Re: Your thoughts on this? For the knowledgeable among us.

February 25, 2010

I don't understand why some one today with what Dr.'s know about Prostate and

Testis cancer would put a man on an anti-androgens with Estrogen. I think this

is a very old treatment some Uro's will add Testosterone to help with the

treatment of Prostate cancer.

I feel this guys Dr. does not know what he is going on and is from an old

school.

http://compassionateoncology.org/pdfs/TRTHandout.pdf

Yes if you add Testosterone to your body at an older age with a good amount of

fat on you your going to have to take something to control estradiol levels but

to add Estrogen to a man to me is NUTS.

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: Kyrios Ouranos <okyrios@...>

> Subject: Your thoughts on this? For the knowledgeable among us.

>

> Date: Thursday, February 25, 2010, 12:42 PM

> I am a participant in an online forum

> that has nothing to do with hypogonadism except as an

> ancillary issue that guys sometimes mention. However, I ran

> across some statements by one of the participants that

> really have me kinda floored because I have never run across

> anything like this. Now, granted, I'm a novice to the world

> of TRT, but what this guy is saying flies in the face of

> everything I've learned about the subject thus far. If

> anyone is willing to comment, may I have your thoughts on

> the following quote? Who knows, I may learn something new!

> Always a plus!

> QUOTE:

>

> >>

> >>(My health problems for taking estrogen and

> anti-androgens are due to a

> >>>messed up endocrine system in my body. My T

> levels were low & I was

> >>>developing bone & joint problems. Doc put

> me on steroids & none

> >>>of the testosterone replacement therapy he put

> me on was suitable

> >>>because all it was doing was raising estrogen

> levels. Having two

> >>>conflicting hormones in the body is VERY

> dangerous. So he put me on

> >>>estrogen & anti-androgen. He said the T was

> converting into E and

> >>>now since you are taking E, it can NOT convert

> to any other hormone

> >>>since estrogen can not bio-chemically convert

> to another hormones. He

> >>>said that there is no other choice right now

> because your body NEEDS to

> >>>run on a hormone. Without running on a hormone,

> he said my bone

> >>>problems will get much worse & the damage

> would irreversible. I've

> >>>also worked with a bone specialist & she

> agreed with his diagnosis.

> >>>He said he WILL eventually take me off the

> estrogen once my problem is

> >>>fixed and then he will try to put me back on T

> & see if how my body

> >>>reacts. He's very experienced by way & he

> said something is up with

> >>>my endocrine system, it's not the result of

> high doses of T, since they

> >>>were very low doses & it wasn't possible

> for my estrogen levels to

> >>>jump that high from converting from such small

> amount of testosterone.)

> >>>

>

February 25, 2010

No, it's not impossible... very uncommon, but not impossible.

I've never heard the bit about it being " very dangerous with

" conflicting " hormones " considering we all have both E and T in our

bodies and need them both to be healthy.

Oh, and the bit about E not converting to " anything " is not QUITE

correct. E only converts into other, weaker, forms of E, namely Estrone

and Estriol.

I REALLY don't get the " danger " thing they're talking about... I mean,

I'm not a doctor, but I've done TONS of research on this very subject

(Lets just say it's a topic near and dear to my heart) and I've never

heard it called dangerous.

On 2/25/2010 12:42 PM, Kyrios Ouranos wrote:

>

> I am a participant in an online forum that has nothing to do with

> hypogonadism except as an ancillary issue that guys sometimes mention.

> However, I ran across some statements by one of the participants that

> really have me kinda floored because I have never run across anything

> like this. Now, granted, I'm a novice to the world of TRT, but what

> this guy is saying flies in the face of everything I've learned about

> the subject thus far. If anyone is willing to comment, may I have your

> thoughts on the following quote? Who knows, I may learn something new!

> Always a plus!

> QUOTE:

>

> >>

> >>(My health problems for taking estrogen and anti-androgens are due to a

> >>>messed up endocrine system in my body. My T levels were low & I was

> >>>developing bone & joint problems. Doc put me on steroids & none

> >>>of the testosterone replacement therapy he put me on was suitable

> >>>because all it was doing was raising estrogen levels. Having two

> >>>conflicting hormones in the body is VERY dangerous. So he put me on

> >>>estrogen & anti-androgen. He said the T was converting into E and

> >>>now since you are taking E, it can NOT convert to any other hormone

> >>>since estrogen can not bio-chemically convert to another hormones. He

> >>>said that there is no other choice right now because your body NEEDS to

> >>>run on a hormone. Without running on a hormone, he said my bone

> >>>problems will get much worse & the damage would irreversible. I've

> >>>also worked with a bone specialist & she agreed with his diagnosis.

> >>>He said he WILL eventually take me off the estrogen once my problem is

> >>>fixed and then he will try to put me back on T & see if how my body

> >>>reacts. He's very experienced by way & he said something is up with

> >>>my endocrine system, it's not the result of high doses of T, since they

> >>>were very low doses & it wasn't possible for my estrogen levels to

> >>>jump that high from converting from such small amount of testosterone.)

> >>>

>

February 25, 2010

Don't know if I qualify as knowledgeable, but here goes...

Without lab results, mention of his suspected condition (does he have a problem

with androgen receptors to receive T?), or mention of medication names (which

antiandrogens), I would be very hesitant to take this account seriously.

It is true that some doctors have encouraged use of estrogen during prostate

cancer to both reduce testosterone & maintain bone density.

If the goal was not to decrease testosterone but simply increase bone density,

there's little reason to administer estrogen alone unless the patient was

abnormally low in it.

Testosterone does convert to estrogen, but if someone had excessive estrogen

conversion, there are ways to reduce estrogen production (via aromatase

inhibitors like Arimidex), reduce estrogen's activity (via SERMs like

Tamoxifen), or prevent it from happening via DHT increasing forms of

testosterone (either Androgel or DHT itself).

Studies show aromatase inhibitors can increase testosterone levels by up to 200

ng/dL, a significant increase. Further, high estrogen is known to suppress

testosterone production, so this simply prolongs the problems. And if there is

already high estrogen, why provide more estrogen? This is a cardiovascular

concern for blood clots, especially if he's taking oral estrogen.

Finally, if there is some unknown endocrine issue at work, why prescribe a sex

hormone at all until the problem is known? There are non-hormone drugs like

Fosamax that increase bone density. This is what is prescribed for women who

undergo estrogen deprivation therapy for breast cancer. Prescribing estrogen to

a man already high in estrogen sounds like a recipe for increased risk of

gynecomastia, and if continued indefinitely, breast cancer.

Without crucial details, this account sounds so rife with bad medical decisions

that it's hard to believe.

If he indeed had excessive conversion of testosterone to estrogen, his problem

might be related to his weight and/or the method of TRT he was using.

ly, there are almost ALWAYS opposing hormones at work in the body at any

given moment, as estrogen and testosterone are present in men and women, albeit

at different amounts. To say otherwise is to either ignore biology or commit

gross oversimplification.

~Xian

>

> I am a participant in an online forum that has nothing to do with hypogonadism

except as an ancillary issue that guys sometimes mention. However, I ran across

some statements by one of the participants that really have me kinda floored

because I have never run across anything like this. Now, granted, I'm a novice

to the world of TRT, but what this guy is saying flies in the face of everything

I've learned about the subject thus far. If anyone is willing to comment, may I

have your thoughts on the following quote? Who knows, I may learn something new!

Always a plus!