Re: Optimal Total Testosterone Levels

[Guest guest]

We have talked this to death at Dr. 's forums back in the day. I can't say

what men have for T levels at there younger ages men never get this tested. But

Dr. has found the size of the men has nothing to do with how he feels with

levels. He has big men big boned men that look like they lift weights that only

need levels on TRT in the 500's yet he has thin frail looking men that do good

in the 500's but also has them needing to be up in the upper 800's so he says

the size or weight of the man has nothing to do with what levels he needs to be

tuned up as he calls it.

Now the are 3 body types of men endomorphs, mesomorphs and ectomorphs.

http://www.ehow.com/list_6181976_body-types-men.html

Now it would be great is there was a study showing the levels of Testosterone in

body type. But I have yet to find one.

Some men look like they lift weights and never did them they are like this

normal. Do they have higher testosterone levels no one knows.

As for SHBG when I fist went on TRT this was not measured later on it when I had

lost my sex life to higher levels of Estraidol my SHBG was very high high

Estradiol levels will make your SHBG go higher and this binds up the

testosterone on ones body so it's not working.

As I got my Estraidol levels down my SHBG came down and my Free Testosterone

levels shot way up.

I don't do good with lower levels of TT I need to be over 700 right now in all

this pain I am in my meds are being used up as fast as I take them. So my Dr.

has me doing 100 mgs of Test C every 3 days to keep my levels up. They had

fallen down into the lower 500's for me this is crashing.

I added in Natural Pregnenolone Cream by Life-Flo 15 mgs every morning on 100mgs

of Test C every 3 days my TT, FT and Bio Testosterone levels shot up from the

lower 700's to 1170 over the top of the range. I feel the Preg. cream helped me

from using up my T meds. My Dr. wants to see labs again in 4 weeks before he

lowers my dose.

One thing I do know the levels men feel good on that is made from there body is

not the same as levels from T meds. Men can feel dam good at 450 to 550 not on

TRT but needing meds can need levels up into the upper end of there labs range.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: Barb <baba@...>

> Subject: Optimal Total Testosterone Levels

>

> Date: Thursday, October 21, 2010, 11:30 AM

> I've been thinking about this and

> wanted to think out loud here.  In women, some are

> naturally high estrogen and some low.  The high

> estrogen ones are busty with hourglass figures.  The

> low estrogen ones are like Olympic volleyball players, tall,

> lean, fairly flat.  This is genetic and many of the

> women from the same family will have the same body

> type.  I'm guessing if you were to measure their

> estradiol levels, one type would be high, and the other low,

> but this is NORMAL for them.  Both types can be healthy

> and reproduce.

>

> I would expect the same thing for men.  Some men are

> big, brawny, and muscular.  Others are just not as

> muscular.  And this is whether either type works out or

> not.  In fact, some men who work out just never get

> big, while others bulk up.  I'm assuming this has to do

> with natural testosterone levels. 

>

> Well, if your body type upon graduating high school was

> lean, and all the men in your family are built that way,

> that seems to me to point to a naturally lower testosterone

> level.  I believe how deep your voice is, is another

> indicator.  DH is one of 4 boys, all average height and

> weight, not bulked up, with alto as opposed to bass

> voices.  3/4 have biological kids (1 married too

> late).  So now I'm wondering if this ideal goal to have

> total testosterone around 850+ is just an overdose for some,

> and that's why it's all turning to estradiol.  Dr.

> no says 650 is adequate, and I've found other sites

> that say 500+.

>

> Well, you guys won't believe this, but DH is now taking .1

> ml (20 mg) of TC every 5 days.  His total T tested at

> 862 on day 3 on 32 mg, so I figured he had room to

> lower.  He hasn't crashed yet and actually seems to be

> doing better.  We also added 25 mcg levothyroxine to

> his Erfa thyroid dose to raise his T4 into range, and that

> might be helping him use less TC too. 

>

> Apparently thyroid raises SHBG, and adequate SHBG is

> necessary to make testosterone last.  I believe Dr.

> no said SHBG should be between 30-40.  The lower

> your SHBG, the more often you'll have to dose the

> testosterone.  It seems to me that quite a few of you

> could use thyroid meds too.

>

> He does use a dab of my progesterone on his balls every

> night, so that may be another source of T, don't know. 

> I'd read somewhere that was a good way to counter estrogen.

> It does help him sleep and may also be a source of cortisol

> for him. 

>

> Anyway, just thought I'd share.

>

> Barb

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Phil, thanks for responding. At least you've confirmed that it is possible for

some men to do ok at 500. He is still getting wood and still has way too much

libido (I keep threatening to cut his dose more LOL).

