Guest guest Posted March 26, 2011 Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 Marc, It's OK to ask Questions we can answer faster then you can research it. 1.) Yes if your Dr. can get it with chrysin in it it will help keep down your Estraidol levels. But the only problem I have about adding other things to gels or creams. Is what if your Estrraidol levels fall to low your using this everyday now what. 2.) Test C is about the best if you have a reaction to the Oil in it then try the other ones. In this link are all the kinds of TRT and shots also how to start on TRT it's for women becoming men but still dam good full of good info. http://www.ftmguide.org/ttypes.html#cypionate Men start on 100 mgs / week never let a Dr. put you on them more then every week. Doing shots every 2 to 4 weeks is very old. Don't get stuck on a lab number go by how your feeling if you don't feel good at 600 - 700 go up into the 800 - 900's it's not about the number it's about how your feeling. 3.) The potential adverse effects most of us don't have them but you need labs to keep on top of your blood levels to see if they are getting to thick. Yes testosterone is good for your heart but some of us hold water. I did from day one so I take a water pill every 3 days not a big deal. Keeping Estradiol down and taking a water pill every now and them helps keep your BP good and your heat rate. 4.) Men doing shots once a week do 250 IU's of HCG the 2 days each before there next shot. On shots 2x's a week or every 3 days do the 250 IU's shot the day before your next Test C shot. On gel or creams do 250 IU's every 3 days. Co-Moderator Phil > From: marc200134470 <cfs38@...> > Subject: Injectable T question > > Date: Saturday, March 26, 2011, 12:48 PM > I will be getting blood drawn Monday > AM to see if this Clomid stuff did anything. Thought I was > feeling something the other day but I guess not as it left > and I still feel the same,......yes, I know only the blood > test will show for sure. > > Anyway I am planning ahead with the assumption I will be > starting TRT very soon. > I know Phil says to try the compounded gel first, and I > surely will. First on the gel,.....has anyone heard of it > being compounded with chrysin in the mix? > This is what my doc does I believe. > > Second, if I end up on shots, how many different forms of > testosterone are there, and what should I be getting? I hear > you guys mainly talk about testC mostly. > Any idea of how much I should take, and how often? > I am currently in the low 200's for total T, and an SHBG of > 12. I am only trying to get in the 600 to 700 range, not > 1100 like my doc keeps himself. > > Been doing some reading and some of the potential adverse > effects are surprising to me. > I read about water retention, along with sodium, potassium, > chloride, and calcium retention. Also anxiety and depression > is mentioned, as well as increased lipid levels, along with > gynecomastia. Also read that it may increase blood pressure > and heart rate as well. I am mainly concerned about the BP > and heart rate issue as I already have problems there. Funny > thing is my Cardiologist wants me on this stuff, or for it > to be straightened out ASAP. > > What the heck! > I thought it was good for your heart and your lipid > profile, plus how can a male hormone cause 'man boobs' > unless it is through conversion to E2? > > Last question,.....regardless of gel or shots, what dosage > of HCG is used to try and avoid complete shutdown of the > testes and preventing atrophy? > I realize I am asking questions that have most likely been > answered hundreds of times, but I really need to apply > things to my individual situation. > > Thanks again as usual! > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2011 Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 Thanks much Phil,...the reason I ask here without researching is you and many others have lived this stuff for years. I put a lot of faith in that simple fact. I understand what you are saying about adding an AI, even though herbal, to a compunded gel. This is what he does I guess, but I am sure I can tell him I don't want it added until I see what happens with my E2 levels. My E2 went from 52 to 24 with a very small run of generic Arimidex. I took .5 twice a week for a month only. I have a refill of 8 more pills in the cabinet if I need them in the future. When it comes to shots, my doc believes in once a week done SubQ. I presume Test C is OK for that? I wish I would have asked him what form he was talking about letting me inject, but I will get another chance shortly. Where I must have misunderstood him is in terms of the HCG issue. I thought he said I would use HCG only once every 4 to 6 weeks? Sounds like I am wrong, or he believes something totally different. I was holding fluid a lot more when my E2 was up there. As it came down most of that ended, and I don't spend half the evening taking a whizz anymore. Does the fluid holding come from the testosterone, or from high E2 caused in some folks from TRT? I still hold out a small amount of hope that I may avoid TRT but I think the odds are against me. I simply have to do something to get myself to feeling better again. As always, thanks for your help! > > Marc, > > It's OK to ask Questions we can answer faster then you can research it. > > 1.) Yes if your Dr. can get it with chrysin in it it will help keep down your Estraidol levels. But the only problem I have about adding other things to gels or creams. Is what if your Estrraidol levels fall to low your using this everyday now what. > > 2.) Test C is about the best if you have a reaction to the Oil in it then try the other ones. > In this link are all the kinds of TRT and shots also how to start on TRT it's for women becoming men but still dam good full of good info. > http://www.ftmguide.org/ttypes.html#cypionate > Men start on 100 mgs / week never let a Dr. put you on them more then every week. Doing shots every 2 to 4 weeks is very old. Don't get stuck on a lab number go by how your feeling if you don't feel good at 600 - 700 go up into the 800 - 900's it's not about the number it's about how your feeling. > > 3.) The potential adverse effects most of us don't have them but you need labs to keep on top of your blood levels to see if they are getting to thick. Yes testosterone is good for your heart but some of us hold water. I did from day one so I take a water pill every 3 days not a big deal. Keeping Estradiol down and taking a water pill every now and them helps keep your BP good and your heat rate. > > 4.) Men doing shots once a week do 250 IU's of HCG the 2 days each before there next shot. On shots 2x's a week or every 3 days do the 250 IU's shot the day before your next Test C shot. > > On gel or creams do 250 IU's every 3 days. > Co-Moderator > Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2011 Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 Hi Marc, don't know if you were around when I introduced my website, but some of the references on the bottom of this page might be relevant to your research. They talk about how thyroid, SHBG, and testosterone are all inter-related. And of course there are many more pages and references about the thyroid, if you're interested! http://tiredthyroid.com/mens-hormones.html Barb > > I will be getting blood drawn Monday AM to see if this Clomid stuff did anything. Thought I was feeling something the other day but I guess not as it left and I still feel the same,......yes, I know only the blood test will show for sure. > > Anyway I am planning ahead with the assumption I will be starting TRT very soon. > I know Phil says to try the compounded gel first, and I surely will. First on the gel,.....has anyone heard of it being compounded with chrysin in the mix? > This is what my doc does I believe. > > Second, if I end up on shots, how many different forms of testosterone are there, and what should I be getting? I hear you guys mainly talk about testC mostly. > Any idea of how much I should take, and how often? > I am currently in the low 200's for total T, and an SHBG of 12. I am only trying to get in the 600 to 700 range, not 1100 like my doc keeps himself. > > Been doing some reading and some of the potential adverse effects are surprising to me. > I read about water retention, along with sodium, potassium, chloride, and calcium retention. Also anxiety and depression is mentioned, as well as increased lipid levels, along with gynecomastia. Also read that it may increase blood pressure and heart rate as well. I am mainly concerned about the BP and heart rate issue as I already have problems there. Funny thing is my Cardiologist wants me on this stuff, or for it to be straightened out ASAP. > > What the heck! > I thought it was good for your heart and your lipid profile, plus how can a male hormone cause 'man boobs' unless it is through conversion to E2? > > Last question,.....regardless of gel or shots, what dosage of HCG is used to try and avoid complete shutdown of the testes and preventing atrophy? > I realize I am asking questions that have most likely been answered hundreds of times, but I really need to apply things to my individual situation. > > Thanks again as usual! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2011 Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 Some men hold water from TRT and as Estraidol goes up they can hold even more water. HCG is not done like that for TRT your trying to replace the LH and FSH message that gets shut off going on TRT. As your brain sees the T in your blood it stops sending the LH message. HCG act like the LH message and the Half life one only needs about 250 IU's to 500 IU's 2x's per week to keep LH cells working. Co-Moderator Phil > From: marc200134470 <cfs38@...> > Subject: Re: Injectable T question > > Date: Saturday, March 26, 2011, 2:21 PM > Thanks much Phil,...the reason I ask > here without researching is you and many others have lived > this stuff for years. I put a lot of faith in that simple > fact. > > I understand what you are saying about adding an AI, even > though herbal, to a compunded gel. This is what he does I > guess, but I am sure I can tell him I don't want it added > until I see what happens with my E2 levels. > My E2 went from 52 to 24 with a very small run of generic > Arimidex. I took .5 twice a week for a month only. I have a > refill of 8 more pills in the cabinet if I need them in the > future. > > When it comes to shots, my doc believes in once a week done > SubQ. I presume Test C is OK for that? I wish I would have > asked him what form he was talking about letting me inject, > but I will get another chance shortly. > > Where I must have misunderstood him is in terms of the HCG > issue. I thought he said I would use HCG only once every 4 > to 6 weeks? Sounds like I am wrong, or he believes something > totally different. > > I was holding fluid a lot more when my E2 was up there. As > it came down most of that ended, and I don't spend half the > evening taking a whizz anymore. > Does the fluid holding come from the testosterone, or from > high E2 caused in some folks from TRT? > > I still hold out a small amount of hope that I may avoid > TRT but I think the odds are against me. I simply have to do > something to get myself to feeling better again. > As always, thanks for your help! > > > > > > Marc, > > > > It's OK to ask Questions we can answer faster then you > can research it. > > > > 1.) Yes if your Dr. can get it with chrysin in it it > will help keep down your Estraidol levels. But the > only problem I have about adding other things to gels or > creams. Is what if your Estrraidol levels fall to low > your using this everyday now what. > > > > 2.) Test C is about the best if you have a reaction to > the Oil in it then try the other ones. > > In this link are all the kinds of TRT and shots also > how to start on TRT it's for women becoming men but still > dam good full of good info. > > http://www.ftmguide.org/ttypes.html#cypionate > > Men start on 100 mgs / week never let a Dr. put you on > them more then every week. Doing shots every 2 to 4 > weeks is very old. Don't get stuck on a lab number go > by how your feeling if you don't feel good at 600 - 700 go > up into the 800 - 900's it's not about the number it's about > how your feeling. > > > > 3.) The potential adverse effects most of us don't > have them but you need labs to keep on top of your blood > levels to see if they are getting to thick. Yes > testosterone is good for your heart but some of us hold > water. I did from day one so I take a water pill every > 3 days not a big deal. Keeping Estradiol down and > taking a water pill every now and them helps keep your BP > good and your heat rate. > > > > 4.) Men doing shots once a week do 250 IU's of HCG the > 2 days each before there next shot. On shots 2x's a > week or every 3 days do the 250 IU's shot the day before > your next Test C shot. > > > > On gel or creams do 250 IU's every 3 days. > > Co-Moderator > > Phil > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2011 Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 Barb,....I knew nothing about this. Looks like a great site and I will read more of it over the upcoming days. I am a confusing case to say the least. Previously you had said I was slightly hypo while having symptoms of being hyper. I was not 'optimal' in 2 results IIRC. Since then I have had the whole thyroid testing deal done again. At that one point anyway, my doc said that my thyroid panel was as close to perfect as one could get. I would have to find it to list exact numbers, but it was good. I have been tested all kinds of ways for pre-diabetes and the like. I come out fine even though about 1 in 3 times my AM fasting level will be slightly high. I have checked myself until I am blue in the face, including post prandial readings which are usually in the range of 91 to 112. My cortisol levels tend to run high, but they follow the curve per se and all of the docs claim it is due to the stress of the past year and a half or more of feeling like death on two legs. I really don't know where to go next if TRT doesn't help me feel better. I am having some BW done next week to look for AI disease, and I am going to see a Neurologist as well. I had all the HH tests, and they were negative,......plus my ferritin dropped from the 500's to the 300's to the 144 level by 2/9/11. I dno't know if you recall that or not. I am due to be tested again in May. My lipids are great, and I even had a CT scan done of my liver. No sign of any issues, and my liver function BW is fine as well. Short of continuing low range B-12, and Vitamin-D in the deficient range, the only thing that shows up on me are the weird hormone levels at this point. I really wish I could figure out what the problem truly was, and where it originates from. Glad you are well, and good luck with your new site! > > Hi Marc, don't know if you were around when I introduced my website, but some of the references on the bottom of this page might be relevant to your research. They talk about how thyroid, SHBG, and testosterone are all inter-related. And of course there are many more pages and references about the thyroid, if you're interested! > > http://tiredthyroid.com/mens-hormones.html > > Barb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2011 Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 I am hoping I heard my doc wrong about the HCG as I didn't think it was right on the way home. I am making a note of what you said concerning dosage to take with me. This is not so much an issue of vanity, nor worry about fathering a child in the future. I simply feel like as long as my testes are producing something, that I would like to keep them functioning if possible. Secondarily I would 'prefer' to not have balls the size of small grapes like I have heard about on this board if it is possible! At this stage mine are still within normal limits leaning towards the high side according to an ultrasound I had done. > > Some men hold water from TRT and as Estraidol goes up they can hold even more water. HCG is not done like that for TRT your trying to replace the LH and FSH message that gets shut off going on TRT. As your brain sees the T in your blood it stops sending the LH message. HCG act like the LH message and the Half life one only needs about 250 IU's to 500 IU's 2x's per week to keep LH cells working. > Co-Moderator > Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2011 Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 Show your Dr. this post I got from Dr. to help me get my Dr. to let me use HCG. ================================================== He probably feels that since you suffer primary hypogonadism (I am guessing) there is no use in adding HCG to your protocol. There are several reasons why this is not so. First, you have not lost all Leydig cells, so any HCG you take will stimulate those who still function to produce endogenous testosterone. This will support testicular size. We should not ignore this aesthetic consideration. Next, if he reads my work, he will learn that HPTA-suppressed (as all TRT patients are to some extent) also suffer decreased pregenenolone levels, which is the first step after CHOL in all three hormonal pathways which begin with CHOL. HCG increases pregnenolone production, and therefore restores a more natural balance of our hormones. Next, nearly all TRT patients who add in HCG to their regimens report an increased sense of well-being and also libido. These are genuine quality of life issues. Finally, I just instinctively do not want all those LH receptors (including those we have yet to discover and appreciate) unstimulated. Co-Moderator Phil > From: marc200134470 <cfs38@...