Guest guest Posted March 16, 2006 Report Share Posted March 16, 2006 Hi i took fludrocortisone always with other hormones so I cant say fludrocortisone was responsible. I used to take it with armour thyroid, hydrocortisone, dhea, testosterone etc. I seemed to react on alot of the hormones, even hydrocortisone alone or armour thyroid alone. The hormone treatment gave me a crisis and symptoms which were typical for severe aldosterone deficiency. I eventually stopped. Also strangely I had quite low aldosterone prior to the treatment. I dont know of any others who have reported adverse effects. If you wanna discuss, feel free to contact me. Per > > Hi all, > > I have a prescription for Fludrocortisone (Florinef) 0.1mg twice a > day for POTS. > I read that Florinef has been used during the last 10 years for > orthostatic intolerance in cfs patients by dr. Bell and others and > that it hasn´t turned out to be very successful and that dr. Cheney > doesn´t want to use it, but I am willing to try it for a short > period to see if it can help. > > A couple of years ago I was prescribed the beta-blocker Inderal and > after about 5 days on it I completely crashed and it was like my cfs > had become a thousand times worse, it took about 9 months to recover > from this, it was a horrible and frightening experience, it felt > like I was dying. > This is why I am scared to start taking the Florinef, I don´t want > to have this happen again. > I was later told by a doctor that beta-blockers are contraindicated > for cfs patients with POTS and this is also mentioned on dr. > s site where it says that beta-blockers are rarely tolerated > when used to treat orthostatic intolerance. > > So unfortunately I was given the wrong drug at that time and I know > that if many cfs patients would have had similar bad reactions to > Florinef that this would have been reported by dr. Bell and others, > but I just wanted to ask if any of you here have tried Florinef and > how you reacted to it? > > > Thanks in advance, > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 16, 2006 Report Share Posted March 16, 2006 Hi , My cardiologist and I realized that Florinef would be a poor choice for me because of my migraines (it is known to increase them). Just to let you know, I was originally diagnosed with POTS, then saw a different cardialogist who laughed at this diagnosis and said I clearly had neurocardiogenic syncope. This was diagnosed with a tilt table test. I have found the best treatment for me (since I could not tolerate, or they weren't safe because of pregnancy or lactation, any drugs) to be: daily walks (which I realize is impossible depending on where you are with your CFS), increase my salt (I put it on everything I eat), increase my fluids (the doctor recommended Gatorade, but I can't handle all the sugar), and avoiding long periods of standing. The last one being a HUGE one. I actually had to change my career plans because of this, I have realized that I cannot stand in one position for more than about 5 minutes without severe symptoms. I don't know if any of this helps, please let me know if you have other questions. -Dawn I have a prescription for Fludrocortisone (Florinef) 0.1mg twice a > > day for POTS. > > I read that Florinef has been used during the last 10 years for > > orthostatic intolerance in cfs patients by dr. Bell and others and > > that it hasn´t turned out to be very successful and that dr. Cheney > > doesn´t want to use it, but I am willing to try it for a short > > period to see if it can help.> > > > A couple of years ago I was prescribed the beta-blocker Inderal and > > after about 5 days on it I completely crashed and it was like my cfs > > had become a thousand times worse, it took about 9 months to recover > > from this, it was a horrible and frightening experience, it felt > > like I was dying.> > This is why I am scared to start taking the Florinef, I don´t want > > to have this happen again. > > I was later told by a doctor that beta-blockers are contraindicated > > for cfs patients with POTS and this is also mentioned on dr. > > s site where it says that beta-blockers are rarely tolerated > > when used to treat orthostatic intolerance.> > > > So unfortunately I was given the wrong drug at that time and I know > > that if many cfs patients would have had similar bad reactions to > > Florinef that this would have been reported by dr. Bell and others, > > but I just wanted to ask if any of you here have tried Florinef and > > how you reacted to it?> > > > > > Thanks in advance,> > > >> It’s the future of Hotmail: Try Windows Live Mail beta http://www2.imagine-msn.com/minisites/mail/Default.aspx?locale=en-us Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 17, 2006 Report Share Posted March 17, 2006 , a far safer way to increase blood volume/pressure is to increase H20 and salt intake. If you try this suggest you start low' Maybe six glasses and six salt tablets...best to use the ones thet have a little potassium combined with the sodium...Thernotabs. I have known of others who used as high as 10 salt abd 10 glasses H20. I wouldn't recommend this unless you have a convenient blood pressure cuff and monitor pressure regularly. It does work and appears safe used long term, more than I can say for pharmaceuticals. Nite, Mel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 17, 2006 Report Share Posted March 17, 2006 I was later told by a doctor that beta-blockers are contraindicated for cfs patients with POTS and this is also mentioned on dr. s site where it says that beta-blockers are rarely tolerated when used to treat orthostatic intolerance. ***Really? I've never heard that. Do you know why it's bad? I have POTS and my beta-blocker is my most important drug. Well, I have OI at least--whether it's NMH or POTS depends who you ask. Originally I had a positive tilt table test and they put me on a beta-blocker, which I had a bad reaction to. But then they switched me to a different one and it definitely helps with the tachycardia at least. Later I went to an autonomic place and they said I didn't have NHM but I did have POTS. I also tried Florinef after the tilt table test and I remember it didn't help, but I don't remember if it caused me any problems or not. Trina --------------------------------- Relax. virus scanning helps detect nasty viruses! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 17, 2006 Report Share Posted March 17, 2006 Dawn Munn <dawnmunn@...