Re: One more thyroid question

[Guest guest]

That is a very low dose I can't see this happening. If anything it will relax

you.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: marc200134470 <cfs38@...>

> Subject: One more thyroid question

>

> Date: Sunday, December 26, 2010, 1:08 PM

> As I said on my last thread, sometime

> next week I will be starting on a low 5mcg dose of T3.

>

> I have no clue yet whether it will be Cytomel,.....hope I'm

> right on that,......or something compounded since it went to

> a compounding pharmacy.

>

> Anyway, as usual, I have been doing some reading on folks

> that take T3.

> I seem to be seeing a lot of stuff about anxiety when

> people that have never taken any thyroid meds first start

> this stuff,....even at very low doses.

>

> Any of you folks know if this is true, or simply rubbish?

> Really hope I don't get to deal with something else right

> now, since I don't have anxiety issues to speak of

> currently.

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

If you have low ferritin or low cortisol, yes, you can have a bad reaction to

straight T3. You have neither condition, so I would not expect you to have

those problems.

Barb

>

> As I said on my last thread, sometime next week I will be starting on a low

5mcg dose of T3.

>

> I have no clue yet whether it will be Cytomel,.....hope I'm right on

that,......or something compounded since it went to a compounding pharmacy.

>

> Anyway, as usual, I have been doing some reading on folks that take T3.

> I seem to be seeing a lot of stuff about anxiety when people that have never

taken any thyroid meds first start this stuff,....even at very low doses.

>

> Any of you folks know if this is true, or simply rubbish?

> Really hope I don't get to deal with something else right now, since I don't

have anxiety issues to speak of currently.

>

[Guest guest]

No,.....I certainly don't have those issues!

Sometimes I think I read too much.

My ferritin is still about the same as in August. I forgot to mention that the

new doc tested it again as part of his thyroid panel. He said I should give some

blood. I am a little over 500 still.

So much of this seems to be related to my liver, but all of my docs say there is

nothing wrong there. All of my liver function tests are perfectly fine, and have

always been.

I keep thinking I fried my liver from drinking beer, but they say it's fine. New

doc is very glad to hear that I quit, and says that while it appears I have no

damage that it might take months and months for it to fully recover from the

abuse.

I will chime in when I get my T3 med next week.

>

> If you have low ferritin or low cortisol, yes, you can have a bad reaction to

straight T3. You have neither condition, so I would not expect you to have

those problems.

>

> Barb

[Guest guest]

Did you drink enough water days before your labs if you were Dehydrated your

blood labs will look higher then they are.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: marc200134470 <cfs38@...>

> Subject: Re: One more thyroid question

>

> Date: Sunday, December 26, 2010, 2:25 PM

>

>

> No,.....I certainly don't have those issues!

> Sometimes I think I read too much.

>

> My ferritin is still about the same as in August. I forgot

> to mention that the new doc tested it again as part of his

> thyroid panel. He said I should give some blood. I am a

> little over 500 still.

>

> So much of this seems to be related to my liver, but all of

> my docs say there is nothing wrong there. All of my liver

> function tests are perfectly fine, and have always been.

>

> I keep thinking I fried my liver from drinking beer, but

> they say it's fine. New doc is very glad to hear that I

> quit, and says that while it appears I have no damage that

> it might take months and months for it to fully recover from

> the abuse.

>

> I will chime in when I get my T3 med next week.

>

>

> >

> > If you have low ferritin or low cortisol, yes, you can

> have a bad reaction to straight T3.  You have neither

> condition, so I would not expect you to have those

> problems.

> >

> > Barb

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Marc, sounds like it may be sustained release T3 you will be getting---always

best to know adrenal status prior to starting thyroid meds,in fact the thyroid

med patient literature specifically states this--part of the symptoms of low

adrenal function which can be noted during thyroid med initiation can be heart

pounding/thudding, anxiety....EL

>

> As I said on my last thread, sometime next week I will be starting on a low

5mcg dose of T3.

>

> I have no clue yet whether it will be Cytomel,.....hope I'm right on

that,......or something compounded since it went to a compounding pharmacy.

>

> Anyway, as usual, I have been doing some reading on folks that take T3.

> I seem to be seeing a lot of stuff about anxiety when people that have never

taken any thyroid meds first start this stuff,....even at very low doses.

>

> Any of you folks know if this is true, or simply rubbish?

> Really hope I don't get to deal with something else right now, since I don't

have anxiety issues to speak of currently.

>

[Guest guest]

Phil,......I always drink a lot of water, so the odds of me being dehydrated are

slim.

The high ferritin is something I have not received an answer to.

Was never tested for it in my life until August of this year,.....2 times to

date.

What the heck causes ones ferritin to be that high?

My iron levels were about upper 1/3 of test range, but normal.

>

> Did you drink enough water days before your labs if you were Dehydrated your

blood labs will look higher then they are.

> Co-Moderator

> Phil

[Guest guest]

All I know is my cortisol is quite high AM and PM, so it doesn't sound to me

like I have low adrenal function.

If I am understanding what his theory is correctly,.....he thinks my slightly

low thyroid is causing the high cortisol, or at least partly.

Have to admit I am kind of confused at this point.

One thing I didn't tell here yet was the fact I had a cardiac cath done on

12/15.

The idiots injected me with a dose of Medrol because I refused the Benadryl. I

guess they use these 2 things to avoid an allergic reaction to the iodine based

contrast.

Test turned out fine,.....simply a false positive on my last stress test, but

man did I feel bad for several days.

I guess that corticosteroid ramped my cortisol even higher. It took my BP up, as

well as sent my pulse pounding.

