> Here is a cut and paste of a study on doing T shots subQ.

> =================================

> Re: Injecting testosterone subcutaneously

> ----------------------------------------------------------

>

> STABLE TESTOSTERONE LEVELS ACHIEVED

> WITH SUBCUTANEOUS TESTOSTERONE

> INJECTIONS

> M.B. Greenspan, C.M. Chang

> Division of Urology, Department of Surgery, McMaster University,

> Hamilton, ON, Canada

> Objectives: The preferred technique of androgen replacement

> has been intramuscular (IM) testosterone, but wide

> variations in testosterone levels are often seen. Subcutaneous

> (SC) testosterone injection is a novel approach; however,

> its physiological effects are unclear. We therefore investigated

> the sustainability of stable testosterone levels using

> SC therapy. Patients and methods: Between May and

> September 2005, we conducted a small pilot study involving

> 10 male patients with symptomatic late-onset hypogonadism.

> Every patient had been stable on TE 200 mg IM for

> 41 year. Patients were instructed to self-inject with

> testosterone enanthate (TE) 100 mg SC (DELATESTRYL

> 200 mg/cc, Theramed Corp, Canada) into the anterior

> abdomen once weekly. Some patients were down-titrated

> to 50 mg based on their total testosterone (T) at 4 weeks.

> Informed consent was obtained as SC testosterone administration

> is not officially approved by Health Canada. T

> levels were measured before and 24 hours after injection

> during weeks 1, 2, 3, and 4, and 96 hours after injection

> in week 6 and 8. At week 12, PSA, CBC, and T levels

> were measured however; the week 12 data are still being

> collected. Results: Prior to initiation of SC therapy, T

> was 19.14+3.48 nmol/l, hemoglobin 15.8+1.3 g/dl, hematocrit

> 0.47+0.02, and PSA 1.05+0.65 ng/ml. During

> the first 4 weeks, there was a steady increase in

> pre-injection T from 19.14+3.48 to 23.89+9.15 nmol/l

> (p�0.1). However, after 8 weeks the post-injection T

> (25.77+7.67 nmol/l) remained similar to that of week 1

> (27.46+12.91 nmol/l). Patients tolerated this therapy with

> no adverse effects. Conclusions: A once-week SC injection

> of 50�100 mg of TE appears to achieve sustainable and

> stable levels of physiological T. This technique offers

> fewer physician visits and the use of smaller quantity of

> medication, thus lower costs. However, the long term

> clinical and physiological effects of this therapy need further

> evaluation.

> Co-Moderator

> Phil

>

>

>

> > From: Marita <mcdaniel@... <mcdaniel%40blackfoot.net>>

> > Subject: Finding the cause?

> > < %40>

> > Date: Tuesday, October 19, 2010, 11:25 PM

>

> > I have never posted before, but have

> > been lurking for a while now, and

> > thought I'd ask the experts for advice.

> > My husband has had low testosterone for a few years, and

> > while it hasn't

> > affected our sex lives so far, I am worried about him.

> > He started with injections, which worked okay, but his

> > thighs got so sore

> > from them, and he didn't feel comfortable doing them

> > anymore, so his endo

> > switched him to androgel. That didn't work, so he was

> > switched to a cream

> > that the compounding pharmacy has to mix up for him. Well,

> > he hasn't been

> > able to absorb it at all, I don't think, as his test result

> > came back today

> > at a measly 163.

> > Mark is 50 y/o and has a bunch of health issues, including

> > fibromyalgia,

> > celiac, osteoporosis, arthritis. He has had a cervical

> > fusion in '07 and a

> > few years before that a fusion on his left wrist.

> > No one had questioned the fact that he has severe

> > osteoporosis at such a

> > young age until the brain surgeon that performed his

> > cervical fusion did.

> > Well, I've done some research since then, and I just don't

> > get it. First he

> > was thought to have a pituitary tumor, but one MRI ruled

> > that out. Now he's

> > just getting treated for the low testosterone, and neither

> > his VA doctor nor

> > his endo seem to be trying to figure out what the heck is

> > causing it.

> > Is this a normal occurrence? I am so sick and tired of

> > telling doctors what

> > we want done, but I want my husband to feel better. He gets

> > migraine

> > headaches, feels exhausted, lightheaded, foggy, and gets

> > irritable a lot. He

> > changed to a gluten free diet due to the celiac dx back in

> > April, and has

> > lost 20 lbs or so since then. He's probably at a good

> > weight, but he looks

> > thin to me, and he has certainly lost muscle tone. I'm not

> > used to such a

> > fragile looking man.

> > I just did a little checking, and one site I found

> > suggested a life

> > extension clinic as the best place to start, with

> > osteopaths as a 2nd

> > choice, and urologists and endos as the 3rd choice.

> > What do the experts here think about this?

> > My biggest question is this: What do we need to do to find

> > what is causing

> > the low testosterone?

> > Guidance in the right direction would be great, as I have

> > NO clue as to how

> > to proceed at this time. We just moved and we need to find

> > new doctors,

> > anyway, so I'm looking at this as a good chance to find a

> > GOOD doctor for my

> > husband.

> > Thanks for any suggestions anybody might have.

> >

> > Marita in Heron, MT

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Oh, I forgot to mention. My testosterone dose is 50 mg per shot every three

days. So, with a 250 mg / mL medicine, then the injection is quite small -

only 0.2 mL. With such a small injection, I can do it in the shoulder. I

have not tried the thigh with that dose. But I believe that the smaller the

amount of oil injected, then the less pain.

I have used injections for ED for many years, and I found out early on that

if I apply direct pressure to the injection site for about 30 seconds after

the injection, that I did not develop any bruising at the injection site. If

I was in a hurry, and did not apply pressure, then there would often be

bruising. I believe that minimizing bruising also helps to reduce pain.

On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 8:42 AM, Spanky <spankysd@...> wrote:

> I am not doctor, so take my observations for what they are worth.

>

> I also have celiac disease and low testosterone. I don't have fibromyalgia.

>

> I know that one of the co-morbidities with celiac is often osteoporosis,

> because calcium absorption in the small intestines is one of the first to be

> affected by the damage done by celiac. In addition, a number of other health

> problems can result from mal-absorption. Could this part of the fibromyalgia

> picture? I don't know the answer to that. But, if he has is not getting

> regular endoscopies to take a look at how damaged his small instestine and

> stomach are, then he might want to get a gastroenterologist who will do that

> for him.

>

> Is he actually gluten free? How cautious is he? I have been to culinary

> school, and I worked restaurants for some years. Even with that sort of

> knowledge, I find it impossible to remain gluten free when I am traveling or

> eating out a lot. Restaurant environments are just too contaminated, and

> often a well meaning staff still does not understand how important it is

> when someone with celiac makes a request regarding their food requirements.

