Re: Thyroid Med Equivalencies

[Guest guest]

Good Point Barb,

I was just reading something about this and it's the last link in the reply I

did. Still every time I read Gail's site I can't help but think she is on to

something about needing T2 and T1.

http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/w/u/wurmstei/

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: Barb <baba@...>

> Subject: Thyroid Med Equivalencies

>

> Date: Wednesday, April 6, 2011, 11:16 AM

> This is a true case of comparing

> apples to oranges.  Since everyone's T4 to T3

> conversion rate must be different, everyone will have a

> different equivalency.  I did find one study that

> concluded that on average, T3 was 3x more potent than

> T4.  If that is YOUR conversion rate, then 1 grain has

> 9 mcg T3, and you multiply it by 3 to get 27 mcg T4

> equivalent.  Add 27 to the 38 mcg T4 already in the 1

> grain, and you get a T4 equivalent of 65 mcg for 1

> grain.  You can only compare doses by converting

> everything to one base, like a T4 equivalent.  So . . .

>

> 1 grain ~ 65 mcg T4

> 22 mcg T3 ~ 66 mcg T4

>

> An average thyroid puts out 100 mcg T4 and 6 mcg T3. 

> You should have to take more than this, how much more

> depends on your absorption and conversion.  I am doing

> pretty good on 120 mcg T4 and 10 mcg T3 right now.

>

> HTH,

> Barb

>

>

> > >

> > > > From: Nigel <nachonigel@...>

> > >

> > >

> > > > Subject: Re: florinef

> question

> > > >

> > > > Date: Tuesday, April 5, 2011, 5:52 PM

> > >

> > >

> > > > Mike, salt water won't effectively

> > > > raise your serum sodium level. Sodium

> > > > level is tied to sod...

> > >

> > > > ------------------------------------

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

I completely agree with Gail, which is why I think NDT should always be used as

a base, and then T4 or T3 added as needed for an individual's needs. I know

Medco gave you a hard time about the NP Thyroid, but I would check into it every

few months. She said both she and her sister's fibromyalgia pain disappeared

once they started Armour. And her sister was taking 100 mcg of T3, so it

certainly wasn't because she was low in T3! I know your pain is from statins,

but I don't know if being still low in T2 and/or T3 is not contributing.

> > > >

> > > > > From: Nigel <nachonigel@>

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > > Subject: Re: florinef

> > question

> > > > >

> > > > > Date: Tuesday, April 5, 2011, 5:52 PM

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > > Mike, salt water won't effectively

> > > > > raise your serum sodium level. Sodium

> > > > > level is tied to sod...

> > > >

> > > > > ------------------------------------

> > > > >

> > > > >

[Guest guest]

Barb, are you on natural plus T4?

T2 drives metabolism and since it's not factored in with those conversion

charts I think it's even harder to guess how many micrograms of T3 will

equal a grain of natural. Like I've discovered, it seems like a grain of

natural is more powerful than 25 mcg T3. I'm definitely feeling warmer than

before.

-Nigel

On 6 April 2011 11:14, Barb <baba@...> wrote:

>

>

> I completely agree with Gail, which is why I think NDT should always be

> used as a base, and then T4 or T3 added as needed for an individual's needs.

> I know Medco gave you a hard time about the NP Thyroid, but I would check

> into it every few months. She said both she and her sister's fibromyalgia

> pain disappeared once they started Armour. And her sister was taking 100 mcg

> of T3, so it certainly wasn't because she was low in T3! I know your pain is

> from statins, but I don't know if being still low in T2 and/or T3 is not

> contributing.

>

>

>

> > > > >

> > > > > > From: Nigel <nachonigel@>

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > Subject: Re: florinef

> > > question

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Date: Tuesday, April 5, 2011, 5:52 PM

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > Mike, salt water won't effectively

> > > > > > raise your serum sodium level. Sodium

> > > > > > level is tied to sod...

> > > > >

> > > > > > ------------------------------------

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

[Guest guest]

Yes, 1.25 grain Erfa + 75 mcg T4 (generic by Mylan). DH might end up moving to

the same dose. He's currently on 1.5 + 50.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > From: Nigel <nachonigel@>

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > Subject: Re: florinef

> > > > question

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Date: Tuesday, April 5, 2011, 5:52 PM

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > Mike, salt water won't effectively

> > > > > > > raise your serum sodium level. Sodium

> > > > > > > level is tied to sod...

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > ------------------------------------

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

[Guest guest]

That was my point when I told my Dr. I wanted to try NP Thyroid. I am going to

press this issue with him when I see him in 6 weeks. 12 weeks ago we added more

T3 went from 5 mcgs. 2x's / day to 3 yet my labs came back Quest did not do my

Free T3 this happens off and on but to have it happen when I change a dose I get

mad about it.

