Re: New Website with Medical Journal References for your Doctor

February 23, 2011

It's my understanding that those side effects would be the result of high

cortisol. You don't think that some just end up taking too much HC? Some

also go hypo once they fix their cortisol and could gain weight from this.

-Nigel

On 23 February 2011 10:06, Barb <baba@...> wrote:

>

> DH got pre-glaucoma, and so did others on Val's list, but we were put on

> full moderation after we mentioned it. Many have complained of the buddha

> belly/weight gain, DH got a squamous cell skin cancer, some on the list have

> developed diabetes and osteoporosis, and everyone complains of insomnia.

> Jeffries said it was safe to take 20 mg. Val's group recommends much higher

> doses to everyone.

>

> Barb

>

February 23, 2011

Do you consider 30 mg HC excessive?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11207643

Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 2001 Feb;54(2):267-71.

Hydrocortisone replacement dosage influences intraocular pressure in patients

with primary and secondary hypocortisolism.

Li Voon Chong JS, Sen J, Z, G, MacFarlane IA.

Department of Endocrinology, University Hospital Aintree, Liverpool, UK.

Abstract

BACKGROUND: It has been suggested that the variation of intraocular pressure

(IOP) during the day follows the diurnal variation of serum cortisol. There is

also a higher risk of ocular hypertension and glaucoma in patients taking

excessive oral steroid treatment. We assessed whether different replacement

doses of hydrocortisone (HC) influenced IOP.

METHODS: Seventeen patients (six 's disease, 11 hypopituitarism; seven

males) aged 24-58 years mean 42.7 years and 20 control subjects (nine males)

aged 20--59 years mean 38.7 years were studied. On the first visit, the 17

patients had been taking HC replacement doses, 20 mg morning and 10 mg

afternoon. Serum cortisol and IOP in both eyes (Goldmann applanation tonometer)

were measured at 0900, 1100, 1300, 1500, 1700 hours with HC 20 mg taken after

the 0900 h assessment. The dose of HC was then reduced to 10 mg morning and 10

mg afternoon for 1 week and the measurements were repeated in 16 patients, with

HC 10 mg taken at 0900 h.

RESULTS: In the patients the peak serum cortisol occurred at 1100 h after the

0900 h HC dose. Cortisol levels were significantly higher at 1100, 1300, 1500

and 1700 h after taking 20 mg compared to 10 mg HC. The mean (SEM) IOP (mmHg)

was significantly higher after 20 mg HC compared with 10 mg HC at 1300 h:

14.7(0.6) v 13.1(0.6) (P = 0.004) and at 1500 h: 14.4(0.6) v 13.1(0.5) (P =

0.04). The total mean (SEM) daily IOP score was significantly higher after 20 mg

HC compared with 10 mg HC: 14.5(0.3) v 13.5(0.3) (P = 0.0002). The total mean

(SEM) daily IOP score after the 20 mg HC dose compared with the control subjects

was: 14.5(0.3) v 13.7(0.3) (P = 0.08).

CONCLUSION: Intraocular pressures during the day are influenced by the morning

hydrocortisone replacement dosage with significantly higher intraocular pressure

levels in the early afternoon following 20 mg compared with 10 mg. A morning

hydrocortisone dose of 10 mg leads to a more physiological intraocular pressure

profile during the day. These data support the view that a daily replacement

dose of 30 mg hydrocortisone may be excessive.

>

> >

> > DH got pre-glaucoma, and so did others on Val's list, but we were put on

> > full moderation after we mentioned it. Many have complained of the buddha

> > belly/weight gain, DH got a squamous cell skin cancer, some on the list have

> > developed diabetes and osteoporosis, and everyone complains of insomnia.

> > Jeffries said it was safe to take 20 mg. Val's group recommends much higher

> > doses to everyone.

> >

> > Barb

> >

>

February 23, 2011

Barb, my eyebrows thinned out a little more on T3 only than when I was hypo

previous to thyroid treatment. I never lost everything on the outer part

like some and it was the inner eyebrows that were noticeably thin with

slight thinning on the outer sections. Then eventually I got my ferritin up

and could then use mostly desiccated thyroid and I dropped a lot of the T3.

Now my eyebrows are thicker with the increase in desiccated.

It was probably getting more T4 in me that helped, but the iron could have

also played a role.

So yours remain thin?

-Nigel

On 22 February 2011 22:57, Barb <baba@...> wrote:

>

> Thanks Nigel. So did your eyebrows come back when you added T4? I still

> can't figure mine out. Hole in the middle.

>

February 23, 2011

Barb,

The ubjects of the study took 20 mg for their morning dose and 10 mg dose

for their afternoon dose. As is often the case with most research involving

hormones, they the HC was administered incorrectly. Taking 20 mg in a

single dose is considered supraphysiologic and dangerous; the recommended

upper limit single dose for HC is only 10 mg. They also found a significant

reduction in IOC from the 20 mg dose to the 10 mg dose and stated, " A

morning hydrocortisone dose of 10 mg leads to a more physiological

intraocular pressure profile during the day. " The article also never

discussed whether 30 mg total of HC would cause an increase in IOC. So, you

can conclude from this article that taking 30 mg total of HC in divided

doses of no more than 10 mg at each dose is completely safe.

Mike

On Wed, Feb 23, 2011 at 9:46 PM, Nigel <nachonigel@...> wrote:

>

> It's my understanding that those side effects would be the result of high

> cortisol. You don't think that some just end up taking too much HC? Some

> also go hypo once they fix their cortisol and could gain weight from this.

