Re: Re: needle size/TRT - What I use

[Guest guest]

No disrespect to Phil either, but A) my well-respected TRT doc said to use the

longer needle (at least 1 " ) and I see the same recommendation in other TRT

literature - to use at least a 1 " needle. 

I use a 22 ga. to draw the Cyp from the vial (it only takes a few seconds) and a

25 ga. 1 " to inject with.  I have recently tried a 27 ga. 1/2 " and I agree

wholeheartedly that the T seems to dissipate into my blood system faster and I

(frankly) don't like it.  I would rather have the slower and more even blood

absorption by injecting the Cyp deeper into the muscle.  I also have the same

recommendation; don't rub the spot afterwards. As well I apply pressure with a

alcohol swab for about 2 minutes immediately after withdrawing the needle which

prevents any blood from seeping into the muscle.  When blood seeps into the

muscle, that can cause pain after a shot.  I have no pain whatsoever by doing

this (no rubbing and apply immediate pressure for 2 minutes after withdrawing

the needle).

My 2 cents...

Bill

________________________________

From: k0cm <Randy@...>

Sent: Tue, September 14, 2010 5:03:18 PM

Subject: Re: needle size/TRT - What I use

 

With all this conversation on needle size and methods of injection, I feel I

should mention what I use.

I mean no disrespect to Phil and his 27 ga 1/2 " system, but that is not what

most doctors or nurses would recommend.

My wife is an RN and usually gives me the shot in my gluetus maximus (butt).

When she is not available I give myself the shot in the vastus lateralis (thigh

muscle).

We use a 22ga x 1 1/2 " Syringe with detachable needle. BD # 309593.

We have 18ga x 1 " needles to draw with: BD # 305195

These can be ordered from Amazon.com or many other online sources. Just Google

the BD (Becton Dickinson)number.

We use the 18ga needle to draw the testosterone cypionate, then replace it with

the original 22ga needle for injection.

I will admit that the 1 1/2 " needle looks a bit wicked but with one exception

when we hit a nerve it is virtually painless. A sharp, single use needle enters

quite smoothly. In addition most of the nerves are near the skin, so you are not

going to feel much by going deeper.

Testosterone Cypionate is fairly thick and is designed to be placed deeply in a

large muscle. The idea behind a " depot " injection it that is will remain in the

muscle for a long time and slowly enter circulation. If the " bolus " of T is near

the skin where there are many capillaries, it will disperse much more rapidly

than intended.

A half inch needle would barely get it through my skin and the underlying layer

of fat. Furthermore, with a small gauge needle, greater force in needed on the

plunger and it has to stay in longer. This leads to a greater liklihood that you

will wiggle it around while injecting and that's not good.

My wife was taught to never rub the injection site. This only adds to the injury

caused by the needle. Just wipe it with an alcohol prep and put on a bandaid if

needed.

Your mileage may vary but that's what works for me.

Randy Hoops

Springfield, MO

[Guest guest]

Another point here; the vial will dull the needle.  Therefore, if you use the

same needle to inject as you did to draw the T out of the vial, you are

injecting yourself with a dulled needle and that will increase the likelihood of

pain.

Bill

________________________________

From: inc_100 <no_reply >

Sent: Tue, September 14, 2010 8:03:23 PM

Subject: Re: needle size/TRT - What I use

 

The very first time when I got my TC shot from my docs office, the nurse told me

that TC has to be administered by a 21G needle and to draw the med using a 18G

needle is good. So first few of my shots, I got that way and the " depot "

term/concept is also right. I read it somewhere online. " The med has to be

deposited deep in the muscle " .

But when I started HCG, I liked the " no pain " needle 27G. So I asked my doc to

use something better than 21G and so he ordered 26G for me. Since then I have

been getting my TC shots with a 26G 1/2 inch needle but some how it hurts a

little. And my wife gives my shots now.

So my last shot, I asked my wife to use a 27G and she used it and its " NO

HURTING " . Zero pain. So............... I think as most of the guys here do their

shots themselves and on a regular basis, to avoid the pain they use smaller

needles like 27G / 28G / 30G etc.

What all we want is avoid the PAIN. Right !

Joe.

>

> With all this conversation on needle size and methods of injection, I feel I

>should mention what I use.

>

> I mean no disrespect to Phil and his 27 ga 1/2 " system, but that is not what

>most doctors or nurses would recommend.