> I had an appointment with my gastroenterologist the other day. She ordered

> another endoscopy for me. She stated at the time, that even after people

> think that they have been gluten free for more than a year, they usually see

> damage because they are not in fact gluten free. The guy who has developed a

> celiac vaccine which is in first stage trials states that 50% of people who

> believe that they are gluten free are actually eating gluten in their diets.

>

> I'm sorry if I belabored the point, but this is critical for his calcium

> absorption, which will affect his osteoporosis. Often, people don't know

> that they have celiac until they are diagnosed with osteoporosis.

>

> As for the pain at the injection site. I decided to do my own injections,

> and I am not comfortable hitting the glute for fear of puncturing the

> sciatic nerve, and it is also harder to aspirate a self injection. I had

> the same experience as your husband. The thigh was quite sore. I don't think

> I could have done that weekly for very long. It was painful whenever I

> walked. Running was out of the question for a few days after the injection,

> and my injection was only 0.5 mL. A 1 or 2mL injection would have been

> worse, no doubt.

>

> The solution that I have found is a much smaller injection every three

> days. I use insulin syringes with 30G needles. The ones that I have are

> 30GX1/2 " which seems to work fine for me. I am fairly lean, so my skin is

> thin enough to get to the muscle with a short needle. I am slightly aware of

> yesterday's injection, but it is nothing intolerable.

>

> Good luck.

>

>

> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 7:50 AM, philip georgian <pmgamer18@...>wrote:

>

>>

>>

>> Hi Marita and Welcome,

>>

>> I need to ask you about his fibromyalgia is he on Statin Drugs. I ask this

>> because I was on them and started having bad pain in my lower back going

>> into my hips and down my upper legs. After a lot testing, MIR's on my back

>> they tired to tell me I have fibromyalgia.

>>

>> This all started when I was put on Crestor a Statin Drug. The more I told

>> them my pain was from this the more carp I heard that this in not possible.

>>

>> Now that I can't stand up without help or walk unless I use a walker. My

>> Dr.'s took me off the Statin drugs and now they know all about this problem

>> and how to treat it.

>>

>> I am on 1200 mgs of CoQ10 supplements and starting to get better.

>> http://www.spacedoc.net/muscle_pain_statins.htm

>>

>> Now as for Gels and Creams men that might have a Thyroid problem can get a

>> thicker skin and the gels and creams can't get through the skin. Other men

>> there skin just will not let the gels and creams in.

>>

>> What size needle was he using to shoot Testosterone in to his thighs.

>>

>> I had this problem using a 25g x 1 " lg. needle. I read that the Dr.

>> Shippen that did the book " The Testosterone Syndrome " started doing shots on

>> his self in his book that is dated he was down on them.

>>

>> Now he does his own shots subQ into the side of his belly using diabetic

>> syringes. He say he found the testosterone shot into the fat went into his

>> blood slower and he also found doing this keeps his Estradiol levels down.

>> He does this shot every 3 days.

>>

>> I told my Dr. about this and he let me do my shots every 3 days but not

>> subQ. I use a small 27g 1ml x 1/2 " lg. needle and shoot into my thigh.

>>

>> I do my shots every 3 days and my levels are dam good over 800. I have no

>> pain or problems guys will post the use a bigger needle they feel the longer

>> needle is better they are told by Dr.'s the shot needs to be deep into the

>> muscle.

>>

>> This I find is not true I know a lot of men that read Dr. Shippen does his

>> shots subQ and they do them this way and are doing great.

>>

>> The trick in getting the thick oil out of the vial is to pull the amount

>> of air into the needle that his shot is. Then push the air into the vial

>> then holding the vial upside down pull the plunger all the way down and hold

>> it. With my 27g needle I get 5mls out of the vial in less then 2 min.'s.

>>

>> Then when I do my shots I use a diff. spot each time I shoot and switch

>> legs for each shot. I have good levels no pain or problems. When I shoot the

>> oil into my thigh it comes out very slow and it needs to come out show it's

>> best to shoot thicker oil slower.

>>

>> One thing I have found in men with his and my problems is low levels of

>> Cortisol the stress of all his health problems puts his Adrenals in over

>> drive. They over work do the stress of his health and how bad he feels.

>>

>> So I urge you to get him tested for low cortisol levels doing a 4x's in a

>> day Saliva test you can buy this test and do it without a Dr.

>>

>> Also check his Thyroid doing the following labs in this link and in this

>> link is where you can buy 4x's in a day Cortisol Saliva tests.

>> http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/recommended-labwork/

>>

>> Men need higher levels of Testosterone to support there joints and

>> muscles. It's best to try to get his Total Testosterone levels up into the

>> upper 1/3 of his labs range. And to test his Estradiol levels and keep them

>> down to about 20 pg/ml.

>>

>> There are Dr.'s out there dam good ones but they are very hard to find. A

>> lot of men I know drive or fly out to see Dr. in MI. he only needs to

>> see you once the rest he can do by phone or Email. He will even work with

>> your family Dr. to test and treat him over the phone.

>> www.allthingsmale.com

>>

>> I have a friend I met on the web he is now a Dr.'s Aid working with Dr. O

>> men drive out to see them he is up on all your husbands problems send him an

>> Email talk to him.

>> His nick on the web is Hardasnails.

>> Overbeck

hardasnails1973@...<hardasnails1973%40comcast.net>484-868-0916 contact

1100 fayette st Conshohocken Internal medicine Male and

>> female hormone disorders and metabolic disorders 610-828-2026

>>

>> In the files section at the home page on the left side or your screen in

>> this is a file " Finding A New Male Hormone Dr. " read this it will help you

>> when looking for a new Dr.

>>

>> Endo's and Uro's are not the best Dr.'s for this problem.

>>

>> One more thing you can try is calling a Compounding Pharmacy and ask them

>> for the names and number of Dr.'s that buy Testosterone from them in your

>> area.

>>

>> When you get there number call first and ask questions like how many men

>> does the Dr. treat for low T, dose he check to see why the man is low, If a

>> men is Secondary will he use HCG and dose he test and treat for high levels

>> of Estradiol. You will know when you have found a good one.

>>

>> http://www.collegepharmacy.com/menshealth/andropause.asp

>>

>> ANEWrx

>> 523 Parkway View Drive

>> Pittsburgh, PA 15205

>> 877-788-8908 (ph)

>> 877-788-8948 (fax)

>> Monday - Friday (9am - 6pm)

>> Saturday 10am - 2pm

>>

>> www.ANEWrx.com

>>

>> Here is a cut and paste of a study on doing T shots subQ.