>

> Marc, sounds like it may be sustained release T3 you will be getting---always

best to know adrenal status prior to starting thyroid meds,in fact the thyroid

med patient literature specifically states this--part of the symptoms of low

adrenal function which can be noted during thyroid med initiation can be heart

pounding/thudding, anxiety....EL

>

[Guest guest]

I second what Barb said. My doc added T3 and it was horrible for me. Had to

quit.

I have high ferritin and low cortisol.

> >

> > As I said on my last thread, sometime next week I will be starting on a low

5mcg dose of T3.

> >

> > I have no clue yet whether it will be Cytomel,.....hope I'm right on

that,......or something compounded since it went to a compounding pharmacy.

> >

> > Anyway, as usual, I have been doing some reading on folks that take T3.

> > I seem to be seeing a lot of stuff about anxiety when people that have never

taken any thyroid meds first start this stuff,....even at very low doses.

> >

> > Any of you folks know if this is true, or simply rubbish?

> > Really hope I don't get to deal with something else right now, since I don't

have anxiety issues to speak of currently.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Marc,

I don't think the Medrol did this did you know in times of stress like a car

crash or loss of a loved one your body can make over 600 mgs of cortisol to help

your body deal with this.

I feel is was the iodine based contrast that made you sick. I am on HC meds and

when I would go into Adrenal Crisis from over doing it working out side in the

heat. In the ER they would give me a big shot of Medrol to bring me back. Even

when I had heart surgery and things were they had to put me under they would

give me a big shot of Medrol.

After them shots I was on top of the world for the rest of that day.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: marc200134470 <cfs38@...>

> Subject: Re: One more thyroid question

>

> Date: Monday, December 27, 2010, 11:15 AM

> All I know is my cortisol is quite

> high AM and PM, so it doesn't sound to me like I have low

> adrenal function.

>

> If I am understanding what his theory is correctly,.....he

> thinks my slightly low thyroid is causing the high cortisol,

> or at least partly.

> Have to admit I am kind of confused at this point.

>

> One thing I didn't tell her yet was the fact I had a

> cardiac cath done on 12/15.

> The idiots injected me with a dose of Medrol because I

> refused the Benadryl. I guess they use these 2 things to

> avoid an allergic reaction to the iodine based contrast.

>

> Test turned out fine,.....simply a false positive on my

> last stress test, but man did I feel bad for several days.

> I guess that corticosteroid ramped my cortisol even higher.

> It took my BP up, as well as sent my pulse pounding.

>

>

> >

> > Marc, sounds like it may be sustained release T3 you

> will be getting---always best to know adrenal status prior

> to starting thyroid meds,in fact the thyroid med patient

> literature specifically states this--part of the symptoms of

> low adrenal function which can be noted during thyroid med

> initiation can be heart pounding/thudding, anxiety....EL

> >

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

We have a member here very good on this he suffers from to much Iron. He made

his home at Dr. 's but you can go there find his nick and send him a PM

message his is up on this and can tell you why this can happen.

His nick is Hemochromatosis you would need to join Dr. 's forum to send him

a PM.

http://www.musclechatroom.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15946

I don't remember what his nick is here.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: marc200134470 <cfs38@...>

> Subject: Re: One more thyroid question

>

> Date: Monday, December 27, 2010, 11:21 AM

> Phil,......I always drink a lot of

> water, so the odds of me being dehydrated are slim.

>

> The high ferritin is something I have not received an

> answer to.

> Was never tested for it in my life until August of this

> year,.....2 times to date.

>

> What the heck causes ones ferritin to be that high?

> My iron levels were about upper 1/3 of test range, but

> normal.

>

>

> >

> > Did you drink enough water days before your labs if

> you were Dehydrated your blood labs will look higher then

> they are.

> > Co-Moderator

> > Phil

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Phil,.....I am getting really confused now.

I realize that a lot of you folks here have LOW cortisol, and take drugs like HC

for 'adrenal fatigue' which I can understand how it would make you feel better

under those circumstances.

I have very HIGH natural Cortisol levels as shown in my last test results.

This new doc,.....Dr. Hall said that Medrol for ME, was the worst thing they

could have done. Of course I did not know I had high cortisol when I had the

cath done. I got the results of Hall's tests on 12/23.

Either some of you are not understanding that I do NOT suffer from low cortisol,

or I have no idea what I am talking about anymore. If that is the case, then I

have even less confidence in my new doc, as he said that Medrol was not

appropriate for me.

Also stress was not an issue,......this is not my first rodeo with a heart cath.

I had one done in early 2006.

Same thing, false positive from a nuclear stress test. My cardiologist is very

pro-active on testing due to my family history of heart problems.

I told the idiots at the cath lab that I did not have an iodine allergy, and

that I wanted NOTHING like before. One of the nurses screwed up plain and

simple. They used versed and fentanyl via IV and couldn't even make me sleepy. I

talked through the whole thing, and remember every word.

If I ever need another one done, I will not take anything except for a local in

the leg at the incision site.

>

> Marc,

>

> I don't think the Medrol did this did you know in times of stress like a car

crash or loss of a loved one your body can make over 600 mgs of cortisol to help

your body deal with this.

>

> I feel is was the iodine based contrast that made you sick. I am on HC meds

and when I would go into Adrenal Crisis from over doing it working out side in

the heat. In the ER they would give me a big shot of Medrol to bring me back.

Even when I had heart surgery and things were they had to put me under they

would give me a big shot of Medrol.

>

> After them shots I was on top of the world for the rest of that day.

