small ones also

[Guest guest]

55 yr old here and I've been on Testim for four yrs. Everything is fine except

the boys have gone into retirement. I have tried several brands of hcg from ADC

and have not noticed any change in size. The only thing hcg does for me is make

me insanely horny which is a great response by itself but nothing size wise. Any

suggestions for this because its no fun to show off grapes to my girl friend.

Also can someone explain why Arimidex is better than Nolvadex? Nolvadex is much

cheaper but doesn't get recommended on this forum. I've been on DIM for four

years as well.

Thanks

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 10/14/2010 1:36:13 P.M. Central Daylight Time,

pmgamer18@... writes:

Clomiphene (Clomid, Serophene, Omifin) is used to do a stim. test to see

if ones Testis work it will force the brain to make more LH and FSH this

tells the testis to make more T. But it's not use in men on TRT using it is a

big mistake. One one hand the T is shutting down your LH and FSH message

then if you add Tamoxifen (Nolvadex)to the mix it's like giving the brain a

mixed message doing this can make your body go nuts trying to fix this.

Phil..........would you recommend Clomiphene for a guy like me who is

I. Not on TRT

2. Taking a quarter tablet of Arimidex every four days to lower

estrogen (and getting better nighttime and

morning wood)

3. Has smaller balls in the process of this regimen

4. Would like my libido to be higher.

If you would recommend it for me given what you know about aging men and

Testosterone, what amount would you take of Clomiphene and how often would

you take it. I have some Clomiphene on hand but have never taken it.

Thank you man for your help. Again, I am 63 and trying to battle lower T

levels and higher E level naturally with natural products (ISA-Test) and a

quarter tablet every four days for Estrogen lowering .........also lots of

exercise and weight training daily.

Cotton

[Guest guest]

Maybe your Primary were your testis small before you went on TRT. It might be

your T levels are low because your testis don't work. What kind of HCG did you

buy and how much did you use.

Does not lower Estradiol and can make it go higher the thing about using this is

it is not tested for long term use. And you need to be off it a long long time

to get good labs for Estradiol.

In the passed we have talked this into the ground.

Clomiphene (Clomid, Serophene, Omifin) is used to do a stim. test to see if ones

Testis work it will force the brain to make more LH and FSH this tells the

testis to make more T. But it's not use in men on TRT using it is a big mistake.

One one hand the T is shutting down your LH and FSH message then if you add

Tamoxifen (Nolvadex)to the mix it's like giving the brain a mixed message doing

this can make your body go nuts trying to fix this.

Men that use this were doing steroids and are off them having high levels of E's

not on TRT that take it to jump start there body again.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: volusia40 <volusia40@...>

> Subject: small ones also

>

> Date: Thursday, October 14, 2010, 5:33 AM

> 55 yr old here and I've been on

> Testim for four yrs. Everything is fine except the boys have

> gone into retirement. I have tried several brands of hcg

> from ADC and have not noticed any change in size. The only

> thing hcg does for me is make me insanely horny which is a

> great response by itself but nothing size wise. Any

> suggestions for this because its no fun to show off grapes

> to my girl friend. Also can someone explain why Arimidex is

> better than Nolvadex? Nolvadex is much cheaper but doesn't

> get recommended on this forum. I've been on DIM for four

> years as well.

>

> Thanks

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

OK just for you Cottonfarm,

Here is a cut and paste about the us of this stuff. I would say try it at the

lower dose see how you do. Some men are on this not many most can take the

sides. And keeping there T levels up. If you feel like your having PMS or you

start crying at sad movies see flooters in your eyes stop taking it.

The following is from Dr. 's forum here is the link if you are a member.

http://www.musclechatroom.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14659 & highlight=Clomiphene

====================================================

Restore HPTA via Nolvadex (Tamoxifen)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How often do you guys see this happen by people on HRT who try?

Ive been on TRT for about 5 years and thinking about trying it, but havent heard

of much success on any message boards...

moonman

#2 08-03-2010

Re: Restore HPTA via Nolvadex (Tamoxifen)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by moonman

How often do you guys see this happen by people on HRT who try?