>> =================================

>> Re: Injecting testosterone subcutaneously

>> ----------------------------------------------------------

>>

>> STABLE TESTOSTERONE LEVELS ACHIEVED

>> WITH SUBCUTANEOUS TESTOSTERONE

>> INJECTIONS

>> M.B. Greenspan, C.M. Chang

>> Division of Urology, Department of Surgery, McMaster University,

>> Hamilton, ON, Canada

>> Objectives: The preferred technique of androgen replacement

>> has been intramuscular (IM) testosterone, but wide

>> variations in testosterone levels are often seen. Subcutaneous

>> (SC) testosterone injection is a novel approach; however,

>> its physiological effects are unclear. We therefore investigated

>> the sustainability of stable testosterone levels using

>> SC therapy. Patients and methods: Between May and

>> September 2005, we conducted a small pilot study involving

>> 10 male patients with symptomatic late-onset hypogonadism.

>> Every patient had been stable on TE 200 mg IM for

>> 41 year. Patients were instructed to self-inject with

>> testosterone enanthate (TE) 100 mg SC (DELATESTRYL

>> 200 mg/cc, Theramed Corp, Canada) into the anterior

>> abdomen once weekly. Some patients were down-titrated

>> to 50 mg based on their total testosterone (T) at 4 weeks.

>> Informed consent was obtained as SC testosterone administration

>> is not officially approved by Health Canada. T

>> levels were measured before and 24 hours after injection

>> during weeks 1, 2, 3, and 4, and 96 hours after injection

>> in week 6 and 8. At week 12, PSA, CBC, and T levels

>> were measured however; the week 12 data are still being

>> collected. Results: Prior to initiation of SC therapy, T

>> was 19.14+3.48 nmol/l, hemoglobin 15.8+1.3 g/dl, hematocrit

>> 0.47+0.02, and PSA 1.05+0.65 ng/ml. During

>> the first 4 weeks, there was a steady increase in

>> pre-injection T from 19.14+3.48 to 23.89+9.15 nmol/l

>> (p�0.1). However, after 8 weeks the post-injection T

>> (25.77+7.67 nmol/l) remained similar to that of week 1

>> (27.46+12.91 nmol/l). Patients tolerated this therapy with

>> no adverse effects. Conclusions: A once-week SC injection

>> of 50�100 mg of TE appears to achieve sustainable and

>> stable levels of physiological T. This technique offers

>> fewer physician visits and the use of smaller quantity of

>> medication, thus lower costs. However, the long term

>> clinical and physiological effects of this therapy need further

>> evaluation.

>> Co-Moderator

>> Phil

>>

>>

>>

>> > From: Marita <mcdaniel@... <mcdaniel%40blackfoot.net>>

>> > Subject: Finding the cause?

>> > < %40>

>> > Date: Tuesday, October 19, 2010, 11:25 PM

>>

>> > I have never posted before, but have

>> > been lurking for a while now, and

>> > thought I'd ask the experts for advice.

>> > My husband has had low testosterone for a few years, and

>> > while it hasn't

>> > affected our sex lives so far, I am worried about him.

>> > He started with injections, which worked okay, but his

>> > thighs got so sore

>> > from them, and he didn't feel comfortable doing them

>> > anymore, so his endo

>> > switched him to androgel. That didn't work, so he was

>> > switched to a cream

>> > that the compounding pharmacy has to mix up for him. Well,

>> > he hasn't been

>> > able to absorb it at all, I don't think, as his test result

>> > came back today

>> > at a measly 163.

>> > Mark is 50 y/o and has a bunch of health issues, including

>> > fibromyalgia,

>> > celiac, osteoporosis, arthritis. He has had a cervical

>> > fusion in '07 and a

>> > few years before that a fusion on his left wrist.

>> > No one had questioned the fact that he has severe

>> > osteoporosis at such a

>> > young age until the brain surgeon that performed his

>> > cervical fusion did.

>> > Well, I've done some research since then, and I just don't

>> > get it. First he

>> > was thought to have a pituitary tumor, but one MRI ruled

>> > that out. Now he's

>> > just getting treated for the low testosterone, and neither

>> > his VA doctor nor

>> > his endo seem to be trying to figure out what the heck is

>> > causing it.

>> > Is this a normal occurrence? I am so sick and tired of

>> > telling doctors what

>> > we want done, but I want my husband to feel better. He gets

>> > migraine

>> > headaches, feels exhausted, lightheaded, foggy, and gets

>> > irritable a lot. He

>> > changed to a gluten free diet due to the celiac dx back in

>> > April, and has

>> > lost 20 lbs or so since then. He's probably at a good

>> > weight, but he looks

>> > thin to me, and he has certainly lost muscle tone. I'm not

>> > used to such a

>> > fragile looking man.

>> > I just did a little checking, and one site I found

>> > suggested a life

>> > extension clinic as the best place to start, with

>> > osteopaths as a 2nd

>> > choice, and urologists and endos as the 3rd choice.

>> > What do the experts here think about this?

>> > My biggest question is this: What do we need to do to find

>> > what is causing

>> > the low testosterone?

>> > Guidance in the right direction would be great, as I have

>> > NO clue as to how

>> > to proceed at this time. We just moved and we need to find

>> > new doctors,

>> > anyway, so I'm looking at this as a good chance to find a

>> > GOOD doctor for my

>> > husband.

>> > Thanks for any suggestions anybody might have.

>> >

>> > Marita in Heron, MT

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> > ------------------------------------

>> >

>> >

[Guest guest]

Hi Phil, and thank you for welcoming me. I was a little hesitant at first

since I'm a woman and so far, not having any hormonal problems, at least not

that I'm aware of.

>> I need to ask you about his fibromyalgia is he on Statin Drugs. I ask

>> this because I was on them and started having bad pain in my lower back

>> going into my hips and down my upper legs. After a lot testing, MIR's on

>> my back they tired to tell me I have fibromyalgia. <<

No, his fibro *history* started when he fell on his back during an exercise

in the Air Force when he was only 19. We didn't find out until a couple

years or so ago that this accident apparently caused a hairline fracture

somewhere in his thoracic area. That's when his back problems started, and

he's gotten progressively worse over the years.

