Guest guest Posted January 19, 2011 Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 How much of a boost in cortisol production have ones been getting out of transdermal pregnenolone? Has it reduced HC needs? I'm going to get some compounded transdermal pregnenolone now that I found out versabase gel doesn't have soy. Apparently so much stuff out there in cream form, including compounded, can have tocopherol/vitamin E (from soy) and that induces stabbing pains in my kidneys and adrenals even if I touch it and absorb it in. I know testosterone and pregnenolone are basically the same size molecularity, so I'd like to know if anyone had an experience on how well versabase GEL worked for their compounded adrenal/sex hormones. If it's not so good then I'll know to expect to use more. I doubt I can use those effective lecithin bases as lecithin is usually from soy, so that explains why I've chosen the gel. I used to sublingual a lot of pregnenolone and had my HC needs go so low in response that I more than halved my cortisol dose at one point. I love the stuff, but do feel there is more estradiol production, hence the decision to try transdermal. Also, does anyone know of what to watch for if I'm on too much transdermal pregnenolone? Could it easily end up as too much progesterone? -Nigel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2011 Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 Good Questions Nigel it's all new to me right now I am trying this even thou I am Secondary and my Pituitary does not tell my Adrenals to make enough Cortisol. The thinking at Dr. 's forum by chilln in his sticky called " Hormones 101 " he feels not enough Prog. you end up with lower levels of Cortiols Prog. converts into cortisol so even in my case of not making enough from my Adreanls if I supplement with enough Preg. my Cortiosl levels will go up stopping the converson of Testosterone into Estraidol and for some the need for HC meds. You do need to go to Dr. 's from and read up on this. Guys are so excited about this every other post is about Preg. http://www.musclechatroom.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?2-All-Things-Male If you join there you can click on chilln and read all his posts. Here are some cut and Pastes. =================================================== chilln Super Moderator Join Date Feb 20, 2008 Posts 5,819 Re: Switching from Hydrocortisone to Pregnolone Originally Posted by spiderRico I switched. I weaned off the HC though. I feel absolutely nothing on the preg. I've tried every dose, every type. I doubt it. --------------------------------------------------- I guarantee that you have not increased your serum pregnenolone to the point where your serum pregnenolone was in excess. This is explained in how to dose pregnenolone per the Cortisol boost 101 part3: http://musclechatroom.com/forum/show...5 & postcount=13 You do need to continue to increase your dose of transdermal pregnenolone. Most likely the concentraion of your transdermal pregnenolone is trivial (eg: 1%) and you need to switch to a higher concentration, eg: 5%, or 10% or even 20% (which is what I needed initially because I am a fast metabolizer). If for some reason you can only ever absorb minute amounts of transdermal pregnenolone (and I really mean " minute " ) then that's an extremly rare circumstance and I haven't come across any such person yet - and I doubt you're going to be the first. ==================================================== Cortisol boost 101 - part 3 ....cont'd from previous post (part 2) BOOST THE CORTISOL-PRODUCTION-LINE, TREAT VIA PREGNENOLONE OR PROGESTERONE Finding the pregnenolone and progesterone " top up " sweet spots This dosing strategy is to supplement with small doses of pregnenolone or progesterone which only " tops up " our pregnenolone or progesterone levels, and which only " tops up " cortisol too, and keeps cortisol just under the level which would cause mild ACTH suppression. The way we find the " top up " sweet spot is to; A) Find the minimum useful " top up " dose: ......a) Start out on a very small dose, which must not cause any increase in alertness and / or energy within 4 hours, or does not cause an improvement in your sleep quality overnight. ............Eg: oral=50mg, transdermal=5mg. ...... Increase the dose, each day, until you first notice an increase in alertness and / or energy within 4 hours, or causes an improvement in your sleep quality overnight. ............Eg: oral 50mg -> 100mg -> 150mg etc... ............Eg: transdermal 5mg -> 10mg -> 15mg -> 20mg -> 30mg -> 40mg etc... ......c) The dose which causes you to first notice an increase in alertness and / or energy within 4 hours, or causes an improvement in your sleep quality overnight, is your minimum useful " top up " dose. ......d) If you're using oral formulation, and you get to 500mg and you never notice an increase in alertness and / or energy within 4 hours, or your sleep quality never increases, then start over with a transdermal formulation. ......e) If you're using a transdermal formulation, and you get to 200mg and you never notice an increase in alertness and / or energy within 4 hours, or you notice no improvement in sleep quality overnight, then either: ...........