>

> Co-Moderator

> Phil

[Guest guest]

Well,.....I think I will just skip the T3 med for now.

I have high ferritin, AND high cortisol, but I do NOT need more grief added into

my life at this moment from taking chances.

Phil says it will relax me,.....others say the opposite.

I think I am learning that all of this crap is hit and miss per se.

Sounds like an ever increasing amount of drugs to make up for what this one did,

etc.

I am thinking I will simply try to get my gut functioning correctly again, and

take a small amount of Arimidex along with my supplements for awhile.

Who knows,....maybe the gut results are all voodoo as well?

Cipro, and then Diflucan for something I have to take a docs word for from a

test I have no idea that is reliable.

It's not like I eat garbage, so I don't know how I could have a bacterial

infection to begin with. I eat quite healthy actually.

A bit of a rant here on my part,.......sorry. I am just sick of all this medical

stuff this year, and don't know what I should really do.

>

> I second what Barb said. My doc added T3 and it was horrible for me. Had to

quit.

> I have high ferritin and low cortisol.

>

[Guest guest]

I think the gut is under rated in our quest to answer our health questions...

LOL! Google *GAPS* diet and consider Paleo---get rid of gluten etc...I think

those of us with long term hormone issues / immune issues are way ahead of

*medicine* in determining that food and our environment takes a huge toll on our

body's ability to heal itself...the gut is where numerous important

neurotransmitters are produced and where a good portion of thyroid hormone

conversions take place..look at optimizing enzyme activity and cleaning up the

gut with probiotics etc as needed...and maybe give blood to reduce your iron

load---EL

> >

> > I second what Barb said. My doc added T3 and it was horrible for me. Had

to quit.

> > I have high ferritin and low cortisol.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I am sorry for the confueshion here is a copy of your 4x's / day Cortisol test.

===================================================

My 4X a day Cortisol was crazy bad!

> AM - 37 (13-24nM)

> Noon - 13 (5-10nM)

> Late Afternoon - 6 (3-8nM) I did this about 5PM

> Evening - 20 (1-4nM) Did this about 11PM

===================================================

Your levels are high meaning your Adrenals are working hard this is the first

stage of Adrenal Fatigue I don't like to call it AF and most Dr.'s understand

this being called Adrenal Insufficiency.

High levels of Cortisol can mean one has Cushing I am not sure you have this.

http://www.cushings-help.com/cushing-causes.htm

===================================================

What Causes Cushing's Syndrome?

Cushing's syndrome occurs when the body's tissues are exposed to excessive

levels of cortisol for long periods of time. Many people suffer the symptoms of

Cushing's syndrome because they take glucocorticoid hormones such as prednisone

for asthma, rheumatoid arthritis, lupus or other inflammatory diseases.

Others develop Cushing's syndrome because of overproduction of cortisol by the

body. Normally, the production of cortisol follows a precise chain of events.

First, the hypothalamus, a part of the brain which is about the size of a small

sugar cube, sends corticotropin releasing hormone (CRH) to the pituitary gland.

CRH causes the pituitary to secrete ACTH (adrenocorticotropin), a hormone that

stimulates the adrenal glands. When the adrenals, which are located just above

the kidneys, receive the ACTH, they respond by releasing cortisol into the

bloodstream.

Cortisol performs vital tasks in the body. It helps maintain blood pressure and

cardiovascular function, reduces the immune system's inflammatory response,

balances the effects of insulin in breaking down sugar for energy, and regulates

the metabolism of proteins, carbohydrates, and fats. One of cortisol's most

important jobs is to help the body respond to stress. For this reason, women in

their last 3 months of pregnancy and highly trained athletes normally have high

levels of the hormone. People suffering from depression, alcoholism,

malnutrition and panic disorders also have increased cortisol levels.

When the amount of cortisol in the blood is adequate, the hypothalamus and

pituitary release less CRH and ACTH. This ensures that the amount of cortisol

released by the adrenal glands is precisely balanced to meet the body's daily

needs. However, if something goes wrong with the adrenals or their regulating

switches in the pituitary gland or the hypothalamus, cortisol production can go

awry.

Pituitary Adenoma

Pituitary adenomas cause most cases of Cushing's syndrome. They are benign, or

non-cancerous, tumors of the pituitary gland which secrete increased amounts of

ACTH. Most patients have a single adenoma. This form of the syndrome, known as

" Cushing's disease, " affects women five times more frequently than men.

Ectopic ACTH Syndrome

Some benign or malignant (cancerous) tumors that arise outside the pituitary can

produce ACTH. This condition is known as ectopic ACTH syndrome. Lung tumors

cause over 50 percent of these cases. Men are affected 3 times more frequently

than women. The most common forms of ACTH-producing tumors are oat cell, or

small cell lung cancer, which accounts for about 25 percent of all lung cancer

cases, and carcinoid tumors. Other less common types of tumors that can produce

ACTH are thymomas, pancreatic islet cell tumors, and medullary carcinomas of the

thyroid.

Adrenal Tumors

Sometimes, an abnormality of the adrenal glands, most often an adrenal tumor,

causes Cushing's syndrome. The average age of onset is about 40 years. Most of

these cases involve non-cancerous tumors of adrenal tissue, called adrenal

adenomas, which release excess cortisol into the blood.

Adrenocortical carcinomas, or adrenal cancers, are the least common cause of

Cushing's syndrome. Cancer cells secrete excess levels of several adrenal

cortical hormones, including cortisol and adrenal androgens. Adrenocortical

carcinomas usually cause very high hormone levels and rapid development of

symptoms.