> wrote: (the doctor recommended Gatorade, but I can't handle all the sugar), *** Have you tried Gookinaid? It's supposed to absorb directly so not cause sugar problems. I just started it--mostly positive. Also saline Recup might help without any sugar. Trina --------------------------------- Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 Hi Trina, I have never heard of either of these products. Do you know where I might find them? Also, do either of them have any artificial sweeteners of any kind? (I cannot tolerate them at all) Thanks so much, Dawn > *** Have you tried Gookinaid? It's supposed to absorb directly so not cause sugar problems. I just started it--mostly positive. Also saline Recup might help without any sugar.> > Trina It's the future, it's here, and it's free: Windows Live Mail beta http://www2.imagine-msn.com/minisites/mail/Default.aspx?locale=en-us Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2006 Report Share Posted March 21, 2006 Hi Dawn-- Gookinaid is a sports drink like Gatorade, but has been recommended by Dr. Cheney as good for building blood volume. If you get the citrus flavor (which is the one he recommends), it has glucose in it (and natural flavorings and colorings). The others also have a little fructose. It's supposed to have the right balance of electrolytes so that it absorbs through your stomach, so it increases blood volume properly (and the sugar isn't supposed to get into your intestines to cause any candida problems and is also supposed to be the right amount to normalize blood sugar rather than spiking it). The website is: www.gookinaid.com and it's also available at REI. Recup is short for Recuperat-ion which is a spanish product. It's sold in Spain as a sports drink, so it should also help with expanding blood volume. The particular ratio of mineral salts (sodium, potassium, magneisum, and calcium) cured the inventor of fibromyalgia and seems to be helping other people with CFIDS/FM as well. The website for ordering is: http://www.recuperat-ion.com/ There is also a group (AlfredblasiproctocolFMSCFS) with lots of information about it and the experiences of people who are using. (There are also some posts in the archives of experimental.) There are three flavors of recup: saline (no flavorings or sweeteners), Orange (artificial sweeteners), and Lemon (glucose, fructose, and natural lemon flavor). I've recently started using both. First I tried the saline Recup, but couldn't absorb it without the sugars (but most people don't have this problem). Now I'm on the lemon Recup and also taking some gookinaid at different times so I can increase my blood volume and stuff more while keeping my Recup dose consistent. Trina Dawn Munn <dawnmunn@...> wrote: Hi Trina, I have never heard of either of these products. Do you know where I might find them? Also, do either of them have any artificial sweeteners of any kind? (I cannot tolerate them at all) --------------------------------- Relax. virus scanning helps detect nasty viruses! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2006 Report Share Posted March 21, 2006 Oh yeah, I forgot. You can also make your own " home brew " --1 cup of water plus 1/8 tsp. salt plus 1/8 tsp. " No Salt " (a salt substitute which is potassium). More info: http://www.immunesupport.com/library/showarticle.cfm/ID/6683/T/CFIDS_FM/searchte\ xt/I Trina Katrina Tangen <tvpro36@...> wrote: Hi Dawn-- Gookinaid is a sports drink like Gatorade, but has been recommended by Dr. Cheney as good for building blood volume. If you get the citrus flavor (which is the one he recommends), it has glucose in it (and natural flavorings and colorings). The others also have a little fructose. It's supposed to have the right balance of electrolytes so that it absorbs through your stomach, so it increases blood volume properly (and the sugar isn't supposed to get into your intestines to cause any candida problems and is also supposed to be the right amount to normalize blood sugar rather than spiking it). The website is: www.gookinaid.com and it's also available at REI. Recup is short for Recuperat-ion which is a spanish product. It's sold in Spain as a sports drink, so it should also help with expanding blood volume. The particular ratio of mineral salts (sodium, potassium, magneisum, and calcium) cured the inventor of fibromyalgia and seems to be helping other people with CFIDS/FM as well. The website for ordering is: http://www.recuperat-ion.com/ There is also a group (AlfredblasiproctocolFMSCFS) with lots of information about it and the experiences of people who are using. (There are also some posts in the archives of experimental.) There are three flavors of recup: saline (no flavorings or sweeteners), Orange (artificial sweeteners), and Lemon (glucose, fructose, and natural lemon flavor). I've recently started using both. First I tried the saline Recup, but couldn't absorb it without the sugars (but most people don't have this problem). Now I'm on the lemon Recup and also taking some gookinaid at different times so I can increase my blood volume and stuff more while keeping my Recup dose consistent. Trina Dawn Munn <dawnmunn@...> wrote: Hi Trina, I have never heard of either of these products. Do you know where I might find them? Also, do either of them have any artificial sweeteners of any kind? (I cannot tolerate them at all) --------------------------------- Relax. virus scanning helps detect nasty viruses! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 3, 2011 Report Share Posted April 3, 2011 Aldosterone/renin testing is good. What are your sodium/potassium running, with ranges, though? I'd be pretty sick without Florinef and I only need a quarter of a tablet a day now. -Nigel On 3 April 2011 20:07, Rouse <michael.hugh.rouse@...> wrote: > > > Hey Group, > > I'm trying to convince my doc to let me try florinef. My last aldosterone > and renin labs showed that I may need it. He doesn't want to put me on it > though. Is it bad for us? > > Thanks, > > -- > *Mike* > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 3, 2011 Report Share Posted April 3, 2011 My aldosterone was 13 and my renin was like 300 (range ends at 150). My sodium was 138 My potassium was 3.8 Can't remember ranges but they are the standard ones. Thanks, Mike On Sun, Apr 3, 2011 at 7:28 PM, Nigel <nachonigel@...