Re: HORMA (Hormonal Regulators of Muscle and Metabolism in Aging) Trial

[Guest guest]

Unfortunately they didn't list the range for their lab testing, it could

2000 or 3000 for all we know.

A note about strength, I have a total T around 250-260, I went on a 4

week strength program to prepare for my " gauntlet " at my dojo (when you

become a black belt you must spare all black belts over and over etc...)

and I had a mix of trying to gain strength, endurance, and speed. In

the power or strength part of the program you do 5 sets of 5 reps based

on your 5 rep max, and at the end of the 4 weeks I had:

* Increased my bench press 5RM focus workout weight by 15%

* Increased deadlift 5RM focus weight %44 from 156lb to 226.6lbs,

and whats even more I ended up doing 5 second negatives for each

rep, and not setting the bar down on each rep (HUGE change)

* Increased my workout row 5RM focus weight by %35, from 260lbs to

350lbs

* Increased my workout dumbbell military press weight from a 5RM

focus weight o 30lbs to 45lbs

* Increased my lat pull down 5RM focus weight 18%

That was from literally only 6 total power workout sesssions! I was

also doing HIRT (High intensity resistance training), HIIT (High

intensity interval training on the elliptical), and some steady state

walking daily with all of this, but my strength still went up.

My point is, even with very low T I had significant strength gains by

just lifting weights. I don't think you have to have

super-physiological levels of T to create strength. In fact for the

most part I think strength is more neurological then physical size, at

some point you do have to increase your muscle mass to increase strength

but there is a lot to be gained just from training your body to fire all

your muscle fibers first.

In terms of mass, I don't know how much I put on during this 4 weeks,

but I know I gained some muscle just by what I looked like in the mirror

and how my clothes were fitting at the end, my weight stayed basically

the same.

BR//Matt

On 1/28/2011 9:51 PM, cvictorg wrote:

>

> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21059836

>

> http://biomedgerontology.oxfordjournals.org/content/66A/1/122.full

>

> Testosterone Threshold Levels and Lean Tissue Mass Targets Needed to

> Enhance Skeletal Muscle Strength and Function: The HORMA Trial

>

> Increases in total testosterone of 1046 ng/dL (95% confidence interval

> = 1040--1051) and 898 ng/dL (95% confidence interval = 892--904) were

> necessary to achieve median increases in lean body mass of 1.5 kg and

> appendicular skeletal muscle mass of 0.8 kg, respectively, which were

> required to significantly enhance one-repetition maximum strength

> ( & #8805;30%). Co-treatment with rhGH lowered the testosterone levels

> (quantified using liquid chromatography--tandem mass spectrometry)

> necessary to reach these lean mass thresholds.

>

> These represent conservative estimates because they include men whose

> testosterone levels declined, as may occur during clinical treatment

> with testosterone, and as such delineate target testosterone levels

> needed to sufficiently enhance LBM and ASMM necessary to improve

> muscle strength and physical function.

>

> Our data may also help explain why some testosterone trials, which

> used relatively low fixed doses of testosterone and achieved small (if

> any) increments in testosterone levels, reported relatively modest LBM

> gains and little or no change in muscle strength or physical function.

> Our data highlight the need for dose titration to target testosterone

> levels in clinical trials of testosterone for anabolic applications.

>

> Question - If the levels in the study are correct doesn't that mean

> that we should be aiming for total testosterone levels of 1000-1100

> ng/dL??

>

>

[Guest guest]

Look at the graph

http://biomedgerontology.oxfordjournals.org/content/66A/1/122/F1.expansion.html

The box plots represent the distribution of changes from baseline to week 16 for

testosterone participants who received 5 or 10 g/d doses and IGF-1 for

participants who received rhGH at 0, 3, and 5 & #956;g/kg/d. The solid line

within each box represents the median and hatched line the mean of the

distribution change. The upper and lower boundaries of the boxes represent the

75th and 25th percentiles of the distribution, respectively. The upper and lower

whiskers represent the 90th and 10th percentiles, respectively. Dots above and

below the 90th and 10th percentiles, respectively, are individual values outside

this range.

>

> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21059836

>

> http://biomedgerontology.oxfordjournals.org/content/66A/1/122.full

>

> Testosterone Threshold Levels and Lean Tissue Mass Targets Needed to Enhance

Skeletal Muscle Strength and Function: The HORMA Trial

>

> Increases in total testosterone of 1046 ng/dL (95% confidence interval =

1040–1051) and 898 ng/dL (95% confidence interval = 892–904) were necessary to

achieve median increases in lean body mass of 1.5 kg and appendicular skeletal

muscle mass of 0.8 kg, respectively, which were required to significantly

enhance one-repetition maximum strength ( & #8805;30%). Co-treatment with rhGH

lowered the testosterone levels (quantified using liquid chromatography–tandem

mass spectrometry) necessary to reach these lean mass thresholds.

>

> These represent conservative estimates because they include men whose

testosterone levels declined, as may occur during clinical treatment with

testosterone, and as such delineate target testosterone levels needed to

sufficiently enhance LBM and ASMM necessary to improve muscle strength and

physical function.