(i) You're not absorbing the base used by your compounding pharmacist (you should try switching bases to lipoderm) ...........(ii) Your adrenals are not synthesizing cortisol from your pregnenolone or progesterone (you should purchase a 24hr urinary test, eg: Rheins has markers for preg, prog and cortisol. Genova has markers for prog, 17 hydroxyprog. Meridian has markers for prog, cortisol) Now find the " top up " dose sweet spot ......a) Increase the dose each day, and monitor the intensity and duration of the improvement of alertness and / or energy ...........Eg: increase your oral dose by 50mg each day ...........Eg: increase your transdermal dose by 10mg each day ...... The intensity and duration of the improvement of alertness and / or energy should initially increase (with increasing dose) and then decrease (with continued increases in dosage. ......c) Too high a dose brings on the yawns (due to ACTH suppression) this is normal, reduce your dose. ......d) Too high a dose brings on spacey feelings and / or a tingly face without the yawns, then your adrenal enzymes aren't synthesizing preg all the way to cortisol, and your adrenal enzymes need to be upregulated by a boost to your thyroid hormones - see the Thyroid Boost 101 primer. ......e) Adjust the dose around the sweet spot to confirm that you've found your " top up " sweet spot. C) Now find how many times per day you need to " top up " your pregnenolone or progesterone ......a) As each dose wears off, if you still experience symptoms of too low cortisol, or a downregulated cortisol-production-line, then re-apply the same " sweet spot " dose. ...... If your body requires repeated applications of " top up " doses, it can become annoying, in which case discuss with your medical professional adviser to consider switching from pregnenolone to progesterone (which may have a longer half life in your body) or if you're already trying progesterone, then consider switching to " replacement " dosing, or consider supplementing progesterone only at night, just before sleep time, when the ACTH suppression effect will not be noticed while you're sleeping. If you've found your " top up " sweet spot, and your sleep hasn't improved adequately from your perspective, or your energy hasn't improved adequately from your perspective, then you're going to need to boost your thyroid hormones. BOOST THE CORTISOL-PRODUCTION-LINE, TREAT VIA PREGNENOLONE OR PROGESTERONE Why increasing our " top up " dose past the sweet spot (by a small amount), results in no more improvement Increasing the dose of pregnenolone or progesterone past the sweet spot by a small amount, causes a too large increase in cortisol, which causes mild ACTH suppression, which results in downregulation of self-made pregnenolone greater than the amount of supplementary pregnenolone taken, which results in overall lower pregnenolone, causing a reduction in neurotransmitters, which increases drowsiness. In those whose cortisol-production-line operates at a slow to intermediate rate, this " top up " dosing strategy only requires once-per-day dosing, or twice-per-day dosing or some may elect to use this dosing strategy with 3-times-per-day dosing. For these people, this dosing strategy is also their optimal dosing strategy. In those whose cortisol-production-line operates at a high / fast rate (like chilln), this requires 4 to 6 times per day dosing. For these people the " top up " sweet spot is not optimal. In those whose cortisol-production-line operates at a high / fast rate (like chilln), gradually increasing the dose past the " top up " sweet spot by a large amount, eventually causes complete ACTH suppression. At this point the dose is sufficient to replace all of our requirements for pregnenolone or progesterone (as appropriate) for several hours. The large reservoir of supplementary hormone is used up more slowly than the much smaller " top up " doses. This type of dosing is called " replacement " dosing. BOOST THE CORTISOL-PRODUCTION-LINE, TREAT VIA PREGNENOLONE