Re: Re: Injectable T question

[Guest guest]

No not the same Clomid makes the brain tell the Pituitary to send more LH and

FSH to the testis. HCG acts like LH and FSH so using HCG your brain will see

the HCG like it's LH and FSH and slow down sending LH and FSH.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: marc200134470 <cfs38@...>

> Subject: Re: Injectable T question

>

> Date: Sunday, March 27, 2011, 12:55 PM

> He was trying to do what my doc is

> currently,.....see how much T your own testes can make when

> stimulated with a higher LH/FSH signal.

>

> Only difference is mine is using Clomid.

> I guess HCG and Clomid should theoretically be called

> LHRT.

> It sure is not 'replacing' testosterone by any means.

>

>

> >

> > yeah, I got it, years ago shippen had me on hcg as a

> trt.

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Some men go on Clomid Stim. test and don't feel anything yet there labs go way

up. I don't feel Clomid is good to treat low T but good for testing it.

http://www.aace.com/pub/pdf/guidelines/hypogonadism.pdf

================================================

Clomiphene Stimulation Test.—In the clomiphene

stimulation test, 100 mg of clomiphene citrate is given for

5 to 7 days as an evocative test of the hypothalamic-pituitary

axis. Clomiphene acts by interrupting the negative

feedback loop and thereby stimulating release of

gonadotropin from the pituitary. A doubling of LH and a

20 to 50% increase in FSH are normal results indicative of

an intact hypothalamic-pituitary response (13).

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: marc200134470 <cfs38@...>

> Subject: Re: Injectable T question

>

> Date: Sunday, March 27, 2011, 1:34 PM

> Sorry,...you are correct!

> That is why my doc said to try this first, and then we

> could try HCG alone. Going in steps through the chain.

>

> Clomid is for the first step in the chain.

> If my bloodwork comes back with little to no improvement I

> have to decide whether to try the HCG next, or simply jump

> in the pool per se.

>

> I really don't think the Clomid is doing anything

> IMHO,......fortunately I am having no sides though either.

>

>

>

> >

> > No not the same Clomid makes the brain tell the

> Pituitary to send more LH and FSH to the testis.  HCG

> acts like LH and FSH so using HCG your brain will see the

> HCG like it's LH and FSH and slow down sending LH and FSH.

> > Co-Moderator

> > Phil

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Marc,

I get very hot and red on my upper body and face when my Estradiol levels are

going to high. And this starts later in the day T goes down Estraidol goes up

around this time. Question do you have involuntary nocturnal erections that

appear during REM (Rapid Eye Movement) sleep. If you don't I am betting your

Estradiol E2 is on the high side doing this to you. Also low Thyroid can do

this best way to test your basel temp is this way read this link.

http://drbate.com/Ref/thyroid.html

As for your heals try the Ped Egg this cuts down the calluses down very fast so

go slow with this if you use it.

http://www.amazon.com/Pedicure-Foot-File-Colors-vary/dp/B00113FENI

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: marc200134470 <cfs38@...>

> Subject: Re: Injectable T question

>

> Date: Sunday, March 27, 2011, 3:33 PM

>

>

> Initially the doc I am seeing prescribed a very low dose of

> T3 only,.....I think it was 5mcgs in the AM. I only took it

> for a few days and quit. Even that small of a dose seemed to

> ramp my HR after the second day.

>

> Since then which was months ago, I have only been on my old

> meds per se. Cozaar for hypertension, and Nexium for GERD.

> I was NOT taking the Clomid when the thyroid panel was done

> BTW.

>

> I really have never been concerned about my glucose levels

> even though some of the docs think I am becoming

> pre-diabetic. The absolute highest AM fasting reading I ever

> had was 119, and that is no big thing. I think doing the

> PreDx test shut them up to be honest.

>

> On that front,......yes, I seem to be able to go for a LONG

> time without eating if I want to without feeling weird. Many

> times I have gone from 7AM to 8 or 9PM without eating. Now

> to be fair, I drink a bit of Gatorade type things in between

> but not a lot. I also try to not do this any longer as I am

> getting older.

>

> Personally I think the mornings that I get those readings

> are driven by cortisol and have to do with how much stress I

> have been under. That is only MY opinion.