Ive been on TRT for about 5 years and thinking about trying it, but havent heard

of much success on any message boards...

I think you may have just answered your own question.

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#3 08-03-2010

Re: Restore HPTA via Nolvadex (Tamoxifen)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am interested in this too. Clomid has traditionally been used for this but

there are reasons why Nolvadex would probably be better than Clomid.

In the BB community I think Nolvadex is becoming the preferred PCT drug,

replacing Clomid. However, the formal medical community is always a few years

behind the BB people, which is why the available formal research is on Clomid.

So I think the reason you are not finding a lot of stories is simply because of

a lack of prior art, not because it is any worse.

However, Nolvadex should be better than Clomid because it has somewhat less side

effects (especially the emotional side effects), it has a better track record

for long-term safety than Clomid (it is typically used long-term for cancer in

women, whereas Clomid is a short-term fertility drug), and it does not appear to

desensitize the pituitary to GnRH, wheras Clomid has been shown to do this.

Nolvadex is certainly a very effective drug for raising Testosterone while on

it.

The following research does not address restarts, but it is relevant:

Quote:

Int J Sports Med. 1995 Aug;16(6):413-7.

Hypogonadism as a cause of recurrent muscle injury in a high level soccer

player. A case report.

Naessens G, De Slypere JP, Dijs H, Driessens M.

Department of Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation, University Hospital Antwerp,

Edegem, Belgium.

Abstract

Hypogonadotropic hypogonadism is a well known entity in highly trained female

athletes. In male sportsmen, resting testosterone levels may be lowered

especially in well endurance trained athletes and during high intensity training

periods, frequently in combination with excessive weight reduction. However,

only few reports illustrate a clinical pathology related to this state. In this

report, where we present a case of a high level soccer player with recurrent

muscle injuries over several years, hypogonadism was caused by sports activity

together with an impaired testicular function (cryptorchidy). Clinical findings

included testicular maldevelopment, decreased libido, infertility and a high

incidence of muscle strains and delayed post-exercise soreness in mainly

eccentric exercised muscle groups. Laboratory findings showed abnormally lowered

resting testosterone values, most prominent during training periods, and an

unfavourable testosterone/cortisol

ratio during recuperation after exercise. With respect to treatment of the

problem, neither any form of physical therapy nor rehabilitation program could

give long lasting benefit. Using tamoxifen, an anti-oestrogenic drug, which

stimulates LH and FSH production, we not only observed normal physiological

resting testosterone values and a restoration of the testosterone/cortisol ratio

after exercise, but our patient also experienced a higher sexual drive, well

being and a spectacular decrease in the muscle injury rate. Although this

patient was not a highly endurance trained athlete, we assume that a chronic

anabolic/catabolic hormone imbalance may be of greater clinical importance in

sports activity based on eccentric and explosive muscle work.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Last edited by seekonk; 08-03-2010 at 09:50 PM.

seekonk

#4 08-03-2010

seekonk

Re: Restore HPTA via Nolvadex (Tamoxifen)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is another study comparing Nolvadex to some other SERMS. It is not compared

to Clomid, though.

http://www.ergo-log.com/nolvabest.html

Quote:

Nolvadex best T-booster of the SERMS

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Last edited by seekonk; 08-03-2010 at 09:49 PM.

seekonk

#5 08-03-2010

seekonk

Re: Restore HPTA via Nolvadex (Tamoxifen)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is a study on dosing. It finds that the lowest dose tested (5 mg per day)

is as effective as the higher doses tested. People are always using MUCH higher

doses than necessary. This also goes for Clomid.

Quote:

Andrologia. 1985 Jul-Aug;17(4):369-78.

Effect of lower versus higher doses of tamoxifen on pituitary-gonadal function

and sperm indices in oligozoospermic men.

Dony JM, Smals AG, Rolland R, Fauser BC, CM.