>

> -Nigel

>

> On 23 February 2011 10:06, Barb <baba@...> wrote:

>

> >

> > DH got pre-glaucoma, and so did others on Val's list, but we were put on

> > full moderation after we mentioned it. Many have complained of the buddha

>

> > belly/weight gain, DH got a squamous cell skin cancer, some on the list

> have

> > developed diabetes and osteoporosis, and everyone complains of insomnia.

> > Jeffries said it was safe to take 20 mg. Val's group recommends much

> higher

> > doses to everyone.

> >

> > Barb

> >

>

February 23, 2011

Who is DH? Blecha?

Safe use of cortisol - " 35-40 mg daily is necessary to inhibit endogenous

adrenal steroid production to zero " . Over 40mg is not long physiological.

>

> DH got pre-glaucoma, and so did others on Val's list, but we were put on full

moderation after we mentioned it. Many have complained of the buddha

belly/weight gain, DH got a squamous cell skin cancer, some on the list have

developed diabetes and osteoporosis, and everyone complains of insomnia.

Jeffries said it was safe to take 20 mg. Val's group recommends much higher

doses to everyone.

>

> Barb

>

February 23, 2011

Sorry, not a great example. But you're all missing the point. There is

something called a steroid responder, and it doesn't matter how small a dose

they take, their side effect is glaucoma. 92% do NOT get this reaction, but 8%

do. Here's a link about them:

http://www.willsglaucoma.org/supportgroup/20030827.php

Here's another study that says 18-36% are steroid responders.

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/adis/dag/1999/00000015/00000006/art00004

IIRC, a woman on the group was taking only 15-20 mg HC per day and also ended up

with pre-glaucoma. When she stopped the HC, her eye pressure went down. DH had

the same reaction and was taking about 30 mg, but his first a.m. dose was never

more than 10 mg.

I don't believe educating people about potential side effects is fear-mongering.

I believe moderating posts so nothing bad is ever discussed is deceptive and

dangerous. WHY do you think the list is on full moderation?

Both Phil and HAN can vouch that more than one has contacted them off-list about

problems from following the recommendations on those groups. I have also been

contacted by others who have been banned from the list. List members almost

have a cult mentality, and cannot see the truth until they, like the others,

become sicker and are forced out.

If you are under Dr. no's care, then I wouldn't worry about you. The man's

a genius. But for others that are self-treating when they're in a brain fog?

IDK.

Barb

> >

> > >

> > > DH got pre-glaucoma, and so did others on Val's list, but we were put on

> > > full moderation after we mentioned it. Many have complained of the buddha

> >

> > > belly/weight gain, DH got a squamous cell skin cancer, some on the list

> > have

> > > developed diabetes and osteoporosis, and everyone complains of insomnia.

> > > Jeffries said it was safe to take 20 mg. Val's group recommends much

> > higher

> > > doses to everyone.

> > >

> > > Barb

> > >

> >

February 23, 2011

DH is Dear Hubby. These side effects I'm talking about occur at less than 40

mg, sometimes even 30 mg.

How much are you taking? How's that going for you?

> >

> > DH got pre-glaucoma, and so did others on Val's list, but we were put on

full moderation after we mentioned it. Many have complained of the buddha

belly/weight gain, DH got a squamous cell skin cancer, some on the list have

developed diabetes and osteoporosis, and everyone complains of insomnia.

Jeffries said it was safe to take 20 mg. Val's group recommends much higher

doses to everyone.

> >

> > Barb

> >

>

February 23, 2011

Barb,

I totally get what you are saying. I think that Val and Diane do a great job

educating people who come on there with questions; however, I think that

they do have a tendency to be very liberal in their recommendations. One

major trend I have seen though is that most will just blindly start doing

what Val and Diane recommend without also charting their temps, taking their

pulse, etc.. I think that a lot of people get into trouble because they

don't do this and wind up with too much HC or T3. However, they have also

done a lot of good for a lot of people.

On Wed, Feb 23, 2011 at 11:23 PM, Barb <baba@...> wrote:

>

> Sorry, not a great example. But you're all missing the point. There is

> something called a steroid responder, and it doesn't matter how small a dose

> they take, their side effect is glaucoma. 92% do NOT get this reaction, but

> 8% do. Here's a link about them:

> http://www.willsglaucoma.org/supportgroup/20030827.php

>

> Here's another study that says 18-36% are steroid responders.

> http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/adis/dag/1999/00000015/00000006/art00004

>

> IIRC, a woman on the group was taking only 15-20 mg HC per day and also

> ended up with pre-glaucoma. When she stopped the HC, her eye pressure went

> down. DH had the same reaction and was taking about 30 mg, but his first

> a.m. dose was never more than 10 mg.

>

> I don't believe educating people about potential side effects is

> fear-mongering. I believe moderating posts so nothing bad is ever discussed

> is deceptive and dangerous. WHY do you think the list is on full moderation?

>

> Both Phil and HAN can vouch that more than one has contacted them off-list

> about problems from following the recommendations on those groups. I have

> also been contacted by others who have been banned from the list. List

> members almost have a cult mentality, and cannot see the truth until they,

> like the others, become sicker and are forced out.

>

> If you are under Dr. no's care, then I wouldn't worry about you. The

> man's a genius. But for others that are self-treating when they're in a

> brain fog? IDK.

>

> Barb

>

> > >

> > > >

> > > > DH got pre-glaucoma, and so did others on Val's list, but we were put

> on

> > > > full moderation after we mentioned it. Many have complained of the

> buddha

> > >

> > > > belly/weight gain, DH got a squamous cell skin cancer, some on the

> list

> > > have

> > > > developed diabetes and osteoporosis, and everyone complains of

> insomnia.