His VA doctor wants him on statin drugs because his cholesterol is elevated,

but so far he hasn't started. I've done too much research on the subject

and, to be quite frank, I believe statin drugs are WAY over prescribed in

this country, and only a small percentage of people with high cholesterol

actually have the kind that absolutely need the drugs. The rest of the

population would be better off trying to get high cholesterol under control

by changing their diet and exercising. That is MY opinion, anyway....;-)

>> This all started when I was put on Crestor a Statin Drug. The more I

>> told them my pain was from this the more carp I heard that this in not

>> possible. <<

Yeah, yeah, the usual. I'm so familiar with that kind of stuff, it's not

funny. One time Mark was put on Cymbalta, and I did research on it right

away, and questioned 2 doctors about the worst side effect, which is

necrosis of the jaw bone. No, not to worry, that is really rare, I wouldn't

worry about it. Well, about 2 years later, I noticed him rubbing his chin a

lot and moving his lower jaw from side to side quite a bit. When asked, he

told me that yes, his jaw was hurting him. When we told the VA doctor, she

said to IMMEDIATELY stop the Cymbalta. I guess it was the first sign of that

worst side effect. Thankfully it hasn't gotten worse, and it's been a couple

years or so since he stopped taking it.

>> Now that I can't stand up without help or walk unless I use a walker. My

>> Dr.'s took me off the Statin drugs and now they know all about this

>> problem and how to treat it. <<

NO KIDDING!!! I'm so sorry to hear that, Phil, and that is something I

haven't heard of, yet. I thought, though, that once on a statin drug, that

you can't ever go off?

>> I am on 1200 mgs of CoQ10 supplements and starting to get better.

http://www.spacedoc.net/muscle_pain_statins.htm <<

Oh, good, I'm glad that's helping you, and I will check that link out in a

bit. I don't know if any of you are familiar with Dr. Mercola or not, but

I've been reading his newsletter for a few years now, and he's written tons

of warnings about statin drugs in the past, among many other drugs that the

FDA approves way too easily, IMO.

>> What size needle was he using to shoot Testosterone in to his thighs. <<

I just asked him, all he remembers is that they were 1 1/2 " long, and

friggin' HUGE (his statement).

The endo's office is sending a script to get the injections again, will let

you know how big the needles are when we get them, and how Mark is handling

them this time.

He only had to give himself the injection every 2 weeks, which was nice.

>> I told my Dr. about this and he let me do my shots every 3 days but not

>> subQ. I use a small 27g 1ml x 1/2 " lg. needle and shoot into my thigh.

>> <<

That is very interesting, and I will mention that to his new doctor,

whomever that may be.

>> One thing I have found in men with his and my problems is low levels of

>> Cortisol the stress of all his health problems puts his Adrenals in over

>> drive. They over work do the stress of his health and how bad he feels.

>> <<

I have to dig out all the copies of his blood test results, I know that his

cortisol has been tested before.

Boy oh boy, you have given us a LOT to read and think about, Phil. We both

REALLY appreciate that a BUNCH!!! I'm so glad I finally asked you guys for

help, now we have some really good info to wade through, and make some

important decisions.

>> I have a friend I met on the web he is now a Dr.'s Aid working with Dr. O

>> men drive out to see them he is up on all your husbands problems send him

>> an Email talk to him. <<

I will definitely do that, I can't thank you enough for all the info you

have given us.

I will post again to give you an update.

Marita in Heron, MT

[Guest guest]

I have a rather simplistic view on finding the cause of low testosterone.

Whether it is a pituitary problem or testicular problem or something else, the

treatment is the same.

Does it really matter what the exact cause is?

My internist does bloodwork and looks for things that are out of the normal

range. If there is something that can bring a particular component closer to

normal, then I take that.

My testosterone was 150 on a scale of 300-1000, so I get testosterone shots. My

cholesterol was high, so I get lipitor, my blood pressure was high so I get

Benicar/HCT. I have GERD, so I take omeprazole.

I also take a baby asprin, multivitamin and fish oil capsule.

Result: my bloodwork and vital signs are all normal and we call that " healthy " .

It will take a few decades before we discover whether bring all these parameters

into the normal range really makes us healthy, but that's the best we can do

now.

Randy Hoops

> What do the experts here think about this?

> My biggest question is this: What do we need to do to find what is causing

> the low testosterone?

> Marita in Heron, MT

>

[Guest guest]

High cholesterol is hypothyroidism.

Low testosterone can also be hypo.

My testo went up from 10 to 25 on T4-treatment. Range: 10-40.

My poin is: Thyroid can correct everything alone.

Sendt fra min iPhone

Den 21. okt. 2010 kl. 01.41 skrev " k0cm " <Randy@...>:

I have a rather simplistic view on finding the cause of low testosterone.

Whether it is a pituitary problem or testicular problem or something else, the

treatment is the same.

Does it really matter what the exact cause is?

My internist does bloodwork and looks for things that are out of the normal

range. If there is something that can bring a particular component closer to

normal, then I take that.

My testosterone was 150 on a scale of 300-1000, so I get testosterone shots. My

cholesterol was high, so I get lipitor, my blood pressure was high so I get

Benicar/HCT. I have GERD, so I take omeprazole.

I also take a baby asprin, multivitamin and fish oil capsule.

Result: my bloodwork and vital signs are all normal and we call that " healthy " .

It will take a few decades before we discover whether bring all these parameters

into the normal range really makes us healthy, but that's the best we can do

now.

Randy Hoops

> What do the experts here think about this?

> My biggest question is this: What do we need to do to find what is causing

> the low testosterone?

> Marita in Heron, MT

>

[Guest guest]

What is the thyroid labs are normal?

Randy

>

> High cholesterol is hypothyroidism.

> Low testosterone can also be hypo.

> My testo went up from 10 to 25 on T4-treatment. Range: 10-40.

> My poin is: Thyroid can correct everything alone.

>

>

[Guest guest]

>> But, if he has is not getting

regular endoscopies to take a look at how damaged his small instestine and

stomach are, then he might want to get a gastroenterologist who will do that

for him. <<

He hasn't even seen a GE, yet. His neurologist had the suspicion and ordered

an endoscopy. It did not confirm the dx, but his doctor told him that none

of the tests are 100%, and that he still thinks we're dealing with CD.

>> Is he actually gluten free? How cautious is he? <<

Chances are, as you said, he's not totally GF, but he's trying as best as he

can not to ingest any. He doesn't have any immediate reaction to it, so we'd

never be able to tell for sure.

>>The guy who has developed a

celiac vaccine which is in first stage trials states that 50% of people who

believe that they are gluten free are actually eating gluten in their diets.

<<

Another vaccine? Just what we needed...;-) Yes, I totally believe that, too.

>> The solution that I have found is a much smaller injection every three

>> days.