Abstract

Administration of the antiestrogen tamoxifen for one month to 12 patients with

idiopathic oligozoospermia significantly increased the mean basal testosterone

(T) level and the responses of luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle stimulating

hormone (FSH) to constant luteinizing hormone releasing hormone (LHRH) infusion

but did not significantly influence the mean oestradiol (E2) levels or the E2

over testosterone ratio. Mean sperm concentration and total sperm output

increased by about 70% after a mean treatment period of 5.5 +/- 0.4 months. No

statistically significant difference was found between the two subgroups of

patients treated with either the lower (5 or 10 mg once daily) or higher dose of

tamoxifen (10 mg twice daily) with respect to basal or LHRH stimulated

gonadotropin and testosterone response or the E2/T ratio and the effect on sperm

density and total sperm output. In both subgroups the sperm motility and

morphology remained unchanged. In

conclusion higher doses of tamoxifen in this study prove not to be superior to

lower doses in improving mean sperm density and total sperm output. The relative

small percentage of patients achieving normalisation of only these sperm

parameters pleads for further search for more effective selection of patients

and other more effective treatment modalities in patients with idiopathic

oligozoospermia.

seekonk

#6 08-03-2010

seekonk

Re: Restore HPTA via Nolvadex (Tamoxifen)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is a reason why Nolvadex should be better than Clomid.

It also shows that Nolvadex can start you (not technically a restart here).

Quote:

Fertil Steril. 1978 Mar;29(3):320-7.

Hormonal effects of an antiestrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men.

Vermeulen A, Comhaire F.

Abstract

The administration of tamoxifen, 20 mg/day for 10 days, to normal males produced

a moderate increase in luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle-stimulating hormone

(FSH), testosterone, and estradiol levels, comparable to the effect of 150 mg of

clomiphene citrate (Clomid). However, whereas Clomid produced a decrease in the

LH response to LH-releasing hormone (LHRH), no such effect was seen after the

administration of tamoxifen. In fact, prolonged treatment (6 weeks) with

tamoxifen significantly increased the LH response to LHRL. Treatment of patients

with " idiopathic " oligospermia for 6 to 9 months resulted in a significant

increase in gonadotropin, testosterone, and estradiol levels. A significant

increase in sperm density was observed only in subjects with oligospermia below

20 X 10(6)/ml and normal basal FSH levels. When basal FSH levels were increased

or oligospermia was moderate (greater than 20 X 10(6)/ml); no effect on sperm

density was seen. As sperm

density increased, FSH levels decreased, suggesting an inhibin effect. Sperm

motility was not improved by tamoxifen treatment. In five boys with delayed

puberty, tamoxifen treatment appeared to activate the pituitary-gonadal axis and

pubertal development.

seekonk

#7 08-03-2010

seekonk

Re: Restore HPTA via Nolvadex (Tamoxifen)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nolvadex is also apparently good for some aspects of cardiovascular health, and

for musculoskeletal health markers like bone density.

seekonk

#8 08-04-2010

moonman

Re: Restore HPTA via Nolvadex (Tamoxifen)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

i ordered some liquid nolva

gonna prolly go

40-40-20-20-10

moonman

#9 08-04-2010

seekonk

Re: Restore HPTA via Nolvadex (Tamoxifen)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by moonman

i ordered some liquid nolva

gonna prolly go

40-40-20-20-10

It may be more than you need. See the post above on dosing.

seekonk

#10 08-04-2010

CubbieBlue

Re: Restore HPTA via Nolvadex (Tamoxifen)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by moonman

i ordered some liquid nolva

gonna prolly go

40-40-20-20-10

Keep us posted (with labs too!)

----------------------------------------------------

In the following Dr. replys.

---------------------------------------------------

#11 08-04-2010

Dr. Crisler

Re: Restore HPTA via Nolvadex (Tamoxifen)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by seekonk

i am interested in this too. Clomid has traditionally been used for this but

there are reasons why nolvadex would probably be better than clomid.