>

> My wife is an RN and usually gives me the shot in my gluetus maximus (butt).

>

> When she is not available I give myself the shot in the vastus lateralis

(thigh

>muscle).

>

> We use a 22ga x 1 1/2 " Syringe with detachable needle. BD # 309593.

> We have 18ga x 1 " needles to draw with: BD # 305195

>

> These can be ordered from Amazon.com or many other online sources. Just Google

>the BD (Becton Dickinson)number.

>

> We use the 18ga needle to draw the testosterone cypionate, then replace it

with

>the original 22ga needle for injection.

>

> I will admit that the 1 1/2 " needle looks a bit wicked but with one exception

>when we hit a nerve it is virtually painless. A sharp, single use needle enters

>quite smoothly. In addition most of the nerves are near the skin, so you are

not

>going to feel much by going deeper.

>

> Testosterone Cypionate is fairly thick and is designed to be placed deeply in

a

>large muscle. The idea behind a " depot " injection it that is will remain in the

>muscle for a long time and slowly enter circulation. If the " bolus " of T is

near

>the skin where there are many capillaries, it will disperse much more rapidly

>than intended.

>

> A half inch needle would barely get it through my skin and the underlying

layer

>of fat. Furthermore, with a small gauge needle, greater force in needed on the

>plunger and it has to stay in longer. This leads to a greater liklihood that

you

>will wiggle it around while injecting and that's not good.

>

> My wife was taught to never rub the injection site. This only adds to the

>injury caused by the needle. Just wipe it with an alcohol prep and put on a

>bandaid if needed.

>

> Your mileage may vary but that's what works for me.

>

> Randy Hoops

> Springfield, MO

>

[Guest guest]

It's all good I know Dr.'s say this about doing shots but most Dr.'s are not up

to date about this.

The Dr. that did the book " The Testosterone Syndrome " Dr. Shippen now dose Test

C shots every 3 days subQ in his belly fat every 3 days using an Insulin Needle.

This is how I got started doing shots my self and doing them every 3 days. My

Dr. will not let me do them subQ but told me it's fine to shoot into my thigh

using a 1/2 " lg. needle.

Here is a cut and paste from this link to read it I think you need to join but

it's over 14 pages long with Dr. aka SWALE posting.

http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/mens-health-forum/injecting-testosterone-subcutan\

eously-134237662.html

=================================================

I heard back from the patient of Dr. Shippen. He injects depo-testosterone

200mg/ml, .35 ml every 3 days into abdominal fat. He splits the injections into

two .18 ml injections which is .36 ml, and says this is because a tiny amount

will leak out of the injection site.

According to this patient, this dosing schedule leaves him with a stable 900

ng/dl total testosterone level and none of the high estrogen conversion

associated with large intramuscular injection.

Apparently Shippen is convinced enough that this is now his preferred method of

TRT. I know he starts by trying to get levels into the high normal range by

trying to get the body to make its own, but if TRT is called for apparently

subcutaneous injection is the first thing he prescribes.

------------------------------------------------

And here is more.

===================================================

STABLE TESTOSTERONE LEVELS ACHIEVED

WITH SUBCUTANEOUS TESTOSTERONE

INJECTIONS

M.B. Greenspan, C.M. Chang

Division of Urology, Department of Surgery, McMaster University,

Hamilton, ON, Canada

Objectives: The preferred technique of androgen replacement

has been intramuscular (IM) testosterone, but wide

variations in testosterone levels are often seen. Subcutaneous

(SC) testosterone injection is a novel approach; however,

its physiological effects are unclear. We therefore investigated

the sustainability of stable testosterone levels using

SC therapy. Patients and methods: Between May and

September 2005, we conducted a small pilot study involving

10 male patients with symptomatic late-onset hypogonadism.

Every patient had been stable on TE 200 mg IM for

41 year. Patients were instructed to self-inject with

testosterone enanthate (TE) 100 mg SC (DELATESTRYL

200 mg/cc, Theramed Corp, Canada) into the anterior

abdomen once weekly. Some patients were down-titrated

to 50 mg based on their total testosterone (T) at 4 weeks.