> > > > Jeffries said it was safe to take 20 mg. Val's group recommends much

> > > higher

> > > > doses to everyone.

> > > >

> > > > Barb

> > > >

> > >

February 23, 2011

One thing that I found for myself is that you can't just get on HC without

getting on thyroid as well. Many get on HC and aren' able to get on thyroid

for a long time so the HC they are taking is not getting used up like it

should and as a result, is probably reeking havoc on their bodies.

On Wed, Feb 23, 2011 at 11:27 PM, Barb <baba@...> wrote:

>

> DH is Dear Hubby. These side effects I'm talking about occur at less than

> 40 mg, sometimes even 30 mg.

>

> How much are you taking? How's that going for you?

>

> > >

> > > DH got pre-glaucoma, and so did others on Val's list, but we were put

> on full moderation after we mentioned it. Many have complained of the buddha

> belly/weight gain, DH got a squamous cell skin cancer, some on the list have

> developed diabetes and osteoporosis, and everyone complains of insomnia.

> Jeffries said it was safe to take 20 mg. Val's group recommends much higher

> doses to everyone.

> > >

> > > Barb

> > >

> >

>

--

Mike

February 23, 2011

I am was on 25 HC with stable temps(totally i take 4 months without any side

effects, only benefits), then started T3, but at 50 mcg T3 temps started swing

very much, so decreased T3 to 43mcg and now wait what gonna happen. Checking my

basal, 3x temps

My dream is one day to become normal(not hypoT, not hyperT) on HC/T3, then

decrease HC to 20HC, then switch to 2grains erfa and then wean of HC.

> > >

> > > DH got pre-glaucoma, and so did others on Val's list, but we were put on

full moderation after we mentioned it. Many have complained of the buddha

belly/weight gain, DH got a squamous cell skin cancer, some on the list have

developed diabetes and osteoporosis, and everyone complains of insomnia.

Jeffries said it was safe to take 20 mg. Val's group recommends much higher

doses to everyone.

> > >

> > > Barb

> > >

> >

>

February 24, 2011

Mike it's OK I can't not take HC meds I am on them for life but I don't tell

people they need to be on them and my fear is to many people self treat.

Barb's site is great I have posted her site all over the place and even put it

in the links section here. I am still at it.

Co-Moderator

Phil

>

> >

> > Glaucoma is a side effect of HC use in about 8% of

> people called steroid

> > responders. That means 92%, or most people following

> Val's instructions,

> > won't develop that problem. But if you're in that 8%,

> wow, blindness? That's

> > a real risk that people should be warned about, and

> aren't. Regular eye

> > doctor appts are imperative if taking HC.

> >

> > > > >

> > > > > > From: Barb <baba@>

> > > > > > Subject: New

> Website with Medical

> > > > Journal References for your Doctor

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Date: Tuesday, February 22, 2011,

> 9:15 PM

> > > > > > Check out TiredThyroid.com, a new

> > > > > > website that covers the most

> common topics

> > > > discussed on the

> > > > > > forums, with medical journal

> references to

> > > > convince your

> > > > > > doctor that " you CAN believe what

> you read on

> > > > the

> > > > > > internet! "

> > > > > > Ã‚

> > > > > > More info on the rT3 debate: http://tiredthyroid.com/rt3.html

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Why you shouldn't donate blood

> more than twice a

> > > > year:

> > > > > > http://tiredthyroid.com/mens-hormones.html

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Why you shouldn't trust a TSH to

> tell if you're

> > > > > > hypothyroid:

> > > > > > http://tiredthyroid.com/tsh.html

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Barb

> > > > > >

> ------------------------------------

> > > > > >

February 24, 2011

Yes, self treating can be dangerous. I did this for about 6 months and

really screwed myself up - gained 40 pounds, lost a ton of muscle and my

face looks like a cabbage patch doll.

Thankfully I'm on the right track right now.

Yes, very good sight Barb has put together with tons of useful information.

Mike

On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 7:23 AM, philip georgian <pmgamer18@...>wrote:

>

> Mike it's OK I can't not take HC meds I am on them for life but I don't

> tell people they need to be on them and my fear is to many people self

> treat.

>

> Barb's site is great I have posted her site all over the place and even put

> it in the links section here. I am still at it.

> Co-Moderator

> Phil

>

> >

> > >

> > > Glaucoma is a side effect of HC use in about 8% of

> > people called steroid

> > > responders. That means 92%, or most people following

> > Val's instructions,

> > > won't develop that problem. But if you're in that 8%,

> > wow, blindness? That's

> > > a real risk that people should be warned about, and

> > aren't. Regular eye

> > > doctor appts are imperative if taking HC.

> > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > From: Barb <baba@>

> > > > > > > Subject: New

> > Website with Medical

> > > > > Journal References for your Doctor

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Date: Tuesday, February 22, 2011,

> > 9:15 PM

> > > > > > > Check out TiredThyroid.com, a new

> > > > > > > website that covers the most

> > common topics

> > > > > discussed on the

> > > > > > > forums, with medical journal

> > references to

> > > > > convince your

> > > > > > > doctor that " you CAN believe what

> > you read on

> > > > > the

> > > > > > > internet! "

> > > > > > > Â

> > > > > > > More info on the rT3 debate: http://tiredthyroid.com/rt3.html

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Why you shouldn't donate blood

> > more than twice a

> > > > > year:

> > > > > > > http://tiredthyroid.com/mens-hormones.html

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Why you shouldn't trust a TSH to

> > tell if you're

> > > > > > > hypothyroid:

> > > > > > > http://tiredthyroid.com/tsh.html

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Barb

> > > > > > >

> > ------------------------------------

> > > > > > >

February 24, 2011

Did he say why and how long you would need to be on T3 only meds.