I need to address every and any thing that might cause joint and muscle pain. I

even stopped some of my meds that had this listed as a side effect. When

nothing got better I went back on them.

I know it's the Statin Drugs because from the time I got out of ICU I had this

pain and there telling me it's from being in a coma 13 weeks and to keep

exercising was only doing more damage. Statin Drugs lower your CoQ10 and other

things and when you put a load on your muscles it dose damage.

I have been walking in a pool for 2 weeks now and I see no change in my pain or

strength.

But then I am not worse.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: Barb <baba@...>

> Subject: Re: Thyroid Med Equivalencies

>

> Date: Wednesday, April 6, 2011, 12:14 PM

> I completely agree with Gail, which

> is why I think NDT should always be used as a base, and then

> T4 or T3 added as needed for an individual's needs.  I

> know Medco gave you a hard time about the NP Thyroid, but I

> would check into it every few months.  She said both

> she and her sister's fibromyalgia pain disappeared once they

> started Armour.  And her sister was taking 100 mcg of

> T3, so it certainly wasn't because she was low in T3! 

> I know your pain is from statins, but I don't know if being

> still low in T2 and/or T3 is not contributing.

>

>

>

> > > > >

> > > > > > From: Nigel <nachonigel@>

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > Subject: Re:

> florinef

> > > question

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Date: Tuesday, April 5, 2011, 5:52

> PM

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > Mike, salt water won't

> effectively

> > > > > > raise your serum sodium level.

> Sodium

> > > > > > level is tied to sod...

> > > > >

> > > > > >

> ------------------------------------

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

[Guest guest]

And no T3 thats what I am thinking about.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: Barb <baba@...>

> Subject: Re: Thyroid Med Equivalencies

>

> Date: Wednesday, April 6, 2011, 12:44 PM

> Yes, 1.25 grain Erfa + 75 mcg T4

> (generic by Mylan).  DH might end up moving to the same

> dose.  He's currently on 1.5 + 50.

>

>

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > From: Nigel

> <nachonigel@>

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Subject: Re:

> florinef

> > > > > question

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Date: Tuesday, April 5,

> 2011, 5:52 PM

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Mike, salt water won't

> effectively

> > > > > > > > raise your serum sodium

> level. Sodium

> > > > > > > > level is tied to sod...

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> ------------------------------------

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

[Guest guest]

I gotta tell you Barb, that although I'm tired all of the time b/c I'm

letting my body adjust, I already feel much better. Thanks for convincing me

to switch.

On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 9:16 AM, Barb <baba@...> wrote:

>

>

> This is a true case of comparing apples to oranges. Since everyone's T4 to

> T3 conversion rate must be different, everyone will have a different

> equivalency. I did find one study that concluded that on average, T3 was 3x

> more potent than T4. If that is YOUR conversion rate, then 1 grain has 9 mcg

> T3, and you multiply it by 3 to get 27 mcg T4 equivalent. Add 27 to the 38

> mcg T4 already in the 1 grain, and you get a T4 equivalent of 65 mcg for 1

> grain. You can only compare doses by converting everything to one base, like

> a T4 equivalent. So . . .

> 1 grain ~ 65 mcg T4

> 22 mcg T3 ~ 66 mcg T4

>

> An average thyroid puts out 100 mcg T4 and 6 mcg T3. You should have to

> take more than this, how much more depends on your absorption and

> conversion. I am doing pretty good on 120 mcg T4 and 10 mcg T3 right now.

>

> HTH,

> Barb

>

>

> > >

> > > > From: Nigel <nachonigel@...>

> > >

> > >

> > > > Subject: Re: florinef question

> > > >

> > > > Date: Tuesday, April 5, 2011, 5:52 PM

> > >

> > >

> > > > Mike, salt water won't effectively

> > > > raise your serum sodium level. Sodium

> > > > level is tied to sod...

> > >

> > > > ------------------------------------

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

So glad to hear you're doing better! It was my hope that someone would benefit

from all the mistakes DH and I have made in the School of Hard Knocks.

Barb

> > > >

> > > > > From: Nigel <nachonigel@>

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > > Subject: Re: florinef question

> > > > >

> > > > > Date: Tuesday, April 5, 2011, 5:52 PM

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > > Mike, salt water won't effectively

> > > > > raise your serum sodium level. Sodium

> > > > > level is tied to sod...

> > > >

> > > > > ------------------------------------

> > > > >

> > > > >

[Guest guest]

How much T3 were you and DH on before you made the switch?

On Thu, Apr 7, 2011 at 8:35 AM, Barb <baba@...> wrote:

>

>

> So glad to hear you're doing better! It was my hope that someone would

> benefit from all the mistakes DH and I have made in the School of Hard

> Knocks.