Familial Cushing's Syndrome

Most cases of Cushing's syndrome are not inherited. Rarely, however, some

individuals have special causes of Cushing's syndrome due to an inherited

tendency to develop tumors of one or more endocrine glands.

In Primary Pigmented Micronodular Adrenal Disease, children or young adults

develop small cortisol-producing tumors of the adrenal glands.

In Multiple Endocrine Neoplasia Type I (MEN I), hormone secreting tumors of the

parathyroid glands, pancreas and pituitary occur. Cushing's syndrome in MEN I

may be due to pituitary, ectopic or adrenal tumors.

----------------------------------------------------

The following is about Adrenal Fatigue when most Dr.'s do labs to test Cortisol

they are looking for very high levels called Cushing's or very low levels called

's disease. They don't look for Adrenal Fatigue and going by your labs

this is what you have but your in the first stages of this.

In this link it shows you Saliva labs the first stage opens in the link and all

accross the day the levels are high. As you click on the bottom of each link it

will show you the next stage and as you got through them in the last stages ones

levels end up very low. And yes your Dr. is right Medrol is not for you but

would not make you feel the way you did.

http://www.chronicfatigue.org/ASI%201%20.html

The symptoms of adrenal fatigue are similar to Cushing's.

Symptoms of adrenal fatigue:

Morning fatigue -- You don't really seem to " wake up " until 10 a.m., even if

you've been awake since 7 a.m.

Afternoon " low " (feelings of sleepiness or clouded thinking) from 2 to 4 p.m.

Burst of energy at 6 p.m. -- You finally feel better from your afternoon lull.

Sleepiness at 9 to 10 p.m. -- However, you resist going to sleep.

" Second wind " at 11 p.m. that lasts until about 1 a.m., when you finally go to

sleep.

Cravings for foods high in salt and fat

Increased PMS or menopausal symptoms

Mild depression

Lack of energy Decreased ability to handle stress

Muscular weakness

Increased allergies

Lightheadedness when getting up from a sitting or laying down position

Decreased sex drive

Frequent sighing

Inability to handle foods high in potassium or carbohydrates unless they're

combined with fats and protein

This Topic on the Message Boards

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From:

http://www.medical-library.net/sites/general_discussion_of_adrenal_fatigue.html

General Discussion of Adrenal Fatigue

by Ron Kennedy, M.D., Santa , California

Life is one stress after another. Most people, not living on an isolated South

Pacific island, would agree with that statement. Stress, along with poor diet,

ingestion of substances unnatural to the human body (prescribed synthetic drugs,

unprescribed street drugs, tobacco, coffee, etc.) and lack of exercise accounts

for most diseases from which people die in this society.

Stress is not something new. It has been around for as long as we humans have

been around. A cold winter is stressful, even if you have a warm house and warm

clothes. A super-hot summer is stressful. All illnesses are stressful. Being

confronted by a lion (or your boss) is stressful. Financial worries, or any

worries for that matter, subject the body to stress. Taking a test is stressful.

Arguing with your mate is stressful. Simply feeling cheated is stressful.

The role of stress has been extensively documented in heart disease, cancer,

even automobile accidents. From time immemorial, stress has been a major killer

of human beings. It would, therefore, be strange if nature had not developed in

us an organ charged with the responsibility for responding to stress.

The name of these organs is the adrenal glands. Nature considers response to

stress to be so important that she has developed in us two of these organs, in

case one of them is damaged. They sit on top of the kidneys on each side. They

are shaped like your cupped hand held facing down, and they are just a bit

smaller than your hands.

The adrenal glands are functionally several glands existing anatomically as one,

one on each side that is. The innermost part is called the adrenal " medulla. "

This part makes the catecholamines: epinephrine and norepinephrine (also called

" adrenalin " and " noradrenalin " ). These hormones are elevated in response to

acute distress: overwhelming fear and/or anger. They supercharge the body for

vicious fighting or an all-out run for safety. They cause an immediate

outpouring of ATP, the molecule which stores energy in muscles. This makes you

extraordinarily strong for a short period of time.

The catecholamines are stressful in themselves, if they are released

inappropriately. Inappropriate release happens when you take an animal (like a

human being) and civilize it by prohibiting the expression of anger and fear.

Many people are stressed by not being able to express themselves. In these

cases, metabolism is shifted from aerobic to a combination of aerobic and

anaerobic, a method approximately eighteen times less efficient in energy

production.

After the initial rush of fight or flight energy, it is in the body's best

interest that the catecholamines simply go away. Unfortunately, as we grow older

catecholamines levels rise progressively and, at the same time, there is a

decrease in the levels of hormones which balance the catecholamines:

testosterone and hydrocortisone. This shift in hormones, as we age, subjects us

to a constant low-level stress.

Fortunately, there is more to the stress response than the adrenal medulla with

its catecholamines. Nature has invented the adrenal cortices as a mechanism for

dealing with chronic stress (stress lasting for more than a few minutes).

The adrenal cortex on each side fits over the adrenal medulla and is designed to

respond to all stresses which are not of the acute variety. They do this by

manufacturing steroid hormones (cortisone, hydrocortisone, testosterone,

estrogen, 17-hydroxy-ketosteroids, DHEA and DHEA sulfate, cholesterol,

pregnenolone, aldosterone, androstenedione, progesterone and a variety of

intermediary hormones). The adrenals are the major steroid factories of the

body.

The actions of most of these hormones are dealt with in other chapters. I want

to focus here on aldosterone, cortisone and hydrocortisone. Most of the hormones

made in the adrenal glands are made also at other locations in the body;

however, these three hormones are made only in the adrenal glands and are the

most important for the chronic stress response.