> > Subject: Re: Injectable T question > > Date: Saturday, March 26, 2011, 3:26 PM > > > I am hoping I heard my doc wrong about the HCG as I didn't > think it was right on the way home. > > I am making a note of what you said concerning dosage to > take with me. This is not so much an issue of vanity, nor > worry about fathering a child in the future. I simply feel > like as long as my testes are producing something, that I > would like to keep them functioning if possible. > > Secondarily I would 'prefer' to not have balls the size of > small grapes like I have heard about on this board if it is > possible! At this stage mine are still within normal limits > leaning towards the high side according to an ultrasound I > had done. > > > > > > Some men hold water from TRT and as Estraidol goes up > they can hold even more water. HCG is not done like > that for TRT your trying to replace the LH and FSH message > that gets shut off going on TRT. As your brain sees > the T in your blood it stops sending the LH message. > HCG act like the LH message and the Half life one only needs > about 250 IU's to 500 IU's 2x's per week to keep LH cells > working. > > Co-Moderator > > Phil > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2011 Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 " marc200134470 " <cfs38@...> wrote: >my doc said that my thyroid panel was as close to perfect as one could get. I would have to find it to list exact numbers, but it was good. I'm hoping this statement wasn't based on a " great " TSH! > I have been tested all kinds of ways for pre-diabetes and the like. I come out fine even though about 1 in 3 times my AM fasting level will be slightly high. Slightly high fasting glucose is also a sign of low thyroid. Not true diabetes, just slow processing. If you could wait till noon without eating and retest, numbers might come down. > My cortisol levels tend to run high, but they follow the curve per se and all of the docs claim it is due to the stress of the past year and a half or more of feeling like death on two legs. Cortisol can go high to compensate for low thyroid. > I had all the HH tests, and they were negative,......plus my ferritin dropped from the 500's to the 300's to the 144 level by 2/9/11. I dno't know if you recall that or not. I am due to be tested again in May. No, I did not know your ferritin normalized. That is GOOD news! > My lipids are great, and I even had a CT scan done of my liver. No sign of any issues, and my liver function BW is fine as well. > Short of continuing low range B-12, and Vitamin-D in the deficient range, the only thing that shows up on me are the weird hormone levels at this point. > I really wish I could figure out what the problem truly was, and where it originates from. If you do find out, please post to let us know. > Glad you are well, and good luck with your new site! Thanks! > > > > > Hi Marc, don't know if you were around when I introduced my website, but some of the references on the bottom of this page might be relevant to your research. They talk about how thyroid, SHBG, and testosterone are all inter-related. And of course there are many more pages and references about the thyroid, if you're interested! > > > > http://tiredthyroid.com/mens-hormones.html > > > > Barb > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2011 Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 don't u mean to keep leydig cells working? hcg won't help with lh > From: marc200134470 <cfs38@...> > Subject: Re: Injectable T question > > Date: Saturday, March 26, 2011, 2:21 PM > Thanks much Phil,...the reason I ask > here without researching is you and many others have lived > this stuff for years. I put a lot of faith in that simple > fact. > > I understand what you are saying about adding an AI, even > though herbal, to a compunded gel. This is what he does I > guess, but I am sure I can tell him I don't want it added > until I see what happens with my E2 levels. > My E2 went from 52 to 24 with a very small run of generic > Arimidex. I took .5 twice a week for a month only. I have a > refill of 8 more pills in the cabinet if I need them in the > future. > > When it comes to shots, my doc believes in once a week done > SubQ. I presume Test C is OK for that? I wish I would have > asked him what form he was talking about letting me inject, > but I will get another chance shortly. > > Where I must have misunderstood him is in terms of the HCG > issue. I thought he said I would use HCG only once every 4 > to 6 weeks? Sounds like I am wrong, or he believes something > totally different. > > I was holding fluid a lot more when my E2 was up there. As > it came down most of that ended, and I don't spend half the > evening taking a whizz anymore. > Does the fluid holding come from the testosterone, or from > high E2 caused in some folks from TRT? > > I still hold out a small amount of hope that I may avoid > TRT but I think the odds are against me. I simply have to do > something to get myself to feeling better again. > As always, thanks for your help! > > > > > > Marc, > > > > It's OK to ask Questions we can answer faster then you > can research it. > > > > 1.) Yes if your Dr. can get it with chrysin in it it > will help keep down your Estraidol levels. But the > only problem I have about adding other things to gels or > creams. Is what if your Estrraidol levels fall to low > your using this everyday now what. > > > > 2.) Test C is about the best if you have a reaction to > the Oil in it then try the other ones. > > In this link are all the kinds of TRT and shots also > how to start on TRT it's for women becoming men but still > dam good full of good info. > > http://www.ftmguide.org/ttypes.html#cypionate > > Men start on 100 mgs / week never let a Dr. put you on > them more then every week. Doing shots every 2 to 4 > weeks is very old. Don't get stuck on a lab number go > by how your feeling if you don't feel good at 600 - 700 go > up into the 800 - 900's it's not about the number it's about > how your feeling. > > > > 3.) The potential adverse effects most of us don't > have them but you need labs to keep on top of your blood > levels to see if they are getting to thick. Yes > testosterone is good for your heart but some of us hold > water. I did from day one so I take a water pill every > 3 days not a big deal. Keeping Estradiol down and > taking a water pill every now and them helps keep your BP > good and your heat rate. > > > > 4.) Men doing shots once a week do 250 IU's of HCG the > 2 days each before there next shot. On shots 2x's a > week or every 3 days do the 250 IU's shot the day before > your next Test C shot. > > > > On gel or creams do 250 IU's every 3 days. > > Co-Moderator > > Phil > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2011 Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 why such a low hcg dose to avoid estorgen conversion? > From: marc200134470 <cfs38@...> > Subject: Injectable T question > > Date: Saturday, March 26, 2011, 12:48 PM > I will be getting blood drawn Monday > AM to see if this Clomid stuff did anything. Thought I was > feeling something the other day but I guess not as it left > and I still feel the same,......yes, I know only the blood > test will show for sure. > > Anyway I am planning ahead with the assumption I will be > starting TRT very soon. > I know Phil says to try the compounded gel first, and I > surely will. First on the gel,.....has anyone heard of it > being compounded with chrysin in the mix? > This is what my doc does I believe. > > Second, if I end up on shots, how many different forms of > testosterone are there, and what should I be getting? I hear > you guys mainly talk about testC mostly. > Any idea of how much I should take, and how often? > I am currently in the low 200's for total T, and an SHBG of > 12. I am only trying to get in the 600 to 700 range, not > 1100 like my doc keeps himself. > > Been doing some reading and some of the potential adverse > effects are surprising to me. > I read about water retention, along with sodium, potassium, > chloride, and calcium retention. Also anxiety and depression > is mentioned, as well as increased lipid levels, along with > gynecomastia. Also read that it may increase blood pressure > and heart rate as well. I am mainly concerned about the BP > and heart rate issue as I already have problems there. Funny > thing is my Cardiologist wants me on this stuff, or for it > to be straightened out ASAP. > > What the heck! > I thought it was good for your heart and your lipid > profile, plus how can a male hormone cause 'man boobs' > unless it is through conversion to E2? > > Last question,.....regardless of gel or shots, what dosage > of HCG is used to try and avoid complete shutdown of the > testes and preventing atrophy? > I realize I am asking questions that have most likely been > answered hundreds of times, but I really need to apply > things to my individual situation. > > Thanks again as usual! > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2011 Report Share Posted March 26, 2011 subQ injections of test cyp. and how do they work? in other words what size needles is that...the same size for hcg and what dosage of test cyp. is good. From: marc200134470 <cfs38@...