> wrote: > > > Aldosterone/renin testing is good. What are your sodium/potassium running, > with ranges, though? > > I'd be pretty sick without Florinef and I only need a quarter of a tablet a > day now. > > -Nigel > > > On 3 April 2011 20:07, Rouse <michael.hugh.rouse@...> wrote: > > > > > > > Hey Group, > > > > I'm trying to convince my doc to let me try florinef. My last aldosterone > > and renin labs showed that I may need it. He doesn't want to put me on it > > though. Is it bad for us? > > > > Thanks, > > > > -- > > *Mike* > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 4, 2011 Report Share Posted April 4, 2011 No it's not bad for you but if you can do without it your better off. I did good not using it until I needed HC meds for low cortisol after this it was needed. Until then I got by just adding Sea Salt to my water read this link about it. http://www.tuberose.com/Adrenal_Glands.html If you find your feeling bad like what they talk about in this link then point this way your feeling out to your Dr. And if your go on it you need to cut the pill into 4 parts staring with 1/4 of a pill going up 1/4 of a pill every 5 to 7 days until your doing .1 mgs in the morning with Sea Salt added to your water. Also read this cut and paste from this link. http://forums.realthyroidhelp.com/viewtopic.php?f=12 & t=15450 ================================================ Edit postDelete postReport this postWarn userInformationReply with quote Chris' explanation of Low Aldosterone in Hypopituitarism by Oz » Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:18 am My Explanation of Low Aldosterone in Hypopituitarism Written December 15, 2005 Aldosterone is a steroid secreted by the cortex of the adrenal gland. It is the most potent hormone regulating the body's electrolyte balance. Aldosterone acts directly on the kidney to decrease the rate of sodium-ion excretion (with accompanying retention of water), and to increase the rate of potassium-ion excretion. The secretion of aldosterone appears to be regulated by two mechanisms. First, the concentration of sodium ions may be a factor since increased rates of aldosterone secretion are found when dietary sodium is severely limited. Second, reduced blood flow to the kidney stimulates certain kidney cells to secrete the proteolytic enzyme renin, which converts the inactive angiotensinogen globulin in the blood into angiotensin I. Another enzyme then converts angiotensin I into angiotensin II, its active form. This peptide, in turn, stimulates the secretion of aldosterone by the adrenal cortex. Pathologically elevated aldosterone secretion with concomitant excessive retention of salt and water often results in EDEMA. Renin should always be tested with aldosterone. Only way to know if primary (hyperreninemic hypoaldosteronism) or secondary (hyporeninemic hypoaldosteronism) hypoaldosteronism. Women must test these the first 7 days of their cycle since the higher progesterone levels in the 2nd and 3rd week will likely raise their aldosterone artificially high (aldosterone come from progesterone). If aldosterone is low, renin high, that matches with primary AI. If aldosterone low, renin low, that matches with what those with secondary AI usually get. (In over 3 years, I've not seen a secondary with high renin. update Aug 06, ran across someone who's cortisol stim tripled, very low DHEA and low aldosterone and HIGH renin, so looks like it can happen, but looks to me to be very rare). I don't know why renin goes low in secondary AI. Hypothyroidism can mask hypoaldosteronism and I've read in my medical books that hypothyroid can block the production of renin. If you are on proper cortisol replacement and Armour (happens usually with less than 3 grains) is causing your pulse to go into the 90's or higher (I've seen some that will reach 120 or more before treating their hypoaldosteronism, pulse does not go high in every case, depending on what else might be going on), then definately test aldosterone, renin, sodium and potassium and get opinions of these tests. There is a wide belief in the medical community that hypoaldosterone only happens to those with primary adrenal insufficiency or 's. This is totally false as I have seen many with secondary AI test low for both aldosterone and renin. What is actually true is that many diagnosed with secondary AI don't get tested and diagnosed with hypoaldosteronism when they actually have it and need the Florinef and salt intake. The ranges for renin and aldosterone are very flawed, but among the least flawed of all hormone tests. Most people are in range on both tests. For florinef to work properly, salt must be ingested (teaspoon a day or more depending on the individual) since florinef is only half as potent has human aldosterone. Florinef has very potentially potent glucocorticoid properties, though most people benefit very slighty, if at all. A small percentage get the full potency. For those that experiance the full potency, 100 mcg has glucocorticoid potency of 10 mg of Cortef/hydrocortisone, 2 1/2 mg of prednisone and 2 mg of methylprednisone. Again, most do not experiance the glucocorticoid potency potential of Florinef. I don't know why this is. From my experiance, I'd say 1 in 20 get some noticeable glucocorticoid effect and I'd estimate up to 1 in 40 get full glucorticoid potency and have to lower their glucocorticoid (ie, hydrocortisone, prendnisone) to balance. Florinef, through it's ablility to help the body retain sodium, has a indirect suppressive effect on renin and aldosterone production and if glucocorticoid property is experianced, then florinef may also suppress natural cortisol. Deficiencies of aldosterone include low to very low blood pressure and high pulse due to lower blood volume from lack of sodium, excessive urination, desire to eat salt, dizziness or lightheadedness on standing, and palpitations, a pale, hollow face, a drowsy, absent-minded look, Severe cases may lead to high potassium and low sodium in blood tests. When the adrenals are not making aldosterone, renin, (a kidney enzyme), increases, but low aldosterone can also be caused by lack of renin enzyme. Without enough renin, angiotensin I and II can't be broken down into enough aldosterone and this is called hyporeninemic hypoaldosteronism. See this very informative thread " Aldosterone, florinef and Salt " on STTM http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/co ... php?t=8244 What side effects florinef can cause? Although side effects from fludrocortisone are not common, they can occur. Tell your doctor if any of these symptoms are severe or do not go away: increased blood pressure Water retention (can cause excessive weight gain)-swollen face (may be reddish), lower legs, or ankles stomach irritation, vomiting, black or tarry stool headache, dizziness insomnia , restlessness depression,anxiety acne, skin rash, easy bruising, increased hair growth irregular or absent menstrual periods vision problems cold or infection that lasts a long time muscle weakness See " My explanation of the renin-angiotensin-aldosterone system and it's affect on blood pressure as well as my thoughts on hypothyroidisms effect on this mechanism " Co-Moderator Phil > From: Rouse <michael.hugh.rouse@...