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Re: Re: T4

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When you begin taking Iodine it can temporarily inflate your TSH and I believe it was the antibodies too. It can take up to 6 months for these numbers to normalize. It is in Dr. Brownsteins book, and I loaned it to a friend so I can't quote it right now.

From: dorothyroeder <dorothyroeder@...>Subject: Re: T4iodine Date: Sunday, March 22, 2009, 8:46 AM

> The rest of the test numbers were inflated because of taking the Iodoral. What tests does iodine interfere with? Haven't heard of this before.Dorothy

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Same here regarding bowels, . I find T4 helps them more.

-Nigel

On 29 March 2011 13:42, hardasnails1973 <hardasnails1973@...> wrote:

>

>

> I cant agree more about rt3 and have been harping on this for a long time,

> but people are still playing the number game. I will call in some levoxly 50

> mcgs then split it for 6 months. I still have lingering thyroid symptoms

> that need to be addressed and erfa is not doing it. I may be able to reduce

> t3 as my t4 converts. Coudl this low t-4 even with proper t3 still be

> causing issues with constipation? I noticed the higher my t4 less the

> constipation.

>

>

>

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > hey group,

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I recently started getting dandruff. Is this hypothyroid,

> low test,

> > > > > > high

> > > > > > > > > E2, etc? Btw, I'm also losing my hair like mad.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Thanks,

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > --

> > > > > > > > > *Mike*

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

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Dr lowe told me that rt3 is very transient. Even he doesnt pay much

attention to it.

Mike

On Mar 29, 2011 12:52 PM, " Nigel " <nachonigel@...> wrote:

Same here regarding bowels, . I find T4 helps them more.

-Nigel

On 29 March 2011 13:42, hardasnails1973 <hardasnails1973@...> wrote:

>

>

> I cant agree mo...

------------------------------------

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Free's don't mean anything if your Total T4 and T3 are low.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: antanas_aradas <antanas_aradas@...>

> Subject: Re: T4

>

> Date: Wednesday, March 30, 2011, 9:58 AM

> One question about Hashimoto. Is it

> necessary to do thyroid replacement with high antibodies(and

> all hypothyroid symptoms) but normal FT4, FT3?

>

> If yes, then not all people can do replacement with T4 or

> T4/T3.

> I talking about myself. I did it with T3 and now thinking

> to move to T4/T3(erfa).

>

> Antanas

>

>

> >

> > >

> > >

> > > I cant agree mo...

> > ------------------------------------

> >

> >

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I guess you're saying that you had in-range FT4/FT3 pre thyroid treatment

and that now that you want to move to desiccated thyroid you wonder if you

must continue to take thyroid hormones, right?

-Nigel

On 30 March 2011 08:58, antanas_aradas <antanas_aradas@...> wrote:

>

>

> One question about Hashimoto. Is it necessary to do thyroid replacement

> with high antibodies(and all hypothyroid symptoms) but normal FT4, FT3?

>

> If yes, then not all people can do replacement with T4 or T4/T3.

> I talking about myself. I did it with T3 and now thinking to move to

> T4/T3(erfa).

>

> Antanas

>

>

>

> >

> > >

> > >

> > > I cant agree mo...

>

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I say Yes you can have good levels of Free's but what about Total's if your

Total's are low your Free's are just a % of the Total so if your Total is low

your taking a % of a low Total the can look like a good Free number.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: antanas_aradas <antanas_aradas@...>

> Subject: Re: T4

>

> Date: Thursday, March 31, 2011, 1:50 AM

> i had in-range(actually in the very

> top) FT4/FT3, but what i want to say - is it necessary to do

> thyroid replacement, if you have high antibodies, low basal

> temp and all symptoms of hypoT?

>

>

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > I cant agree mo...

> > >

> >

> >

> >

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You may want to recheck your thyroid. Mine was close to normal until I got

on hc. After getting on that, my levels all came down and revealed a

problem

Mike

On Mar 31, 2011 10:00 AM, " antanas_aradas " <antanas_aradas@...> wrote:

My iron is perfect.my cortisol is low, so i take 30hc, but still feel hypo.

Also take A, D vitamins and so on. I have feeling that blood is not

reliable, especially with hashi.