Informed consent was obtained as SC testosterone administration

is not officially approved by Health Canada. T

levels were measured before and 24 hours after injection

during weeks 1, 2, 3, and 4, and 96 hours after injection

in week 6 and 8. At week 12, PSA, CBC, and T levels

were measured however; the week 12 data are still being

collected. Results: Prior to initiation of SC therapy, T

was 19.14+3.48 nmol/l, hemoglobin 15.8+1.3 g/dl, hematocrit

0.47+0.02, and PSA 1.05+0.65 ng/ml. During

the first 4 weeks, there was a steady increase in

pre-injection T from 19.14+3.48 to 23.89+9.15 nmol/l

(p�0.1). However, after 8 weeks the post-injection T

(25.77+7.67 nmol/l) remained similar to that of week 1

(27.46+12.91 nmol/l). Patients tolerated this therapy with

no adverse effects. Conclusions: A once-week SC injection

of 50�100 mg of TE appears to achieve sustainable and

stable levels of physiological T. This technique offers

fewer physician visits and the use of smaller quantity of

medication, thus lower costs. However, the long term

clinical and physiological effects of this therapy need further

evaluation.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: k0cm <Randy@...>

> Subject: Re: needle size/TRT - What I use

>

> Date: Tuesday, September 14, 2010, 8:03 PM

> With all this conversation on needle

> size and methods of injection, I feel I should mention what

> I use.

>

> I mean no disrespect to Phil and his 27 ga 1/2 " system, but

> that is not what most doctors or nurses would recommend.

>

> My wife is an RN and usually gives me the shot in my

> gluetus maximus (butt).

>

> When she is not available I give myself the shot in the

> vastus lateralis (thigh muscle).

>

> We use a 22ga x 1 1/2 " Syringe with detachable needle. BD #

> 309593.

> We have 18ga x 1 " needles to draw with: BD # 305195

>

> These can be ordered from Amazon.com or many other online

> sources. Just Google the BD (Becton Dickinson)number.

>

> We use the 18ga needle to draw the testosterone cypionate,

> then replace it with the original 22ga needle for

> injection.

>

> I will admit that the 1 1/2 " needle looks a bit wicked but

> with one exception when we hit a nerve it is virtually

> painless. A sharp, single use needle enters quite

> smoothly.  In addition most of the nerves are near the

> skin, so you are not going to feel much by going deeper.

>

> Testosterone Cypionate is fairly thick and is designed to

> be placed deeply in a large muscle. The idea behind a

> " depot " injection it that is will remain in the muscle for a

> long time and slowly enter circulation. If the " bolus " of T

> is near the skin where there are many capillaries, it will

> disperse much more rapidly than intended.

>

> A half inch needle would barely get it through my skin and

> the underlying layer of fat. Furthermore, with a small gauge

> needle, greater force in needed on the plunger and it has to

> stay in longer.  This leads to a greater liklihood that

> you will wiggle it around while injecting and that's not

> good.

>

> My wife was taught to never rub the injection site. This

> only adds to the injury caused by the needle.  Just

> wipe it with an alcohol prep and put on a bandaid if

> needed.

>

> Your mileage may vary but that's what works for me.

>

> Randy Hoops

> Springfield, MO

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the kind words I learn something new here every week. I just try to

give info I know about but it's not law.

And your great here for all if us a dam big help.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> >

> > It's all good

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Barb,

When I " feel " the testosterone at GOOD levels, I feel well overall.  My energy

is good, my mind is clear, my mood is positive, no sweats, no ups-and-downs

during the days.  When I feel BAD, I am fatigued, I bloat (water retention), my

breathing gets a bit labored (the water retention), I sometimes get hot flashes,

my hands sweat, and I just feel down.  My guess is my estrogen is causing these

symptoms.  Another symptom is that I get more of a " rush " if I use the shorted

needle.  Not sure what that is, but I definitely feel something.

Using my symptoms as a metric (instead of blood tests) as to when I think my

hormones are in a good range, here's what I have observed; when I use the

shorter needle I have almost all BAD days. In fact, I usually go from feeling

sort of okay (before the shot) to feeling the BAD symptoms pretty soon after

the

shot (later that day sometimes, for the next 2-4 days every time).  Usually, by

the next day and for the next few days, I have my BAD symptoms.

If I use the longer needle, I tend to have GOOD days for days 1-4 after my

shot.  My belief is that I am getting too much T too fast which is causing my

estrogen to rise quickly.