> > Subject: florinef question > > Date: Sunday, April 3, 2011, 9:07 PM > Hey Group, > > I'm trying to convince my doc to let me try florinef. My > last aldosterone > and renin labs showed that I may need it. He doesn't want > to put me on it > though. Is it bad for us? > > Thanks, > > -- > *Mike* > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 4, 2011 Report Share Posted April 4, 2011 Mike, I don't know your ranges on sodium and potassium, but if those levels are below the middle of the range you can have problems. If you get Florinef you may also need potassium. It will go lower with Florinef. I've found over the counter potassium gluconate pills and powder fine and they worked better for me than prescription extended-release stuff. You must retest electrolytes frequently when raising these things so that you don't get into trouble with whacked out electrolytes. Why would Florinef be bad? -Nigel On 3 April 2011 21:06, Rouse <michael.hugh.rouse@...> wrote: > My aldosterone was 13 and my renin was like 300 (range ends at 150). > My sodium was 138 > My potassium was 3.8 > Can't remember ranges but they are the standard ones. > > Thanks, > > Mike > > On Sun, Apr 3, 2011 at 7:28 PM, Nigel <nachonigel@...> wrote: > > > > > > > Aldosterone/renin testing is good. What are your sodium/potassium > running, > > with ranges, though? > > > > I'd be pretty sick without Florinef and I only need a quarter of a tablet > a > > day now. > > > > -Nigel > > > > > > On 3 April 2011 20:07, Rouse <michael.hugh.rouse@...> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hey Group, > > > > > > I'm trying to convince my doc to let me try florinef. My last > aldosterone > > > and renin labs showed that I may need it. He doesn't want to put me on > it > > > though. Is it bad for us? > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > -- > > > *Mike* > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 4, 2011 Report Share Posted April 4, 2011 Nigel, Dr. M., who is my doc, said that it causes inflammation. My pcp also doesn't want to prescribe it unless I'm below the low range. I guess they are both afraid that it will raise my bp too high. What do you think? On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 7:50 PM, Nigel <nachonigel@...> wrote: > > > Mike, I don't know your ranges on sodium and potassium, but if those levels > are below the middle of the range you can have problems. > > If you get Florinef you may also need potassium. It will go lower with > Florinef. I've found over the counter potassium gluconate pills and powder > fine and they worked better for me than prescription extended-release > stuff. > You must retest electrolytes frequently when raising these things so that > you don't get into trouble with whacked out electrolytes. > > Why would Florinef be bad? > > -Nigel > > On 3 April 2011 21:06, Rouse <michael.hugh.rouse@...> wrote: > > > My aldosterone was 13 and my renin was like 300 (range ends at 150). > > My sodium was 138 > > My potassium was 3.8 > > Can't remember ranges but they are the standard ones. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Mike > > > > On Sun, Apr 3, 2011 at 7:28 PM, Nigel <nachonigel@...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Aldosterone/renin testing is good. What are your sodium/potassium > > running, > > > with ranges, though? > > > > > > I'd be pretty sick without Florinef and I only need a quarter of a > tablet > > a > > > day now. > > > > > > -Nigel > > > > > > > > > On 3 April 2011 20:07, Rouse <michael.hugh.rouse@...> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hey Group, > > > > > > > > I'm trying to convince my doc to let me try florinef. My last > > aldosterone > > > > and renin labs showed that I may need it. He doesn't want to put me > on > > it > > > > though. Is it bad for us? > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > -- > > > > *Mike* > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 4, 2011 Report Share Posted April 4, 2011 Steroids reduce inflammation. Florinef is another steroid, tweaked to work mostly on increasing sodium retention. A few ideas on blood pressure. Potassium is probably low in many with hypertension. Also, low sodium drives up renin. High renin can elevate blood pressure. Maybe this is why unrefined salt in water helps some get their blood pressure to go DOWN. Of course there are fancy renin blocker drugs out there to make more money than humble salt. Now salt didn't work for me and lots of it did drive up my blood pressure, but then I already had low potassium, so that doesn't surprise me. But once I got on Florinef and potassium my blood pressure went down. I've seen ones with suboptimal sodium and not have their aldosterone below the lab range. It is a very large range. -Nigel On 4 April 2011 21:20, Rouse <michael.hugh.rouse@...> wrote: > Nigel, > > Dr. M., who is my doc, said that it causes inflammation. My pcp also > doesn't want to prescribe it unless I'm below the low range. I guess they > are both afraid that it will raise my bp too high. What do you think? > > On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 7:50 PM, Nigel <nachonigel@...> wrote: > > > > > > > Mike, I don't know your ranges on sodium and potassium, but if those > levels > > are below the middle of the range you can have problems. > > > > If you get Florinef you may also need potassium. It will go lower with > > Florinef. I've found over the counter potassium gluconate pills and > powder > > fine and they worked better for me than prescription extended-release > > stuff. > > You must retest electrolytes frequently when raising these things so that > > you don't get into trouble with whacked out electrolytes. > > > > Why would Florinef be bad? > > > > -Nigel > > > > On 3 April 2011 21:06, Rouse <michael.hugh.rouse@...