>

> If your FT4/FT3 are high in range, then your body makes enough thyroid. If

you're feeling hypo, yo...

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Your right labs are not a good gage for dosing when you have hashi. Read this

link if I have not posted to you before it's best to gage how your feeling with

hashi make a list of 10 things about what you feel are important about how your

feeling day to day and fill it out. Also keep track of your Temps Avg. print

out the chart in this link it will help you to tell how your feeling if your

going hypo or hyper.

http://www.thyroid-info.com/articles/woliner.htm

http://www.drrind.com/therapies/metabolic-temperature-graph

The following works if your use it. Dose by how your feeling.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: antanas_aradas <antanas_aradas@...>

> Subject: Re: T4

>

> Date: Thursday, March 31, 2011, 11:59 AM

> My iron is perfect.my cortisol is

> low, so i take 30hc, but still feel hypo. Also take A, D

> vitamins and so on. I have feeling that blood is not

> reliable, especially with hashi.

>

>

> > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I cant agree mo...

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

> > > >

> > >

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

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That happens why it's about the need of cortisol good levels to carry the

Thyroid Hormone out of your blood into your Cells. And when you went on HC meds

this happened and your blood labs showed low because the HC meds help to carry

the Thyroid out of your blood into your cells. Now you can see there is not

enough.

Co-Moderator

Phil

>

>

>

> My iron is perfect.my cortisol is low, so i take 30hc, but

> still feel hypo.

> Also take A, D vitamins and so on. I have feeling that

> blood is not

> reliable, especially with hashi.

>

>

>

>

> >

>

> > If your FT4/FT3 are high in range, then your body

> makes enough thyroid. If

> you're feeling hypo, yo...

>

>

>

>

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I read about it we have Total's some Dr.'s don't feel they need to be tested yet

in the Dr.'s desk manule it states to test Cortisol levels before putting one on

Thyroid meds. Yet most don't do this others only test TSH and dose by TSH there

are a lot of Dr.'s out there not up on doing this and should not treat people.

Some of the best info I ever got was from Dr. M

====================================================

T3 and T4 are bound to three proteins in the blood:

Thyroid Binding Globulin (also called Thyroxine-Binding Globulin, TBG)

Transthyretin

Albumin

The distribution of thyroid hormones and binding proteins are approximately:

T4: 68% to TBG, 11 % to Transthyretin, 20 % to Albumin

T3: 80 % to TBG, 9 % to Transthyretin, 11 % to Albumin

T4 has a stronger bond to TBG.

T3 has a stronger bond to Transthyretin

Both T3 and T4 have a much weaker bond (approximately 100 to 1000 x less) to

Albumin.

The thyroid hormones dynamically change between the free state and the bound

state. Since the bond to Albumin is weaker, much of what is bound to Albumin may

be free at any given moment, but won't be registered as Free T3 or Free T4. Some

portion of T3 and T4 is also free at any given moment but may not be registered

as Free T3 or Free T4.

Free T3 and Free T4 give you only a snapshot - one moment in time - of the

state. But this state varies from moment to moment.

This is why it is useful to take Total T3 and Total T4 into account to help

determine total thyroid function.

This is analogous to Testosterone. Some use " bioavailable " testosterone as a

measure of testosterone signaling activity. This would represent testosterone

that is free and testosterone that is loosely bound to albumin. However, even

tightly bound testosterone to sex-hormone binding globulin (SHBG) has signaling

functions via induced conformational changes in the SHBG molecule then binding

of testosterone-bound SHBG to SHBG receptors.

---

Thyroid hormone does not directly diffuse into cells.

Thyroid hormone is transported across cell membranes by various transporter

molecules. In the brain and in the blood brain barrier (BBB), two known

transporter molecules are Thyroid Hormone Transporter Molecule MCT8 and Organic

Anion Transporting Polypeptide OATP1C1. MCT8 is also produced in heart, kidney,

liver, and skeletal muscle.

There are two blood brain barriers: The Blood Brain Barrier Endothelial cells

that line the blood vessels of the brain and are connected to astrocytes of the

brain, and the Blood Cerebral Spinal Fluid Barrier Choroid Plexus Epithelial

Cells that connect the blood to the Cerebopinal Fluid. The Choroid Plexus

filters blood in order to produce Cerebrospinal Fluid.