Barb

>

> > From: Barb <baba@...>

> > Subject: Optimal Total Testosterone Levels

> >

> > Date: Thursday, October 21, 2010, 11:30 AM

> > I've been thinking about this and

> > wanted to think out loud here.  In women, some are

> > naturally high estrogen and some low.  The high

> > estrogen ones are busty with hourglass figures.  The

> > low estrogen ones are like Olympic volleyball players, tall,

> > lean, fairly flat.  This is genetic and many of the

> > women from the same family will have the same body

> > type.  I'm guessing if you were to measure their

> > estradiol levels, one type would be high, and the other low,

> > but this is NORMAL for them.  Both types can be healthy

> > and reproduce.

> >

> > I would expect the same thing for men.  Some men are

> > big, brawny, and muscular.  Others are just not as

> > muscular.  And this is whether either type works out or

> > not.  In fact, some men who work out just never get

> > big, while others bulk up.  I'm assuming this has to do

> > with natural testosterone levels. 

> >

> > Well, if your body type upon graduating high school was

> > lean, and all the men in your family are built that way,

> > that seems to me to point to a naturally lower testosterone

> > level.  I believe how deep your voice is, is another

> > indicator.  DH is one of 4 boys, all average height and

> > weight, not bulked up, with alto as opposed to bass

> > voices.  3/4 have biological kids (1 married too

> > late).  So now I'm wondering if this ideal goal to have

> > total testosterone around 850+ is just an overdose for some,

> > and that's why it's all turning to estradiol.  Dr.

> > no says 650 is adequate, and I've found other sites

> > that say 500+.

> >

> > Well, you guys won't believe this, but DH is now taking .1

> > ml (20 mg) of TC every 5 days.  His total T tested at

> > 862 on day 3 on 32 mg, so I figured he had room to

> > lower.  He hasn't crashed yet and actually seems to be

> > doing better.  We also added 25 mcg levothyroxine to

> > his Erfa thyroid dose to raise his T4 into range, and that

> > might be helping him use less TC too. 

> >

> > Apparently thyroid raises SHBG, and adequate SHBG is

> > necessary to make testosterone last.  I believe Dr.

> > no said SHBG should be between 30-40.  The lower

> > your SHBG, the more often you'll have to dose the

> > testosterone.  It seems to me that quite a few of you

> > could use thyroid meds too.

> >

> > He does use a dab of my progesterone on his balls every

> > night, so that may be another source of T, don't know. 

> > I'd read somewhere that was a good way to counter estrogen.

> > It does help him sleep and may also be a source of cortisol

> > for him. 

> >

> > Anyway, just thought I'd share.

> >

> > Barb

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Barb I see feel libido is more about lower levels of Estraidol then higher

levels of Testosterone.

Most of the men that post at the men's health forums with low T and problems

with ED and low libido have high Estradiol levels.

When I first tested my labs for TT were 120 I was in my late 30's and still

needed sex 2 to 3x's a week. Later on TRT in my late 40's I started to have

problems with ED and low libido. I needed to use a penis pump and ring to have

sex I did not feel like having it but felt it was not fair to my wife to just

stop having it. Later I could not even reach an orgasm all this was due to high

Estradiol levels.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: Barb <baba@...>

> Subject: Re: Optimal Total Testosterone Levels

>

> Date: Thursday, October 21, 2010, 7:55 PM

> Phil, thanks for responding.  At

> least you've confirmed that it is possible for some men to

> do ok at 500.  He is still getting wood and still has

> way too much libido (I keep threatening to cut his dose more

> LOL).

>

> Barb

>

>

> >

> > > From: Barb <baba@...>

> > > Subject: Optimal Total

> Testosterone Levels

> > >

> > > Date: Thursday, October 21, 2010, 11:30 AM

> > > I've been thinking about this and

> > > wanted to think out loud here.  In women, some

> are

> > > naturally high estrogen and some low.  The high

> > > estrogen ones are busty with hourglass figures. 

> The

> > > low estrogen ones are like Olympic volleyball

> players, tall,

> > > lean, fairly flat.  This is genetic and many of

> the

> > > women from the same family will have the same

> body

> > > type.  I'm guessing if you were to measure

> their

> > > estradiol levels, one type would be high, and the

> other low,

> > > but this is NORMAL for them.  Both types can be

> healthy

> > > and reproduce.

> > >

> > > I would expect the same thing for men.  Some men

> are

> > > big, brawny, and muscular.  Others are just not

> as

> > > muscular.  And this is whether either type works

> out or

> > > not.  In fact, some men who work out just never

> get

> > > big, while others bulk up.  I'm assuming this

> has to do

> > > with natural testosterone levels. 