> Subject: Injectable T question Date: Saturday, March 26, 2011, 12:48 PM Â I will be getting blood drawn Monday AM to see if this Clomid stuff did anything. Thought I was feeling something the other day but I guess not as it left and I still feel the same,......yes, I know only the blood test will show for sure. Anyway I am planning ahead with the assumption I will be starting TRT very soon. I know Phil says to try the compounded gel first, and I surely will. First on the gel,.....has anyone heard of it being compounded with chrysin in the mix? This is what my doc does I believe. Second, if I end up on shots, how many different forms of testosterone are there, and what should I be getting? I hear you guys mainly talk about testC mostly. Any idea of how much I should take, and how often? I am currently in the low 200's for total T, and an SHBG of 12. I am only trying to get in the 600 to 700 range, not 1100 like my doc keeps himself. Been doing some reading and some of the potential adverse effects are surprising to me. I read about water retention, along with sodium, potassium, chloride, and calcium retention. Also anxiety and depression is mentioned, as well as increased lipid levels, along with gynecomastia. Also read that it may increase blood pressure and heart rate as well. I am mainly concerned about the BP and heart rate issue as I already have problems there. Funny thing is my Cardiologist wants me on this stuff, or for it to be straightened out ASAP. What the heck! I thought it was good for your heart and your lipid profile, plus how can a male hormone cause 'man boobs' unless it is through conversion to E2? Last question,.....regardless of gel or shots, what dosage of HCG is used to try and avoid complete shutdown of the testes and preventing atrophy? I realize I am asking questions that have most likely been answered hundreds of times, but I really need to apply things to my individual situation. Thanks again as usual! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 Barb, it was another complete panel,....here are the numbers. TSH - 1.01 T4 Total - 8.1 T4 Free - 1.2 (same as always) T3 Free - 3.6 T3 Total - 105 RT3 - 22 All are standard Quest scales of measure BTW. On the glucose front here is what happens on a day where my fasting level might be 110 lets say. I will get this about 1/3 of the time,.....the rest it is between 79 and 90. After taking my fasting level I have my usual breakfast. 2 cups of fresh fruit and a banana, mixed with a cup of OJ and blended as a smoothie. After that I eat a cup of Activia yogurt and either a grain bar of some sort, or half a bagel/english muffin. Roughly 900 calories give or take. Two hours later the highest I have ever recorded was 112 for a post prandial level. It stays in the mid/upper 70's to lower 80's the rest of the afternoon. After dinner which is made up of far more protein and fresh veggies, my post prandial reading will be 90 to 102. Anyway,....there are my thyroid numbers, and also what is going on with my fasting glucose. I even had that test done they call a PreDx and I came back with a below normal risk of developing diabetes within the next 5 years for what that is worth. I will try the waiting until noon idea one day that it comes up high in the AM. Also I am going to do the deal where you wake yourself at 3 AM to see if you are dropping into a hypo state which causes the liver to dump sugar and you end up high in the AM. Let me know what you think of those thyroid numbers when you get the chance to stop playing webmaster! ) > >my doc said that my thyroid panel was as close to perfect as one could get. I would have to find it to list exact numbers, but it was good. > > I'm hoping this statement wasn't based on a " great " TSH! > > > I have been tested all kinds of ways for pre-diabetes and the like. I come out fine even though about 1 in 3 times my AM fasting level will be slightly high. > > Slightly high fasting glucose is also a sign of low thyroid. Not true diabetes, just slow processing. If you could wait till noon without eating and retest, numbers might come down. > > > My cortisol levels tend to run high, but they follow the curve per se and all of the docs claim it is due to the stress of the past year and a half or more of feeling like death on two legs. > > Cortisol can go high to compensate for low thyroid. > > > I had all the HH tests, and they were negative,......plus my ferritin dropped from the 500's to the 300's to the 144 level by 2/9/11. I dno't know if you recall that or not. I am due to be tested again in May. > > No, I did not know your ferritin normalized. That is GOOD news! > > > My lipids are great, and I even had a CT scan done of my liver. No sign of any issues, and my liver function BW is fine as well. > > Short of continuing low range B-12, and Vitamin-D in the deficient range, the only thing that shows up on me are the weird hormone levels at this point. > > > I really wish I could figure out what the problem truly was, and where it originates from. > > If you do find out, please post to let us know. > > > Glad you are well, and good luck with your new site! > > Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 I don't know how to say it better when you go on TRT not HCG HCG is not TRT. Adding Testosterone to your body your brain will see this and stop sending LH and FSH to your testis and they will stop working. Doing HCG act like the LH and FSH message and acting like LH and FSH your testis make Testosteone if they can. Co-Moderator Phil > > > From: marc200134470 <cfs38@...> > > Subject: Re: Injectable T question > > > > Date: Saturday, March 26, 2011, 2:21 PM > > Thanks much Phil,...the reason I ask > > here without researching is you and many others have > lived > > this stuff for years. I put a lot of faith in that > simple > > fact. > > > > I understand what you are saying about adding an AI, > even > > though herbal, to a compunded gel. This is what he > does I > > guess, but I am sure I can tell him I don't want it > added > > until I see what happens with my E2 levels. > > My E2 went from 52 to 24 with a very small run of > generic > > Arimidex. I took .5 twice a week for a month only. I > have a > > refill of 8 more pills in the cabinet if I need them > in the > > future. > > > > When it comes to shots, my doc believes in once a week > done > > SubQ. I presume Test C is OK for that? I wish I would > have > > asked him what form he was talking about letting me > inject, > > but I will get another chance shortly. > > > > Where I must have misunderstood him is in terms of the > HCG > > issue. I thought he said I would use HCG only once > every 4 > > to 6 weeks? Sounds like I am wrong, or he believes > something > > totally different. > > > > I was holding fluid a lot more when my E2 was up > there. As > > it came down most of that ended, and I don't spend > half the > > evening taking a whizz anymore. > > Does the fluid holding come from the testosterone, or > from > > high E2 caused in some folks from TRT? > > > > I still hold out a small amount of hope that I may > avoid > > TRT but I think the odds are against me. I simply have > to do > > something to get myself to feeling better again. > > As always, thanks for your help! > > > > > > > > > > Marc, > > > > > > It's OK to ask Questions we can answer faster > then you > > can research it. > > > > > > 1.) Yes if your Dr. can get it with chrysin in it > it > > will help keep down your Estraidol levels. But the > > only problem I have about adding other things to gels > or > > creams. Is what if your Estrraidol levels fall to > low > > your using this everyday now what. > > > > > > 2.) Test C is about the best if you have a > reaction to > > the Oil in it then try the other ones. > > > In this link are all the kinds of TRT and shots > also > > how to start on TRT it's for women becoming men but > still > > dam good full of good info. > > > http://www.ftmguide.org/ttypes.html#cypionate > > > Men start on 100 mgs / week never let a Dr. put > you on > > them more then every week. Doing shots every 2 to 4 > > weeks is very old. Don't get stuck on a lab number > go > > by how your feeling if you don't feel good at 600 - > 700 go > > up into the 800 - 900's it's not about the number it's > about > > how your feeling. > > > > > > 3.) The potential adverse effects most of us > don't > > have them but you need labs to keep on top of your > blood > > levels to see if they are getting to thick. Yes > > testosterone is good for your heart but some of us > hold > > water. I did from day one so I take a water pill > every > > 3 days not a big deal. Keeping Estradiol down and > > taking a water pill every now and them helps keep your > BP > > good and your heat rate. > > > > > > 4.) Men doing shots once a week do 250 IU's of > HCG the > > 2 days each before there next shot. On shots 2x's a > > week or every 3 days do the 250 IU's shot the day > before > > your next Test C shot. > > > > > > On gel or creams do 250 IU's every 3 days. > > > Co-Moderator > > > Phil > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 Doing too much HCG can desensitize your testis to HCG and you can end up with it converting into E2 and making you Primary never do more then 500 IU's in any day. Most men doing more the 250 IU's there testis can't use it so they convert it into Estradiol. Co-Moderator Phil > > > From: marc200134470 <cfs38@...