I use insulin syringes with 30G needles. The ones that I have are 30GX1/2 "

which seems to work fine for me. I am fairly lean, so my skin is thin enough

to get to the muscle with a short needle. I am slightly aware of yesterday's

injection, but it is nothing intolerable. <<

Thanks for the suggestions, I am keeping all of them for future reference.

Marita

[Guest guest]

>> Does it really matter what the exact cause is? <<

Yes, I do believe that it matters. I'd much rather try to cure the cause

than just treat the symptoms. Meaning if the cause is cured, then there's no

need to treat anything. Hope that makes sense.

>> My testosterone was 150 on a scale of 300-1000, so I get testosterone

>> shots. My cholesterol was high, so I get lipitor, my blood pressure was

>> high so I get Benicar/HCT. I have GERD, so I take omeprazole. <<

I'm sorry to hear that.

>> Result: my bloodwork and vital signs are all normal and we call that

>> " healthy " . <<

I have a different view. I wouldn't call a person needing all the meds that

you have to take healthy just because their bloodwork is okay.

Marita

[Guest guest]

>> High cholesterol is hypothyroidism. <<

---------------------------

I think hypothyroidism can cause high cholesterol, yes, but they're

certainly not the same. There's a little difference there, just wanted to

mention that.

Marita

[Guest guest]

" k0cm " <Randy@...> wrote:

>

> I have a rather simplistic view on finding the cause of low testosterone.

Whether it is a pituitary problem or testicular problem or something else, the

treatment is the same.

>

> Does it really matter what the exact cause is?

Umm, yes, your case is a perfect example of western medical thinking, which is

treat/cover-up a symptom instead of fixing the problem.

> My testosterone was 150 on a scale of 300-1000, so I get testosterone shots.

Since shots are for life, *I* would personally want to know if I was primary or

secondary. Because sometimes, other things like hypothyroid can cause it.

Bring thyroid levels up, the testosterone comes up too. Daily pills are much

less painful and cumbersome than vials and needles.

>My cholesterol was high, so I get lipitor

Low thyroid causes high cholesterol. This is documented in studies from the

1900s, though the pharmaceuticals have somehow made it seem like statins are the

only answer. Have you not read any of Phil's posts on statins? There are

class-action lawsuits and multiple forums dealing with lives ruined by statins.

>my blood pressure was high so I get Benicar/HCT.

Again, low thyroid can cause high BP. These drugs also have long-term side

effects and I'm sure there are forums about their detrimental effects too.

> I have GERD, so I take omeprazole.

Again, low thyroid.

> I also take a baby asprin, multivitamin and fish oil capsule.

Even aspirin, long-term has side effects.

> Result: my bloodwork and vital signs are all normal and we call that

" healthy " .

Randy, no offense, but I would hardly call someone on all those meds " healthy. "

Someone on life support can have a normal pulse and BP too. Would you consider

that healthy?

> It will take a few decades before we discover whether bring all these

parameters into the normal range really makes us healthy, but that's the best we

can do now.

It is already known now that all those meds don't make you healthy, they make

you sick. And there is something to be said about quality of life. Can you

honestly say that you feel great today taking all those meds?

Sorry, you hit a nerve,

Barb

[Guest guest]

Not a problem, Barb.... no offense taken.

Let's put it this way. I'm 61 years old, go to water aerobics several times a

week. I can walk 3 hours continuously without resting.

I can do a full hour on an elliptical exercise machine with a heart rate of 130

bpm. I use pin-select weight machines and with the light weight settings I use

of 30-50 lbs, I can do very high reps... as many as 50 without getting winded.

I couldn't do that when I was 40.

Yep! I really do feel great.

Randy

> >

Can you honestly say that you feel great today taking all those meds?

>

> Sorry, you hit a nerve,

> Barb

>

[Guest guest]

Just to use an example from this thread, someone has osteoporosis, and also

may have celiac disease. Celiac disease happens to cause nutrient

malabsorption, and often the first symptom which presents itself is

osteoporosis from the failure to digest calcium or vitamin D. So, you could

treat the osteo with calcium supplements which is not bioavailable to the

patient due to intestinal damage, or you could find the root cause and treat

the celiac disease.

Just one example of how it is more desirable to treat the underlying

pathology, than it is to simply relieve symptoms. Relieving symptoms is

popular because it is cheap and easy, and the patients like it because they

get quick relief. For example, I had serious rashes, bad enough to leave

scar tissue. The underlying cause was a disease which went undiagnosed for

several years. My internist and my dermatologist treated the rash with

steroids to make the symptoms go away, rather than look for the underlying

cause.

On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 6:45 PM, k0cm <Randy@...> wrote:

>

>

> Not a problem, Barb.... no offense taken.

>

> Let's put it this way. I'm 61 years old, go to water aerobics several times

> a week. I can walk 3 hours continuously without resting.

>

> I can do a full hour on an elliptical exercise machine with a heart rate of

> 130 bpm. I use pin-select weight machines and with the light weight settings

> I use of 30-50 lbs, I can do very high reps... as many as 50 without getting

> winded.

>

> I couldn't do that when I was 40.

>

> Yep! I really do feel great.

>

> Randy

>

>

> > >

> Can you honestly say that you feel great today taking all those meds?

> >

> > Sorry, you hit a nerve,

> > Barb

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Oh... and I forgot to mention that many diseases are progressive. The longer

they remain untreated, then the more severe the damage and the co-morbidity.

Masking the symptoms merely provides temporary relief while masking the

progression of the disease. There is good reason to understand the causes or

symptoms, if that is possible.

On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 7:06 PM, Spanky <spankysd@...> wrote:

> Just to use an example from this thread, someone has osteoporosis, and also

> may have celiac disease. Celiac disease happens to cause nutrient

> malabsorption, and often the first symptom which presents itself is

> osteoporosis from the failure to digest calcium or vitamin D. So, you could

> treat the osteo with calcium supplements which is not bioavailable to the

> patient due to intestinal damage, or you could find the root cause and treat

> the celiac disease.

>

> Just one example of how it is more desirable to treat the underlying

> pathology, than it is to simply relieve symptoms. Relieving symptoms is

> popular because it is cheap and easy, and the patients like it because they

> get quick relief. For example, I had serious rashes, bad enough to leave

> scar tissue. The underlying cause was a disease which went undiagnosed for

> several years. My internist and my dermatologist treated the rash with

> steroids to make the symptoms go away, rather than look for the underlying

> cause.

>

>

> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 6:45 PM, k0cm <Randy@...> wrote:

>

>>

>>

>> Not a problem, Barb.... no offense taken.

>>

>> Let's put it this way. I'm 61 years old, go to water aerobics several

>> times a week. I can walk 3 hours continuously without resting.