In the bb community i think nolvadex is becoming the preferred pct drug,

replacing clomid. However, the formal medical community is always a few years

behind the bb people, yes, we wait until they kill themselves, then reduce the

dose to 1/10th lol which is why the available formal research is on clomid.

so i think the reason you are not finding a lot of stories is simply because of

a lack of prior art, not because it is any worse.

however, nolvadex should be better than clomid because it has somewhat less side

effects (especially the emotional side effects), it has a better track record

for long-term safety than clomid (it is typically used long-term for cancer in

women, whereas clomid is a short-term fertility drug), this statement is not

valid and it does not appear to desensitize the pituitary to gnrh, wheras clomid

has been shown to do this. Not true. The clomid in that study was at many times

the proper dose, so the estrogen agonist half had taken over.

Nolvadex is certainly a very effective drug for raising testosterone while on

it.

The following research does not address restarts, but it is relevant:

Please see responses inserted above in BOLD.

__________________

www.AllThingsMale.com

Any information I may provide does not substitute for a proper medical

evaluation by a medical professional; nor does it constitute doctor/patient

relationship, or liability, in any way.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Last edited by Dr. Crisler; 08-04-2010 at 09:18 PM.

Dr. Crisler

#12 08-04-2010

Dr. Crisler

Re: Restore HPTA via Nolvadex (Tamoxifen)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by seekonk

Here is a study on dosing. It finds that the lowest dose tested (5 mg per day)

is as effective as the higher doses tested. People are always using MUCH higher

doses than necessary. This also goes for Clomid.

Excellent point.

We also see those who do not know what they are doing using BOTH tamox and

clomiphene--and BOTH at too high doses--for gosh sakes!

__________________

www.AllThingsMale.com

Any information I may provide does not substitute for a proper medical

evaluation by a medical professional; nor does it constitute doctor/patient

relationship, or liability, in any way.

Dr. Crisler

#13 08-04-2010

Dr. Crisler

Re: Restore HPTA via Nolvadex (Tamoxifen)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by seekonk

Here is a reason why Nolvadex should be better than Clomid.

It also shows that Nolvadex can start you (not technically a restart here).

Do you see that the Clomid in that study is at 12 times the effective dose? What

a joke of a study.

__________________

www.AllThingsMale.com

Any information I may provide does not substitute for a proper medical

evaluation by a medical professional; nor does it constitute doctor/patient

relationship, or liability, in any way.

Dr. Crisler

#14 08-04-2010

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: cottonfarm7@... <cottonfarm7@...>

> Subject: Re: small ones also

>

> Date: Thursday, October 14, 2010, 2:46 PM

>

> In a message dated 10/14/2010 1:36:13 P.M. Central Daylight

> Time, 

> pmgamer18@...

> writes:

>

> Clomiphene (Clomid, Serophene, Omifin) is used to do a

> stim. test  to see

> if ones Testis work it will force the brain to make more LH

> and FSH  this

> tells the testis to make more T. But it's not use in men on

> TRT using it  is a

> big mistake. One one hand the T is shutting down your LH

> and FSH message 

> then if you add Tamoxifen (Nolvadex)to the mix it's like

> giving the brain a 

> mixed message doing this can make your body go nuts trying

> to fix  this.

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Phil..........would you recommend Clomiphene for a guy like

> me who is

>

>    I.  Not on TRT

>

>    2.  Taking a quarter tablet of

> Arimidex every four days  to lower

> estrogen (and getting better nighttime and

>         morning wood)

>

>     3.  Has smaller balls in the process of

> this  regimen

>

>      4.  Would like my libido to

> be higher.

>

> If you would recommend it for me given what you know about

> aging men and 

> Testosterone, what amount would you take of Clomiphene and

> how often would

> you  take it.  I have some Clomiphene on hand but

> have never taken it.

>

> Thank you man for your help.  Again, I am 63 and

> trying to battle  lower T

> levels and higher E level naturally with natural products

> (ISA-Test) and  a

> quarter tablet every four days for Estrogen lowering

> .........also lots of 

> exercise and weight training daily.

>

> Cotton

>

>

>