Co-Moderator

Phil

>

> >

> > I only know of Dr. no through his website, but am

> a huge fan. Finally,

> > someone who really knows their stuff! Just curious,

> you're his patient and

> > he's ok with T3-only treatment?

> >

> > Barb

> >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > From: Barb

> <baba@>

> > > > > > > > Subject:

> New Website with Medical

> > > > > > Journal References for your

> Doctor

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Date: Tuesday, February

> 22, 2011, 9:15 PM

> > > > > > > > Check out

> TiredThyroid.com, a new

> > > > > > > > website that covers the

> most common topics

> > > > > > discussed on the

> > > > > > > > forums, with medical

> journal references to

> > > > > > convince your

> > > > > > > > doctor that " you CAN

> believe what you read on

> > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > internet! "

> > > > > > > > Ã‚

> > > > > > > > More info on the rT3

> debate: http://tiredthyroid.com/rt3.html

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Why you shouldn't donate

> blood more than twice a

> > > > > > year:

> > > > > > > > http://tiredthyroid.com/mens-hormones.html

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Why you shouldn't trust

> a TSH to tell if you're

> > > > > > > > hypothyroid:

> > > > > > > > http://tiredthyroid.com/tsh.html

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Barb

> > > > > > > >

> ------------------------------------

> > > > > > > >

February 24, 2011

I am sorry but I don't buy them Studies did the check there eyes first before

taking HC and who takes 20 mgs at a time. every thing I have read about dosing

is to match your body's rhythm. Most people do 5, 7.5 or 10 mgs first thing in

the morning then do 5 mgs every 4 hrs.

And every older person I know has glaucoma and they are not on HC meds.

It's about life or death and for every study one finds for something you can

find one against it.

My job before I retired was in Quality Control using Statistical Process Control

Software. I can tell you that study has such a small sample it makes it useless.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: Barb <baba@...>

> Subject: Re: New Website with Medical Journal References for

your Doctor

>

> Date: Wednesday, February 23, 2011, 11:59 PM

> Do you consider 30 mg HC excessive?

>

> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11207643

>

> Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 2001 Feb;54(2):267-71.

> Hydrocortisone replacement dosage influences intraocular

> pressure in patients with primary and secondary

> hypocortisolism.

>

> Li Voon Chong JS, Sen J, Z, G, MacFarlane IA.

>

> Department of Endocrinology, University Hospital Aintree,

> Liverpool, UK.

> Abstract

>

> BACKGROUND: It has been suggested that the variation of

> intraocular pressure (IOP) during the day follows the

> diurnal variation of serum cortisol. There is also a higher

> risk of ocular hypertension and glaucoma in patients taking

> excessive oral steroid treatment. We assessed whether

> different replacement doses of hydrocortisone (HC)

> influenced IOP.

>

> METHODS: Seventeen patients (six 's disease, 11

> hypopituitarism; seven males) aged 24-58 years mean 42.7

> years and 20 control subjects (nine males) aged 20--59 years

> mean 38.7 years were studied. On the first visit, the 17

> patients had been taking HC replacement doses, 20 mg morning

> and 10 mg afternoon. Serum cortisol and IOP in both eyes

> (Goldmann applanation tonometer) were measured at 0900,

> 1100, 1300, 1500, 1700 hours with HC 20 mg taken after the

> 0900 h assessment. The dose of HC was then reduced to 10 mg

> morning and 10 mg afternoon for 1 week and the measurements

> were repeated in 16 patients, with HC 10 mg taken at 0900

> h.

>

> RESULTS: In the patients the peak serum cortisol occurred

> at 1100 h after the 0900 h HC dose. Cortisol levels were

> significantly higher at 1100, 1300, 1500 and 1700 h after

> taking 20 mg compared to 10 mg HC. The mean (SEM) IOP (mmHg)

> was significantly higher after 20 mg HC compared with 10 mg

> HC at 1300 h: 14.7(0.6) v 13.1(0.6) (P = 0.004) and at 1500

> h: 14.4(0.6) v 13.1(0.5) (P = 0.04). The total mean (SEM)

> daily IOP score was significantly higher after 20 mg HC

> compared with 10 mg HC: 14.5(0.3) v 13.5(0.3) (P = 0.0002).

> The total mean (SEM) daily IOP score after the 20 mg HC dose

> compared with the control subjects was: 14.5(0.3) v

> 13.7(0.3) (P = 0.08).

>

> CONCLUSION: Intraocular pressures during the day are

> influenced by the morning hydrocortisone replacement dosage

> with significantly higher intraocular pressure levels in the

> early afternoon following 20 mg compared with 10 mg. A

> morning hydrocortisone dose of 10 mg leads to a more

> physiological intraocular pressure profile during the day.

> These data support the view that a daily replacement dose of

> 30 mg hydrocortisone may be excessive.

>

> >

> > >

> > > DH got pre-glaucoma, and so did others on Val's

> list, but we were put on

> > > full moderation after we mentioned it. Many have

> complained of the buddha

> > > belly/weight gain, DH got a squamous cell skin

> cancer, some on the list have

> > > developed diabetes and osteoporosis, and everyone

> complains of insomnia.

> > > Jeffries said it was safe to take 20 mg. Val's

> group recommends much higher

> > > doses to everyone.

> > >

> > > Barb

> > >

> >

February 24, 2011

Thanks Phil. You are an example of someone who is truly hypopituitary. You

NEED HC. Many of these people are not. They suffer from what Dr. no calls

non-thyroidal illness, which is why they have to use HC and desiccated thyroid

in such high doses. And while they might mean well, to extend that advice to

everyone is, to me, just dangerous.