Aldosterone is the so-called " mineralocorticoid " and while you read of the

mineralocorticoids, aldosterone is the only one. Aldosterone works together with

the kidneys to regulate the balance of minerals in the body. The proper balance

of minerals is critically important in the healthy stress response.

Cortisone and hydrocortisone are the major " glucocorticoids. " They help regulate

the level of glucose in the body through a process known as " gluconeogenesis. "

This word means, literally, " glucose new creation " and this is accomplished by

the conversion of protein to glucose.

This physiology is especially important for the immune system and, in the

presence of weak adrenals, the immune system is seriously impaired. This opens

the way for a variety of bizarre infections, which could never get a foothold in

the body in the absence of compromised adrenal glands. Anyone who is especially

susceptible to infections probably has weakened adrenals, thyroid gland, or both

— therefore, a weakened immune system.

The incidence of autoimmune disease also goes up in the presence of weak

adrenals. It may be that the adrenal glands regulate the immune system in such a

way that autoimmune disease is not allowed to develop. When the adrenals become

fatigued, this regulation may be relaxed and the immune system allowed to attack

certain cells of the body as if they were foreign invaders. At any rate, it is

well-known that certain hormones of the adrenal gland are useful in the

treatment of autoimmune diseases such as rheumatoid arthritis, lupus and

scleroderma.

In a normal condition, the adrenal glands are loaded with aldosterone, cortisone

and hydrocortisone; so when there is stress and more energy is needed, these

hormones are released, the energy is released, the problem is handled, and we

return to a relaxed condition.

However, the adrenal glands are made for just so much stress. If this level of

stress is exceeded, the adrenals respond as well as they can — they make all

the aldosterone, cortisone and hydrocortisone which they can make, release it,

make some more, release it and so on. Finally, they become exhausted, and you

have to take a few days off work — you just " cannot take it any more. " You

recover after a few days' rest, and you are good to go again, but then the cycle

repeats itself.

After a few months or years of chronic stress the adrenal glands become weak.

Even after a rest they are unable to respond to stress in a normal manner. The

most common clinical manifestation of this condition is chronic fatigue, a

condition which is increasing in our society at an alarming rate.

Other signs of weak adrenal function are overeating and weight gain, also

conditions rife in our society. When the adrenals are completely nonfunctional,

the result is weight loss, excessive loss of salt from the kidneys and

abnormally low blood pressure. This condition is most commonly seen in females.

A tall, thin (for some reason blond) woman with low blood pressure is suffering

from 's Disease (adrenal failure) until proven otherwise.

Medical thinking has polarized on the subject of adrenal function, so that, in

the minds of most doctors, a person is either in a normal condition or has

's Disease (complete adrenal failure) with no possibility for middle

ground. This polarization came about in the early days of treatment with adrenal

steroids, the 1950s, when cortisone and hydrocortisone became available. Doctors

did not know the proper dosages, guessed too high, got serious side effects and

became phobic about the use of adrenal steroids.

To allay their fears of disaster, they created a kind of myth that patients were

only allowed to have complete failure of the adrenals or nothing at all. If this

were the case, and a person shows up with complete failure of the adrenals

('s Disease), naturally the only thing to do would be to treat with

adrenal steroids. If failure is not complete, the patient is defined as " normal "

and not treatable.

In this manner, the fear of being sued for inducing the side effects associated

with abnormally large doses of, for example, hydrocortisone is taken away by the

fact that no one receives this therapy except the patient who has complete

adrenal failure. In that strange world, it is is better to have complete adrenal

failure than to have partial adrenal failure — because in that case a person

at least receives treatment.

It seems far more likely to me, and to many other authors in progressive

medicine (not to mention every other health discipline), that there is a middle

ground called adrenal fatigue. Total adrenal failure to function ('s

Disease) probably is a condition having something to do with incomplete

development of the adrenal glands during the embryonic stage of life, or

destruction of the adrenal glands by a disease process, for example,

tuberculosis.

The diagnosis of adrenal fatigue is made through an adrenal panel (measurement

of the level of a variety of adrenal hormones), although, just as with thyroid

dysfunction, " normal " levels may be insufficient for the stress to which that

person is subjected. Resting (nonstress) levels bear little relationship to the

adrenal glands' ability to increase production to counter the effects of stress.

The diagnosis can be made with an ACTH challenge test. ACTH (adrenal

corticotrophic hormone) is the pituitary hormone which commands the adrenal

cortex to produce hormones. By giving a dose of ACTH, we expect to see a

doubling of adrenal hormone output, at least. If this does not happen, adrenal

fatigue is probable. In extreme adrenal fatigue, the levels actually fall,

demonstrating the " whipped horse " phenomenon.

A person who becomes exhausted after stress, and remains exhausted, should be

considered adrenal fatigued, until proven otherwise. The diagnosis can be

suspected when the patient reports that he is exhausted for days after vigorous

exercise. A person who used to run three miles, four times each week, who can no

longer tolerate running one mile without being out of commission for days to

weeks, is highly suspect of having fatigued adrenal glands. From here I suggest

you go to Treatment of Adrenal Fatigue and 's Disease.

Sources

Jeffries W McK The present status of ACTH, cortisone, and related steroids in

clinical medicine N Engl J Med 253:441-446;1955.

Thorn GW, Forsham PHM Metabolic changes in man following adrenal and pituitary

hormone administration Recent Progress in Hormone Research, Vol. IV New York

Acad. Pr. 1949:229-288.