> > > Subject: Injectable T question > > > > Date: Saturday, March 26, 2011, 12:48 PM > > I will be getting blood drawn Monday > > AM to see if this Clomid stuff did anything. Thought I > was > > feeling something the other day but I guess not as it > left > > and I still feel the same,......yes, I know only the > blood > > test will show for sure. > > > > Anyway I am planning ahead with the assumption I will > be > > starting TRT very soon. > > I know Phil says to try the compounded gel first, and > I > > surely will. First on the gel,.....has anyone heard of > it > > being compounded with chrysin in the mix? > > This is what my doc does I believe. > > > > Second, if I end up on shots, how many different forms > of > > testosterone are there, and what should I be getting? > I hear > > you guys mainly talk about testC mostly. > > Any idea of how much I should take, and how often? > > I am currently in the low 200's for total T, and an > SHBG of > > 12. I am only trying to get in the 600 to 700 range, > not > > 1100 like my doc keeps himself. > > > > Been doing some reading and some of the potential > adverse > > effects are surprising to me. > > I read about water retention, along with sodium, > potassium, > > chloride, and calcium retention. Also anxiety and > depression > > is mentioned, as well as increased lipid levels, along > with > > gynecomastia. Also read that it may increase blood > pressure > > and heart rate as well. I am mainly concerned about > the BP > > and heart rate issue as I already have problems there. > Funny > > thing is my Cardiologist wants me on this stuff, or > for it > > to be straightened out ASAP. > > > > What the heck! > > I thought it was good for your heart and your lipid > > profile, plus how can a male hormone cause 'man > boobs' > > unless it is through conversion to E2? > > > > Last question,.....regardless of gel or shots, what > dosage > > of HCG is used to try and avoid complete shutdown of > the > > testes and preventing atrophy? > > I realize I am asking questions that have most likely > been > > answered hundreds of times, but I really need to > apply > > things to my individual situation. > > > > Thanks again as usual! > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 Doing Test C shots every weeks IM you would use the same dose but do them every 3 days. So if your doing 100 mgs every week. You would do 40 mgs subQ every 3 days. Using a Insulin Syringe 29 to 31g 1ml. x 1/2 " lg. When you draw out the oil you need to pull the plunger all the way down and hold it until you get your dose. Co-Moderator Phil > > > From: marc200134470 <cfs38@...> > Subject: Injectable T question > > Date: Saturday, March 26, 2011, 12:48 PM > > > > > > > I will be getting blood drawn Monday AM to see if this > Clomid stuff did anything. Thought I was feeling something > the other day but I guess not as it left and I still feel > the same,......yes, I know only the blood test will show for > sure. > > Anyway I am planning ahead with the assumption I will be > starting TRT very soon. > I know Phil says to try the compounded gel first, and I > surely will. First on the gel,.....has anyone heard of it > being compounded with chrysin in the mix? > This is what my doc does I believe. > > Second, if I end up on shots, how many different forms of > testosterone are there, and what should I be getting? I hear > you guys mainly talk about testC mostly. > Any idea of how much I should take, and how often? > I am currently in the low 200's for total T, and an SHBG of > 12. I am only trying to get in the 600 to 700 range, not > 1100 like my doc keeps himself. > > Been doing some reading and some of the potential adverse > effects are surprising to me. > I read about water retention, along with sodium, potassium, > chloride, and calcium retention. Also anxiety and depression > is mentioned, as well as increased lipid levels, along with > gynecomastia. Also read that it may increase blood pressure > and heart rate as well. I am mainly concerned about the BP > and heart rate issue as I already have problems there. Funny > thing is my Cardiologist wants me on this stuff, or for it > to be straightened out ASAP. > > What the heck! > I thought it was good for your heart and your lipid > profile, plus how can a male hormone cause 'man boobs' > unless it is through conversion to E2? > > Last question,.....regardless of gel or shots, what dosage > of HCG is used to try and avoid complete shutdown of the > testes and preventing atrophy? > I realize I am asking questions that have most likely been > answered hundreds of times, but I really need to apply > things to my individual situation. > > Thanks again as usual! > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 what I am confused about is the equilvalent dosage...are you saying a full insulin syringe of the size you mention is equal to 40mg of test. cyp. can you equal 100 mg with syringes? > > > From: marc200134470 <cfs38@...> > Subject: Injectable T question > > Date: Saturday, March 26, 2011, 12:48 PM > > > Â > > > > I will be getting blood drawn Monday AM to see if this > Clomid stuff did anything. Thought I was feeling something > the other day but I guess not as it left and I still feel > the same,......yes, I know only the blood test will show for > sure. > > Anyway I am planning ahead with the assumption I will be > starting TRT very soon. > I know Phil says to try the compounded gel first, and I > surely will. First on the gel,.....has anyone heard of it > being compounded with chrysin in the mix? > This is what my doc does I believe. > > Second, if I end up on shots, how many different forms of > testosterone are there, and what should I be getting? I hear > you guys mainly talk about testC mostly. > Any idea of how much I should take, and how often? > I am currently in the low 200's for total T, and an SHBG of > 12. I am only trying to get in the 600 to 700 range, not > 1100 like my doc keeps himself. > > Been doing some reading and some of the potential adverse > effects are surprising to me. > I read about water retention, along with sodium, potassium, > chloride, and calcium retention. Also anxiety and depression > is mentioned, as well as increased lipid levels, along with > gynecomastia. Also read that it may increase blood pressure > and heart rate as well. I am mainly concerned about the BP > and heart rate issue as I already have problems there. Funny > thing is my Cardiologist wants me on this stuff, or for it > to be straightened out ASAP. > > What the heck! > I thought it was good for your heart and your lipid > profile, plus how can a male hormone cause 'man boobs' > unless it is through conversion to E2? > > Last question,.....regardless of gel or shots, what dosage > of HCG is used to try and avoid complete shutdown of the > testes and preventing atrophy? > I realize I am asking questions that have most likely been > answered hundreds of times, but I really need to apply > things to my individual situation. > > Thanks again as usual! > > > > > > > > > > Â Â Â > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 years ago, I did high dosage hcg's, is this desensitizing reversible...I guess I will have to do the dose your reccommend and see what happens? Â second question, how long will it take androgel or testim to take effect and feel improvement? > > > From: marc200134470 <cfs38@...> > > Subject: Injectable T question > > > > Date: Saturday, March 26, 2011, 12:48 PM > > I will be getting blood drawn Monday > > AM to see if this Clomid stuff did anything. Thought I > was > > feeling something the other day but I guess not as it > left > > and I still feel the same,......yes, I know only the > blood > > test will show for sure. > > > > Anyway I am planning ahead with the assumption I will > be > > starting TRT very soon. > > I know Phil says to try the compounded gel first, and > I > > surely will. First on the gel,.....has anyone heard of > it > > being compounded with chrysin in the mix? > > This is what my doc does I believe. > > > > Second, if I end up on shots, how many different forms > of > > testosterone are there, and what should I be getting? > I hear > > you guys mainly talk about testC mostly. > > Any idea of how much I should take, and how often? > > I am currently in the low 200's for total T, and an > SHBG of > > 12. I am only trying to get in the 600 to 700 range, > not > > 1100 like my doc keeps himself. > > > > Been doing some reading and some of the potential > adverse > > effects are surprising to me. > > I read about water retention, along with sodium, > potassium, > > chloride, and calcium retention. Also anxiety and > depression > > is mentioned, as well as increased lipid levels, along > with > > gynecomastia. Also read that it may increase blood > pressure > > and heart rate as well. I am mainly concerned about > the BP > > and heart rate issue as I already have problems there. > Funny > > thing is my Cardiologist wants me on this stuff, or > for it > > to be straightened out ASAP. > > > > What the heck! > > I thought it was good for your heart and your lipid > > profile, plus how can a male hormone cause 'man > boobs' > > unless it is through conversion to E2? > > > > Last question,.....regardless of gel or shots, what > dosage > > of HCG is used to try and avoid complete shutdown of > the > > testes and preventing atrophy? > > I realize I am asking questions that have most likely > been > > answered hundreds of times, but I really need to > apply > > things to my individual situation. > > > > Thanks again as usual! > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 yeah, I got it, years ago shippen had me on hcg as a trt. > > > From: marc200134470 <cfs38@...