Barb

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > From: Barb <baba@>

> > > > > > > Subject: New

> > Website with Medical

> > > > > Journal References for your Doctor

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Date: Tuesday, February 22, 2011,

> > 9:15 PM

> > > > > > > Check out TiredThyroid.com, a new

> > > > > > > website that covers the most

> > common topics

> > > > > discussed on the

> > > > > > > forums, with medical journal

> > references to

> > > > > convince your

> > > > > > > doctor that " you CAN believe what

> > you read on

> > > > > the

> > > > > > > internet! "

> > > > > > > Ã‚

> > > > > > > More info on the rT3 debate: http://tiredthyroid.com/rt3.html

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Why you shouldn't donate blood

> > more than twice a

> > > > > year:

> > > > > > > http://tiredthyroid.com/mens-hormones.html

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Why you shouldn't trust a TSH to

> > tell if you're

> > > > > > > hypothyroid:

> > > > > > > http://tiredthyroid.com/tsh.html

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Barb

> > > > > > >

> > ------------------------------------

> > > > > > >

February 24, 2011

Not sure but he does want to eventually switch me to dessicated thyroid and

get me off of the HC if I can. He doesn't think that I damaged my pituitary

gland so I should be able to get off of it at some point.

Mike

On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 7:59 AM, philip georgian <pmgamer18@...>wrote:

>

> Did he say why and how long you would need to be on T3 only meds.

> Co-Moderator

> Phil

>

> >

> > >

> > > I only know of Dr. no through his website, but am

> > a huge fan. Finally,

> > > someone who really knows their stuff! Just curious,

> > you're his patient and

> > > he's ok with T3-only treatment?

> > >

> > > Barb

> > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > From: Barb

> > <baba@>

> > > > > > > > > Subject:

> > New Website with Medical

> > > > > > > Journal References for your

> > Doctor

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Date: Tuesday, February

> > 22, 2011, 9:15 PM

> > > > > > > > > Check out

> > TiredThyroid.com, a new

> > > > > > > > > website that covers the

> > most common topics

> > > > > > > discussed on the

> > > > > > > > > forums, with medical

> > journal references to

> > > > > > > convince your

> > > > > > > > > doctor that " you CAN

> > believe what you read on

> > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > internet! "

> > > > > > > > > Â

> > > > > > > > > More info on the rT3

> > debate: http://tiredthyroid.com/rt3.html

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Why you shouldn't donate

> > blood more than twice a

> > > > > > > year:

> > > > > > > > > http://tiredthyroid.com/mens-hormones.html

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Why you shouldn't trust

> > a TSH to tell if you're

> > > > > > > > > hypothyroid:

> > > > > > > > > http://tiredthyroid.com/tsh.html

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Barb

> > > > > > > > >

> > ------------------------------------

> > > > > > > > >

February 24, 2011

Good point Barb and I feel everyone needs to know what can happen on drugs.

Most Dr.'s will not put someone on HC meds if there life depended on it. They

learned in Med School about the use of HC when it first came out and the damage

it did at them very high dose's.

Dr. M even feels this book by Jeffries is the bible for treating low Cortisol

levels with HC meds.

http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/safe-uses/

================================================

SAFE USES OF CORTISOL by McK. Jeffries 3rd Edition

Chapter 1-Background

The first chapter discusses the history of our knowledge of cortisone and

cortisol. In 1929, Dr. Hench figured out that rheumatoid arthritis disappeared

because of a normal adrenocortical response after surgery, pregnancy and other

situations. They didnâ€™t multi-dose then, and used much larger amounts than

needed. We now know that smaller dosages of cortisone or cortisol are effective

and may take ten to 14 days to produce impressive improvement in arthritis.

Because they used such large doses of cortisol in treatment, side effects

occurred, and the presumption was made that any dosage of any glucocorticoid

would have potentially hazardous and undesirable effects. â€œFor over thirty

years, physicians have been indoctrinated with this concept.â€

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: Barb <baba@...>

> Subject: Re: New Website with Medical Journal References for

your Doctor

>

> Date: Thursday, February 24, 2011, 1:23 AM

> Sorry, not a great example.Â But

> you're all missing the point.Â There is something

> called a steroid responder, and it doesn't matter how small

> a dose they take, their side effect is glaucoma.Â 92%

> do NOT get this reaction, but 8% do.Â Here's a link

> about them: http://www.willsglaucoma.org/supportgroup/20030827.php

>

> Here's another study that says 18-36% are steroid

> responders.

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/adis/dag/1999/00000015/00000006/art00004

>

> IIRC, a woman on the group was taking only 15-20 mg HC per

> day and also ended up with pre-glaucoma.Â When she

> stopped the HC, her eye pressure went down.Â DH had the

> same reaction and was taking about 30 mg, but his first a.m.

> dose was never more than 10 mg.

>

> I don't believe educating people about potential side

> effects is fear-mongering.Â I believe moderating posts

> so nothing bad is ever discussed is deceptive and

> dangerous.Â WHY do you think the list is on full

> moderation?

>

> Both Phil and HAN can vouch that more than one has

> contacted them off-list about problems from following the

> recommendations on those groups.Â I have also been

> contacted by others who have been banned from the

> list.Â List members almost have a cult mentality, and

> cannot see the truth until they, like the others, become

> sicker and are forced out.