>>

>> I can do a full hour on an elliptical exercise machine with a heart rate

>> of 130 bpm. I use pin-select weight machines and with the light weight

>> settings I use of 30-50 lbs, I can do very high reps... as many as 50

>> without getting winded.

>>

>> I couldn't do that when I was 40.

>>

>> Yep! I really do feel great.

>>

>> Randy

>>

>>

>> > >

>> Can you honestly say that you feel great today taking all those meds?

>> >

>> > Sorry, you hit a nerve,

>> > Barb

>> >

>>

>>

>>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Well, I think I can understand the root cause of some of my problems.

A few years ago I was pre-diabetic, on the verge of metabolic syndrome and all

that entails. My fasting blood glucose was 110 then. My glucose was 90 on my

latest labs.

I was overweight, technically obese, and headed for multiple problems.

Well, I needed to lose weight and exercise more, but I couldn't exercise because

I was tired and had no energy.

If I were looking for a root cause of most of my problems, you have it there.

58 years old, sedentary, poor diet, lack of exercise. Fortunately I quit smoking

nearly a quarter century ago and never drank to excess.

Well there are lots of old Americans, and many of them are overweight and

approaching metabolic syndrome. Many become diabetic and get heart disease. If

you add to that testicles that just don't work anymore you have me.

I had a grandfather that was disabled by a stroke in his early 40's and my

father died at age 61 and 9 months of a heart attack. He was also diabetic and

a smoker. So I've got a genetic component working against me. Men in my family

are type " A " high achievers and typically destroy themselves with hard work.

It's a lie that hard work never killed anyone.

So, yeah, I've got a pretty good understanding of the causes of my problems.

I've come a long way in the past three years and if I keep it up it will be a

long time before I become diabetic, have a heart attack or stoke. Maybe I'll

be luck enough to live long enough to get cancer.

A few years ago, my physician, (not my current one) was the son of the small

town doctor who treated my father and attended him at his death. This was also

the doctor who oversaw my birth.

My father died in 1959. I'm still alive and doing well in 2010.

The big difference is western medicine and big pharma and the various tools they

have at their disposal today. They just weren't available in 1959.

As I said earlier, it will be decades before we know for sure how effective it

is to bombard us with drugs in hopes of producing " normal " labs. I'll be dead

by the time we know for sure.

Of course, in the long run, we're all dead. I don't think that is going to

change.

Randy Hoops

>

> Masking the symptoms merely provides temporary relief while masking the

> progression of the disease. There is good reason to understand the causes or

> symptoms, if that is possible.

[Guest guest]

Hope you're taking Thyroid!

Sendt fra min iPhone

Den 21. okt. 2010 kl. 04.46 skrev " k0cm " <Randy@...>:

Well, I think I can understand the root cause of some of my problems.

A few years ago I was pre-diabetic, on the verge of metabolic syndrome and all

that entails. My fasting blood glucose was 110 then. My glucose was 90 on my

latest labs.

I was overweight, technically obese, and headed for multiple problems.

Well, I needed to lose weight and exercise more, but I couldn't exercise because

I was tired and had no energy.

If I were looking for a root cause of most of my problems, you have it there.

58 years old, sedentary, poor diet, lack of exercise. Fortunately I quit smoking

nearly a quarter century ago and never drank to excess.

Well there are lots of old Americans, and many of them are overweight and

approaching metabolic syndrome. Many become diabetic and get heart disease. If

you add to that testicles that just don't work anymore you have me.

I had a grandfather that was disabled by a stroke in his early 40's and my

father died at age 61 and 9 months of a heart attack. He was also diabetic and a

smoker. So I've got a genetic component working against me. Men in my family are

type " A " high achievers and typically destroy themselves with hard work. It's a

lie that hard work never killed anyone.

So, yeah, I've got a pretty good understanding of the causes of my problems.

I've come a long way in the past three years and if I keep it up it will be a

long time before I become diabetic, have a heart attack or stoke. Maybe I'll be

luck enough to live long enough to get cancer.

A few years ago, my physician, (not my current one) was the son of the small

town doctor who treated my father and attended him at his death. This was also

the doctor who oversaw my birth.

My father died in 1959. I'm still alive and doing well in 2010.

The big difference is western medicine and big pharma and the various tools they

have at their disposal today. They just weren't available in 1959.

As I said earlier, it will be decades before we know for sure how effective it

is to bombard us with drugs in hopes of producing " normal " labs. I'll be dead by

the time we know for sure.

Of course, in the long run, we're all dead. I don't think that is going to

change.

Randy Hoops

>

> Masking the symptoms merely provides temporary relief while masking the

> progression of the disease. There is good reason to understand the causes or

> symptoms, if that is possible.

[Guest guest]

Nope.

>

> Hope you're taking Thyroid!

>

> Sendt fra min iPhone

>

[Guest guest]

Marita,

We have a few women posting here and they are a big help so don't hold back jump

right in.

That needle is used to shoot in the back side yet when I was getting them with

that size needle it still hurt. Don't do shots every two weeks this is old and

dose not keep one leveled. His levels will shoot why up 3 to 4 days after his

big shot only to fall to low by his next one. It is when levels fall lower we

feel bad. Dr.'s up on this found this out yrs ago. When men do shots every 2 to

3 weeks the shot is very big so most of it converts into Estraidol E2 this

undoes any good the shot was doing it will kill his sex life, give him brain

fog, he can have feelings of Anxiety even Panic Attacks, he will have sore and

hard nipples, feel hot and sweat a lot there are so many bad things about higher

levels of Estraidol in men I would be here all day listing them.

I even had BPH from it when I got it down my Prostate went back down.

Doing shots every 2 to 3 weeks can make his blood to thick and he would need to

give blood to keep it thin.

Doing shots every 2 to 3 weeks putts him on a roller coaster ride up after the

shot only to fall to low by the next one.

Most Dr.'s only know what Drug. Reps tell them men have been doing shot of

testosterone using smaller needles for yrs. And in the last 8 yrs a lot of them

do there shots subQ.

If you ask a Dr. about this and he does not treat a lot of men for low

Testosterone it is like asking a kid.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: Marita <mcdaniel@...>

> Subject: Re: Finding the cause?

>

> Date: Wednesday, October 20, 2010, 5:48 PM

> Hi Phil, and thank you for welcoming

> me. I was a little hesitant at first

> since I'm a woman and so far, not having any hormonal

> problems, at least not

> that I'm aware of.

>

> >> I need to ask you about his fibromyalgia is he on

> Statin Drugs.  I ask

> >> this because I was on them and started having bad

> pain in my lower back

> >> going into my hips and down my upper legs. 