I noticed something that may backup my theory; when I first started injecting T

I noticed that if I injected in my right leg, I felt better (more good days)

than if I injected in my left leg.  My right leg has more muscle than my

left. 

Could it be that because I have more muscle that the T is being absorbed

slower? 

So.. what do you think of this?

Bill

PS - I have been using the shorter needle for the last two-three weeks and I

haven't been feeling well at all.  In fact, my best days where when I stopped

my

injections for about 9 days.  After about a week with no shot had passsed, I

felt reasonably well.  I injected another shot and felt okay for the next few

days.  Then I took my next injection and boom, the BAD symptoms have been

ongoing.  I took my next injection yesterday and I feel like crud.  I inject

50mg (.25 of 200ml/ng) twice a week.  I am going in today for some blood

testing

and I'm very curious what it will show.  Either my T or my E is whacked or

something else (non-hormonal) is going on.  I doubt it's the latter because

there sure seems to be a correlation with my T shots.  I think I am going to

hold off for a week before my next shot and once I start again I am going to use

the longer needle and see if that makes my symptoms GOOD more often.  All in

all, this hormone therapy, which used to help somewhat, is now becoming

annoying

and it's letting me down in that I just don't understand why I can't get this

right.

________________________________

From: Barb <baba@...>

Sent: Tue, September 14, 2010 9:05:24 PM

Subject: Re: needle size/TRT - What I use

 

Bill, could you elaborate on this? In what way did you feel differently? Did you

feel like you got more estradiol that way? I use a 25G, 1 " , 1 ml syringe, draw,

shoot, no changing of needles, best compromise for minimal cost and minimal

pain.

Bill Totten <bill_totten@...> wrote:

> I have recently tried a 27 ga. 1/2 " and I agree

> wholeheartedly that the T seems to dissipate into my blood system faster and I

>frankly) don't like it. 

>

[Guest guest]

I went to every 3 days for my shots this keeps me more leveled and doing HCG the

day before each shot helps me big time. You need to find what works for you and

keep to it.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> > I have recently tried a 27 ga. 1/2 " and I agree

> > wholeheartedly that the T seems to dissipate into my

> blood system faster and I

> >frankly) don't like it. 

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>      

>

>

[Guest guest]

I also have times where my body temp is low and I don't feel well, like today. 

I feel like crud, no energy, hands are cold, and my temp is 96.9, 97.0. 

Thyroid

tests in the past come back as okay, near the low end of the ranges.  Don't

know

what to do.  I hear low-grade infection can cause low body temp, but I don't

know where the infection is if taht's the source.

What brain chemistry are you referring to?

________________________________

From: Barb <baba@...>

Sent: Wed, September 15, 2010 1:33:14 PM

Subject: Re: needle size/TRT - What I use

 

Thanks Bill, I agree that what you're experiencing are high estrogen symptoms. I

also agree that all HRT is a royal PITA (literally for you guys)!

It's possible that 50 mg at once is too much, and for you, putting it deeper in

the muscle helps slow down absorption. Everyone's different. That's why I like

1 " , it could be partially subq, and partially muscle, so he gets the benefit of

either.

I've been reading Dr. no's site (thanks Phil for the link!) and he says

total T of 650 is what he shoots for. If you're above that and still don't feel

right, you need to look at other hormones (thyroid would be my guess), diet,

brain chemistry, etc.

Barb

Bill Totten <bill_totten@...> wrote:

>

> Hi Barb,

>

> When I " feel " the testosterone at GOOD levels, I feel well overall.  My

>energy

>

> is good, my mind is clear, my mood is positive, no sweats, no ups-and-downs

> during the days.  When I feel BAD, I am fatigued, I bloat (water

retention),

>my

>

> breathing gets a bit labored (the water retention), I sometimes get hot

>flashes,

>

> my hands sweat, and I just feel down.  My guess is my estrogen is causing

>these

>

> symptoms.  Another symptom is that I get more of a " rush " if I use the

shorted

>

> needle.  Not sure what that is, but I definitely feel something.

>

> Using my symptoms as a metric (instead of blood tests) as to when I think

my

> hormones are in a good range, here's what I have observed; when I use the

> shorter needle I have almost all BAD days. In fact, I usually go from feeling

> sort of okay (before the shot) to feeling the BAD symptoms pretty soon

after

>the

>

> shot (later that day sometimes, for the next 2-4 days every time). 