>

> Nothing weird with my nails at this point, nor my hair and

> eyebrows. Granted my hair is thinning some, but I am almost

> 50 years old and most males in my line were half bald at

> this age. Probably due to my low T and low DHT. My heels are

> certainly NOT smooth, but I always figured it is due to how

> long I am on my feet per day. Also I am not a female model

> that uses all kinds of products on my skin. LOL

>

> I still have issues with my BP and HR though. It can be

> fine one minute, and then change dramatically in a short

> period of time. Nothing in a huge 'danger' zone though.

>

> My face is neither gaunt nor fat, at least to me, but I

> have problems gaining any weight at all. My weight seems to

> have stabilized at about 170 pounds, but I used to weigh

> about 190 and was comfortable with that. I am 5' 11 " at this

> point. My doc says it is muscle loss and probably bone loss

> starting as well due to my low T. My legs are where I notice

> it the most,......I have lost 20% or more of muscle from

> what I see. They seem like sticks to me.

>

> My entire body seems like it is aching, and when I try to

> exercise I pay for it for days in terms of pain. Once again

> the explanation is low T from the docs. My bones hurt and

> pop/crack much more than before.

>

> Last note is no skin issues that have not been a result of

> sun damage from living almost 50 years in the sun. Certainly

> none like you asked about. Also my basal ORAL temp seems to

> be running lower during the day recently. I used to be 98.6

> or above,.....now at times I will get 97.8 to 98.3 on

> occasion but I feel like I am on fire.

>

> This leads me to the last 'interesting' issue that happens

> to me almost every night.

> Somewhere between 5:30 and 7:00PM I will turn red in the

> face, neck, and ears,.......sometimes even my upper chest

> and upper arms. I feel like I am roasting alive, but my feet

> and hands might feel cold at the same time. This can last

> for hours at times, and then it is like it all drains out of

> me and I return to normal. During this time my HR goes up

> into the 90 to 110 range just setting and trying to cool

> off.

>

> Doc says it is my low T reaching the lowest point of the

> day, and that he had the same symptoms.

> I sure hope he is right, because all of this stuff combined

> is sucking the life out of me quick.

>

> Thanks much for the time that ALL of you folks devote to

> trying to help other people. Sorry for yet another novel!

> )

>

>

> >

> > Marc, were you taking T3 at the time these labs were

> done?  Or any meds?  I thought your doc had

> started you on T3.  Anyway, your labs are at the base

> of what no calls optimal.  For example, he says

> 8-12 on Total T4 and you're at 8.1, so you'd have room to go

> a little higher.  He says 1.2 minimum on FT4 all the

> way to the top of 1.8, so same thing there.  Total T3

> is a little low, he likes 130+.  So at this point I'd

> ask how you look and feel.  Temp, BP, heart rate, over

> or underweight, face gaunt or fat, any dark pigmentation

> like on your gums or under your arms, crotch area? 

> Hypoglycemic at all or can you go hours without food? 

> Are your heels rough or smooth, full head of hair and

> eyebrows?  Half-moons at the base of all your

> fingernails?

> >

> > Your glucose numbers are NOT diabetic.  Some

> people test in the upper 100s.  I don't think you need

> to worry about that.  But I would add some protein to

> your breakfast like an egg.

> >

> > Barb

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Well it's about Estraidol if your SHBG is low like mine 20 to 22 you need to

keep your Estradiol even lower then 20 pg/ml this is why I tell men to stay on

what they are taking to lower E2 levels until the lose wood from going to low.

Once you lose your night time wood stop what your taking until your wood comes

back that morning go back on what your taking but cut the dose or the days.

This is how you know your at your best levels.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: marc200134470 <cfs38@...>

> Subject: Re: Injectable T question

>

> Date: Monday, March 28, 2011, 12:00 PM

> Phil,....I was hoping the hot, red

> stuff was E2 as well!

> Evidently it wasn't, or at least not that alone. Mine went

> from 52 to 24 and I still get the same thing. Maybe I need

> it even lower, or maybe it is my low T like the doc

> says,....I don't know at this point.

>

> I never lost my nocturnal wood totally even when my E2 was

> high. It became sporadic more or less, and at times I would

> go a few days without noticing it.

>

> Since the E2 dropped, it is back virtually every night, and

> the past couple of days since taking the Clomid, it is quite

> a lot stronger. Last couple of days I almost couldn't go

> back to sleep as it didn't want to go away!

>

> My thyroid appears ALMOST perfect, so I don't see how my

> thyroid could be causing any of my symptoms. Whatever it is

> only happens during that same time frame every

> evening,......very strange needless to say!