> > >

> > > Well, if your body type upon graduating high

> school was

> > > lean, and all the men in your family are built

> that way,

> > > that seems to me to point to a naturally lower

> testosterone

> > > level.  I believe how deep your voice is, is

> another

> > > indicator.  DH is one of 4 boys, all average

> height and

> > > weight, not bulked up, with alto as opposed to

> bass

> > > voices.  3/4 have biological kids (1 married

> too

> > > late).  So now I'm wondering if this ideal goal

> to have

> > > total testosterone around 850+ is just an

> overdose for some,

> > > and that's why it's all turning to estradiol. 

> Dr.

> > > no says 650 is adequate, and I've found

> other sites

> > > that say 500+.

> > >

> > > Well, you guys won't believe this, but DH is now

> taking .1

> > > ml (20 mg) of TC every 5 days.  His total T

> tested at

> > > 862 on day 3 on 32 mg, so I figured he had room

> to

> > > lower.  He hasn't crashed yet and actually seems

> to be

> > > doing better.  We also added 25 mcg

> levothyroxine to

> > > his Erfa thyroid dose to raise his T4 into range,

> and that

> > > might be helping him use less TC too. 

> > >

> > > Apparently thyroid raises SHBG, and adequate SHBG

> is

> > > necessary to make testosterone last.  I believe

> Dr.

> > > no said SHBG should be between 30-40.  The

> lower

> > > your SHBG, the more often you'll have to dose

> the

> > > testosterone.  It seems to me that quite a few

> of you

> > > could use thyroid meds too.

> > >

> > > He does use a dab of my progesterone on his balls

> every

> > > night, so that may be another source of T, don't

> know. 

> > > I'd read somewhere that was a good way to counter

> estrogen.

> > > It does help him sleep and may also be a source

> of cortisol

> > > for him. 

> > >

> > > Anyway, just thought I'd share.

> > >

> > > Barb

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ------------------------------------

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

His first total T tests were 252 and 308, and the second reading was AFTER

bringing up his thyroid (he has had head injuries). At T=308 his estradiol was

27. Then he started creams and then TC shots and estradiol went up, and got as

high as 74, and he was red in the face all the time, just like you described.

Throughout all of this, high or low T, high or normal E, he has never lost his

libido. I think I read on Dr. no's site that libido is primarily from

dopamine, so I guess he's got plenty of that!

But regarding optimal total T, maybe you should recommend a range, like

500-1000, instead of telling everyone they need to be at 800. Yes, 300 is too

low, but 800 may be too much for some. It's just like the 3-5 grain

recommendation for thyroid is too much for many. I feel most optimize between

1.5-3 grain.

JMHO,

Barb

> > >

> > > > From: Barb <baba@>

> > > > Subject: Optimal Total

> > Testosterone Levels

> > > >

> > > > Date: Thursday, October 21, 2010, 11:30 AM

> > > > I've been thinking about this and

> > > > wanted to think out loud here.  In women, some

> > are

> > > > naturally high estrogen and some low.  The high

> > > > estrogen ones are busty with hourglass figures. 

> > The

> > > > low estrogen ones are like Olympic volleyball

> > players, tall,

> > > > lean, fairly flat.  This is genetic and many of

> > the

> > > > women from the same family will have the same

> > body

> > > > type.  I'm guessing if you were to measure

> > their

> > > > estradiol levels, one type would be high, and the

> > other low,

> > > > but this is NORMAL for them.  Both types can be

> > healthy

> > > > and reproduce.

> > > >

> > > > I would expect the same thing for men.  Some men

> > are

> > > > big, brawny, and muscular.  Others are just not

> > as

> > > > muscular.  And this is whether either type works

> > out or

> > > > not.  In fact, some men who work out just never

> > get

> > > > big, while others bulk up.  I'm assuming this

> > has to do

> > > > with natural testosterone levels. 

> > > >

> > > > Well, if your body type upon graduating high

> > school was

> > > > lean, and all the men in your family are built

> > that way,

> > > > that seems to me to point to a naturally lower

> > testosterone

> > > > level.  I believe how deep your voice is, is

> > another

> > > > indicator.  DH is one of 4 boys, all average

> > height and

> > > > weight, not bulked up, with alto as opposed to

> > bass

> > > > voices.  3/4 have biological kids (1 married

> > too

> > > > late).  So now I'm wondering if this ideal goal

> > to have

> > > > total testosterone around 850+ is just an

> > overdose for some,

> > > > and that's why it's all turning to estradiol. 

> > Dr.

> > > > no says 650 is adequate, and I've found

> > other sites

> > > > that say 500+.