Levitt MF, Bader ME Effect of cortisone and ACTH on fluid and electrolyte

distribution in man Am J Med 11:715-723;1951.

Jeffries W McK Low dosage corticoid therapy Arch Intern Med 119:265-278;1967.

Shuster S, IA Pituitary and adrenal function during administration of

small doses of corticosteroids Lancet 2:674-678;1961.

Selye H The general adaptation syndrome and diseases of adaptation J Clin

Endocrinol Metab 6:117-230;1946.

Jeffries W McK Safe Uses of Cortisone C Publisher;1981

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: marc200134470 <cfs38@...>

> Subject: Re: One more thyroid question

>

> Date: Monday, December 27, 2010, 1:26 PM

>

>

> Phil,.....I am getting really confused now.

> I realize that a lot of you folks here have LOW cortisol,

> and take drugs like HC for 'adrenal fatigue' which I can

> understand how it would make you feel better under those

> circumstances.

>

> I have very HIGH natural Cortisol levels as shown in my

> last test results.

>

> This new doc,.....Dr. Hall said that Medrol for ME, was the

> worst thing they could have done. Of course I did not know I

> had high cortisol when I had the cath done. I got the

> results of Hall's tests on 12/23.

>

> Either some of you are not understanding that I do NOT

> suffer from low cortisol, or I have no idea what I am

> talking about anymore. If that is the case, then I have even

> less confidence in my new doc, as he said that Medrol was

> not appropriate for me.

>

> Also stress was not an issue,......this is not my first

> rodeo with a heart cath. I had one done in early 2006.

> Same thing, false positive from a nuclear stress test. My

> cardiologist is very pro-active on testing due to my family

> history of heart problems.

>

> I told the idiots at the cath lab that I did not have an

> iodine allergy, and that I wanted NOTHING like before. One

> of the nurses screwed up plain and simple. They used versed

> and fentanyl via IV and couldn't even make me sleepy. I

> talked through the whole thing, and remember every word.

>

> If I ever need another one done, I will not take anything

> except for a local in the leg at the incision site.

>

>

> >

> > Marc,

> >

> > I don't think the Medrol did this did you know in

> times of stress like a car crash or loss of a loved one your

> body can make over 600 mgs of cortisol to help your body

> deal with this.

> >

> > I feel is was the iodine based contrast that made you

> sick.  I am on HC meds and when I would go into Adrenal

> Crisis from over doing it working out side in the

> heat.  In the ER they would give me a big shot of

> Medrol to bring me back.  Even when I had heart surgery

> and things were they had to put me under they would give me

> a big shot of Medrol. 

> >

> > After them shots I was on top of the world for the

> rest of that day.

> >

> > Co-Moderator

> > Phil

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Very good info El Hardasnails and the Dr. he works for Overbeck check

this out first in there new people they see.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: mbmom123 <lathe30248@...>

> Subject: Re: One more thyroid question

>

> Date: Tuesday, December 28, 2010, 7:28 AM

> I think the gut is under rated in our

> quest to answer our health questions... LOL! Google *GAPS*

> diet and consider Paleo---get rid of gluten etc...I think

> those of us with long term hormone issues / immune issues

> are way ahead of *medicine* in determining that food and our

> environment takes a huge toll on our body's ability to heal

> itself...the gut is where numerous important

> neurotransmitters are produced and where a good portion of

> thyroid hormone conversions take place..look at optimizing

> enzyme activity and cleaning up the gut with probiotics etc

> as needed...and maybe give blood to reduce your iron

> load---EL

>

>

> > >

> > > I second what Barb said.  My doc added T3

> and it was horrible for me.  Had to quit.

> > > I have high ferritin and low cortisol.

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Phil,......sorry if I came off as being testy. I am just getting so confused at

this point.

My very first AM cortisol blood test was done in 2004 and I was at 21.

My last blood based one was 23. This saliva one was way higher than that.

Wonder which is more accurate, blood or saliva?

For whatever reason, my doc said that medrol simply increased my cortisol levels

more and was the reason I felt so lousy for a couple of days. I also have read

several places that medrol does cause increased blood pressure and pulse rate in

many people.

My Cardiologist has long suspected that high cortisol lies at the bottom of my

hypertension, and my occasional sinus tach.

I get what you are saying about stages, but mine seem to be taking a very long

time to burn out per se. Regardless of what happens in the future concerning

real adrenal fatigue,......I do not have it now. The doc laughed when I

mentioned adrenal fatigue. He said that was the last of my worries at this

point.

Mine seems to be stuck in overdrive for some reason.

I will try to say once more what this doctor seems to think is the cause. He

says that I am low thyroid,.......my adrenals are trying to compensate for that.

Due to that compensatory action, my adrenals are in over-drive causing the high

cortisol levels shown in my test.

He assumes that by adjusting my thyroid function slowly, that my adrenals should

quit compensating, and my cortisol levels should return to a more normal

pattern.

I am not a doctor,......if what he has told me is not possible, then he is a

quack plain and simple. I would appreciate being told that BTW. I talked to the

compounding lab here yesterday also,....my scrips will be ready this afternoon,

and my insurance covers them. They said that my doc is one of the best ones in

this area for anything hormone related. Of course he probably sends a lot of

business their way, so who knows.

If you knew the number of tests and doctors visits that I have had this year

while trying to keep up with work, and everything else, it's no wonder my

cortisol is high. I have been feeling like crap for this entire year basically,

and this is all new to me. Prior to 2010 I basically felt fine and simply had to

watch my hypertension along with some testing due to family history.

I am familiar with Cushing's disease as my mothers old pooch has it.