Usually,

>by

>

> the next day and for the next few days, I have my BAD symptoms.

>

> If I use the longer needle, I tend to have GOOD days for days 1-4 after my

> shot.  My belief is that I am getting too much T too fast which is causing

my

> estrogen to rise quickly.

>

> I noticed something that may backup my theory; when I first started injecting

T

>

> I noticed that if I injected in my right leg, I felt better (more good days)

> than if I injected in my left leg.  My right leg has more muscle than my

>left. 

>

> Could it be that because I have more muscle that the T is being absorbed

> slower? 

>

>

> So.. what do you think of this?

> Bill

>

> PS - I have been using the shorter needle for the last two-three weeks and I

> haven't been feeling well at all.  In fact, my best days where when I

stopped

>my

>

> injections for about 9 days.  After about a week with no shot had

passsed, I

> felt reasonably well.  I injected another shot and felt okay for the next

few

> days.  Then I took my next injection and boom, the BAD symptoms have been

> ongoing.  I took my next injection yesterday and I feel like crud.  I

inject

> 50mg (.25 of 200ml/ng) twice a week.  I am going in today for some blood

>testing

>

> and I'm very curious what it will show.  Either my T or my E is whacked or

> something else (non-hormonal) is going on.  I doubt it's the latter because

> there sure seems to be a correlation with my T shots.  I think I am going

to

> hold off for a week before my next shot and once I start again I am going to

>use

>

> the longer needle and see if that makes my symptoms GOOD more often.  All

in

> all, this hormone therapy, which used to help somewhat, is now becoming

>annoying

>

> and it's letting me down in that I just don't understand why I can't get this

> right.

>

>

>

>

> ________________________________

> From: Barb <baba@...>

>

> Sent: Tue, September 14, 2010 9:05:24 PM

> Subject: Re: needle size/TRT - What I use

>

>  

> Bill, could you elaborate on this? In what way did you feel differently? Did

>you

>

> feel like you got more estradiol that way? I use a 25G, 1 " , 1 ml syringe,

draw,

>

> shoot, no changing of needles, best compromise for minimal cost and minimal

> pain.

>

> Bill Totten <bill_totten@> wrote:

> > I have recently tried a 27 ga. 1/2 " and I agree

> > wholeheartedly that the T seems to dissipate into my blood system faster and

>I

>

> >frankly) don't like it. 

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Try this home test to tell if your thyroid is low.

http://drbate.com/Ref/thyroid.html

Co-Moderator

Phil

> > > I have recently tried a 27 ga. 1/2 " and I agree

> > > wholeheartedly that the T seems to dissipate into

> my blood system faster and

> >I

> >

> > >frankly) don't like it. 

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

" You need to find what works for you and keep to it. "   That's so true. Problem

is I haven't found it yet.  Did you go through these good and bad days before

you got it right?  Sometimes there so many bad days compared to good days that

I

just want to quit this whiole TRT stuff.  The doc makes adjustments and things

don't get any better....no slam on the doc here...

Bill

________________________________

From: philip georgian <pmgamer18@...>

Sent: Wed, September 15, 2010 2:05:14 PM

Subject: Re: Re: needle size/TRT - What I use

 

I went to every 3 days for my shots this keeps me more leveled and doing HCG the

day before each shot helps me big time. You need to find what works for you and

keep to it.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> > I have recently tried a 27 ga. 1/2 " and I agree

> > wholeheartedly that the T seems to dissipate into my

> blood system faster and I

> >frankly) don't like it. 

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>      

>

>

[Guest guest]

Barb,

I just had them run a new set of thyroid tests and I'll post the results.

Bill

________________________________

From: Barb <baba@...>

Sent: Wed, September 15, 2010 2:28:06 PM

Subject: Re: needle size/TRT - What I use

 

Bottom of range is usually hypothyroid. Healthy is mid-range and higher. Do you

have labs and ranges? Cold hands and low temp is most definitely hypo. Infection

should cause higher temp.

Brain chemistry is dopamine, serotonin, all the neurotransmitters that things

like SSRIs and benzos affect. I would not recommend them to anyone till

everything else had been ruled out. In your case, it sounds highly likely that

you're hypothyroid and addressing that could mean a world of difference.