> > > >

> > > > Well, you guys won't believe this, but DH is now

> > taking .1

> > > > ml (20 mg) of TC every 5 days.  His total T

> > tested at

> > > > 862 on day 3 on 32 mg, so I figured he had room

> > to

> > > > lower.  He hasn't crashed yet and actually seems

> > to be

> > > > doing better.  We also added 25 mcg

> > levothyroxine to

> > > > his Erfa thyroid dose to raise his T4 into range,

> > and that

> > > > might be helping him use less TC too. 

> > > >

> > > > Apparently thyroid raises SHBG, and adequate SHBG

> > is

> > > > necessary to make testosterone last.  I believe

> > Dr.

> > > > no said SHBG should be between 30-40.  The

> > lower

> > > > your SHBG, the more often you'll have to dose

> > the

> > > > testosterone.  It seems to me that quite a few

> > of you

> > > > could use thyroid meds too.

> > > >

> > > > He does use a dab of my progesterone on his balls

> > every

> > > > night, so that may be another source of T, don't

> > know. 

> > > > I'd read somewhere that was a good way to counter

> > estrogen.

> > > > It does help him sleep and may also be a source

> > of cortisol

> > > > for him. 

> > > >

> > > > Anyway, just thought I'd share.

> > > >

> > > > Barb

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > ------------------------------------

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

Barb, is it possible for a guy to be TOO horny? Horniness is part reason why

we want to live! It's fun!

Sendt fra min iPhone

Den 22. okt. 2010 kl. 18.39 skrev " Barb " <baba@...>:

His first total T tests were 252 and 308, and the second reading was AFTER

bringing up his thyroid (he has had head injuries). At T=308 his estradiol was

27. Then he started creams and then TC shots and estradiol went up, and got as

high as 74, and he was red in the face all the time, just like you described.

Throughout all of this, high or low T, high or normal E, he has never lost his

libido. I think I read on Dr. no's site that libido is primarily from

dopamine, so I guess he's got plenty of that!

But regarding optimal total T, maybe you should recommend a range, like

500-1000, instead of telling everyone they need to be at 800. Yes, 300 is too

low, but 800 may be too much for some. It's just like the 3-5 grain

recommendation for thyroid is too much for many. I feel most optimize between

1.5-3 grain.

JMHO,

Barb

> > >

> > > > From: Barb <baba@>

> > > > Subject: Optimal Total

> > Testosterone Levels

> > > >

> > > > Date: Thursday, October 21, 2010, 11:30 AM

> > > > I've been thinking about this and

> > > > wanted to think out loud here. In women, some

> > are

> > > > naturally high estrogen and some low. The high

> > > > estrogen ones are busty with hourglass figures.

> > The

> > > > low estrogen ones are like Olympic volleyball

> > players, tall,

> > > > lean, fairly flat. This is genetic and many of

> > the

> > > > women from the same family will have the same

> > body

> > > > type. I'm guessing if you were to measure

> > their

> > > > estradiol levels, one type would be high, and the

> > other low,

> > > > but this is NORMAL for them. Both types can be

> > healthy

> > > > and reproduce.

> > > >

> > > > I would expect the same thing for men. Some men

> > are

> > > > big, brawny, and muscular. Others are just not

> > as

> > > > muscular. And this is whether either type works

> > out or

> > > > not. In fact, some men who work out just never

> > get

> > > > big, while others bulk up. I'm assuming this

> > has to do

> > > > with natural testosterone levels.

> > > >

> > > > Well, if your body type upon graduating high

> > school was

> > > > lean, and all the men in your family are built

> > that way,

> > > > that seems to me to point to a naturally lower

> > testosterone

> > > > level. I believe how deep your voice is, is

> > another

> > > > indicator. DH is one of 4 boys, all average

> > height and

> > > > weight, not bulked up, with alto as opposed to

> > bass

> > > > voices. 3/4 have biological kids (1 married

> > too

> > > > late). So now I'm wondering if this ideal goal

> > to have

> > > > total testosterone around 850+ is just an

> > overdose for some,

> > > > and that's why it's all turning to estradiol.

> > Dr.

> > > > no says 650 is adequate, and I've found

> > other sites

> > > > that say 500+.

> > > >

> > > > Well, you guys won't believe this, but DH is now

> > taking .1

> > > > ml (20 mg) of TC every 5 days. His total T

> > tested at

> > > > 862 on day 3 on 32 mg, so I figured he had room

> > to

> > > > lower. He hasn't crashed yet and actually seems

> > to be

> > > > doing better. We also added 25 mcg

> > levothyroxine to

> > > > his Erfa thyroid dose to raise his T4 into range,

> > and that

> > > > might be helping him use less TC too.

> > > >

> > > > Apparently thyroid raises SHBG, and adequate SHBG

> > is

> > > > necessary to make testosterone last. I believe

> > Dr.