Doc says I do not have Cushing's or an adrenal tumor. He claims those two cause

more of a high flat line cortisol level. Mine is 'TRYING' to follow the pattern

except for the PM reading.

I do not have most of the symptoms that you listed for adrenal issues.

A couple,.....sure. I think everybody has one or two symptoms of almost every

condition that exists.

Sorry for the long post also. I am just frustrated and tired from this whole

year. I thought the meds I had been prescribed might help me a lot, but now I am

almost afraid to take the T3 med from the differing opinions.

All of this also has me wondering about this doctor now as well.

Thanks as usual for all of the input though.

[Guest guest]

Marc not a problem all I am trying to do is give you all the info about this so

you know about it the more you learn the better off you are. I feel your Dr. is

spot on in what he is doing never said other wise. Yes low thyroid in some

people can cause higher levels of Cortisol and yes I feel blood labs are the

best we do 4x's / day Saliva testing to see now the rhythm looks but Saliva can

be off due to that was in your mouth and the shape of your gums. Still it can

shot you what your rhythm is it is very had to do blood Labs 4 x's / day.

I would not get upset as to how high or low the saliva levels are what I look

for is one should be high in the morning going down lower by bedtime your not

doing this.

Fixing your Thyroid might bring down your Cortisol levels as long as there are

not other hormone problems low testosterone can make levels go up. And

infection this can be just a small one in a tooth can drive up Cortisol levels.

I feel your in great hands with this Dr. stop worrying all this will do is keep

your Cortisol levels up.

And keep posting until your mind is at ease.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: marc200134470 <cfs38@...>

> Subject: Re: One more thyroid question

>

> Date: Tuesday, December 28, 2010, 12:16 PM

>

>

> Phil,......sorry if I came off as being testy. I am just

> getting so confused at this point.

>

> My very first AM cortisol blood test was done in 2004 and I

> was at 21.

> My last blood based one was 23. This saliva one was way

> higher than that.

>

> Wonder which is more accurate, blood or saliva?

>

> For whatever reason, my doc said that medrol simply

> increased my cortisol levels more and was the reason I felt

> so lousy for a couple of days. I also have read several

> places that medrol does cause increased blood pressure and

> pulse rate in many people.

>

> My Cardiologist has long suspected that high cortisol lies

> at the bottom of my hypertension, and my occasional sinus

> tach.

> I get what you are saying about stages, but mine seem to be

> taking a very long time to burn out per se. Regardless of

> what happens in the future concerning real adrenal

> fatigue,......I do not have it now. The doc laughed when I

> mentioned adrenal fatigue. He said that was the last of my

> worries at this point.

>

> Mine seems to be stuck in overdrive for some reason.

> I will try to say once more what this doctor seems to think

> is the cause. He says that I am low thyroid,.......my

> adrenals are trying to compensate for that. Due to that

> compensatory action, my adrenals are in over-drive causing

> the high cortisol levels shown in my test.

> He assumes that by adjusting my thyroid function slowly,

> that my adrenals should quit compensating, and my cortisol

> levels should return to a more normal pattern.

>

> I am not a doctor,......if what he has told me is not

> possible, then he is a quack plain and simple. I would

> appreciate being told that BTW. I talked to the compounding

> lab here yesterday also,....my scrips will be ready this

> afternoon, and my insurance covers them. They said that my

> doc is one of the best ones in this area for anything

> hormone related. Of course he probably sends a lot of

> business their way, so who knows.

>

> If you knew the number of tests and doctors visits that I

> have had this year while trying to keep up with work, and

> everything else, it's no wonder my cortisol is high. I have

> been feeling like crap for this entire year basically, and

> this is all new to me. Prior to 2010 I basically felt fine

> and simply had to watch my hypertension along with some

> testing due to family history.

>

> I am familiar with Cushing's disease as my mothers old

> pooch has it.

> Doc says I do not have Cushing's or an adrenal tumor. He

> claims those two cause more of a high flat line cortisol

> level. Mine is 'TRYING' to follow the pattern except for the

> PM reading.

> I do not have most of the symptoms that you listed for

> adrenal issues.

> A couple,.....sure. I think everybody has one or two

> symptoms of almost every condition that exists.

>

> Sorry for the long post also. I am just frustrated and

> tired from this whole year. I thought the meds I had been

> prescribed might help me a lot, but now I am almost afraid

> to take the T3 med from the differing opinions.

> All of this also has me wondering about this doctor now as

> well.

>

> Thanks as usual for all of the input though.

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks again Phil!

I am glad to hear that the saliva based tests are more for a convenient look at

the curve, and might not be that accurate in terms of exact numbers per se. I

was hoping that was the case.

I tried to do the test exactly by the directions BTW. My teeth and gums are fine

as of my last check-up about 4 months ago.

I know you look at so much info you can't possibly remember all of it.

My T is still low as of my last test. I was at 209 for total on 12/09, but came

up to about 350 in August 2010.

My E2 was 52 on the Quest 4021 test,.....that is why he is putting me on

Arimidex.

He wants to attack that, and my thyroid first, and see where my T levels go

before starting me on a life long program of TRT. I agreed with that also,

especially after he said that I was not primary. This guy is not averse to high

T levels, as he keeps his own around the 1000 point, and he is an older guy as

in 60 or so. He thinks I might reach around 600 or more without TRT, and may

feel fine at that level. Said I can go on the other anytime that I want to

though.

The compounding thing is simply that he has the exact dosage made for each

patient. I was surprised to find out that my insurance covers even the Arimidex

for my usual 7 dollar co-pay.