> After a lot testing, MIR's on

> >> my back they tired to tell me I have fibromyalgia.

> <<

>

> No, his fibro *history* started when he fell on his back

> during an exercise

> in the Air Force when he was only 19. We didn't find out

> until a couple

> years or so ago that this accident apparently caused a

> hairline fracture

> somewhere in his thoracic area. That's when his back

> problems started, and

> he's gotten progressively worse over the years.

> His VA doctor wants him on statin drugs because his

> cholesterol is elevated,

> but so far he hasn't started. I've done too much research

> on the subject

> and, to be quite frank, I believe statin drugs are WAY over

> prescribed in

> this country, and only a small percentage of people with

> high cholesterol

> actually have the kind that absolutely need the drugs. The

> rest of the

> population would be better off trying to get high

> cholesterol under control

> by changing their diet and exercising. That is MY opinion,

> anyway....;-)

>

> >> This all started when I was put on Crestor a

> Statin Drug.  The more I

> >> told them my pain was from this the more carp I

> heard that this in not

> >> possible. <<

>

> Yeah, yeah, the usual. I'm so familiar with that kind of

> stuff, it's not

> funny. One time Mark was put on Cymbalta, and I did

> research on it right

> away, and questioned 2 doctors about the worst side effect,

> which is

> necrosis of the jaw bone. No, not to worry, that is really

> rare, I wouldn't

> worry about it. Well, about 2 years later, I noticed him

> rubbing his chin a

> lot and moving his lower jaw from side to side quite a bit.

> When asked, he

> told me that yes, his jaw was hurting him. When we told the

> VA doctor, she

> said to IMMEDIATELY stop the Cymbalta. I guess it was the

> first sign of that

> worst side effect. Thankfully it hasn't gotten worse, and

> it's been a couple

> years or so since he stopped taking it.

>

> >> Now that I can't stand up without help or walk

> unless I use a walker.  My

> >> Dr.'s took me off the Statin drugs and now they

> know all about this

> >> problem and how to treat it. <<

>

> NO KIDDING!!! I'm so sorry to hear that, Phil, and that is

> something I

> haven't heard of, yet. I thought, though, that once on a

> statin drug, that

> you can't ever go off?

>

> >> I am on 1200 mgs of CoQ10 supplements and starting

> to get better.

> http://www.spacedoc.net/muscle_pain_statins.htm 

> <<

>

> Oh, good, I'm glad that's helping you, and I will check

> that link out in a

> bit. I don't know if any of you are familiar with Dr.

> Mercola or not, but

> I've been reading his newsletter for a few years now, and

> he's written tons

> of warnings about statin drugs in the past, among many

> other drugs that the

> FDA approves way too easily, IMO.

>

> >> What size needle was he using to shoot

> Testosterone in to his thighs. <<

>

> I just asked him, all he remembers is that they were 1 1/2 "

> long, and

> friggin' HUGE (his statement).

> The endo's office is sending a script to get the injections

> again, will let

> you know how big the needles are when we get them, and how

> Mark is handling

> them this time.

> He only had to give himself the injection every 2 weeks,

> which was nice.

>

> >> I told my Dr. about this and he let me do my shots

> every 3 days but not

> >> subQ.  I use a small 27g 1ml x 1/2 " lg.

> needle and shoot into my thigh.

> >> <<

>

> That is very interesting, and I will mention that to his

> new doctor,

> whomever that may be.

>

> >> One thing I have found in men with his and my

> problems is low levels of

> >> Cortisol the stress of all his health problems

> puts his Adrenals in over

> >> drive.  They over work do the stress of his

> health and how bad he feels.

> >> <<

>

> I have to dig out all the copies of his blood test results,

> I know that his

> cortisol has been tested before.

> Boy oh boy, you have given us a LOT to read and think

> about, Phil. We both

> REALLY appreciate that a BUNCH!!! I'm so glad I finally

> asked you guys for

> help, now we have some really good info to wade through,

> and make some

> important decisions.

>

> >> I have a friend I met on the web he is now a Dr.'s

> Aid working with Dr. O

> >> men drive out to see them he is up on all your

> husbands problems send him

> >> an Email talk to him. <<

>

> I will definitely do that, I can't thank you enough for all

> the info you

> have given us.

> I will post again to give you an update.

>

> Marita in Heron, MT

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Randy,

It is very important to know if your Primary or Secondary. I was told I am

Primary for 23 yrs read this link to my story to see how Dr.'s ruined my life

doing this.

http://forums.realthyroidhelp.com/viewtopic.php?f=5 & t=9239

I got sick after an auto accident where I hit my head into the roof of the car.

All I had was a goose egg.

To make this short the first 5 yrs. they told me I suffer from Major Depression,

then the meds for this gave me bladder infections so I was sent to see a Uro.

This Dr. told me he felt I was not depressed and my problem with bladder

infections was from the AD meds. He tested me for low testosterone my TT came

back at 120 with very low levels of LH and FSH.

But he got it wrong told me I am Primary this followed me from Dr. to Dr. You

see just treating me for low T I never felt 100% I was off work on sick leave

more then I was at work. This went on for 23 yrs.

Then I got my Dr. to let me add in some HCG to my TRT and after 15 shots of 500

IU's 3x's/wk. My labs for TT went from 600 to 1200 so I am not Primary but I am

Secondary we did an MRI to rule out a tumor I was clean. My Pituitary dose not

work from the head injury test such as an ACTH test showed this.

My new Dr. sent my copys of my labs out to be reviewed by an Pituitary expert he

sent a report back saying my labs over the last 23 yrs were screaming a

Pituitary problem.

To make this short I had a mess of labs showing things low normal like Cortisol,

Thyroid, Growth Hornmone, Iron levels and Aldosterone.

So now they treat all this and I feel better so when you say the treatment is

the same your wrong it's not the same and if a good Dr. knows you are secondary

he will look at your labs in different way.

To many Dr.s see your labs in range and tell you your fine this is not true if

you have a lot of labs in the low range there is a big problem.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: k0cm <Randy@...>

> Subject: Re: Finding the cause?

>

> Date: Wednesday, October 20, 2010, 7:41 PM

> I have a rather simplistic view on

> finding the cause of low testosterone.  Whether it is a

> pituitary problem or testicular problem or something else,

> the treatment is the same.

>

> Does it really matter what the exact cause is?

>

> My internist does bloodwork and looks for things that are

> out of the normal range.  If there is something that

> can bring a particular component closer to normal, then I

> take that.

>

> My testosterone was 150 on a scale of 300-1000, so I get

> testosterone shots.  My cholesterol was high, so I get

> lipitor, my blood pressure was high so I get

> Benicar/HCT.  I have GERD, so I take omeprazole.