Barb

> > > I have recently tried a 27 ga. 1/2 " and I agree

> > > wholeheartedly that the T seems to dissipate into my blood system faster

>and

>

> >I

> >

> > >frankly) don't like it. 

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I can tell you this as far as my temp is concerned; lately when I have been

feeling cruddy I have taken my temp.  It is always low, between 96.9 and

97.4. 

When it's up around 98+ I feel better.

________________________________

From: philip georgian <pmgamer18@...>

Sent: Wed, September 15, 2010 2:39:21 PM

Subject: Re: Re: needle size/TRT - What I use

 

Try this home test to tell if your thyroid is low.

http://drbate.com/Ref/thyroid.html

Co-Moderator

Phil

> > > I have recently tried a 27 ga. 1/2 " and I agree

> > > wholeheartedly that the T seems to dissipate into

> my blood system faster and

> >I

> >

> > >frankly) don't like it. 

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

You can't go by this read this link on taking your temps and charting them for

Adrenals and Thyroid.

I printed out the chart in this link and used it to see how I was doing when I

started treating my low Cortisol and Thyroid levels.

http://www.drrind.com/therapies/metabolic-temperature-graph

Co-Moderator

Phil

> > > > I have recently tried a 27 ga. 1/2 " and I

> agree

> > > > wholeheartedly that the T seems to dissipate

> into

> > my blood system faster and

> > >I

> > >

> > > >frankly) don't like it. 

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >      

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Yes I had a lot of up and downs what started working for me was when I got my

levels of Total T up into the upper 1/3 of my labs range and started to keep my

Estradiol down to about 20 pg/ml.

I was for yrs low normal for Cortisol and Thyroid Dr.s told me I am in the

range. When I found a Dr. willing to try treating them I started feeling much

better. You need to check all the hormones and treat the ones that look low

even if they are in range.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> > > I have recently tried a 27 ga. 1/2 " and I agree

> > > wholeheartedly that the T seems to dissipate into

> my

> > blood system faster and I

> > >frankly) don't like it. 

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >      

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Phil,

Thanks.  This looks rather " involved " .  I'll read it do what it says -

I'm very

curious to see what it shows.  It looks to be comprehensive which I see as

being

most likely to determine if I have a thyroid problem.  I did have some bood

drawn yesterday - they are going to run some comprehensive thyroid tests. 

Those

tests combined with the what I will do from the article you suggested should be

conclusive one way or the other; is thyroid the problem.

As always, thanks for your insight.  How is your health?

Bill

________________________________

From: philip georgian <pmgamer18@...>

Sent: Thu, September 16, 2010 7:12:02 AM

Subject: Re: Re: needle size/TRT - What I use

 

You can't go by this read this link on taking your temps and charting them for

Adrenals and Thyroid.

I printed out the chart in this link and used it to see how I was doing when I

started treating my low Cortisol and Thyroid levels.

http://www.drrind.com/therapies/metabolic-temperature-graph

Co-Moderator

Phil

> > > > I have recently tried a 27 ga. 1/2 " and I

> agree

> > > > wholeheartedly that the T seems to dissipate

> into

> > my blood system faster and

> > >I

> > >

> > > >frankly) don't like it. 

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >      

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

The tests I had run two weeks ago (when I was feeling not so well - lots of the

" bad " symptoms) came in with some good hormone numbers:

Total T 564 (280-800)

Free T 14.9 (7.2 - 24.0)

Estradiol (Roche ECLIA methodology) 21.2 (7.6 - 42.6)

My schedule the two weeks prior was 50mg T-Cyp twice a week, Anastrazole 3 times

a week (once each shot day and one extra in between).

To me, these numbers look pretty darn good.  But I still had a lot of bad

days. 

Then, I went 8 days without anything (no shots or Anastrazole) and I started to

feel better.  Went back to the same shot schedule (no Anastrazole) and back

came

the bad symptoms (bloating, palms sweating, feelin fatigued, listless), BUT

I still had major morning and nighttime wood.  Strong libido too.  It seems

like

my T is up, but I'm getting the symptoms of high E.  Yet my tests show good

numbers. 

I wonder, am I really sensitive to the HRT?  I'm going to consult with doc and

see what he thinks now that I have some reasonably good feedback to give him and

see what he sugegsts.  It's almost as if I am sensitive to the therapy and

that

I may need to stop and see if my body can produce enough on its own, or just use

small doses of T-Cyp spread out over a greater time period.