>

>

> >

> > Marc,

> >

> > I get very hot and red on my upper body and face when

> my Estradiol levels are going to high.  And this starts

> later in the day T goes down Estraidol goes up around this

> time.  Question do you have  involuntary nocturnal

> erections that appear during REM (Rapid Eye Movement)

> sleep.  If you don't I am betting your Estradiol E2 is

> on the high side doing this to you.  Also low Thyroid

> can do this best way to test your basel temp is this way

> read this link.

> > http://drbate.com/Ref/thyroid.html

> >

> > As for your heals try the Ped Egg this cuts down the

> calluses down very fast so go slow with this if you use it.

> > http://www.amazon.com/Pedicure-Foot-File-Colors-vary/dp/B00113FENI

>

> > Co-Moderator

> > Phil

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Being this low for SHBG can be high suger problems.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: marc200134470 <cfs38@...>

> Subject: Re: Injectable T question

>

> Date: Monday, March 28, 2011, 1:08 PM

> Your SHBG is high compared to

> mine!!!!!!

> Mine is 12, and once again nobody can figure out why.

>

> Maybe I will take another couple doses of arimidex.

>

>

> >

> > Well it's about Estraidol if your SHBG is low like

> mine 20 to 22 you need to keep your Estradiol even lower

> then 20 pg/ml this is why I tell men to stay on what they

> are taking to lower E2 levels until the lose wood from going

> to low.  Once you lose your night time wood stop what

> your taking until your wood comes back that morning go back

> on what your taking but cut the dose or the days.  This

> is how you know your at your best levels.

> > Co-Moderator

> > Phil

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

I got this from Dr. no here are some cut and pastes.

From.

===================================================

#3

Drno

Physician, Psychiatrist

Join Date: Mar 2009

Location: Carmel, California

Posts: 611 Re: Lowering SHBG

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I respect what Phil is doing for himself.

However, I generally want to maintain SHBG (sex-hormone binding globulin) since

it prolongs the duration of action of testosterone. Most of the time, I find

SHBG too low rather than too high.

Testosterone, itself, will drive SHBG down.

Estrogen will increase SHBG. Thus controlling estradiol will lower SHBG.

Insulin also will drive SHBG down. Insulin has the strongest effect on SHBG,

compared to any other factor.

Low SHBG is a good sign that a person has insulin resistance or diabetes - with

lowers testosterone production. Insulin resistance or diabetes greatly increases

the risk for cardiovascular disease.

__________________

-

Romeo B. no, MD, physician, psychiatrist

Any information provided on www.definitivemind.com is for informational purposes

only, is not medical advice, does not create a doctor/patient relationship or

liability, is not exhaustive, does not cover all conditions or their treatment,

and will change as knowledge progresses. Always seek the advice of your

physician or other qualified health provider before undertaking any diet,

exercise, supplement, medical, or other health program.

---------------------------------------------------

#6

Drno

Physician, Psychiatrist

Join Date: Mar 2009

Location: Carmel, California

Posts: 611 Re: Lowering SHBG

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackJack

Dr. M from your experience where do you usually like to see SHBG ?

The amount of SHBG that does not indicate pre-diabetes or diabetes (i.e. a low

level).

Realize that SHBG is determined by multiple hormones: Estrogen, Progesterone,

Thyroid hormone, Testosterone, DHEA, Growth Hormone, Insulin, etc.

Thus, whatever SHBG one has - outside of a low level, for which problems with

insulin need to be assess, does not tell if something is wrong since the effects

of these hormones may cancel each other out.

Thus, a specific SHBG, outside of diabetes, does not tell much about what is

happening with a person.

I generally do not like driving SHBG too low since testosterone and estrogen

won't last long in the body.

__________________

-

Romeo B. no, MD, physician, psychiatrist

Any information provided on www.definitivemind.com is for informational purposes

only, is not medical advice, does not create a doctor/patient relationship or

liability, is not exhaustive, does not cover all conditions or their treatment,

and will change as knowledge progresses. Always seek the advice of your

physician or other qualified health provider before undertaking any diet,

exercise, supplement, medical, or other health program.

===============================================

#9

Drno

Physician, Psychiatrist

Join Date: Mar 2009

Location: Carmel, California

Posts: 611 Re: Lowering SHBG

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by hardasnails1973

The lower the shbg the more likely the testosterone is to linker around the body

vs higher shbg would tend to burn up faster.

The lower the SHBG, the more likely testosterone level is going to be low since

free testosterone has a half-life of only 10 to 100 minutes.