Finding the pregnenolone " replacement " sweet spot A) First find your " top up " dose sweet spot (see above) Find your minimum " replacement " dose ......a) Starting with twice the dose of pregnenolone which was your " top up " dose sweet spot, confirm that this dose results in only minimal alertness (sometimes none) but definitely causes drowsiness within an hour. This is not yet your minimum " replacement " dose of pregnenolone. ...... Increase the dose of pegnenolone until the dose is enough to restore alertness ...........Eg: increase oral pregnenolone by 100mg each day ...........Eg: increase transdermal pregnenolone by 50mg each day ......c) The dose of pregnenolone which is at least double your " top up " dose, and which causes you to first notice an increase in alertness and / or energy within 4 hours, is your minimum useful " replacement " dose. At this point you will have replaced all of your naturally produced pregnenolone with exogenous pregnenolone. ......d) If you're using oral pregnenolone, and you get to 1000mg and you never notice an increase in alertness and / or energy within 4 hours, then start over with transdermal pregnenolone. ......e) If you're using transdermal pregnenolone, and you get to 500mg and you never notice an increase in alertness and / or energy within 4 hours, then either: ...........(i) You're not absorbing the base used by your compounding pharmacist (you should try switching bases to lipoderm) ...........(ii) Your adrenals are not synthesizing enough cortisol from your pregnenolone (you should purchase a 24hr urinary test which measures many of the adrenal hormones, eg: Genova, or get doctors prescription for Rheins) C) Now find the " replacement " dose sweet spot ......a) Increase the dose of pregnenolone, each day, and monitor the intensity and duration of the improvement of alertness and / or energy ...........Eg: increase oral pregnenolone by 100mg each day ...........Eg: increase transdermal pregnenolone by 50mg each day ...... The intensity and duration of the improvement of alertness and / or energy should initially increase (with increasing pregnenolone) and then decrease with continued increases in pregnenolone. ......c) Adjust the dose of pregnenolone around the sweet spot to confirm that you've found your " replacement " sweet spot. D) Now find how many times per day you need to " replace " your pregnenolone ......a) As each dose of pregnenolone wears off, if you still experience symptoms of too low cortisol, or a downregulated cortisol-production-line, then re-apply the same " sweet spot " dose of pregnenolone. ...... If your body requires repeated applications of " replacement " pregnenolone doses, the solution is to supplement with transdermal progesterone, which has a much longer half life than pregnenolone in the human body - but this is currently experimental. cont'd on next post... Last edited by chilln; 2 Weeks Ago at 05:57 PM. Reply Reply With Quote Blog this Post -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11-14-2010 #14 chilln View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message View Blog Entries View Articles Add as Contact Super Moderator Join Date Feb 20, 2008 Posts 5,819 Cortisol boost 101 - part 4 ....cont'd from previous post: BOOST THE CORTISOL-PRODUCTION-LINE, TREAT WITH HYDROCORTISONE (HC) Supplementing with HC can " spare " 17 hydroxyprog, because ordinarily some 17 hydroxyprog would be lost synthesizing cortisol. Sparing 17 hydroxyprog can spare progesterone, because ordinarily some progesterone would be lost synthesizing 17 hydroxyprog Sparing progesterone can spare pregnenolone, because ordinarily some pregnenolone would be lost synthesizing progesterone. But the maximum efficiency of the " sparing " feedback loops is determined by your current cortisol production. ie: a) if your current cortisol production is relatively high, then you're going to " spare " a lot of pregnenolone (good). if your current cortisol production is relatively low, then you're going to " spare " very little pregnenolone (bad). Since most people who need to supplement with HC are of situation " " therefore by supplementing with HC they will only spare very little progesterone and pregnenolone. ### HC is best suited to treating too-low cortisol when either: a) cortisol is too low, and pregnenolone or progesterone labs are difficult to obtain, but HC should only be used in this case for at most a few weeks, and only to confirm that supplementing with cortisol results in improvement in health - at this point your should try switching to using pregnenolone. ....or: you've tried transdermal pregnenolone, but