> > > > no said SHBG should be between 30-40. The

> > lower

> > > > your SHBG, the more often you'll have to dose

> > the

> > > > testosterone. It seems to me that quite a few

> > of you

> > > > could use thyroid meds too.

> > > >

> > > > He does use a dab of my progesterone on his balls

> > every

> > > > night, so that may be another source of T, don't

> > know.

> > > > I'd read somewhere that was a good way to counter

> > estrogen.

> > > > It does help him sleep and may also be a source

> > of cortisol

> > > > for him.

> > > >

> > > > Anyway, just thought I'd share.

> > > >

> > > > Barb

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > ------------------------------------

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

Of course, I understand that, but yes there are pathological conditions where

guys needs it umpteen times per day, every day and get counseling and/or drugs

for that. DH is NOT at that level, but still . . .

> > > >

> > > > > From: Barb <baba@>

> > > > > Subject: Optimal Total

> > > Testosterone Levels

> > > > >

> > > > > Date: Thursday, October 21, 2010, 11:30 AM

> > > > > I've been thinking about this and

> > > > > wanted to think out loud here. In women, some

> > > are

> > > > > naturally high estrogen and some low. The high

> > > > > estrogen ones are busty with hourglass figures.

> > > The

> > > > > low estrogen ones are like Olympic volleyball

> > > players, tall,

> > > > > lean, fairly flat. This is genetic and many of

> > > the

> > > > > women from the same family will have the same

> > > body

> > > > > type. I'm guessing if you were to measure

> > > their

> > > > > estradiol levels, one type would be high, and the

> > > other low,

> > > > > but this is NORMAL for them. Both types can be

> > > healthy

> > > > > and reproduce.

> > > > >

> > > > > I would expect the same thing for men. Some men

> > > are

> > > > > big, brawny, and muscular. Others are just not

> > > as

> > > > > muscular. And this is whether either type works

> > > out or

> > > > > not. In fact, some men who work out just never

> > > get

> > > > > big, while others bulk up. I'm assuming this

> > > has to do

> > > > > with natural testosterone levels.

> > > > >

> > > > > Well, if your body type upon graduating high

> > > school was

> > > > > lean, and all the men in your family are built

> > > that way,

> > > > > that seems to me to point to a naturally lower

> > > testosterone

> > > > > level. I believe how deep your voice is, is

> > > another

> > > > > indicator. DH is one of 4 boys, all average

> > > height and

> > > > > weight, not bulked up, with alto as opposed to

> > > bass

> > > > > voices. 3/4 have biological kids (1 married

> > > too

> > > > > late). So now I'm wondering if this ideal goal

> > > to have

> > > > > total testosterone around 850+ is just an

> > > overdose for some,

> > > > > and that's why it's all turning to estradiol.

> > > Dr.

> > > > > no says 650 is adequate, and I've found

> > > other sites

> > > > > that say 500+.

> > > > >

> > > > > Well, you guys won't believe this, but DH is now

> > > taking .1

> > > > > ml (20 mg) of TC every 5 days. His total T

> > > tested at

> > > > > 862 on day 3 on 32 mg, so I figured he had room

> > > to

> > > > > lower. He hasn't crashed yet and actually seems

> > > to be

> > > > > doing better. We also added 25 mcg

> > > levothyroxine to

> > > > > his Erfa thyroid dose to raise his T4 into range,

> > > and that

> > > > > might be helping him use less TC too.

> > > > >

> > > > > Apparently thyroid raises SHBG, and adequate SHBG

> > > is

> > > > > necessary to make testosterone last. I believe

> > > Dr.

> > > > > no said SHBG should be between 30-40. The

> > > lower

> > > > > your SHBG, the more often you'll have to dose

> > > the

> > > > > testosterone. It seems to me that quite a few

> > > of you

> > > > > could use thyroid meds too.

> > > > >

> > > > > He does use a dab of my progesterone on his balls

> > > every

> > > > > night, so that may be another source of T, don't

> > > know.

> > > > > I'd read somewhere that was a good way to counter

> > > estrogen.

> > > > > It does help him sleep and may also be a source

> > > of cortisol

> > > > > for him.

> > > > >

> > > > > Anyway, just thought I'd share.

> > > > >

> > > > > Barb

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > ------------------------------------

> > > > >

> > > > >

[Guest guest]

Very interesting thread Barb.

On the female front, my fiancee' is 5'8 " and weighs about 130.

She is not skinny obviously, nor is she fat per se. I can tell that she is of

the 'pear' type though, as her excess weight is not in the stomach area, but in

the upper thighs and her rear!