> I also take a baby asprin, multivitamin and fish oil

> capsule.

>

> Result:  my bloodwork and vital signs are all normal

> and we call that " healthy " .

>

> It will take a few decades before we discover whether bring

> all these parameters into the normal range really makes us

> healthy, but that's the best we can do now.

>

> Randy Hoops

>

>

>

> > What do the experts here think about this?

> > My biggest question is this: What do we need to do to

> find what is causing

> > the low testosterone?

> > Marita in Heron, MT

> >

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Just one thing if your on Statin Drugs to lower your Chol. levels take CoQ10

Uquinol trade name Q-kaneka Coenyzme 100 mgs/day to keep your Q10 levels up so

you don't end up with joint and muscle pain.

I read about this problem from Dr. Mercola Email news.

http://products.mercola.com/coq10-ubiquinol/?source=nl

But it was to late for men now I can't stand up or walk with out a walker.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: <gibcast@...>

> Subject: Re: Re: Finding the cause?

> " " < >

> Date: Wednesday, October 20, 2010, 8:16 PM

> High cholesterol is hypothyroidism.

> Low testosterone can also be hypo.

> My testo went up from 10 to 25 on T4-treatment. Range:

> 10-40.

> My poin is: Thyroid can correct everything alone.

>

>

>

> Sendt fra min iPhone

>

> Den 21. okt. 2010 kl. 01.41 skrev " k0cm " <Randy@...>:

>

> I have a rather simplistic view on finding the cause of low

> testosterone. Whether it is a pituitary problem or

> testicular problem or something else, the treatment is the

> same.

>

> Does it really matter what the exact cause is?

>

> My internist does bloodwork and looks for things that are

> out of the normal range. If there is something that can

> bring a particular component closer to normal, then I take

> that.

>

> My testosterone was 150 on a scale of 300-1000, so I get

> testosterone shots. My cholesterol was high, so I get

> lipitor, my blood pressure was high so I get Benicar/HCT. I

> have GERD, so I take omeprazole.

> I also take a baby asprin, multivitamin and fish oil

> capsule.

>

> Result: my bloodwork and vital signs are all normal and we

> call that " healthy " .

>

> It will take a few decades before we discover whether bring

> all these parameters into the normal range really makes us

> healthy, but that's the best we can do now.

>

> Randy Hoops

>

>

>

> > What do the experts here think about this?

> > My biggest question is this: What do we need to do to

> find what is causing

> > the low testosterone?

> > Marita in Heron, MT

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>      

>

>

[Guest guest]

Let me jump in here on this one post your labs for your Thyroid I can't tell you

how many people come to my Thyroid forum saying there Dr. told them there

Thyroid labs were normal. When they posted the there were not enough labs done

to show if there Thyroid is normal.

One quick check it to check your temps before getting out of bed in the morning

under your arm.

In this link it shows you how to do this it's not the law but dam close.

http://drbate.com/Ref/thyroid.html

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: k0cm <Randy@...>

> Subject: Re: Finding the cause?

>

> Date: Wednesday, October 20, 2010, 8:18 PM

> What is the thyroid labs are normal?

>

> Randy

>

>

> >

> > High cholesterol is hypothyroidism.

> > Low testosterone can also be hypo.

> > My testo went up from 10 to 25 on T4-treatment. Range:

> 10-40.

> > My poin is: Thyroid can correct everything alone.

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks Phil. I've heard you story several times, but never learned exactly how

your treatment changes. I know you say it is very important to know whether you

are primary or secondary.

You obviously take testosterone either way. What is different in your course of

treatment?

I hate to be so dense in understanding this, and I'm not trying to be obstinate,

but I still don't understand.

Randy

>

> Randy,

> So now they treat all this and I feel better so when you say the treatment is

the same your wrong it's not the same and if a good Dr. knows you are secondary

he will look at your labs in different way.

>

> Co-Moderator

> Phil

>

[Guest guest]

Randy that is great your albe to do this just a yr ago after Heart Bypass

surgery I was doing this not as good as your doing it. Now because of meds like

Statin Drugs for lower Chol. that I never had high I can't even walk with out

help.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: k0cm <Randy@...>

> Subject: Re: Finding the cause?

>

> Date: Wednesday, October 20, 2010, 9:45 PM

> Not a problem, Barb.... no offense

> taken.

>

> Let's put it this way.  I'm 61 years old, go to water

> aerobics several times a week.  I can walk 3 hours

> continuously without resting.

>

> I can do a full hour on an elliptical exercise machine with

> a heart rate of 130 bpm.  I use pin-select weight

> machines and with the light weight settings I use of 30-50

> lbs, I can do very high reps... as many as 50 without

> getting winded.

>

> I couldn't do that when I was 40.

>

> Yep!  I really do feel great.

>

> Randy

>

>

> > >

>   Can you honestly say that you feel great today

> taking all those meds? 

> >

> > Sorry, you hit a nerve,

> > Barb

> >

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

My Dr.'s would never treat my low normal cortisol, thyroid and Growth Hormones.

Now that my Dr. tell my BCBS I am Secondary they pay for things like Growth

Hormones and HCG plus I am on cortef HC meds and Thyroid meds and Florinef for

low Aldosterone levels I was walking around dehydrated for yrs and every time I

did a urine test for bladder infections I would be told to drink more water but

all that did was make me more Dehydrated because my Adrenals were dumping my

sodium. When you have Dr.'s looking at your labs and telling you your fine your

labs are in range your in trouble.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: k0cm <Randy@...>

> Subject: Re: Finding the cause?

>

> Date: Thursday, October 21, 2010, 11:47 AM

> Thanks Phil.   I've

> heard you story several times, but never learned exactly how

> your treatment changes.  I know you say it is very

> important to know whether you are primary or secondary.

>

> You obviously take testosterone either way.  What is

> different in your course of treatment?

>

> I hate to be so dense in understanding this, and I'm not

> trying to be obstinate, but I still don't understand.

>

> Randy

>

>

> >

> > Randy,

> > So now they treat all this and I feel better so when

> you say the treatment is the same your wrong it's not the

> same and if a good Dr. knows you are secondary he will look

> at your labs in different way.

> >

> > Co-Moderator

> > Phil

> >

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

>> Now that my Dr. tell my BCBS I am Secondary they pay for things like

>> Growth Hormones and HCG<<

-------------------------------

What does being Secondary mean, the low testosterone is secondary to another

cause? Sorry if I sound ignorant, but I am, the subject of hormones is

REALLY complicated to me, and I'm having a hard time understanding a lot of

what I read.

Marita