your transdermal absorption of hormones is poor, and you cannot absorb sufficient pregnenolone to yield sufficient cortisol ....or: c) cortisol is too low, and supplementing with pregnenolone yields lab metrics which show that pregnenolone rises but there's a failure to raise either progesterone, 17 hydroxyprogesterone or cortisol. This indicates a genetic anomaly in the enzymes which synthesize cortisol from its precursors, ie: LDL cholesterol ---------------( CYP11A/SCAR enzymes upregulated by ACTH, downregulated by pregnenolone )----> pregnenolone pregnenolone <-----------------( 3βHSD enzymes upregulated by pregnenolone, insulin, and IGF-1 )-------------------------> progesterone progesterone -------------------( CYP17 enzymes upregulated by progesterone )------------------------------------------------------> 17 hydroxyprogesterone 17 hydroxyprogesterone ---( CYP21/CYP11β1 enzymes upregulated by 17 hydroxyprogesterone )-----------------------> cortisol A mild deficiency in one or more of the enzymes 3βHSD, CYP17, CYP21 or CYP11β1 is not the same as the life-threatening disease " CAH " (congenital adrenal hyperplasia, or " 's " disease). Assuming that your medical professional adviser wishes to confirm that direct HC supplementation is needed in the short term, to get you physically active, then be careful to first evaluate only small doses of supplementary HC, preferably 30 mins before meal times, or taken at times determined by when your salivary cortisol tests show your cortisol is far below the reference range. If you and your medical professional adviser start out evaluating the larger doses of cortisol, you may discover that the larger doses cause adrenal shutdown of cortisol production, if you provide more supplementary cortisol (as HC) than would otherwise be triggered by your own ACTH. Accidentally boosting cortisol with a little too much HC, at any time of the day, can suppress ACTH and make your cortisol lower than it was before supplementing with HC. If you experience this, back off gradually until you've completely backed off HC, to restore your normal cortisol feedback loops. Best to trial 5 mg at first sign of brain fade or tiredness, and don't add another 5 mg unless symptoms haven't improved after 30 to 40 minutes. Sometimes when you only need 5mg, then taking 10mg will result in a short term suppression, and you'll get tired soon after taking the 10mg, and you'll think you need another 5mg or another 10mg, but this is most likely due to supression rather than a need for more than the initial dose of 10mg. Never start out with a trial more than 5mg every 30 to 40 minutes at the first onset of tiredness. This way you won't experience suppression while you're still determining the optimum dose. But you will be more tired than necessary if you ever need 10mg. Just resist the temptation to take 10mg in a single dose. After a few days you'll get the hang of whether there are times when your body needs a 10mg dose of HC, or whether a 5mg dose is adequate. Best to take 5mg as soon as you notice brain fade or tiredness, not when your eyes are getting droopy. Once your eyes are getting droopy you've left it too late. BOOST THE CORTISOL-PRODUCTION-LINE, TREAT WITH CHRONOCORT Chronocort is delayed-and-sustained-release HC. It uses complex layers of polymer coating to achieve gut absorption which results in serum levels which take approx 8 hours to rise to max, and then another 16 to 24 hours to taper off to nothing. When Chronocort becomes available commercially some time in 2012 or 2013, those who cannot or should not use pregnenolone to boost cortisol, should use Chronocort instead of the simpler HC product. Chronocort was previously being funded by " Phoqus " who went into insolvency in 2008, but a new company " Diurnal " have purchased / picked up the rights to Chronocort, and as a result they done three marvellous new things: 1) They've trademarked Chronocort http://www.trademarkia.com/correspon...ulte-21-210554 2) They've patented Chronocort - so now we can read all about what inside (hint: polymer coated HC) - here: http://www.sumobrain.com/patents/wip...010032006.html 3) They've published their paper on their controlled test results (not a stage 1 trial) http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...636.x/abstract And they've done one not-so-marvellous, but necessary thing: 4) They're starting another stage 1 trial. This is a revision because Phoqus had already completed a stage 1 trial and were headed for a stage 2 trial before they went into insolvency. cont'd on next post.... Last edited by chilln; 1 Week Ago at 12:59 AM. Reply Reply With