I have been through a ton of the model types in my younger days, and I am not

into body 'perfection' anymore. Also she is not large in the chest area by any

means. She has asked me a number of times if I wanted her to get

implants,.......my answer was if YOU want them go for it, but don't do it for

me. She has decided not to as her family carries a history of breast cancer.

Myself I am kind of in between as a male. I was never a huge guy, but not a

small guy either. At my best I was 6' tall even, and weighed about 200 pounds.

Quite muscular looking in the ripped category, but not the roid head look. I was

evenly balanced between upper body, and lower also. Used to get many comments

about my legs, and my rear!

My voice is quite deep though, and I used to have a horrible temper under the

right circumstances.

I am now a shell of my former self, but some of the bad things are also gone so

I consider it a trade-off if you know what I mean.

On the sex front I was an 'addict' I think,.....I could go several times per

day. I would have sex when I woke up, sex when I came home, and then again

before going to sleep. Now, it doesn't seem to matter to me anymore. Maybe I

wore out my 'weiner' and it isn't T at all!

>

> Of course, I understand that, but yes there are pathological conditions where

guys needs it umpteen times per day, every day and get counseling and/or drugs

for that. DH is NOT at that level, but still . . .

>

[Guest guest]

Barb,

I find yor post interesting.

I would think it would be more interesting to find out what his level is on day

5, before the shot. Your testing on his peak day, which from what I have read is

day 3 or 4 on Tcyp. I would think, in this case, because of the low dose and

length of time between shots, how low he's going before his shot would be more

important. Just a thought.

I aggree that the one size fits all approach isnt necessarily the way to go. for

the majority, it may be, be there is always exceptions to any rule.

Just curious, does he have to do anything to manage E2, or is it just not a

problem?

>

> I've been thinking about this and wanted to think out loud here. In women,

some are naturally high estrogen and some low. The high estrogen ones are busty

with hourglass figures. The low estrogen ones are like Olympic volleyball

players, tall, lean, fairly flat. This is genetic and many of the women from

the same family will have the same body type. I'm guessing if you were to

measure their estradiol levels, one type would be high, and the other low, but

this is NORMAL for them. Both types can be healthy and reproduce.

>

> I would expect the same thing for men. Some men are big, brawny, and

muscular. Others are just not as muscular. And this is whether either type

works out or not. In fact, some men who work out just never get big, while

others bulk up. I'm assuming this has to do with natural testosterone levels.

>

> Well, if your body type upon graduating high school was lean, and all the men

in your family are built that way, that seems to me to point to a naturally

lower testosterone level. I believe how deep your voice is, is another

indicator. DH is one of 4 boys, all average height and weight, not bulked up,

with alto as opposed to bass voices. 3/4 have biological kids (1 married too

late). So now I'm wondering if this ideal goal to have total testosterone

around 850+ is just an overdose for some, and that's why it's all turning to

estradiol. Dr. no says 650 is adequate, and I've found other sites that

say 500+.

>

> Well, you guys won't believe this, but DH is now taking .1 ml (20 mg) of TC

every 5 days. His total T tested at 862 on day 3 on 32 mg, so I figured he had

room to lower. He hasn't crashed yet and actually seems to be doing better. We

also added 25 mcg levothyroxine to his Erfa thyroid dose to raise his T4 into

range, and that might be helping him use less TC too.

>

> Apparently thyroid raises SHBG, and adequate SHBG is necessary to make

testosterone last. I believe Dr. no said SHBG should be between 30-40.

The lower your SHBG, the more often you'll have to dose the testosterone. It

seems to me that quite a few of you could use thyroid meds too.

>

> He does use a dab of my progesterone on his balls every night, so that may be

another source of T, don't know. I'd read somewhere that was a good way to

counter estrogen. It does help him sleep and may also be a source of cortisol

for him.

>

> Anyway, just thought I'd share.

>

> Barb

>

[Guest guest]

I use what Life E had in this link saying men on TRT need levels up into the

upper 1/3 of the labs range for a younger man to start most do great following

this.

And to keep Estraidol levels down to between 10 to 30 best at 20 pg/ml.

http://www.griffinmedical.com/male_hormone_modulation_therapy.html

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: Barb <baba@...>

> Subject: Re: Optimal Total Testosterone Levels

>

> Date: Friday, October 22, 2010, 12:39 PM

> His first total T tests were 252 and

> 308, and the second reading was AFTER bringing up his

> thyroid (he has had head injuries).  At T=308 his

> estradiol was 27.  Then he started creams and then TC

> shots and estradiol went up, and got as high as 74, and he

> was red in the face all the time, just like you

> described.  Throughout all of this, high or low T, high

> or normal E, he has never lost his libido.  I think I

> read on Dr. no's site that libido is primarily from

> dopamine, so I guess he's got plenty of that!

