Re: Re: HORMA (Hormonal Regulators of Muscle and Metabolism in Aging) Trial

[Guest guest]

Still levels that high you going to have huge problems with Estradiol I know my

Dr. tries to keep my levels in the upper 900's and it's to high. Go by how you

feel. I stand by what I said about how they did them labs. Men don't get

levels that high doing labs after a shower before using the gels.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: cvictorg <cvgrashow@...>

> Subject: Re: HORMA (Hormonal Regulators of Muscle and

Metabolism in Aging) Trial

>

> Date: Saturday, January 29, 2011, 9:32 AM

> Look at the graph

>

>

http://biomedgerontology.oxfordjournals.org/content/66A/1/122/F1.expansion.html

>

> The box plots represent the distribution of changes from

> baseline to week 16 for testosterone participants who

> received 5 or 10 g/d doses and IGF-1 for participants who

> received rhGH at 0, 3, and 5 μg/kg/d. The solid line

> within each box represents the median and hatched line the

> mean of the distribution change. The upper and lower

> boundaries of the boxes represent the 75th and 25th

> percentiles of the distribution, respectively. The upper and

> lower whiskers represent the 90th and 10th percentiles,

> respectively. Dots above and below the 90th and 10th

> percentiles, respectively, are individual values outside

> this range.

>

>

>

> >

> > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21059836

> >

> > http://biomedgerontology.oxfordjournals.org/content/66A/1/122.full

> >

> > Testosterone Threshold Levels and Lean Tissue Mass

> Targets Needed to Enhance Skeletal Muscle Strength and

> Function: The HORMA Trial

> >

> > Increases in total testosterone of 1046 ng/dL (95%

> confidence interval = 1040–1051) and 898 ng/dL (95%

> confidence interval = 892–904) were necessary to achieve

> median increases in lean body mass of 1.5 kg and

> appendicular skeletal muscle mass of 0.8 kg, respectively,

> which were required to significantly enhance one-repetition

> maximum strength (≥30%). Co-treatment with rhGH

> lowered the testosterone levels (quantified using liquid

> chromatography–tandem mass spectrometry) necessary to

> reach these lean mass thresholds.

> >

> > These represent conservative estimates because they

> include men whose testosterone levels declined, as may occur

> during clinical treatment with testosterone, and as such

> delineate target testosterone levels needed to sufficiently

> enhance LBM and ASMM necessary to improve muscle strength

> and physical function.

> >

> > Our data may also help explain why some testosterone

> trials, which used relatively low fixed doses of

> testosterone and achieved small (if any) increments in

> testosterone levels, reported relatively modest LBM gains

> and little or no change in muscle strength or physical

> function. Our data highlight the need for dose titration to

> target testosterone levels in clinical trials of

> testosterone for anabolic applications.

> >

> > Question - If the levels in the study are correct

> doesn't that mean that we should be aiming for total

> testosterone levels of 1000-1100 ng/dL??

> >

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Well said wjj1234,

I am in the process of lowering my dose of Test C my Dr. feels I need to keep my

levels up because of my Stating Drug damage to my Joints and Muscles.

But the Estradiol levels are going so high I need a lot meds to keep them down.

High Estradol set of my Panic problems. I am all ready on pain pills in a lot

of pain don't need all this panic.

We have cut back and now I get by taking 12.5 mgs of Aromasin every 3 days.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: wjj1234 <wjj1234@...>

> Subject: Re: HORMA (Hormonal Regulators of Muscle and

Metabolism in Aging) Trial

>

> Date: Saturday, January 29, 2011, 3:58 PM

> This (1000+) would in most cases be

> considered pretty high in the normal range.  Most adult

> men naturally have somewhat less than that.  On TRT my

> level is around 500.  At age 53 I can do 60 pushups

> cold and I'm happy with that.  My point is that you

> don't have to be at 1000+ to be fit, or healthy, for that

> matter. The main problem I see in being that high is the

> impact that testosterone has on other hormones, mostly

> estrogen.  When I am over 800 I start having big

> problems with E2 and frankly, it simply isn't worth it and I

> don't need to be that high (800) in order to be healthy and

> fit.  If you feel good at 250 then you can be plenty

> fit if you are willing to work for it. W

>

>

> > > >

> > > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21059836

> > > >

> > > > http://biomedgerontology.oxfordjournals.org/content/66A/1/122.full

> > > >

> > > > Testosterone Threshold Levels and Lean

> Tissue Mass

> > > Targets Needed to Enhance Skeletal Muscle

> Strength and

> > > Function: The HORMA Trial

> > > >

> > > > Increases in total testosterone of 1046

> ng/dL (95%

> > > confidence interval = 1040†" 1051) and 898

> ng/dL (95%

> > > confidence interval = 892†" 904) were

> necessary to achieve

> > > median increases in lean body mass of 1.5 kg and

> > > appendicular skeletal muscle mass of 0.8 kg,

> respectively,

> > > which were required to significantly enhance

> one-repetition

> > > maximum strength (≥30%). Co-treatment with

> rhGH

> > > lowered the testosterone levels (quantified using

> liquid

> > > chromatography†" tandem mass spectrometry)

> necessary to

> > > reach these lean mass thresholds.

> > > >

> > > > These represent conservative estimates

> because they

> > > include men whose testosterone levels declined,

> as may occur

> > > during clinical treatment with testosterone, and

> as such

> > > delineate target testosterone levels needed to

> sufficiently

> > > enhance LBM and ASMM necessary to improve muscle

> strength

> > > and physical function.

> > > >

> > > > Our data may also help explain why some

> testosterone

> > > trials, which used relatively low fixed doses of

> > > testosterone and achieved small (if any)

> increments in

> > > testosterone levels, reported relatively modest

> LBM gains

> > > and little or no change in muscle strength or

> physical

> > > function. Our data highlight the need for dose

> titration to

> > > target testosterone levels in clinical trials of

> > > testosterone for anabolic applications.

> > > >

> > > > Question - If the levels in the study are

> correct

> > > doesn't that mean that we should be aiming for

> total

> > > testosterone levels of 1000-1100 ng/dL??

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ------------------------------------

> > >

> > >