Does anyone have the same experiences as me?

Bill

________________________________

From: philip georgian <pmgamer18@...>

Sent: Thu, September 16, 2010 7:19:03 AM

Subject: Re: Re: needle size/TRT - What I use

 

Yes I had a lot of up and downs what started working for me was when I got my

levels of Total T up into the upper 1/3 of my labs range and started to keep my

Estradiol down to about 20 pg/ml.

I was for yrs low normal for Cortisol and Thyroid Dr.s told me I am in the

range. When I found a Dr. willing to try treating them I started feeling much

better. You need to check all the hormones and treat the ones that look low even

if they are in range.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> > > I have recently tried a 27 ga. 1/2 " and I agree

> > > wholeheartedly that the T seems to dissipate into

> my

> > blood system faster and I

> > >frankly) don't like it. 

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >      

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I am about the same as yesterday I think I over did yesterday by bed time I had

a lot of pain and trouble getting up and walking with a walker. So I think I

need to go easy until them CoQ10 levels come back up. So today I much better

then I was last night but about the same as yesterday morning.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> > > > > I have recently tried a 27 ga. 1/2 " and

> I

> > agree

> > > > > wholeheartedly that the T seems to

> dissipate

> > into

> > > my blood system faster and

> > > >I

> > > >

> > > > >frankly) don't like it. 

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have

> been

> > removed]

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >      

> > >

> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ------------------------------------

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Bill how much Anastrazole do you take 3x's a week it might be your sentive to

the Estraidol from being on TRT. When I was using labs with that range I felt

better up near 650 to 700. I went to shots of Test C every 3 days so it would

be a smaller shot with less converson into Estraidol.

I get days were 3x's a week of .25 mgs of Arimidex is not enough to keep my

Estradiol in check yet wood was good. So I would take it every other day

making sure my wood was still good and I would drop a lot of water.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> > > > I have recently tried a 27 ga. 1/2 " and I

> agree

> > > > wholeheartedly that the T seems to dissipate

> into

> > my

> > > blood system faster and I

> > > >frankly) don't like it. 

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >      

> > >

> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ------------------------------------

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Well, " better " is better than " worse " , eh?

________________________________

From: philip georgian <pmgamer18@...>

Sent: Thu, September 16, 2010 9:43:20 AM

Subject: Re: Re: needle size/TRT - What I use

 

I am about the same as yesterday I think I over did yesterday by bed time I had

a lot of pain and trouble getting up and walking with a walker. So I think I

need to go easy until them CoQ10 levels come back up. So today I much better

then I was last night but about the same as yesterday morning.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> > > > > I have recently tried a 27 ga. 1/2 " and

> I

> > agree

> > > > > wholeheartedly that the T seems to

> dissipate

> > into

> > > my blood system faster and

> > > >I

> > > >

> > > > >frankly) don't like it. 

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have

> been

> > removed]

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >      

> > >

> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ------------------------------------

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

I was taking a .25 capsule 3x a week.

________________________________

From: philip georgian <pmgamer18@...>

Sent: Thu, September 16, 2010 9:55:32 AM

Subject: Re: Re: needle size/TRT - What I use

 

Bill how much Anastrazole do you take 3x's a week it might be your sentive to

the Estraidol from being on TRT. When I was using labs with that range I felt

better up near 650 to 700. I went to shots of Test C every 3 days so it would be

a smaller shot with less converson into Estraidol.

I get days were 3x's a week of .25 mgs of Arimidex is not enough to keep my

Estradiol in check yet wood was good. So I would take it every other day making

sure my wood was still good and I would drop a lot of water.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> > > > I have recently tried a 27 ga. 1/2 " and I

> agree

> > > > wholeheartedly that the T seems to dissipate

> into

> > my

> > > blood system faster and I

> > > >frankly) don't like it. 

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >      

> > >

> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ------------------------------------

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Today is better then yesterday I am trying to do some leg exercises the ones

they gave me when I came home from my Heart Bypass to help me get strong enough

to walk again.

I try not to think about this when I do the worry builds and builds until I feel

like I am going to have a Panic Attack.

I joined this group and they are a lot of help.

Stopped_Our_Statins/join?yguid=154836543 & fi\

nish=sub

Co-Moderator

Phil

> > > > > > I have recently tried a 27 ga.