>

> But regarding optimal total T, maybe you should recommend a

> range, like 500-1000, instead of telling everyone they need

> to be at 800. Yes, 300 is too low, but 800 may be too much

> for some. It's just like the 3-5 grain recommendation for

> thyroid is too much for many. I feel most optimize between

> 1.5-3 grain.

>

> JMHO,

> Barb

>

>

> > > >

> > > > > From: Barb <baba@>

> > > > > Subject: Optimal Total

> > > Testosterone Levels

> > > > >

> > > > > Date: Thursday, October 21, 2010, 11:30

> AM

> > > > > I've been thinking about this and

> > > > > wanted to think out loud here.  In

> women, some

> > > are

> > > > > naturally high estrogen and some low. 

> The high

> > > > > estrogen ones are busty with hourglass

> figures. 

> > > The

> > > > > low estrogen ones are like Olympic

> volleyball

> > > players, tall,

> > > > > lean, fairly flat.  This is genetic

> and many of

> > > the

> > > > > women from the same family will have

> the same

> > > body

> > > > > type.  I'm guessing if you were to

> measure

> > > their

> > > > > estradiol levels, one type would be

> high, and the

> > > other low,

> > > > > but this is NORMAL for them.  Both

> types can be

> > > healthy

> > > > > and reproduce.

> > > > >

> > > > > I would expect the same thing for

> men.  Some men

> > > are

> > > > > big, brawny, and muscular.  Others are

> just not

> > > as

> > > > > muscular.  And this is whether either

> type works

> > > out or

> > > > > not.  In fact, some men who work out

> just never

> > > get

> > > > > big, while others bulk up.  I'm

> assuming this

> > > has to do

> > > > > with natural testosterone levels. 

> > > > >

> > > > > Well, if your body type upon graduating

> high

> > > school was

> > > > > lean, and all the men in your family

> are built

> > > that way,

> > > > > that seems to me to point to a

> naturally lower

> > > testosterone

> > > > > level.  I believe how deep your voice

> is, is

> > > another

> > > > > indicator.  DH is one of 4 boys, all

> average

> > > height and

> > > > > weight, not bulked up, with alto as

> opposed to

> > > bass

> > > > > voices.  3/4 have biological kids (1

> married

> > > too

> > > > > late).  So now I'm wondering if this

> ideal goal

> > > to have

> > > > > total testosterone around 850+ is just

> an

> > > overdose for some,

> > > > > and that's why it's all turning to

> estradiol. 

> > > Dr.

> > > > > no says 650 is adequate, and I've

> found

> > > other sites

> > > > > that say 500+.

> > > > >

> > > > > Well, you guys won't believe this, but

> DH is now

> > > taking .1

> > > > > ml (20 mg) of TC every 5 days.  His

> total T

> > > tested at

> > > > > 862 on day 3 on 32 mg, so I figured he

> had room

> > > to

> > > > > lower.  He hasn't crashed yet and

> actually seems

> > > to be

> > > > > doing better.  We also added 25 mcg

> > > levothyroxine to

> > > > > his Erfa thyroid dose to raise his T4

> into range,

> > > and that

> > > > > might be helping him use less TC too. 

>

> > > > >

> > > > > Apparently thyroid raises SHBG, and

> adequate SHBG

> > > is

> > > > > necessary to make testosterone last. 

> I believe

> > > Dr.

> > > > > no said SHBG should be between

> 30-40.  The

> > > lower

> > > > > your SHBG, the more often you'll have

> to dose

> > > the

> > > > > testosterone.  It seems to me that

> quite a few

> > > of you

> > > > > could use thyroid meds too.

> > > > >

> > > > > He does use a dab of my progesterone on

> his balls

> > > every

> > > > > night, so that may be another source of

> T, don't

> > > know. 

> > > > > I'd read somewhere that was a good way

> to counter

> > > estrogen.

> > > > > It does help him sleep and may also be

> a source

> > > of cortisol

> > > > > for him. 

> > > > >

> > > > > Anyway, just thought I'd share.

> > > > >

> > > > > Barb

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > ------------------------------------

> > > > >

> > > > >

[Guest guest]

I specifically did his labs on day 3, to catch the peak, because I thought that

was part of the problem. Measuring him on day 5 might find him in range, but

how did I know he didn't go way over at the peak, and THAT was the cause of the

estradiol conversion problem? In fact, his highest estradiol of 74 was when his

total T was 1047 on 60 mg TC, measured on day 2 of 5. As I mentioned, he's now

taking 20 mg and I'm hoping that has brought the estradiol down. He is due for

labs in a couple of weeks and I'm curious to see his numbers.