Without SHBG, nearly all testosterone (unless it is continuously produced) would

be gone from the body in less than about 50 minutes to 8 hours, being destroyed

by degradative enzymes, such as by those in the liver.

SHBG makes testosterone last longer.

The higher the SHBG, the lower the dose of testosterone is needed in treatment.

Insulin, by reducing SHBG, contributes to hypogonadism in diabetes.

__________________

-

Romeo B. no, MD, physician, psychiatrist

Any information provided on www.definitivemind.com is for informational purposes

only, is not medical advice, does not create a doctor/patient relationship or

liability, is not exhaustive, does not cover all conditions or their treatment,

and will change as knowledge progresses. Always seek the advice of your

physician or other qualified health provider before undertaking any diet,

exercise, supplement, medical, or other health program.

==================================================

Physician, Psychiatrist

Join Date: Mar 2009

Location: Carmel, California

Posts: 611 Re: Lowering SHBG

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by hardasnails1973

That is extremely interesting because every one has been concerned about lower

shbg to help increase bio T, but the lower the shbg the faster more frequent one

will need T. So these people with lower shbg will result better more frequent

shots. Higher the SHBG the more likely testosterone lingers around and is usable

to the body. If that is true then higher shbg would be more likely to be more

anabolic then having lower shbg. Please correct me if I am wrong in my thinking.

To summerize higher shbg the more the testosterone functions in the body. The

lower shbg the more the body will burn it up. Does this also imply to estrodial

as well?

Yes.

The higher the SHBG, the longer testosterone functions in the body.

The lower the SHBG, the shorter testosterone functions in the body.

This applies to estradiol also.

The lower the SHBG, the more frequent testosterone dosing needs to be done to

maintain a given testosterone level. The lower the SHBG, the more rollercoaster

a person's experience with testosterone.

__________________

-

Romeo B. no, MD, physician, psychiatrist

Any information provided on www.definitivemind.com is for informational purposes

only, is not medical advice, does not create a doctor/patient relationship or

liability, is not exhaustive, does not cover all conditions or their treatment,

and will change as knowledge progresses. Always seek the advice of your

physician or other qualified health provider before undertaking any diet,

exercise, supplement, medical, or other health program.

===================================================

#23

Drno

Physician, Psychiatrist

Join Date: Mar 2009

Location: Carmel, California

Posts: 611 SHGB

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by InvestmentBanker

I am confused because I am told that my high SHBG is NOT good either. Is Dr. M

saying anything not considered low is okay? Mine hovers in the mid to high 60's

(nmol/L). What I did notice is when I took Danazol to drive it down my Total T

went way down as well. When I got SHBG down 50% to around 30 nmol/L my Total T

went down 65% to around 400 ng/dL. Why is that?

SHGB (Sex Hormone Binding Globulin):

Let's look at what influences SHBG:

Increases SHBG:

Estrogens (particularly Estradiol)

Progesterone (by increasing Estrogen receptors)

Thyroid Hormone (particularly Hyperthyroidism)

Liver Disease

Anorexia, Starvation

Hypoglycemia (low insulin)

Reduces SHBG:

Insulin (and insulin resistance)

Testosterone

Growth Hormone

DHEA

Other Androgens

Obesity

Hypothyroidism

Excessive Cortisol (Cushing's Syndrome or Disease)

Progestins (such as by blocking progesterone's effects)

Excessively high SHBG may indicate factors increasing SHBG may be in excess in

thus should be addressed. For example, an excess of Estrogen to testosterone may

result in high SHBG.

Since SHBG is determined by several hormones, it is not generally a good

component to address directly. Rather the influences affecting SHBG should be

addressed independently of SHBG.

Testosterone replacement alone will drive down SHBG. Low SHBG, high free

testosterone but LOW total testosterone is common in diabetes.

From my point of view, overly focusing on SHBG when trying to improve libido

once total testosterone is raised to at least 650 ng/dL is a fairly narrow point

of view.

Free Testosterone is only a fraction of Testosterone signaling. Free

Testosterone too often does not determine libido.

One can use Bioavailable Testosterone as a measure of testosterone's signaling

strength. I, myself, consider total testosterone more important. Testosterone

which isn't free - but is bound to SHBG - also has signaling function on SHBG

receptors. To take this function into account, I use total testosterone as a

clearer measure of testosterone signaling.