> 1/2 " and

> > I

> > > agree

> > > > > > wholeheartedly that the T seems

> to

> > dissipate

> > > into

> > > > my blood system faster and

> > > > >I

> > > > >

> > > > > >frankly) don't like it. 

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message

> have

> > been

> > > removed]

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >      

> > > >

> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have

> been

> > removed]

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > ------------------------------------

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

I would test your Estradiol levels doing this you might need to try every 2

days.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> > > > > I have recently tried a 27 ga. 1/2 " and

> I

> > agree

> > > > > wholeheartedly that the T seems to

> dissipate

> > into

> > > my

> > > > blood system faster and I

> > > > >frankly) don't like it. 

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >      

> > > >

> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have

> been

> > removed]

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > ------------------------------------

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

Phil,

I find prayer works... for the obvious and the not so obvious reasons. 

Spending

time in prayer, sometimes just listening and sitting at God's feet, really calms

me down.  That I can cast my cares on Him for He cares for me, is sweet

knowledge. 

Bill

________________________________

From: philip georgian <pmgamer18@...>

Sent: Fri, September 17, 2010 8:23:46 AM

Subject: Re: Re: needle size/TRT - What I use

 

Today is better then yesterday I am trying to do some leg exercises the ones

they gave me when I came home from my Heart Bypass to help me get strong enough

to walk again.

I try not to think about this when I do the worry builds and builds until I feel

like I am going to have a Panic Attack.

I joined this group and they are a lot of help.

Stopped_Our_Statins/join?yguid=154836543 & fi\

nish=sub

Co-Moderator

Phil

> > > > > > I have recently tried a 27 ga.

> 1/2 " and

> > I

> > > agree

> > > > > > wholeheartedly that the T seems

> to

> > dissipate

> > > into

> > > > my blood system faster and

> > > > >I

> > > > >

> > > > > >frankly) don't like it. 

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message

> have

> > been

> > > removed]

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >      

> > > >

> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have

> been

> > removed]

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > ------------------------------------

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

That's what's confusing... here's my numbers from the last tets when I was

taking Anastrazole 3x week and 50mg twice a week of T-Cyp.  You would think I

would be feeling pretty god, but I wasn't:

> > Total T 564 (280-800)

> > Free T 14.9 (7.2 - 24.0)

> > Estradiol (Roche ECLIA methodology) 21.2 (7.6 - 42.6)

________________________________

From: philip georgian <pmgamer18@...>

Sent: Fri, September 17, 2010 8:25:26 AM

Subject: Re: Re: needle size/TRT - What I use

 

I would test your Estradiol levels doing this you might need to try every 2

days.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> > > > > I have recently tried a 27 ga. 1/2 " and

> I

> > agree

> > > > > wholeheartedly that the T seems to

> dissipate

> > into

> > > my

> > > > blood system faster and I

> > > > >frankly) don't like it. 

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >      

> > > >

> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have

> been

> > removed]

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > ------------------------------------

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

Yes I feel the same way.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> > > > > > > I have recently tried a 27

> ga.

> > 1/2 " and

> > > I

> > > > agree

> > > > > > > wholeheartedly that the T

> seems

> > to

> > > dissipate

> > > > into

> > > > > my blood system faster and

> > > > > >I

> > > > > >

> > > > > > >frankly) don't like

> it. 

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this

> message

> > have

> > > been

> > > > removed]

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >      

> > > > >

> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message

> have

> > been

> > > removed]

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > ------------------------------------

> > > > >

> > > > >

[Guest guest]

The only thing I could add about this is your Total and Free T levels are on the

lower side. You might need a higher dose. I felt so much better when I got my

levels a little higher. Three months ago my levels fell to 550 because my Dr.

felt bing on GH I could do good at a lower dose. It took some time but my

levels fell and I have been felling like crap on top of all the other things

going wrong.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> > > > > > I have recently tried a 27 ga.

> 1/2 " and

> > I

> > > agree

> > > > > > wholeheartedly that the T seems

> to

> > dissipate

> > > into

> > > > my

> > > > > blood system faster and I

> > > > > >frankly) don't like it. 

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >      

> > > > >

> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message

> have

> > been

> > > removed]

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > ------------------------------------

> > > > >

> > > > >