> > > Subject: Re: Injectable T question > > > > Date: Saturday, March 26, 2011, 2:21 PM > > Thanks much Phil,...the reason I ask > > here without researching is you and many others have > lived > > this stuff for years. I put a lot of faith in that > simple > > fact. > > > > I understand what you are saying about adding an AI, > even > > though herbal, to a compunded gel. This is what he > does I > > guess, but I am sure I can tell him I don't want it > added > > until I see what happens with my E2 levels. > > My E2 went from 52 to 24 with a very small run of > generic > > Arimidex. I took .5 twice a week for a month only. I > have a > > refill of 8 more pills in the cabinet if I need them > in the > > future. > > > > When it comes to shots, my doc believes in once a week > done > > SubQ. I presume Test C is OK for that? I wish I would > have > > asked him what form he was talking about letting me > inject, > > but I will get another chance shortly. > > > > Where I must have misunderstood him is in terms of the > HCG > > issue. I thought he said I would use HCG only once > every 4 > > to 6 weeks? Sounds like I am wrong, or he believes > something > > totally different. > > > > I was holding fluid a lot more when my E2 was up > there. As > > it came down most of that ended, and I don't spend > half the > > evening taking a whizz anymore. > > Does the fluid holding come from the testosterone, or > from > > high E2 caused in some folks from TRT? > > > > I still hold out a small amount of hope that I may > avoid > > TRT but I think the odds are against me. I simply have > to do > > something to get myself to feeling better again. > > As always, thanks for your help! > > > > > > > > > > Marc, > > > > > > It's OK to ask Questions we can answer faster > then you > > can research it. > > > > > > 1.) Yes if your Dr. can get it with chrysin in it > it > > will help keep down your Estraidol levels. But the > > only problem I have about adding other things to gels > or > > creams. Is what if your Estrraidol levels fall to > low > > your using this everyday now what. > > > > > > 2.) Test C is about the best if you have a > reaction to > > the Oil in it then try the other ones. > > > In this link are all the kinds of TRT and shots > also > > how to start on TRT it's for women becoming men but > still > > dam good full of good info. > > > http://www.ftmguide.org/ttypes.html#cypionate > > > Men start on 100 mgs / week never let a Dr. put > you on > > them more then every week. Doing shots every 2 to 4 > > weeks is very old. Don't get stuck on a lab number > go > > by how your feeling if you don't feel good at 600 - > 700 go > > up into the 800 - 900's it's not about the number it's > about > > how your feeling. > > > > > > 3.) The potential adverse effects most of us > don't > > have them but you need labs to keep on top of your > blood > > levels to see if they are getting to thick. Yes > > testosterone is good for your heart but some of us > hold > > water. I did from day one so I take a water pill > every > > 3 days not a big deal. Keeping Estradiol down and > > taking a water pill every now and them helps keep your > BP > > good and your heat rate. > > > > > > 4.) Men doing shots once a week do 250 IU's of > HCG the > > 2 days each before there next shot. On shots 2x's a > > week or every 3 days do the 250 IU's shot the day > before > > your next Test C shot. > > > > > > On gel or creams do 250 IU's every 3 days. > > > Co-Moderator > > > Phil > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 I may reword this slightly if I take it with me. Some of the wording makes it look like I got an opinion from someone personally and I am trying to tell him what to do,.....that might not go over well with my doc. Also this is meant more for someone trying to convince a doctor to use HCG that does not currently. Mine does,.....just not the way you are suggesting, OR I really had a brain fart on that subject concerning what he said. Just to make this clear,......YOU are saying I should be doing 250 HCG twice a week MINIMUM, along with my once a week T shot? Is that correct? I am only trying to find minimum dosage and frequency at this point, not trying to convince my doc to use HCG. Thanks much! > > Show your Dr. this post I got from Dr. to help me get my Dr. to let me use HCG. > ================================================== > He probably feels that since you suffer primary hypogonadism (I am guessing) there is no use in adding HCG to your protocol. There are several reasons why this is not so. First, you have not lost all Leydig cells, so any HCG you take will stimulate those who still function to produce endogenous testosterone. > > This will support testicular size. We should not ignore this aesthetic consideration. > > Next, if he reads my work, he will learn that HPTA-suppressed (as all TRT patients are to some extent) also suffer decreased pregenenolone levels, which is the first step after CHOL in all three hormonal pathways which begin with CHOL. HCG increases pregnenolone production, and therefore restores a more natural balance of our hormones. > > Next, nearly all TRT patients who add in HCG to their regimens report an increased sense of well-being and also libido. These are genuine quality of life issues. > > Finally, I just instinctively do not want all those LH receptors (including those we have yet to discover and appreciate) unstimulated. > > > Co-Moderator > Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 He was trying to do what my doc is currently,.....see how much T your own testes can make when stimulated with a higher LH/FSH signal. Only difference is mine is using Clomid. I guess HCG and Clomid should theoretically be called LHRT. It sure is not 'replacing' testosterone by any means. > > yeah, I got it, years ago shippen had me on hcg as a trt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 OK most men use Test C it comes 200 mgs/ ml. so to do a 40mgs shot it would be ..2 on the Insulin Syringe most of them hold 1 ml. or 1cc they are the same. So again to do a 40 mgs shot with 200 mgs / ml Test C it would be .2 mls. or .2 cc's. Co-Moderator Phil > > > > > > From: marc200134470 <cfs38@...> > > Subject: Injectable T question > > > > Date: Saturday, March 26, 2011, 12:48 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I will be getting blood drawn Monday AM to see if > this > > Clomid stuff did anything. Thought I was feeling > something > > the other day but I guess not as it left and I still > feel > > the same,......yes, I know only the blood test will > show for > > sure. > > > > Anyway I am planning ahead with the assumption I will > be > > starting TRT very soon. > > I know Phil says to try the compounded gel first, and > I > > surely will. First on the gel,.....has anyone heard of > it > > being compounded with chrysin in the mix? > > This is what my doc does I believe. > > > > Second, if I end up on shots, how many different forms > of > > testosterone are there, and what should I be getting? > I hear > > you guys mainly talk about testC mostly. > > Any idea of how much I should take, and how often? > > I am currently in the low 200's for total T, and an > SHBG of > > 12. I am only trying to get in the 600 to 700 range, > not > > 1100 like my doc keeps himself. > > > > Been doing some reading and some of the potential > adverse > > effects are surprising to me. > > I read about water retention, along with sodium, > potassium, > > chloride, and calcium retention. Also anxiety and > depression > > is mentioned, as well as increased lipid levels, along > with > > gynecomastia. Also read that it may increase blood > pressure > > and heart rate as well. I am mainly concerned about > the BP > > and heart rate issue as I already have problems there. > Funny > > thing is my Cardiologist wants me on this stuff, or > for it > > to be straightened out ASAP. > > > > What the heck! > > I thought it was good for your heart and your lipid > > profile, plus how can a male hormone cause 'man > boobs' > > unless it is through conversion to E2? > > > > Last question,.....regardless of gel or shots, what > dosage > > of HCG is used to try and avoid complete shutdown of > the > > testes and preventing atrophy? > > I realize I am asking questions that have most likely > been > > answered hundreds of times, but I really need to > apply > > things to my individual situation. > > > > Thanks again as usual! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 Yes when you do to much HCG and become desensitized stopping it for most me there testis will come back. But if your Primary all ready doing HCG would be of no use at very high dose's and stopping it your Testis will only come back as good as they were before using the high dose of HCG. Most Dr. not up on HCG read the insert and it's talking about dose's for making a baby men do them high dose's for a short time and don't have this problem. As for Androgel read this copy of a file I made. ================================================= Starting on Androgel or Testim. Yes this happens a lot you start on a low starting dose 5 grams when your brain sees the testosterone in your blood even just a little it slows down even stops sending the LH and FSH message to your testis to make the Testosterone you were making. So lets say your labs for Total T were 350 you add this dose of gel your brain sees this and you lose the base level you had before the gel. Now lets say you need more then 5 grams most do so now all your left with is what the gel is doing so lets say it's doing 200 so you lost 150. The reason you feel good is your levels go up that 200 the gel is doing in the first 2 weeks so your levels go up to 550 in theory. The brain sees this and you fall back. Why can this happen it might be how your putting on the gel with Androgel you need to spread it over your upper arms and shoulders and down your back as far as you can reach this is half of your dose then do the other side. Just spread it over the area but don't rub it in. The other thing is it's not getting through your skin good so you need more. If you have a thyroid problem your skin will become thicker and gels and creams don't get through the skin and you need to switch to shots. I tell men when they go on Gels to retest in 2 weeks because you can end up feeling worse. Most men just need more gel. Dr.'s that tell men to go on 5 grams of gel and come back in 8 to 12 weeks for labs don't know much about the use of gels. Dr.'s that treat a lot of men for low T on gels see this happen and test them again in 2 weeks. When you go to do labs get up and shower that morning go do your labs and then put in the gel after your blood test so you don’t spike up your labs. If you can’t do labs in the morning shower put on the gel but don’t get any gel on the spot they take the blood from. Do your labs about 6 hrs later. Call your Dr. and tell him this and that your not feeling good you were but fell back. Co-Moderator Phil > > > > > From: marc200134470 <cfs38@...> > > > Subject: Injectable T question > > > > > > Date: Saturday, March 26, 2011, 12:48 PM > > > I will be getting blood drawn Monday > > > AM to see if this Clomid stuff did anything. > Thought I > > was > > > feeling something the other day but I guess not > as it > > left > > > and I still feel the same,......yes, I know only > the > > blood > > > test will show for sure. > > > > > > Anyway I am planning ahead with the assumption I > will > > be > > > starting TRT very soon. > > > I know Phil says to try the compounded gel first, > and > > I > > > surely will. First on the gel,.....has anyone > heard of > > it > > > being compounded with chrysin in the mix? > > > This is what my doc does I believe. > > > > > > Second, if I end up on shots, how many different > forms > > of > > > testosterone are there, and what should I be > getting? > > I hear > > > you guys mainly talk about testC mostly. > > > Any idea of how much I should take, and how > often? > > > I am currently in the low 200's for total T, and > an > > SHBG of > > > 12. I am only trying to get in the 600 to 700 > range, > > not > > > 1100 like my doc keeps himself. > > > > > > Been doing some reading and some of the > potential > > adverse > > > effects are surprising to me. > > > I read about water retention, along with sodium, > > potassium, > > > chloride, and calcium retention. Also anxiety > and > > depression > > > is mentioned, as well as increased lipid levels, > along > > with > > > gynecomastia. Also read that it may increase > blood > > pressure > > > and heart rate as well. I am mainly concerned > about > > the BP > > > and heart rate issue as I already have problems > there. > > Funny > > > thing is my Cardiologist wants me on this stuff, > or > > for it > > > to be straightened out ASAP. > > > > > > What the heck! > > > I thought it was good for your heart and your > lipid > > > profile, plus how can a male hormone cause 'man > > boobs' > > > unless it is through conversion to E2? > > > > > > Last question,.....regardless of gel or shots, > what > > dosage > > > of HCG is used to try and avoid complete shutdown > of > > the > > > testes and preventing atrophy? > > > I realize I am asking questions that have most > likely > > been > > > answered hundreds of times, but I really need to > > apply > > > things to my individual situation. > > > > > > Thanks again as usual! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 Yes one of the old members here Z was seeing Dr. Shippen and on HCG only. After a time he was posting a Dr. 's old forum at Meso and Dr. told Daivd to try doing 100 IU's every day he did and it worked better he ended up only needing 60 IU's. Here is a paper did back then a very good read. http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/mens-health-forum/david-z-s-primer-134235700.html http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/mens-health-forum/david-z-s-primer-134235701.html Co-Moderator Phil > > > > > From: marc200134470 <cfs38@...> > > > Subject: Re: Injectable T > question > > > > > > Date: Saturday, March 26, 2011, 2:21 PM > > > Thanks much Phil,...the reason I ask > > > here without researching is you and many others > have > > lived > > > this stuff for years. I put a lot of faith in > that > > simple > > > fact. > > > > > > I understand what you are saying about adding an > AI, > > even > > > though herbal, to a compunded gel. This is what > he > > does I > > > guess, but I am sure I can tell him I don't want > it > > added > > > until I see what happens with my E2 levels. > > > My E2 went from 52 to 24 with a very small run > of > > generic > > > Arimidex. I took .5 twice a week for a month > only. I > > have a > > > refill of 8 more pills in the cabinet if I need > them > > in the > > > future. > > > > > > When it comes to shots, my doc believes in once a > week > > done > > > SubQ. I presume Test C is OK for that? I wish I > would > > have > > > asked him what form he was talking about letting > me > > inject, > > > but I will get another chance shortly. > > > > > > Where I must have misunderstood him is in terms > of the > > HCG > > > issue. I thought he said I would use HCG only > once > > every 4 > > > to 6 weeks? Sounds like I am wrong, or he > believes > > something > > > totally different. > > > > > > I was holding fluid a lot more when my E2 was up > > there. As > > > it came down most of that ended, and I don't > spend > > half the > > > evening taking a whizz anymore. > > > Does the fluid holding come from the > testosterone, or > > from > > > high E2 caused in some folks from TRT? > > > > > > I still hold out a small amount of hope that I > may > > avoid > > > TRT but I think the odds are against me. I simply > have > > to do > > > something to get myself to feeling better again. > > > As always, thanks for your help! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marc, > > > > > > > > It's OK to ask Questions we can answer > faster > > then you > > > can research it. > > > > > > > > 1.) Yes if your Dr. can get it with chrysin > in it > > it > > > will help keep down your Estraidol levels. But > the > > > only problem I have about adding other things to > gels > > or > > > creams. Is what if your Estrraidol levels fall > to > > low > > > your using this everyday now what. > > > > > > > > 2.) Test C is about the best if you have a > > reaction to > > > the Oil in it then try the other ones. > > > > In this link are all the kinds of TRT and > shots > > also > > > how to start on TRT it's for women becoming men > but > > still > > > dam good full of good info. > > > > http://www.ftmguide.org/ttypes.html#cypionate > > > > Men start on 100 mgs / week never let a Dr. > put > > you on > > > them more then every week. Doing shots every 2 > to 4 > > > weeks is very old. Don't get stuck on a lab > number > > go > > > by how your feeling if you don't feel good at 600 > - > > 700 go > > > up into the 800 - 900's it's not about the number > it's > > about > > > how your feeling. > > > > > > > > 3.) The potential adverse effects most of > us > > don't > > > have them but you need labs to keep on top of > your > > blood > > > levels to see if they are getting to thick. > Yes > > > testosterone is good for your heart but some of > us > > hold > > > water. I did from day one so I take a water > pill > > every > > > 3 days not a big deal. Keeping Estradiol down > and > > > taking a water pill every now and them helps keep > your > > BP > > > good and your heat rate. > > > > > > > > 4.) Men doing shots once a week do 250 IU's > of > > HCG the > > > 2 days each before there next shot. On shots > 2x's a > > > week or every 3 days do the 250 IU's shot the > day > > before > > > your next Test C shot. > > > > > > > > On gel or creams do 250 IU's every 3 days. > > > > Co-Moderator > > > > Phil > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 Then you need to read this at Dr. 