> > wrote: > > > > > My aldosterone was 13 and my renin was like 300 (range ends at 150). > > > My sodium was 138 > > > My potassium was 3.8 > > > Can't remember ranges but they are the standard ones. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Mike > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 4, 2011 Report Share Posted April 4, 2011 Nigel, My sodium was below mid range as was my potassium. Based on my labs and the fact that I get dizzy when I stand up from laying down, do you think that I should either keep pressing this issue with my doc or get my own forinef from an internet pharmacy and give it a trial run? Thanks, Mike On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 9:03 PM, Nigel <nachonigel@...> wrote: > > > Steroids reduce inflammation. Florinef is another steroid, tweaked to work > mostly on increasing sodium retention. > > A few ideas on blood pressure. Potassium is probably low in many with > hypertension. Also, low sodium drives up renin. High renin can elevate > blood > pressure. Maybe this is why unrefined salt in water helps some get their > blood pressure to go DOWN. Of course there are fancy renin blocker drugs > out > there to make more money than humble salt. > > Now salt didn't work for me and lots of it did drive up my blood pressure, > but then I already had low potassium, so that doesn't surprise me. But once > I got on Florinef and potassium my blood pressure went down. > > I've seen ones with suboptimal sodium and not have their aldosterone below > the lab range. It is a very large range. > > -Nigel > > > On 4 April 2011 21:20, Rouse <michael.hugh.rouse@...> wrote: > > > Nigel, > > > > Dr. M., who is my doc, said that it causes inflammation. My pcp also > > doesn't want to prescribe it unless I'm below the low range. I guess they > > are both afraid that it will raise my bp too high. What do you think? > > > > On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 7:50 PM, Nigel <nachonigel@...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Mike, I don't know your ranges on sodium and potassium, but if those > > levels > > > are below the middle of the range you can have problems. > > > > > > If you get Florinef you may also need potassium. It will go lower with > > > Florinef. I've found over the counter potassium gluconate pills and > > powder > > > fine and they worked better for me than prescription extended-release > > > stuff. > > > You must retest electrolytes frequently when raising these things so > that > > > you don't get into trouble with whacked out electrolytes. > > > > > > Why would Florinef be bad? > > > > > > -Nigel > > > > > > On 3 April 2011 21:06, Rouse <michael.hugh.rouse@...> > > wrote: > > > > > > > My aldosterone was 13 and my renin was like 300 (range ends at 150). > > > > My sodium was 138 > > > > My potassium was 3.8 > > > > Can't remember ranges but they are the standard ones. > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 4, 2011 Report Share Posted April 4, 2011 I can't tell you what to do. But I do understand how it feels to stand up and go blind for a few seconds as blood pressure drops so much! You need to have enough potassium as well as enough sodium. Starting Florinef seemed to help, but I also got some nasty leg cramps. I personally feel potassium plays a role in using sodium somehow (and probably the reverse). I also had much worse low potassium symptoms when taking too much T3 and when I wasn't taking high doses of thiamine (as benfotiamine). Thiamine has something to do with the cellular sodium-potassium pump (Na+/K+-ATPase). Interestingly I've heard that thyroid hormones tend to deplete thiamine. They probably also deplete potassium. Now on less thyroid and taking the extra B1 I don't even need much potassium. BTW, I've lowered my T3 and have added more natural thyroid. You said you were trying to do the same. The first two days on half the T3 and with more natural I felt funny. Kind of hypo and just weird. Now I feel better. I lowered T3 in half (now on 12.5 mcg) and raised Nature-Throid by 1/2 grain to 3.5 grains. Have you been able to add in natural thyroid? -Nigel On 4 April 2011 22:12, Rouse <michael.hugh.rouse@...> wrote: > Nigel, > > My sodium was below mid range as was my potassium. Based on my labs and the > fact that I get dizzy when I stand up from laying down, do you think that I > should either keep pressing this issue with my doc or get my own forinef > from an internet pharmacy and give it a trial run? > > Thanks, > > Mike > > On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 9:03 PM, Nigel <nachonigel@...> wrote: > > > > > > > Steroids reduce inflammation. Florinef is another steroid, tweaked to > work > > mostly on increasing sodium retention. > > > > A few ideas on blood pressure. Potassium is probably low in many with > > hypertension. Also, low sodium drives up renin. High renin can elevate > > blood > > pressure. Maybe this is why unrefined salt in water helps some get their > > blood pressure to go DOWN. Of course there are fancy renin blocker drugs > > out > > there to make more money than humble salt. > > > > Now salt didn't work for me and lots of it did drive up my blood > pressure, > > but then I already had low potassium, so that doesn't surprise me. But > once > > I got on Florinef and potassium my blood pressure went down. > > > > I've seen ones with suboptimal sodium and not have their aldosterone > below > > the lab range. It is a very large range. > > > > -Nigel > > > > > > On 4 April 2011 21:20, Rouse <michael.hugh.rouse@...> > wrote: > > > > > Nigel, > > > > > > Dr. M., who is my doc, said that it causes inflammation. My pcp also > > > doesn't want to prescribe it unless I'm below the low range. I guess > they > > > are both afraid that it will raise my bp too high. What do you think? > > > > > > On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 7:50 PM, Nigel <nachonigel@...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike, I don't know your ranges on sodium and potassium, but if those > > > levels > > > > are below the middle of the range you can have problems. > > > > > > > > If you get Florinef you may also need potassium. It will go lower > with > > > > Florinef. I've found over the counter potassium gluconate pills and > > > powder > > > > fine and they worked better for me than prescription extended-release > > > > stuff. > > > > You must retest electrolytes frequently when raising these things so > > that > > > > you don't get into trouble with whacked out electrolytes. > > > > > > > > Why would Florinef be bad? > > > > > > > > -Nigel > > > > > > > > On 3 April 2011 21:06, Rouse <michael.hugh.rouse@...> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > My aldosterone was 13 and my renin was like 300 (range ends at > 150). > > > > > My sodium was 138 > > > > > My potassium was 3.8 > > > > > Can't remember ranges but they are the standard ones. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > Mike > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 4, 2011 Report Share Posted April 4, 2011 Hi NIgel, Maybe I should just continue the potassium and sea salt and see how that goes? Yes, I did switch over a couple of days ago. I started with 1 grain and reduced my T3 dose to 60mcg. A couple of days later, I added in another grain and reduced my T3 by another 20 mcg, which puts me at 40 mcg of T3. So far, I feel like a space cadet but I also feel like my brain is more relaxed and that I am having an easier time processing info. But I definitely feel hypo right now and, like you said, weird. I also have this weird symptom; I'm not as sensitive to pain since switching. Is this a hypo symptom? BTW, I am on the generic for armour - NP Thyroid. Seems to be okay but doesn't deliver the punch that Armour or Naturthroid does. Maybe that's a good thing though. Thanks, Mike On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 9:37 PM, Nigel <nachonigel@...> wrote: > > > I can't tell you what to do. But I do understand how it feels to stand up > and go blind for a few seconds as blood pressure drops so much! > > You need to have enough potassium as well as enough sodium. Starting > Florinef seemed to help, but I also got some nasty leg cramps. I personally > feel potassium plays a role in using sodium somehow (and probably the > reverse). I also had much worse low potassium symptoms when taking too much > T3 and when I wasn't taking high doses of thiamine (as benfotiamine). > Thiamine has something to do with the cellular sodium-potassium pump > (Na+/K+-ATPase). Interestingly I've heard that thyroid hormones tend to > deplete thiamine. They probably also deplete potassium. Now on less thyroid > and taking the extra B1 I don't even need much potassium. > > BTW, I've lowered my T3 and have added more natural thyroid. You said you > were trying to do the same. The first two days on half the T3 and with more > natural I felt funny. Kind of hypo and just weird. Now I feel better. I > lowered T3 in half (now on 12.5 mcg) and raised Nature-Throid by 1/2 grain > to 3.5 grains. Have you been able to add in natural thyroid? > > -Nigel > > > On 4 April 2011 22:12, Rouse <michael.hugh.rouse@...> wrote: > > > Nigel, > > > > My sodium was below mid range as was my potassium. Based on my labs and > the > > fact that I get dizzy when I stand up from laying down, do you think that > I > > should either keep pressing this issue with my doc or get my own forinef > > from an internet pharmacy and give it a trial run? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Mike > > > > On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 9:03 PM, Nigel <nachonigel@...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Steroids reduce inflammation. Florinef is another steroid, tweaked to > > work > > > mostly on increasing sodium retention. > > > > > > A few ideas on blood pressure. Potassium is probably low in many with > > > hypertension. Also, low sodium drives up renin. High renin can elevate > > > blood > > > pressure. Maybe this is why unrefined salt in water helps some get > their > > > blood pressure to go DOWN. Of course there are fancy renin blocker > drugs > > > out > > > there to make more money than humble salt. > > > > > > Now salt didn't work for me and lots of it did drive up my blood > > pressure, > > > but then I already had low potassium, so that doesn't surprise me. But > > once > > > I got on Florinef and potassium my blood pressure went down. > > > > > > I've seen ones with suboptimal sodium and not have their aldosterone > > below > > > the lab range. It is a very large range. > > > > > > -Nigel > > > > > > > > > On 4 April 2011 21:20, Rouse <michael.hugh.rouse@...> > > wrote: > > > > > > > Nigel, > > > > > > > > Dr. M., who is my doc, said that it causes inflammation. My pcp also > > > > doesn't want to prescribe it unless I'm below the low range. I guess > > they > > > > are both afraid that it will raise my bp too high. What do you think? > > > > > > > > On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 7:50 PM, Nigel <nachonigel@...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike, I don't know your ranges on sodium and potassium, but if > those > > > > levels > > > > > are below the middle of the range you can have problems. > > > > > > > > > > If you get Florinef you may also need potassium. It will go lower > > with > > > > > Florinef. I've found over the counter potassium gluconate pills and > > > > powder > > > > > fine and they worked better for me than prescription > extended-release > > > > > stuff. > > > > > You must retest electrolytes frequently when raising these things > so > > > that > > > > > you don't get into trouble with whacked out electrolytes. > > > > > > > > > > Why would Florinef be bad? > > > > > > > > > > -Nigel > > > > > > > > > > On 3 April 2011 21:06, Rouse <michael.hugh.rouse@... > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > My aldosterone was 13 and my renin was like 300 (range ends at > > 150). > > > > > > My sodium was 138 > > > > > > My potassium was 3.8 > > > > > > Can't remember ranges but they are the standard ones. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 5, 2011 Report Share Posted April 5, 2011 There are sides on florinef and some people have BP problems. http://forums.realthyroidhelp.com/viewtopic.php?f=12 & t=15450 ==================================================== What side effects florinef can cause? Although side effects from fludrocortisone are not common, they can occur. Tell your doctor if any of these symptoms are severe or do not go away: increased blood pressure Water retention (can cause excessive weight gain)-swollen face (may be reddish), lower legs, or ankles stomach irritation, vomiting, black or tarry stool headache, dizziness insomnia , restlessness depression,anxiety acne, skin rash, easy bruising, increased hair growth irregular or absent menstrual periods vision problems cold or infection that lasts a long time muscle weakness -------------------------------------------------- EXPLANATION OF THE RENIN-ANGIOTENSIN-ALDOSTERONE-SYSTEM Aldosterone's main function is to regulate the amount of sodium and potassium in our bodies. This in turn, regulates retention of water and thus blood presure. The whole mechanism of aldosterone secretion is very complicated and probably the least understood of all endocrin secretory processes that are dealt with on forums like RTH. I have carefully put this sticky together in an attempt to explain this mechanism as simply as possible for the greatest number of people possible (including those experiancing brain fog) to understand it. Keep in mind this mechanism is much more complicated that I have laid out here. We talk about sodium so much you'd think that is all that affects aldosterone. Actually, potassium is the principle base regulator of aldosterone secretion. When potassium falls, so does the enzyme renin (produced in the kidneys) and thus aldosterone also goes down. When potassium rises, so does renin and aldosterone. Renin will also fall when sodium and chloride levels are up and rise when they are down. Renin also increases in response to decreased renal blood pressure. Renin regulates the conversion of angiotensinogen (a complex amino acid compound made in the liver) to angiotensin I. Angiotensin I (inactive) is acted on by angiotensin-converting-enzyme or ACE (found in the lung capillaries and kidneys) to produce angiotensin II. Angiotensin II is an endocrin, autocrine/paracrine and intracrine hormone. ACE inhibitor drugs (used to lower blood pressure) decrease ACE which in turn decreases the conversion of angiotensin I to angiotensin II and thus lowers aldosterone. Angiotensin II has a direct effect on increased sympathetic activity, sodium and chloride reabsorption, potassium excretion, water retention, arteriolar vasoconstriction and increase in blood pressure, besides acting on the adrenal cortex to release corticosterone and aldosterone. Angiotensin II also acts on the pituitary gland posterior lobe to release antidiuretic hormone (aka vasopressin which is made in the hypothalamus and stored in the posterior pituitary) which also helps the body retain water. I suspect in many cases of hypoaldosteronism, vasopressin is also affected at least a little. Aldosterone tends to get all the credit for the direct regulation of sodium, chloride and potassium, but angiotensin II has just as much a direct role. Recently, it has been found that angiotensin II converts to angiotensin III and IV and that both of these have some aldosterone producing capablity, but only some of the angiotensin II activity, so these don't have as much direct effect on sodium/water retention. ACTH has some effect on aldosterone, but is very minor. The effect can be greatly seen when aldosterone is measured in an acth stimulation test. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------\ -------------------------------------------------------------------- To summarize what happens in healthy renin-angiotensin-aldosterone system: potassium principle regulator of renin (higher potassium-renin raises, lower potassium-renin lowers). Sodium high-aldosterone lowers, sodium low-aldosterone rises. renin converts to angiotensinogen to angiotensin I angiotensin I is converted to angiotensin II by ACE (angiotensin-coverting enzyme) angiotensin II stimulates the adrenals to produce aldosterone --------------------------------------------------------------------------------\ --------------------------------------------------------------------- To summarized what happens in non healthy renin-angiotensin-aldosterone system: In primary AI, aldosterone is not able to be produced properly, so potassium and renin goes up, converting more angiotensinogen to angiotensin I. Angiotensin I is not able to be converted to to much angiotensin II since ACE does not increase In secondary AI, I haven't figured out why potassium, aldosterone and renin go down. When I do I'll edit this. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------\ --------------------------------------------------------------------- LOW ALDOSTERONES EFFECT ON BLOOD PRESSURE When low aldosterone is present, sodium can greatly decrease. In primary AI, potassium and renin increase, but in secondary AI potassium and renin decrease. Both types of AI cause a decrease in sodium which allows water to leave the body through sweating and urination. When this happens, blood volume goes down which can cause low blood pressure, but the heart almost instantly increases pulse and strength of the heart beat to get blood pressure to stay up. In many cases, the heart over compensates and causes high blood pressure. The heart also sends a signal to the adrenals to release more aldosterone. If aldosterone and sodium are extremely low, then sodium and water loss is great enough the heart can't compensate or even over compensate for the low blood pressure, pulse can still be high, but blood pressure will be low. HYPOTHYROIDISMS EFFECT ON THIS MECHANISM Some of you have heard others say that low thyroid causes low renin. My medical books and sources on the net say that low thyroid causes low renin, but if that were true, we'd be seeing much more low renin states than are presenting. From what I've seen, it seems to boil down to whether one is primary or secondary hypoadrenal, with these conditions being 99% predictable for what renin is doing. It may be in the laboratory (where all hormone interactions are verified) that low thyroid can lower renin, but since hypoadrenal state comes in hand in hand with hypothyroidism (I suspect low adrenal state is ignored either purposely or ignorantly in the lab in considering the thyroid-renin interaction) any possible thyroid involvement in renin activity is negated by primary hypoadrenalsim which 99% of the time happens with high renin. Maybe in secondary hypoadrenalism what is presenting is not the adrenals affect on renin, but because pituitary is causing low adrenals, the adrenals are not interferring with the hypothyroid - lowered renin connection. Co-Moderator Phil > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hey Group, > > > > > > > > I'm trying to convince my doc to let me try > florinef. My last > > aldosterone > > > > and renin labs showed