>

> Our data may also help explain why some testosterone trials, which used

relatively low fixed doses of testosterone and achieved small (if any)

increments in testosterone levels, reported relatively modest LBM gains and

little or no change in muscle strength or physical function. Our data highlight

the need for dose titration to target testosterone levels in clinical trials of

testosterone for anabolic applications.

>

> Question - If the levels in the study are correct doesn't that mean that we

should be aiming for total testosterone levels of 1000-1100 ng/dL??

>

[Guest guest]

I would say the study is bad no one gets levels that high on gels doing 5 or

even 10 grams. What happened here is the men in the study put the gel on then

did the labs spiking up there levels. Men on gels need to shower in the morning

go do labs then put on the gels. If you put on the gel first 2 things happen

one is if you got the gel on the spot where they take the blood it will spike up

labs to very high levels. Two is if your put on the gel first it stays just

under your skin feeding your blood over the next 6 hrs. Doing labs before 6 hrs

are up will spike up your labs.

All anyone needs to do is read about Androgel.com and see where levels went

after being on them for a time.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: cvictorg <cvgrashow@...>

> Subject: HORMA (Hormonal Regulators of Muscle and Metabolism in

Aging) Trial

>

> Date: Friday, January 28, 2011, 10:51 PM

> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21059836

>

> http://biomedgerontology.oxfordjournals.org/content/66A/1/122.full

>

> Testosterone Threshold Levels and Lean Tissue Mass Targets

> Needed to Enhance Skeletal Muscle Strength and Function: The

> HORMA Trial

>

> Increases in total testosterone of 1046 ng/dL (95%

> confidence interval = 1040–1051) and 898 ng/dL (95%

> confidence interval = 892–904) were necessary to achieve

> median increases in lean body mass of 1.5 kg and

> appendicular skeletal muscle mass of 0.8 kg, respectively,

> which were required to significantly enhance one-repetition

> maximum strength (≥30%). Co-treatment with rhGH

> lowered the testosterone levels (quantified using liquid

> chromatography–tandem mass spectrometry) necessary to

> reach these lean mass thresholds.

>

> These represent conservative estimates because they include

> men whose testosterone levels declined, as may occur during

> clinical treatment with testosterone, and as such delineate

> target testosterone levels needed to sufficiently enhance

> LBM and ASMM necessary to improve muscle strength and

> physical function.

>

> Our data may also help explain why some testosterone

> trials, which used relatively low fixed doses of

> testosterone and achieved small (if any) increments in

> testosterone levels, reported relatively modest LBM gains

> and little or no change in muscle strength or physical

> function. Our data highlight the need for dose titration to

> target testosterone levels in clinical trials of

> testosterone for anabolic applications.

>

> Question - If the levels in the study are correct doesn't

> that mean that we should be aiming for total testosterone

> levels of 1000-1100 ng/dL??

>

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

This (1000+) would in most cases be considered pretty high in the normal range.

Most adult men naturally have somewhat less than that. On TRT my level is

around 500. At age 53 I can do 60 pushups cold and I'm happy with that. My

point is that you don't have to be at 1000+ to be fit, or healthy, for that

matter. The main problem I see in being that high is the impact that

testosterone has on other hormones, mostly estrogen. When I am over 800 I start

having big problems with E2 and frankly, it simply isn't worth it and I don't

need to be that high (800) in order to be healthy and fit. If you feel good at

250 then you can be plenty fit if you are willing to work for it. W

> > >

> > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21059836

> > >

> > > http://biomedgerontology.oxfordjournals.org/content/66A/1/122.full

> > >

> > > Testosterone Threshold Levels and Lean Tissue Mass

> > Targets Needed to Enhance Skeletal Muscle Strength and

> > Function: The HORMA Trial

> > >

> > > Increases in total testosterone of 1046 ng/dL (95%

> > confidence interval = 1040†" 1051) and 898 ng/dL (95%

> > confidence interval = 892†" 904) were necessary to achieve

> > median increases in lean body mass of 1.5 kg and

> > appendicular skeletal muscle mass of 0.8 kg, respectively,

> > which were required to significantly enhance one-repetition

> > maximum strength (≥30%). Co-treatment with rhGH

> > lowered the testosterone levels (quantified using liquid

> > chromatography†" tandem mass spectrometry) necessary to

> > reach these lean mass thresholds.

> > >

> > > These represent conservative estimates because they

> > include men whose testosterone levels declined, as may occur

> > during clinical treatment with testosterone, and as such

> > delineate target testosterone levels needed to sufficiently

> > enhance LBM and ASMM necessary to improve muscle strength

> > and physical function.

> > >

> > > Our data may also help explain why some testosterone

> > trials, which used relatively low fixed doses of

> > testosterone and achieved small (if any) increments in

> > testosterone levels, reported relatively modest LBM gains

> > and little or no change in muscle strength or physical

> > function. Our data highlight the need for dose titration to

> > target testosterone levels in clinical trials of

> > testosterone for anabolic applications.

> > >

> > > Question - If the levels in the study are correct

> > doesn't that mean that we should be aiming for total

> > testosterone levels of 1000-1100 ng/dL??

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------

> >

> >