>

> If you are under Dr. no's care, then I wouldn't worry

> about you.Â The man's a genius.Â But for others

> that are self-treating when they're in a brain fog?Â

> IDK.Â

>

> Barb

>

> > >

> > > >

> > > > DH got pre-glaucoma, and so did others on

> Val's list, but we were put on

> > > > full moderation after we mentioned it. Many

> have complained of the buddha

> > >

> > > > belly/weight gain, DH got a squamous cell

> skin cancer, some on the list

> > > have

> > > > developed diabetes and osteoporosis, and

> everyone complains of insomnia.

> > > > Jeffries said it was safe to take 20 mg.

> Val's group recommends much

> > > higher

> > > > doses to everyone.

> > > >

> > > > Barb

> > > >

> > >

> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

> > >

> > >Â

> > >

> >

> > --

> > Mike

> >

February 24, 2011

But there forums about about self treating most of the people there are not

under a Dr.'s care. I hate to say this but it needs to be said I get people

sending me PM's and Emails that can't be read saying how sick they ended up self

treating and following them forums. The ones that posted in the open that they

are having problems get the boot.

When we were mods at stopthethyroidmadness.com the owner had to shut down the

forums because of law suits. She was been harassed by some Lowers because some

mods were telling people how to take meds and what meds to take.

At the new forum realthyroidhelp.com mods are not aloud to do this. And there

is very little take about how to treat Adrenals.

Co-Moderator

Phil

>

> >

> > Sorry, not a great example. But you're all missing the

> point. There is

> > something called a steroid responder, and it doesn't

> matter how small a dose

> > they take, their side effect is glaucoma. 92% do NOT

> get this reaction, but

> > 8% do. Here's a link about them:

> > http://www.willsglaucoma.org/supportgroup/20030827.php

> >

> > Here's another study that says 18-36% are steroid

> responders.

> >

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/adis/dag/1999/00000015/00000006/art00004

> >

> > IIRC, a woman on the group was taking only 15-20 mg HC

> per day and also

> > ended up with pre-glaucoma. When she stopped the HC,

> her eye pressure went

> > down. DH had the same reaction and was taking about 30

> mg, but his first

> > a.m. dose was never more than 10 mg.

> >

> > I don't believe educating people about potential side

> effects is

> > fear-mongering. I believe moderating posts so nothing

> bad is ever discussed

> > is deceptive and dangerous. WHY do you think the list

> is on full moderation?

> >

> > Both Phil and HAN can vouch that more than one has

> contacted them off-list

> > about problems from following the recommendations on

> those groups. I have

> > also been contacted by others who have been banned

> from the list. List

> > members almost have a cult mentality, and cannot see

> the truth until they,

> > like the others, become sicker and are forced out.

> >

> > If you are under Dr. no's care, then I wouldn't

> worry about you. The

> > man's a genius. But for others that are self-treating

> when they're in a

> > brain fog? IDK.

> >

> > Barb

> >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > DH got pre-glaucoma, and so did others

> on Val's list, but we were put

> > on

> > > > > full moderation after we mentioned it.

> Many have complained of the

> > buddha

> > > >

> > > > > belly/weight gain, DH got a squamous

> cell skin cancer, some on the

> > list

> > > > have

> > > > > developed diabetes and osteoporosis,

> and everyone complains of

> > insomnia.

> > > > > Jeffries said it was safe to take 20

> mg. Val's group recommends much

> > > > higher

> > > > > doses to everyone.

> > > > >

> > > > > Barb

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

> > > >

> > >

> > > --

> > > Mike

> > >

> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

> > >

> >

>

> --

> Mike

>

February 24, 2011

Men are getting off HC meds doing Preg. cream at Dr. 's forum the mod there

chilln has a sticky " Hormones 101 " we all need to read this it very good and a

work in progress. He has found doing the right does of Preg. or Prog. he can

stop HC meds and dose not need Arimidex to control Estraidol.

http://www.musclechatroom.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?2-All-Things-Male & s= & dayspr\

une=

I tried this my morning Cortisol levels on 30 mgs / day of HC went up from 12 to

19 doing this the higher cortisol from the Preg. cream slowed down the

conversion of my Testosterone into Estraiol.

I must say doing this is not easy and takes a lot of time testing and work to

get it right. And for some it might not even work.

Co-Moderator

Phil

>

> >

> > DH is Dear Hubby. These side effects I'm talking about

> occur at less than

> > 40 mg, sometimes even 30 mg.

> >

> > How much are you taking? How's that going for you?

> >

> > > >

> > > > DH got pre-glaucoma, and so did others on

> Val's list, but we were put

> > on full moderation after we mentioned it. Many have

> complained of the buddha

> > belly/weight gain, DH got a squamous cell skin cancer,

> some on the list have

> > developed diabetes and osteoporosis, and everyone

> complains of insomnia.

> > Jeffries said it was safe to take 20 mg. Val's group

> recommends much higher

> > doses to everyone.

> > > >

> > > > Barb

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

> --

> Mike

>

February 24, 2011

I think the main problem is that everyone over there feels that HC is the

" cure-all. " So, when they feel like crap or if the HC isn't working, they

just up it and keep doing so until they get on very high doses. Like I

said, Val and Diane do a pretty good job educating people on the ins and

outs of thyroid treatment but that shouldn't substitute for sound medical

advice.

Although I don't completely agree with everything on your new website Barb

(and that is okay b/c you ain't gonna please everyone) I think overall it is

a fantastic website. You do a great job of providing a different

perspective on hormone treatment, which is something that I have learned in

the past few months is necessary. Otherwise, one could get themselves in a

lot of trouble just blindly taking this and that hormone.

Mike

On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 9:00 AM, philip georgian <pmgamer18@...>wrote:

>

> Good point Barb and I feel everyone needs to know what can happen on drugs.