>

> Barb

>

>

>

> > > > >

> > > > > > From: Nigel <nachonigel@>

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > Subject: Re: florinef question

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Date: Tuesday, April 5, 2011, 5:52 PM

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > Mike, salt water won't effectively

> > > > > > raise your serum sodium level. Sodium

> > > > > > level is tied to sod...

> > > > >

> > > > > > ------------------------------------

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

[Guest guest]

Interestingly, DH has never had high rT3 labs, and mine have always been high.

I was already skeptical of T3-only treatment, but didn't see any reason not to

combine the two with a heavier weight on T3. So I went down to 1 grain + 25 mcg

T3 at the max. That's when I had all that cognitive dysfunction and couldn't

even add/subtract or remember something I posted two minutes ago. Right after

that, I started dropping the T3 and raising the NDT again. But as I now know,

100% NDT is not right for me either.

Barb

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > From: Nigel <nachonigel@>

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > Subject: Re: florinef question

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Date: Tuesday, April 5, 2011, 5:52 PM

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > Mike, salt water won't effectively

> > > > > > > raise your serum sodium level. Sodium

> > > > > > > level is tied to sod...

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > ------------------------------------

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

[Guest guest]

During all of this were you on Erfa's Thyroid?

Have you ever taken old Armour and if so, did you have the same high FT3/low

FT4 at relatively low doses?

I'm now off all T3 since today. I'm on 3.75 grains Nature-Throid. Won't do

labs yet, but I can already tell my T4 is higher and I feel better.

-Nigel

On 7 April 2011 09:43, Barb <baba@...> wrote:

>

>

> Interestingly, DH has never had high rT3 labs, and mine have always been

> high. I was already skeptical of T3-only treatment, but didn't see any

> reason not to combine the two with a heavier weight on T3. So I went down to

> 1 grain + 25 mcg T3 at the max. That's when I had all that cognitive

> dysfunction and couldn't even add/subtract or remember something I posted

> two minutes ago. Right after that, I started dropping the T3 and raising the

> NDT again. But as I now know, 100% NDT is not right for me either.

>

> Barb

>

[Guest guest]

Yes, have taken old Armour, NT, then Erfa, in that order. rT3 has been high on

all three and labs always are high FT3 relative to FT4.

If I were you, I wouldn't add any T4 just yet, but rather hold and then test on

straight NT, to get a reading of your current conversion.

>

> >

> >

> > Interestingly, DH has never had high rT3 labs, and mine have always been

> > high. I was already skeptical of T3-only treatment, but didn't see any

> > reason not to combine the two with a heavier weight on T3. So I went down to

> > 1 grain + 25 mcg T3 at the max. That's when I had all that cognitive

> > dysfunction and couldn't even add/subtract or remember something I posted

> > two minutes ago. Right after that, I started dropping the T3 and raising the

> > NDT again. But as I now know, 100% NDT is not right for me either.

> >

> > Barb

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

That's what I'm going to do. I suspect I'm still getting too much direct T3

taking almost 4 grains, but I'm not that worried as I already feel better

with more T4 from taking more desiccated (.75 gr more) and dropping the 25

mcg T3.

Your husband on 1.5 gr Thyroid by Erfa and 50 mcg T4, has he done labs on

this dose? What are they showing?

-Nigel

On 7 April 2011 16:51, Barb <baba@...> wrote:

>

>

> Yes, have taken old Armour, NT, then Erfa, in that order. rT3 has been high

> on all three and labs always are high FT3 relative to FT4.

>

> If I were you, I wouldn't add any T4 just yet, but rather hold and then

> test on straight NT, to get a reading of your current conversion.

>

>

> >

> > >

> > >

> > > Interestingly, DH has never had high rT3 labs, and mine have always

> been

> > > high. I was already skeptical of T3-only treatment, but didn't see any

> > > reason not to combine the two with a heavier weight on T3. So I went

> down to

> > > 1 grain + 25 mcg T3 at the max. That's when I had all that cognitive

> > > dysfunction and couldn't even add/subtract or remember something I

> posted

> > > two minutes ago. Right after that, I started dropping the T3 and

> raising the

> > > NDT again. But as I now know, 100% NDT is not right for me either.

> > >

> > > Barb

>

>

[Guest guest]

His last labs were on 1.75 gr + 50 T4, about 9 hours after last dose

Total T4 8.7 (4.5-12)

FT4 1.4 (.8-1.8)

Total T3 150 (76-181)

FT3 4.4 (2.3-4.2)

Because FT3 was over range, I dropped him to 1.5 gr + 50. This might've brought

his F/Total T4 down too, so I'm thinking next move might be to 1.25 gr + 75, if

his next labs suggest that might be a better combo.

> > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Interestingly, DH has never had high rT3 labs, and mine have always

> > been

> > > > high. I was already skeptical of T3-only treatment, but didn't see any

> > > > reason not to combine the two with a heavier weight on T3. So I went

> > down to

> > > > 1 grain + 25 mcg T3 at the max. That's when I had all that cognitive

> > > > dysfunction and couldn't even add/subtract or remember something I

> > posted

> > > > two minutes ago. Right after that, I started dropping the T3 and

> > raising the

> > > > NDT again. But as I now know, 100% NDT is not right for me either.

> > > >

> > > > Barb

> >

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Nigel,

When I was on 4 grains of the old Armour I was hyper and did not know it right

on the edge. My Free T3 was 3.9 Free T4 was 1.1 on the low side but NTH meds do

this we are low end for Free T4.

There are Dr.'s that say if your need more then 3 grains and feel 3 is very high

some thing is wrong that is not letting to NTH meds into your body mostly gut

problems.

Co-Moderator

Phil

>

> >

> >

> > Yes, have taken old Armour, NT, then Erfa, in that

> order. rT3 has been high

> > on all three and labs always are high FT3 relative to

> FT4.

> >

> > If I were you, I wouldn't add any T4 just yet, but

> rather hold and then

> > test on straight NT, to get a reading of your current

> conversion.

> >

> >

> > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Interestingly, DH has never had high rT3

> labs, and mine have always

> > been

> > > > high. I was already skeptical of T3-only

> treatment, but didn't see any

> > > > reason not to combine the two with a heavier

> weight on T3. So I went

> > down to

> > > > 1 grain + 25 mcg T3 at the max. That's when

> I had all that cognitive

> > > > dysfunction and couldn't even add/subtract

> or remember something I

> > posted

> > > > two minutes ago. Right after that, I started

> dropping the T3 and

> > raising the

> > > > NDT again. But as I now know, 100% NDT is

> not right for me either.

> > > >

> >  > > Barb

> >

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yes your DH body loves the NTH and is converting it big time into T3.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: Barb <baba@...>

> Subject: Re: Thyroid Med Equivalencies

>

> Date: Thursday, April 7, 2011, 9:53 PM

> His last labs were on 1.75 gr + 50

> T4, about 9 hours after last dose

> Total T4 8.7 (4.5-12)

> FT4 1.4 (.8-1.8)

> Total T3 150 (76-181)

> FT3 4.4 (2.3-4.2)

>

> Because FT3 was over range, I dropped him to 1.5 gr +

> 50.  This might've brought his F/Total T4 down too, so

> I'm thinking next move might be to 1.25 gr + 75, if his next

> labs suggest that might be a better combo.

>

>

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Interestingly, DH has never had high

> rT3 labs, and mine have always

> > > been

> > > > > high. I was already skeptical of

> T3-only treatment, but didn't see any

> > > > > reason not to combine the two with a

> heavier weight on T3. So I went

> > > down to

> > > > > 1 grain + 25 mcg T3 at the max. That's

> when I had all that cognitive

> > > > > dysfunction and couldn't even

> add/subtract or remember something I

> > > posted

> > > > > two minutes ago. Right after that, I

> started dropping the T3 and

> > > raising the

> > > > > NDT again. But as I now know, 100% NDT

> is not right for me either.

> > > > >

> > >  > > Barb

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Phil, I still think I'm getting too much direct T3. I am on less now as I've

stopped additional T3.

I am feeling better on just natural thyroid now and with taking a little

more due to getting T4 up. I'm not sleeping as much. Even on lots of T3 I

found myself still sleeping about 9 hours a night.

-Nigel

On 8 April 2011 08:50, philip georgian <pmgamer18@...> wrote:

>

>

> Nigel,

> When I was on 4 grains of the old Armour I was hyper and did not know it

> right on the edge. My Free T3 was 3.9 Free T4 was 1.1 on the low side but

> NTH meds do this we are low end for Free T4.

>

> There are Dr.'s that say if your need more then 3 grains and feel 3 is very

> high some thing is wrong that is not letting to NTH meds into your body

> mostly gut problems.

> Co-Moderator

> Phil

>

[Guest guest]

Low Iron can do this.

Co-Moderator

Phil

>

> >

> >

> > Nigel,

> > When I was on 4 grains of the old Armour I was hyper

> and did not know it

> > right on the edge. My Free T3 was 3.9 Free T4 was 1.1

> on the low side but

> > NTH meds do this we are low end for Free T4.

> >

> > There are Dr.'s that say if your need more then 3

> grains and feel 3 is very

> > high some thing is wrong that is not letting to NTH

> meds into your body

> > mostly gut problems.

> > Co-Moderator

> > Phil

> >

>

>

>