that I may need it. He > doesn't want to put me on > > it > > > > though. Is it bad for us? > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > -- > > > > *Mike* > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 5, 2011 Report Share Posted April 5, 2011 Mike, What kind of inflammation I suffer from inflammation in the nerves going to my muscles from being on Statin Drugs. Now that you said this the florinef I have been on for some time might be adding to this. Co-Moderator Phil > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hey Group, > > > > > > > > > > I'm trying to convince my doc to let me > try florinef. My last > > > aldosterone > > > > > and renin labs showed that I may need > it. He doesn't want to put me > > on > > > it > > > > > though. Is it bad for us? > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > *Mike* > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 5, 2011 Report Share Posted April 5, 2011 You need to be way down on sodium and potassium with low aldosterone mine was 6 ng/dl after they took me off florinef after my Heart Bypass before this it test 9. Co-Moderator Phil > > > > > > > > > My aldosterone was 13 and my renin was > like 300 (range ends at 150). > > > > > My sodium was 138 > > > > > My potassium was 3.8 > > > > > Can't remember ranges but they are the > standard ones. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 5, 2011 Report Share Posted April 5, 2011 Nigel, Thanks for saying this about coming down on T3 I get so many posts asking me how to do this and I just don't know what to tell them. I would say you can hold the 12 mcg. of T3 I am on 5 mcgs 3x's day I feel fine on this. I did lower my Test C shot down from 100 mgs every 3 days to 70 mgs then back up to 80 mgs I was told by my Dr. to do this back and forth to slow down the E2 rebound effect and I think it worked I am now holding at 80 mgs and I upped my HCG from 150 IU's to 300 IU's and now do the shot the 2 days each before my Test C shot was doing it just the day before. Co-Moderator Phil > > > > > > > > > > > My aldosterone was 13 and my renin > was like 300 (range ends at > > 150). > > > > > > My sodium was 138 > > > > > > My potassium was 3.8 > > > > > > Can't remember ranges but they are > the standard ones. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 5, 2011 Report Share Posted April 5, 2011 Mike, Your feeling like this might be because your not adding enough NP Thyroid when you lower your T3 and it might be your doing this to fast. Do you put the NP Thyroid under your tongue it works great doing it this way and try to take it 3x's / day. Co-Moderator Phil > > > > > > > > > > > > > My aldosterone was 13 and my > renin was like 300 (range ends at > > > 150). > > > > > > > My sodium was 138 > > > > > > > My potassium was 3.8 > > > > > > > Can't remember ranges but > they are the standard ones. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 5, 2011 Report Share Posted April 5, 2011 Hi Phil, THanks for the suggestion. Yes, I do put it under my tongue; has a sweet taste to it, so it isn't that bad. I was told that this would happen because I was taking a large amount of T3 and now, even on 2 grains, my T3 was significantly reduced and it takes a few weeks for the T4 to start producing the T3 that I need. So, even though it sucks and I'm back in la la land, I was prepared for it. I am, however, going to get completely off ot test cyp for about a month to let things settle down. I still can't take an AI and my test is just converting like mad to E2, so my doc wants me off of it and in the mean time, work on my thyroid and try to come up with a solution to block E2. I think I'm gonna try using Zinc along with GSE. On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 7:52 AM, philip georgian <pmgamer18@...> wrote: > > > Mike, > > Your feeling like this might be because your not adding enough NP Thyroid > when you lower your T3 and it might be your doing this to fast. Do you put > the NP Thyroid under your tongue it works great doing it this way and try to > take it 3x's / day. > Co-Moderator > Phil > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My aldosterone was 13 and my > > renin was like 300 (range ends at > > > > 150). > > > > > > > > My sodium was 138 > > > > > > > > My potassium was 3.8 > > > > > > > > Can't remember ranges but > > they are the standard ones. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 5, 2011 Report Share Posted April 5, 2011 I just posted a link to a cream from a bodybuilding site for lower E2 levels I would try this first. Or do like Dr. is now doing a low 25 mgs dose / day of Clomid. If you come off TRT it will mess up your Thyroid due to the stress you going to have. Try this see if it works first. https://www.mrsupps.com/Products/18/Forma+Stanzol/ Co-Moderator Phil > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My aldosterone was > 13 and my > > > renin was like 300 (range ends at > > > > > 150). > > > > > > > > > My sodium was 138 > > > > > > > > > My potassium was > 3.8 > > > > > > > > > Can't remember > ranges but > > > they are the standard ones. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > *Mike* > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 5, 2011 Report Share Posted April 5, 2011 Phil, There is nothing on there that talks about using it for TRT. How would I dose it? Is it even safe? It was removed from the market for reasons of it being too strong of an anabolic steroid. What do you think? Thanks, Mike On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 8:44 AM, philip georgian <pmgamer18@...> wrote: > > > I just posted a link to a cream from a bodybuilding site for lower E2 > levels I would try this first. Or do like Dr. is now doing a low 25 mgs > dose / day of Clomid. If you come off TRT it will mess up your Thyroid due > to the stress you going to have. Try this see if it works first. > https://www.mrsupps.com/Products/18/Forma+Stanzol/ > > Co-Moderator > Phil > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My aldosterone was > > 13 and my > > > > renin was like 300 (range ends at > > > > > > 150). > > > > > > > > > > My sodium was 138 > > > > > > > > > > My potassium was > > 3.8 > > > > > > > > > > Can't remember > > ranges but > > > > they are the standard ones. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > *Mike* > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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