's forum http://www.musclechatroom.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?2-All-Things-Male & s= & dayspr\ une= ==================================================== AN UPDATE TO THE CRISLER HCG PROTOCOL By Crisler, DO In my paper “My Current Best Thoughts on How to Administer TRT for Menâ€, published in A4M’s 2004/5 Anti-Aging Clinical Protocols, I introduced a new protocol where small doses of Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin (HCG) are regularly added to traditional TRT (either weekly IM testosterone cypionate or daily cream/gel). The reasons and benefits of this protocol are as follows, along with a new improvement I wish to share: Any physician who administers TRT will, within the first few months of doing so, field complaints from their patients because they are now experiencing troubling testicular atrophy. Irrespective of the numerous and abundant benefits of TRT, men never enjoy seeing their genitals shrinking! Testicular atrophy occurs because the depressed LH level, secondary to the HPTA suppression TRT induces, no longer supports them. It is well known that HCG—a Luteinizing Hormone (LH) analog—will effectively, and dramatically, restore the testicles to previous form and function. It accomplishes this due to shared moiety between the alpha subunits of both hormones. So, that satisfies an aesthetic consideration which should not be ignored. Now let’s delve into the pharmacodynamics of the TRT medications. For those employing injectable testosterone cypionate, the cypionate ester provides a 5-8 day half-life, depending upon the specific metabolism, activity level, and overall health of the patient. It is now well-established that appropriate TRT using IM injections must be dosed at weekly intervals, in order to avoid seating the patient on a hormonal, and emotional, roller coaster. Adding in some HCG toward the end of the weekly “cycle†compensates for the drop in serum androgen levels by the half-life of the cypionate ester. Certainly the body thrives on regularity, and supplementing the TRT with endogenous testosterone production at just the right time—without inappropriately raising androgen OR estrogen (more on that later)—approximates the excellent performance stability of transdermal testosterone delivery systems for those who, for whatever reason or reasons, prefer test cyp. But there’s another metabolic reason to employ this protocol. The P450 Side Chain Cleavage enzyme, which converts CHOL into pregnenolone at the initiation of all three metabolic pathways CHOL serves as precursor (the sex hormones, glucocorticoids and mineralcorticoids), is actively stimulated, or depressed, by LH concentrations. It is intuitively consistent that during conditions of lowered testosterone levels, commensurate increases in LH production would serve to stimulate this conversion from CHOL into these pathways, thereby feeding more raw material for increased hormone production. And vice versa. Thus the addition of HCG (which also stimulates the P450scc enzyme) helps restore a more natural balance of the hormones within this pathway in patients who are entirely, or even partially, HPTA-suppressed. It is important that no more than 500IU of HCG be administered on any given day. There is only just so much stimulation possible, and exceeding that not only is wasteful, doing so has important negative consequences. Higher doses overly stimulate testicular aromatase, which inappropriately raises estrogen levels, and brings on the detrimental effects of same. It also causes Leydig cell desentization to LH, and we are therefore inducing primary hypogonadism while perhaps treating secondary hypogonadism. 250IU QD is an effective, and safe, dose. After all, we are merely replacing that which is lost to inhibition. In my previous report I recommended 250IU of HCG twice per week for all TRT patients, taken the day of, along with the day before, the weekly test cyp injection. After looking at countless lab printouts, listening to subjective reports from patients, and learning more about HCG, I am now shifting that regimen forward one day. In other words, my test cyp TRT patients now take their HCG at 250IU two days before, as well as the day immediately previous to, their IM shot. All administer their HCG subcutaneously, and dosage may be adjusted as necessary (I have yet to see more than 350IU per dose required). I made this change after realizing that the previous HCG protocol was boosting serum testosterone levels too much, as the test cyp serum concentrations rise, approaching its peak at roughly the 72 hour mark. The original goal of supporting serum androgen levels with HCG had overshot its mark. Those TRT patients who prefer a transdermal testosterone, or even testosterone pellets (although I am not in favor of same), take their HCG every third day. They needn’t concern themselves with diminishing serum androgen levels from their testosterone delivery system. These patients will, of course, notice an increase in serum androgen levels above baseline. While HCG, as sole TRT, is still considered treatment of choice for hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism by many , my experience is that it just does not bring the same subjective benefits as pure testosterone delivery systems do—even when similar serum androgen levels are produced from comparable baseline values. However, supplementing the more “traditional†TRT of transdermal, or injected, testosterone with HCG stabilizes serum levels, prevents testicular atrophy, helps rebalance expression of other hormones, and brings reports of greatly increased sense of well-being and libido. My patients absolutely love it. As time goes on, we are coming to appreciate HCG as a much more powerful--and wonderful--hormone than previously given credit. Copyright Crisler, DO 2004. This article may, in its entirety or in part, be reprinted and republished without permission, provided that credit is given to its author, with copyright notice and www.AllThingsMale.com clearly displayed as source. Written permission from Dr. Crisler is required for all other uses. Dr. Crisler may be reached at: Doctor@... Co-Moderator Phil > From: marc200134470 <cfs38@...> > Subject: Re: Injectable T question > > Date: Sunday, March 27, 2011, 12:51 PM > > > I may reword this slightly if I take it with me. Some of > the wording makes it look like I got an opinion from someone > personally and I am trying to tell him what to do,.....that > might not go over well with my doc. > > Also this is meant more for someone trying to convince a > doctor to use HCG that does not currently. > Mine does,.....just not the way you are suggesting, OR I > really had a brain fart on that subject concerning what he > said. > > Just to make this clear,......YOU are saying I should be > doing 250 HCG twice a week MINIMUM, along with my once a > week T shot? > Is that correct? > > I am only trying to find minimum dosage and frequency at > this point, not trying to convince my doc to use HCG. > > Thanks much! > > > > > > Show your Dr. this post I got from Dr. to help me > get my Dr. to let me use HCG. > > ================================================== > > He probably feels that since you suffer primary > hypogonadism (I am guessing) there is no use in adding HCG > to your protocol. There are several reasons why this is not > so. First, you have not lost all Leydig cells, so any HCG > you take will stimulate those who still function to produce > endogenous testosterone. > > > > This will support testicular size. We should not > ignore this aesthetic consideration. > > > > Next, if he reads my work, he will learn that > HPTA-suppressed (as all TRT patients are to some extent) > also suffer decreased pregenenolone levels, which is the > first step after CHOL in all three hormonal pathways which > begin with CHOL. HCG increases pregnenolone production, and > therefore restores a more natural balance of our hormones. > > > > Next, nearly all TRT patients who add in HCG to their > regimens report an increased sense of well-being and also > libido. These are genuine quality of life issues. > > > > Finally, I just instinctively do not want all those LH > receptors (including those we have yet to discover and > appreciate) unstimulated. > > > > > > Co-Moderator > > Phil > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2011 Report Share Posted March 27, 2011 Thanks Phil,....much better for my purpose! Looks like 250IU every third day if I go the compounded gel route first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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