Quote Blog this Post -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11-25-2010 #15 chilln View Profile View Forum Posts Private Message View Blog Entries View Articles Add as Contact Super Moderator Join Date Feb 20, 2008 Posts 5,819 Cortisol boost 101, part 5 ....cont'd from previous post: BOOST THE CORTISOL-PRODUCTION-LINE, TREAT VIA MEDROL / PREDNISONE / PREDNISOLONE Overview Medrol / prednisone / prednisolone suppresses ACTH more than HC, because on a milligram-for-milligram basis medrol / prednisone / prednisolone functions as a cortisol-metabolism-trigger for a much longer time than HC, in the human body. Medrol / prednisone / prednisolone are cortisol molecules which have added or substituted molecular fragments which cortisol does not have. These added or substituted molecular fragments ensure that medrol / prednisone / prednisolone is more slowly metabolized into downstream metabolites than HC. The interesting thing about medrol / prednisone / prednisolone is that it triggers many cortisol metabolism processes even before the added fragments are removed / metabolized. This is why when medrol / prednisone / prednisolone is used to supply a person's complete daily cortisol needs the overall dose of medrol / prednisone / prednisolone is less than a person's daily production of cortisol. One major downside to using medrol / prednisone / prednisolone to replace a large portion of someone's daily quotient of cortisol, is that the person is going to have too low levels of the downstream metabolites of cortisol, because there are not enough medrol / prednisone / prednisolone molecules ingested daily to create those downstream metabolites. However replacing someone's daily quotient of cortisol using HC creates a different set of problems, but they're just as impossible to solve - namely that HC requires annoyingly frequent daily dosing because HC only exhibits significiant cortisol metabolic effects for a few hours in most people. People who must replace the majority of their daily cortisol quotient are in a no-win situation unless a new supplement hits the marketplace, and that new supplement is Chronocort, which is delayed-and-sustained-release-HC. Most people who supplement with medrol / prednisone / prednisolone have an enzyme deficiency in their cortisol-production-line. And therefore the dose of medrol / prednisone / prednisolone these people need to use should only make up the deficit in their cortisol metabolism, not their entire cortisol metabolism. Technically the medrol / prednisone dose should be small enough to not cause any significant reduction of the downstream metabolites of cortisol. But there is no practical reliable way to ensure this. Monitoring ACTH suppression is theoretically the method proposed by medrol / prednisone / prednisolone proponents as the method they use to ensure optimal medrol / prednisone / prednisolone dosing. Determining ACTH suppression due to slow-metabolizing medrol / prednisone / prednisolone is not simple. This is because cortisol metabolism due to insufficinet ACTH is only suppressed by the equivalent boost in cortisol metabolism from the excess medrol / prednisone / prednisolone. In other words, ACTH suppression from excess medrol / prednisone / prednisolone will not be noticeable using the usual symptoms of too low energy, brain fade, or yawning. As a result, determining ACTH suppression due to medrol / prednisone / prednisolone requires monitoring of hormones-other-than-cortisol, such as aldosterone, and the symptoms of too low aldosterone are nowhere near as obvious as the symptoms of too-low cortisol metabolism, and initially requires several blood and / or urine tests for the person to become familiar with their specific symtoms of too low aldosterone. Also, once a person learns their specific symptoms of too-low-aldosterone (which are nowhere near as universal as the symptoms of too low cortisol) then they can begin monitoring their medrol / prednisone / prednisolone via symptoms instead of labs. But the dose of medrol / prednisone / prednisolone which causes ACTH suppression can only be reduced gradually by the body, so the ACTH suppression will remain - usually until some time in the late afternoon, early evening. BOOST THE CORTISOL-PRODUCTION-LINE, TREAT VIA MEDROL / PREDNISONE / PREDNISOLONE Monitoring downstream metabolites I recommend that if you're going to use any of medrol, prednisone / prednisolone then you and your medical professional adviser should monitor several of your adrenal hormones, via a urinary hormone profile, to make sure your adrenals are still making enough of these less frequently discussed