If one focuses on the factors that determine SHBG and focus on optimizing them

or treating the disease condition involved, then one hardly needs to measure

SHBG at all.

High or low, SHBG indicates something is wrong but does not tell you what is

wrong. Thus, alone, it is not a useful measure.

SHBG within the reference range also doesn't tell if something is wrong. Factors

that influence SHBG can cancel each other out, thus SHBG will be in the

reference range.

Thus, one still has to optimize each factor that influences SHBG separately.

As a result of these considerations, SHBG is a minor player. I would look at the

other issues that influence SHBG instead in their own right as more important

considerations.

----------

DANAZOL:

Danazol is an androgen which lowers LH (Luteinizing hormone) and FSH (Follicle

Stimulating Hormone) production. It is used in the treatment of endometriosis by

driving estrogen production downwards. It is also indicated for fibrocystic

breast disease and hereditary angioedema. Obviously, as an androgen, it can

lower SHBG. Lowering SHGB and lowering LH would both reduce total testosterone.

I would not use Danazol in a man or woman for that matter. There are better

options for Fibrocystic breast disease (e.g. iodine) and endometriosis. However,

its use in hereditary angioedema may have utility.

__________________

-

Romeo B. no, MD, physician, psychiatrist

Any information provided on www.definitivemind.com is for informational purposes

only, is not medical advice, does not create a doctor/patient relationship or

liability, is not exhaustive, does not cover all conditions or their treatment,

and will change as knowledge progresses. Always seek the advice of your

physician or other qualified health provider before undertaking any diet,

exercise, supplement, medical, or other health program.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: marc200134470 <cfs38@...>

> Subject: Re: Injectable T question

>

> Date: Monday, March 28, 2011, 2:30 PM

> Phil,.....see above for the

> discussion with Barb.

> I do NOT have any blood sugar problems at all.

>

> Don't know what is causing it, but it isn't glucose

> levels.

>

>

> >

> > Being this low for SHBG can be high suger problems.

> > Co-Moderator

> > Phil

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

High Cortisol levels if not real high is not so bad during the day. But at

night they will keep you from sleeping and this is very bad you can take this to

keep levels down at night.

In early stages of adrenal fatigue cortisol levels tend to rise and if they are

high at midnight they can energise you and keep you awake. Phosphorylated serine

can be used to lower cortisol at these times due to its ACTH dampening effect

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: marc200134470 <cfs38@...>

> Subject: Re: Injectable T question

>

> Date: Monday, March 28, 2011, 3:08 PM

> Very informative read.

> Out of that all I can see as a possibility is my higher

> than normal cortisol levels. They follow curve, but are

> slightly high.

>

> I am not trying to argue or dispute anything with the folks

> here that know far more than I do,....I am simply relating

> the results of the MANY tests I have had done.

>

> I do NOT appear to have any thyroid issue short of some

> tweaking to become a model per se. Also as before,....I do

> not have glucose issues nor insulin resistance. I will

> repeat again that my insulin levels test lower normal, not

> high.

>

> When a person is resistive to insulin they tend to have

> higher levels as I am sure you all know.

>

> Anyway, I think some of my problems involve cortisol, as in

> too much. There is little that can be done about that as far

> as I know. If I am wrong,.....inform me.

>

>

> >

> > I got this from Dr. no here are some cut and

> pastes.

> > From.

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

If you sleep good you don't need it or the pills.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: marc200134470 <cfs38@...>

> Subject: Re: Injectable T question

>

> Date: Monday, March 28, 2011, 3:34 PM

> Thanks Phil,.....I have already tried

> a cream that contains Phosphatidylserine that is meant to be

> absorbed. I guess it didn't do anything for me, or I should

> say I didn't feel anything different.

>

> I wonder if an oral supplement might have more of an

> impact?

>

> Probably should have my cortisol checked again, but the

> weird thing is when a certain time of night comes,......I

> have no issue sleeping whatsoever.

>

> I probably have some type of issue that has never been

> observed before with my luck. LOL

> I thank all for the ideas to pursue.

>

>

> >

> > High Cortisol levels if not real high is not so bad

> during the day.  But at night they will keep you from

> sleeping and this is very bad you can take this to keep

> levels down at night.

> > In early stages of adrenal fatigue cortisol levels

> tend to rise and if they are high at midnight they can

> energise you and keep you awake. Phosphorylated serine can

> be used to lower cortisol at these times due to its ACTH

> dampening effect

> > Co-Moderator

> > Phil

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>