He takes one DIM at dinner each night, but that is all. Since we're free to

adjust his dose, if he/I felt he was going too low, we could certainly shoot him

on day 4, but so far, he has had wood all the way through day 5 and doesn't seem

like he's crashing.

Barb

" master_trancer " <master_trancer@...> wrote:

>

> Barb,

>

> I find yor post interesting.

>

> I would think it would be more interesting to find out what his level is on

day 5, before the shot. Your testing on his peak day, which from what I have

read is day 3 or 4 on Tcyp. I would think, in this case, because of the low dose

and length of time between shots, how low he's going before his shot would be

more important. Just a thought.

>

> I aggree that the one size fits all approach isnt necessarily the way to go.

for the majority, it may be, be there is always exceptions to any rule.

>

> Just curious, does he have to do anything to manage E2, or is it just not a

problem?

>

>

>

>

>

>

> >

> > I've been thinking about this and wanted to think out loud here. In women,

some are naturally high estrogen and some low. The high estrogen ones are busty

with hourglass figures. The low estrogen ones are like Olympic volleyball

players, tall, lean, fairly flat. This is genetic and many of the women from

the same family will have the same body type. I'm guessing if you were to

measure their estradiol levels, one type would be high, and the other low, but

this is NORMAL for them. Both types can be healthy and reproduce.

> >

> > I would expect the same thing for men. Some men are big, brawny, and

muscular. Others are just not as muscular. And this is whether either type

works out or not. In fact, some men who work out just never get big, while

others bulk up. I'm assuming this has to do with natural testosterone levels.

> >

> > Well, if your body type upon graduating high school was lean, and all the

men in your family are built that way, that seems to me to point to a naturally

lower testosterone level. I believe how deep your voice is, is another

indicator. DH is one of 4 boys, all average height and weight, not bulked up,

with alto as opposed to bass voices. 3/4 have biological kids (1 married too

late). So now I'm wondering if this ideal goal to have total testosterone

around 850+ is just an overdose for some, and that's why it's all turning to

estradiol. Dr. no says 650 is adequate, and I've found other sites that

say 500+.

> >

> > Well, you guys won't believe this, but DH is now taking .1 ml (20 mg) of TC

every 5 days. His total T tested at 862 on day 3 on 32 mg, so I figured he had

room to lower. He hasn't crashed yet and actually seems to be doing better. We

also added 25 mcg levothyroxine to his Erfa thyroid dose to raise his T4 into

range, and that might be helping him use less TC too.

> >

> > Apparently thyroid raises SHBG, and adequate SHBG is necessary to make

testosterone last. I believe Dr. no said SHBG should be between 30-40.

The lower your SHBG, the more often you'll have to dose the testosterone. It

seems to me that quite a few of you could use thyroid meds too.

> >

> > He does use a dab of my progesterone on his balls every night, so that may

be another source of T, don't know. I'd read somewhere that was a good way to

counter estrogen. It does help him sleep and may also be a source of cortisol

for him.

> >

> > Anyway, just thought I'd share.

> >

> > Barb

> >

>

[Guest guest]

But DH is not overweight except for maybe 10 lbs? My theory is that those guys

taking 200 mgs were naturally high testosterone guys anyway, so their body

actually uses it all. I liken the testosterone -> estradiol problem to the FT3

-> rT3 problem. It's the body's overflow valve to take care of excess.

Even women have estradiol limits, and it's discussed in many HRT books. The

reason you can't just give a standard dose to everyone is because some women are

naturally high and others naturally low. If they go above or below their norm,

they become symptomatic. Too high and they get short-tempered, water retention,

painful breasts, etc. Too low and they get fatigue, insomnia, dry up, etc.

My point was that we each probably have a pretty narrow range for optimal

hormone levels on ALL hormones. I've heard of people taking 12 grains of

thyroid, and DH and I both take about 2. I am also a very low doser on estrogen

and progesterone, but it's obviously working cause I don't look my age and got

rid of the symptoms.

Barb

philip georgian <pmgamer18@...> wrote:

> So age weight low muscle make for higher Aromatase this makes Estradiol. I

know men doing 200 mgs at forums that don't have high Estradiol and don't need

anything to keep it down.

[Guest guest]

I am Klinefelters Mosaic. Since puberity & boobs, I have had high E2 & low

Testosterone. This was my natural state. In later years I discovered this &

started hormone corrections as have been discussed here. I feel much better with

800 T & 35 E2, & Not 120 T & 84 E2.

>

> > So age weight low muscle make for higher Aromatase this makes Estradiol. I

know men doing 200 mgs at forums that don't have high Estradiol and don't need

anything to keep it down.

>