hormones. Eg: The Rhein Labs urinary profile includes the following metabolites of cortisol: a) cortisone tetrahydrocortisone (THE) c) tetrahydrocortisol (THF) d) 5-allo-tetrahydrocortisol (5a-THF) e) 11b-hydroxyandrosterone (OHAN) f) 11b-hydroxyetiocholanolone (OHET) Eg: the Meridian Valley Comprehensive HormonePLUS Profile includes the following downstream metabolites of cortisol: a) cortisone tetrahydrocortisone (THE) c) tetrahydrocortisol (THF) d) 5-allo-tetrahydrocortisol (5a-THF) e) 11b-hydroxyandrosterone (OHAN) f) 11b-hydroxyetiocholanolone (OHET) Rhein Labs Hormone Profile info: http://www.rheinlabs.com/hp.html Meridian Valley Labs Comprehensive HormonePLUS Profile info: http://www.meridianvalleylab.com/steroid_dept.html NB: this is only relevant when addressing too-low cortisol via either Medrol / Prednisone / Prednisolone Round 1: You and your medical professional adviser should discuss doing a baseline before starting medrol, prednisone / prednisolone or florinef. If the baseline shows that any of the levels of your downstream metabolites of cortisol are low, then first discuss with your medical professional adviser to try boosting those via HC or Cortef (which is HC) alone. Round 2: Repeat the urinary hormone profile between 2 and 4 months later, when your dosages and symptoms have stabilized. Your new urinary hormone profile should show your body's preferred status for the downstream metabolites of cortisol. This will be your optimum baseline. You and your medical professional adviser should discuss proceeding to supplementing with medrol, prednisone / prednisolone or florinef only after showing that supplementing with HC / Cortef is too cumbersome. Round 3 Assuming you do start on medrol, prednisone / prednisolone or florinef, you and your medical professional adviser should discuss taking the next 24 hr urinary profile between 2 and 4 months later, when your dosage and symptoms are once again approximately stable, but not after 4 months even if your dosages and symptoms haven't stabilized. If this shows no adverse degradation in the downstream metabolites of cortisol, when compared to your optimum baseline (on HC / Cortef) then most likely your body is managing to maintain those downstream metabolite levels, and perhaps delay your next urinary profile for 12 months. If this shows a reduction in the downstream metabolites of cortisol, when compared to your optimum baseline (on HC / Cortef) then discuss with your medical professional adviser to trial a combination of both medrol, or prednisolone / prednisolone or flroinef (as he determines) and HC / Cortef. Round 4: Assuming you do start on a combination of medrol, prednisone / prednisolone or florinef, plus some HC / Cortef, then you and your medical professional adviser should discuss taking the next 24 hr urinary profile between 2 and 4 months later, when your dosage and symptoms are once again approximately stable, but not after 4 months even if your dosages and symptoms haven't stabilized. cont'd on next post... Last edited by chilln; 1 Week Ago at 01:02 AM. Reply Reply With Quote Blog this Post Co-Moderator Phil > From: Nigel <nachonigel@...> > Subject: Transdermal Pregenenolone > > Date: Wednesday, January 19, 2011, 1:15 PM > How much of a boost in cortisol > production have ones been getting out of > transdermal pregnenolone? Has it reduced HC needs? > > I'm going to get some compounded transdermal pregnenolone > now that I found > out versabase gel doesn't have soy. Apparently so much > stuff out there in > cream form, including compounded, can have > tocopherol/vitamin E (from soy) > and that induces stabbing pains in my kidneys and adrenals > even if I touch > it and absorb it in. > > I know testosterone and pregnenolone are basically the same > size > molecularity, so I'd like to know if anyone had an > experience on how well > versabase GEL worked for their compounded adrenal/sex > hormones. If it's not > so good then I'll know to expect to use more. I doubt I can > use those > effective lecithin bases as lecithin is usually from soy, > so that explains > why I've chosen the gel. > > I used to sublingual a lot of pregnenolone and had my HC > needs go so low in > response that I more than halved my cortisol dose at one > point. I love the > stuff, but do feel there is more estradiol production, > hence the decision to > try transdermal. > > Also, does anyone know of what to watch for if I'm on too > much transdermal > pregnenolone? Could it easily end up as too much > progesterone? > > -Nigel > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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