From blood, T3 and T4 enter the brain via two paths:

1. T3 and T4 are transported into a BBB Endothelium Cell (via OATP). T3 and T4

are then transferred into an attached Astrocyte. In the Astrocyte, Deiodinase D2

coverts T4 to T3. T3 then exits the Astrocyte via MCT8. T3 then enters neurons

via MCT8 transporters.

2. T3 and T4 are transported into Blood Cerebral Spinal Fluid Barrier Choroid

Plexus Epithelial Cells (via MCT8). They they exit the choroid plexus (via OATP)

and enter the Cerebrospinal Fluid (CSF). From the CSF, T3 and T4 are taken up by

Tanycytes or Astrocytes. These cells have D2 Diodinase, which convert T4 to T3.

Upon exiting these cells, T3 enters neurons.

Notably, neurons have Diodinase D3 enzyme which converts T4 to reverse T3 and T3

to T2.

The presence of thyroid hormone can reduce production of OATP as part of a

negative feedback loop control.

---

Within brain cells, there are variations nuclear membrane thyroid transporters.

Usually, 90 % of the intracellular T3 is located in the cytosol and 10 % is in

the nucleus. In the pituitary gland's cells, however, 50 % of T3 is in the

nucleus.

---

Adding to the complexity of how thyroid hormone works, there is an Intracellular

T3 Binding Protein (CTPB) which is produced in high amounts in the brain and

heart, though is also widespread in production in the body.

---

Serum measurements of thyroid hormone can't be used to infer CSF concentrations.

Only a spinal tap will be able to tell what the CSF concentrations are.

---

Brain thyroid hormone levels and T3 to T4 ratios are going to be determined at

several levels.

For example, the number and types and location of thyroid transporters

determines what amount of thyroid hormone gets through.

Variations in the genes for the thyroid transporter molecules will determine how

effective they are and how selective they are for T3 or T4 transport - creating

a difference between Blood and Brain concentrations of Thyroid hormones.

Variations in Astrocyte and Tanycyte Diodinase D2 production will determine T3

to T4 conversions in the brain, which may be different from the blood.

etc.

---

From my point of view, given the differences that can arise in blood versus

brain levels of thyroid hormone and thyroid hormone conversion, it is important

to consider in some patients to not only optimize T3 but to also optimize T4

levels.

This is important, for example, in mood disorders. Here, the difference between

T3 and T4 treatment becomes apparent.

In major depressive disorder, historically, T3 is a more effective treatment

than T4 in reducing depressive symptoms. Spectulating: perhaps T4 to T3

conversion in the brain's astrocytes and tanycytes is impaired by lack of D2

Diodinase production, among other possible problems in brain thyroid hormone

metabolism.

In bipolar disorder, historically, T4 is much more effective than T3 in

stabilizing mood. T4 may be used medicinally to reach " hyperthyroid " levels -

based on TSH measurements - in psychiatry to stabilize mood in bipolar disorder.

Speculating: perhaps, in bipolar disorder, there is a gene mutation in one of

the thyroid transport molecules which selectively impairs T3 transport.

If a person is having problems with a T3 treatment or Armour Thyroid Treatment

(which is primarily a T3 treatment), then perhaps adding a T4 treatment would be

useful. Some patients benefit from combinations of thyroid treatments (e.g. T3 +

T4, Armour Thyroid + Levothyroxine) better than single treatments alone.

__________________

-

Romeo B. no, MD, physician, psychiatrist

Any information provided on www.definitivemind.com is for informational purposes

only, is not medical advice, does not create a doctor/patient relationship or

liability, is not exhaustive, does not cover all conditions or their treatment,

and will change as knowledge progresses. Always seek the advice of your

physician or other qualified health provider before undertaking any diet,

exercise, supplement, medical, or other health program.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Last edited by Drno; 08-16-2009 at 08:07 PM.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: antanas_aradas <antanas_aradas@...>

> Subject: Re: T4

>

> Date: Thursday, March 31, 2011, 12:25 PM

> Philip,have you read this or this is

> your idea?

>

> I rechecked my thyroid on hc, before thyroid meds and

> expected to see tanked ft4,ft3, but nothing have changed.

>

> Antanas

>

>

> > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I cant agree mo...

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ------------------------------------

> > >

> > >

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