> Most Dr.'s will not put someone on HC meds if there life depended on it.

> They learned in Med School about the use of HC when it first came out and

> the damage it did at them very high dose's.

> Dr. M even feels this book by Jeffries is the bible for treating low

> Cortisol levels with HC meds.

> http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/safe-uses/

> ================================================

> SAFE USES OF CORTISOL by McK. Jeffries 3rd Edition

>

> Chapter 1-Background

>

> The first chapter discusses the history of our knowledge of cortisone and

> cortisol. In 1929, Dr. Hench figured out that rheumatoid arthritis

> disappeared because of a normal adrenocortical response after surgery,

> pregnancy and other situations. They didn’t multi-dose then, and used much

> larger amounts than needed. We now know that smaller dosages of cortisone or

> cortisol are effective and may take ten to 14 days to produce impressive

> improvement in arthritis. Because they used such large doses of cortisol in

> treatment, side effects occurred, and the presumption was made that any

> dosage of any glucocorticoid would have potentially hazardous and

> undesirable effects. “For over thirty years, physicians have been

> indoctrinated with this concept.”

>

> Co-Moderator

> Phil

>

> > From: Barb <baba@...>

> > Subject: Re: New Website with Medical Journal References

> for your Doctor

> >

> > Date: Thursday, February 24, 2011, 1:23 AM

> > Sorry, not a great example. But

> > you're all missing the point. There is something

> > called a steroid responder, and it doesn't matter how small

> > a dose they take, their side effect is glaucoma. 92%

> > do NOT get this reaction, but 8% do. Here's a link

> > about them: http://www.willsglaucoma.org/supportgroup/20030827.php

> >

> > Here's another study that says 18-36% are steroid

> > responders.

> http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/adis/dag/1999/00000015/00000006/art00004

> >

> > IIRC, a woman on the group was taking only 15-20 mg HC per

> > day and also ended up with pre-glaucoma. When she

> > stopped the HC, her eye pressure went down. DH had the

> > same reaction and was taking about 30 mg, but his first a.m.

> > dose was never more than 10 mg.

> >

> > I don't believe educating people about potential side

> > effects is fear-mongering. I believe moderating posts

> > so nothing bad is ever discussed is deceptive and

> > dangerous. WHY do you think the list is on full

> > moderation?

> >

> > Both Phil and HAN can vouch that more than one has

> > contacted them off-list about problems from following the

> > recommendations on those groups. I have also been

> > contacted by others who have been banned from the

> > list. List members almost have a cult mentality, and

> > cannot see the truth until they, like the others, become

> > sicker and are forced out.

> >

> > If you are under Dr. no's care, then I wouldn't worry

> > about you. The man's a genius. But for others

> > that are self-treating when they're in a brain fog?

> > IDK.

> >

> > Barb

> >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > DH got pre-glaucoma, and so did others on

> > Val's list, but we were put on

> > > > > full moderation after we mentioned it. Many

> > have complained of the buddha

> > > >

> > > > > belly/weight gain, DH got a squamous cell

> > skin cancer, some on the list

> > > > have

> > > > > developed diabetes and osteoporosis, and

> > everyone complains of insomnia.

> > > > > Jeffries said it was safe to take 20 mg.

> > Val's group recommends much

> > > > higher

> > > > > doses to everyone.

> > > > >

> > > > > Barb

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> > removed]

> > > >

> > >

> > > --

> > > Mike

> > >

February 24, 2011

Can I tell you the best way to take and keep track of your temps it's all in

this link. I did this for 2 yrs everyday.

http://www.drrind.com/therapies/metabolic-temperature-graph

You can print out a chart to track your temps don't use Digital thermometers. I

got this one off the web.

http://www.wilsonssyndrome.com/Products/Thermometer.htm

They sell it at WalGreens.

I took my temps after I was up 3 hrs every 3 hrs 3x's/day added them up and div.

by 3 this is my avg.

When I first went on HC meds I keep track of my temps avg. if my temp went up or

down more the 2ths. I knew my body was not yet supported on HC meds and until my

temps became stable I did not start on Thyroid meds.

Then when I started on thyroid meds I started on 45 mgs my temps avg. went up a

little then in about 2 weeks if would fall back some this is when I added more

Armour 15 mgs I kept doing this until I was on 90 mgs this I held this dose for

8 weeks did labs. If my labs were below mid range and I did not feel better I

went up 15 mgs more. And my temps avg. would go up then hold the stating temp I

had was very low 96.8 today it's 98.4 on avg.

I don't mess with my basal temps anymore.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: antanas_aradas <antanas_aradas@...>

> Subject: Re: New Website with Medical Journal References for

your Doctor

>

> Date: Thursday, February 24, 2011, 2:35 AM

> I am was on 25 HC with stable

> temps(totally i take 4 months without any side effects, only

> benefits), then started T3, but at 50 mcg T3 temps started

> swing very much, so decreased T3 to 43mcg and now wait what

> gonna happen. Checking my basal, 3x temps

>

> My dream is one day to become normal(not hypoT, not hyperT)

> on HC/T3, then decrease HC to 20HC, then switch to 2grains

> erfa and then wean of HC.

>

> > > >

> > > > DH got pre-glaucoma, and so did others on

> Val's list, but we were put on full moderation after we

> mentioned it. Many have complained of the buddha

> belly/weight gain, DH got a squamous cell skin cancer, some

> on the list have developed diabetes and osteoporosis, and

> everyone complains of insomnia. Jeffries said it was

> safe to take 20 mg. Val's group recommends much higher

> doses to everyone.