I WAS surprised to find out the dosage though when they said it would be ready

tomorrow. He has me on .5mgs of Arimidex twice a week,......seems possibly a bit

high to me since I am not on TRT, but then again I am over 50 on E2. I guess I

can cut the compounded pills in half if need be.

The T3 med is what I thought,....5 mcgs once a day to start.

I definitely want to drop my E2 levels, and I think I will try the T3 med for a

few days since the dosage is so low. As Barb said, it appears he is

supplementing my T3 and not replacing it.

You folks talk about anxiety a lot. I have never really had it to

date,.......dealing with all of these meds is giving me a bit though! LOL

I agree with you fully in terms of my needing to calm down. I have tried to play

my own doc for a long time. I think it's time I trusted someone for a bit and

went along with the program so to speak!

>

> Marc not a problem all I am trying to do is give you all the info about this

so you know about it the more you learn the better off you are. I feel your Dr.

is spot on in what he is doing never said other wise. Yes low thyroid in some

people can cause higher levels of Cortisol and yes I feel blood labs are the

best we do 4x's / day Saliva testing to see now the rhythm looks but Saliva can

be off due to that was in your mouth and the shape of your gums. Still it can

shot you what your rhythm is it is very had to do blood Labs 4 x's / day.

>

> I would not get upset as to how high or low the saliva levels are what I look

for is one should be high in the morning going down lower by bedtime your not

doing this.

>

> Fixing your Thyroid might bring down your Cortisol levels as long as there are

not other hormone problems low testosterone can make levels go up. And

infection this can be just a small one in a tooth can drive up Cortisol levels.

>

> I feel your in great hands with this Dr. stop worrying all this will do is

keep your Cortisol levels up.

>

> And keep posting until your mind is at ease.

> Co-Moderator

> Phil

[Guest guest]

Your Dr. is doing what I have been telling new men here for yrs. Findout what

is wrong fix it retest this Dr. you have if great. Your .5 mgs. of Armimdex

2x's a weeks is less then I tell me over 50 pg/ml for Estradiol to take I tell

them every other day so do what he says he knows what he is doing from what I

see he is doing.

And it's ture you T levels can go up getting Estradiol and Thyroid in check I

have seen this happen many times. If later you fall low and every thing is in

rage then you go on TRT you have done all you can do and at that time need it.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: marc200134470 <cfs38@...>

> Subject: Re: One more thyroid question

>

> Date: Tuesday, December 28, 2010, 2:11 PM

>

>

> Thanks again Phil!

> I am glad to hear that the saliva based tests are more for

> a convenient look at the curve, and might not be that

> accurate in terms of exact numbers per se. I was hoping that

> was the case.

>

> I tried to do the test exactly by the directions BTW. My

> teeth and gums are fine as of my last check-up about 4

> months ago.

>

> I know you look at so much info you can't possibly remember

> all of it.

> My T is still low as of my last test. I was at 209 for

> total on 12/09, but came up to about 350 in August 2010.

> My E2 was 52 on the Quest 4021 test,.....that is why he is

> putting me on Arimidex.

>

> He wants to attack that, and my thyroid first, and see

> where my T levels go before starting me on a life long

> program of TRT. I agreed with that also, especially after he

> said that I was not primary. This guy is not averse to high

> T levels, as he keeps his own around the 1000 point, and he

> is an older guy as in 60 or so. He thinks I might reach

> around 600 or more without TRT, and may feel fine at that

> level. Said I can go on the other anytime that I want to

> though.

>

> The compounding thing is simply that he has the exact

> dosage made for each patient. I was surprised to find out

> that my insurance covers even the Arimidex for my usual 7

> dollar co-pay.

> I WAS surprised to find out the dosage though when they

> said it would be ready tomorrow. He has me on .5mgs of

> Arimidex twice a week,......seems possibly a bit high to me

> since I am not on TRT, but then again I am over 50 on E2. I

> guess I can cut the compounded pills in half if need be.

>

> The T3 med is what I thought,....5 mcgs once a day to

> start.

> I definitely want to drop my E2 levels, and I think I will

> try the T3 med for a few days since the dosage is so low. As

> Barb said, it appears he is supplementing my T3 and not

> replacing it.

>

> You folks talk about anxiety a lot. I have never really had

> it to date,.......dealing with all of these meds is giving

> me a bit though! LOL

>

> I agree with you fully in terms of my needing to calm down.

> I have tried to play my own doc for a long time. I think

> it's time I trusted someone for a bit and went along with

> the program so to speak!

>

>

>

> >

> > Marc not a problem all I am trying to do is give you

> all the info about this so you know about it the more you

> learn the better off you are.  I feel your Dr. is spot

> on in what he is doing never said other wise.  Yes low

> thyroid in some people can cause higher levels of Cortisol

> and yes I feel blood labs are the best we do 4x's / day

> Saliva testing to see now the rhythm looks but Saliva can be

> off due to that was in your mouth and the shape of your

> gums.  Still it can shot you what your rhythm is it is

> very had to do blood Labs 4 x's / day.

> >

> > I would not get upset as to how high or low the saliva

> levels are what I look for is one should be high in the

> morning going down lower by bedtime your not doing this.

> >

> > Fixing your Thyroid might bring down your Cortisol

> levels as long as there are not other hormone problems low

> testosterone can make levels go up.  And infection this

> can be just a small one in a tooth can drive up Cortisol

> levels.

> >

> > I feel your in great hands with this Dr. stop worrying

> all this will do is keep your Cortisol levels up.

> >

> > And keep posting until your mind is at ease.

> > Co-Moderator

> > Phil

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>