> > > >

> > > > Barb

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

> ------------------------------------

>

February 24, 2011

, if you want to email me off-list about what you disagree with, I will

take it into consideration. I would like to think I am open to other ideas. I

am already seeing comments on other groups where there is just

misinterpretation. I actually go back and look at what I wrote and see that I

didn't say what they think I said! For example, in the rT3 section, I start out

right away by saying that T3-only treatment DOES work for some. My point of the

section is that many OTHERS have become worse, and they don't understand why. I

tried to explain why.

Barb

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > DH got pre-glaucoma, and so did others on

> > > Val's list, but we were put on

> > > > > > full moderation after we mentioned it. Many

> > > have complained of the buddha

> > > > >

> > > > > > belly/weight gain, DH got a squamous cell

> > > skin cancer, some on the list

> > > > > have

> > > > > > developed diabetes and osteoporosis, and

> > > everyone complains of insomnia.

> > > > > > Jeffries said it was safe to take 20 mg.

> > > Val's group recommends much

> > > > > higher

> > > > > > doses to everyone.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Barb

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> > > removed]

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > --

> > > > Mike

> > > >

February 24, 2011

Your in good dam good hands with Dr. M.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> > >

> > > >

> > > > Glaucoma is a side effect of HC use in about

> 8% of

> > > people called steroid

> > > > responders. That means 92%, or most people

> following

> > > Val's instructions,

> > > > won't develop that problem. But if you're in

> that 8%,

> > > wow, blindness? That's

> > > > a real risk that people should be warned

> about, and

> > > aren't. Regular eye

> > > > doctor appts are imperative if taking HC.

> > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > From: Barb

> <baba@>

> > > > > > > > Subject:

> New

> > > Website with Medical

> > > > > > Journal References for your

> Doctor

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Date: Tuesday, February

> 22, 2011,

> > > 9:15 PM

> > > > > > > > Check out

> TiredThyroid.com, a new

> > > > > > > > website that covers the

> most

> > > common topics

> > > > > > discussed on the

> > > > > > > > forums, with medical

> journal

> > > references to

> > > > > > convince your

> > > > > > > > doctor that " you CAN

> believe what

> > > you read on

> > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > internet! "

> > > > > > > > Ã‚

> > > > > > > > More info on the rT3

> debate: http://tiredthyroid.com/rt3.html

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Why you shouldn't donate

> blood

> > > more than twice a

> > > > > > year:

> > > > > > > > http://tiredthyroid.com/mens-hormones.html

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Why you shouldn't trust

> a TSH to

> > > tell if you're

> > > > > > > > hypothyroid:

> > > > > > > > http://tiredthyroid.com/tsh.html

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Barb

> > > > > > > >

> > > ------------------------------------

> > > > > > > >

February 24, 2011

Barb, I wouldn't worry about it. I think the website if fine the way it is

and my disagreements are very minor.

After our discussion last night about T3 only treatment, I thought about it

and came to a conclusion. I think what it is is that the brain doesn't need

T4 to survive. However, it probably needs a lot of T3 in order to function.

So, in order to get your brain the needed amount of T3, you have to

supplement a lot of the T3 to meet that need, which can have dire

consequences on your body. So, that is probably why most have to take

100mcg or more of T3 in oder to function. Taking a T4/T3 combo allows you to

take less T3 which is probably better for you body? Just my interpretation

of it...

On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 9:49 AM, Barb <baba@...> wrote:

>

> , if you want to email me off-list about what you disagree with, I

> will take it into consideration. I would like to think I am open to other

> ideas. I am already seeing comments on other groups where there is just

> misinterpretation. I actually go back and look at what I wrote and see that

> I didn't say what they think I said! For example, in the rT3 section, I

> start out right away by saying that T3-only treatment DOES work for some. My

> point of the section is that many OTHERS have become worse, and they don't

> understand why. I tried to explain why.

>

> Barb

>

> > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > DH got pre-glaucoma, and so did others on

> > > > Val's list, but we were put on

> > > > > > > full moderation after we mentioned it. Many

> > > > have complained of the buddha

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > belly/weight gain, DH got a squamous cell

> > > > skin cancer, some on the list

> > > > > > have

> > > > > > > developed diabetes and osteoporosis, and

> > > > everyone complains of insomnia.

> > > > > > > Jeffries said it was safe to take 20 mg.

> > > > Val's group recommends much

> > > > > > higher

> > > > > > > doses to everyone.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Barb

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> > > > removed]

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > --

> > > > > Mike

> > > > >

February 24, 2011

Dr. no say that the brain and body are in two different compartments (think

Alzheimer's - no brain, functioning body, or Hawking - genius, no

functioning body). So your theory makes sense. I was brain-dead with low T4;

but if I cranked up the T3 to satisfy my brain's requirement, my body would have

gone hyper with tachycardia by the time my brain had enough T3. That's why the

brain has its own deiodinase enzymes to convert the T4 to T3 up there. It's

possible those who can take massive amounts of T3 have serious thyroid

resistance, so those huge amounts of T3 DON'T send them into tachycardia.

Barb

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > DH got pre-glaucoma, and so did others on

> > > > > Val's list, but we were put on

> > > > > > > > full moderation after we mentioned it. Many

> > > > > have complained of the buddha

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > belly/weight gain, DH got a squamous cell

> > > > > skin cancer, some on the list

> > > > > > > have

> > > > > > > > developed diabetes and osteoporosis, and

> > > > > everyone complains of insomnia.

> > > > > > > > Jeffries said it was safe to take 20 mg.

> > > > > Val's group recommends much

> > > > > > > higher

> > > > > > > > doses to everyone.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Barb

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> > > > > removed]

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > --

> > > > > > Mike

> > > > > >

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