Guest guest Posted June 26, 2010 Report Share Posted June 26, 2010 Dear , Thanks for the comments. I agree TD is best way to start TRT. That is also what I do. T- prop TRT is maybe ok for the few esoteric TRT men who have tried many other IM TRT's and had issues with them. I am not a big fan of T-Pro for the reasons you give. Regards, Karlis On Thu, Jun 24, 2010 at 2:02 AM, Crisler, DO <drjohn@...>wrote: > > > Karlis-- > > I am well known for preferring TD over IM TRT, as TD's more closely mimic > the hormones of a younger man. But in cases with low SHBG and/or anxiety > issues, injectables may bring better results. As such, I do feel the longer > ester brings more stability. > > Hypermetabolizers/hyperexcreters bring additional challenges, of course. > > Be well! > > Regards, > > Crisler, DO > Anti-Aging Medicine > > The information contained in this message is intended only for the personal > and confidential use of the recipient(s) named above, and is protected by > state and federal law. If the reader of this message is not the intended > recipient or an agent responsible for delivering it to the > intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you have received this > document in error and that any review, dissemination, distribution, or > copying of this message is strictly prohibited. If you have received this > communication in error, please notify us immediately, and delete the > original message. We would certainly do the same for you. > > > T Prop vs T Cyp > > Dear Phil, > Example : Testosterone w/o any attached ester for delivery = 100 mg > > Attach a 3 carbon ester to T (C3) - you get T prop ( shortest ester) = > 83.72 mg actual T = loss of 16 mg T. > > Attach a longer 8 carbon (C8 ) ester to T & you get T Cyp (longest > ester) = 69.9= 70 mg of actual T = loss of almost 30 mg of T. > since 30 mg of Cyp ester used to deliver the 70 mg T dose > > Short chain T esters like T prop get cleaved quickly and thereby get > cleared out faster - a few days ( 2-3) . So those who like T prop need to > dose more frequently than w/ Cyp or Enan to have stable T levels. > The longer esters mean less T is delivered. But stays in system longer. > > (+) on T Prop: less bloat, less fluid retention- based on data & patient > reports & biochem. > > (- ) on T Prop. More irritating at injection site. more freq dosing. hard > to > compound high concentration. Rapid aromatization to E. > > Generally what i have seen is 50 to maybe max 100 mg /ml of T prop. > Most available is T prop 50 mg/ml. I tried to get it up to 150- 200 mg/ml > for some patients & Cpd pharm could not do it. > > Doubt insurance would pay for T Prop. > > Most expensive of the 3 main T meds used. > > If some one else has had experience w/ T Prop let me know. > > Hope this makes sense, > > Best - K Ullis, MD > > On Fri, May 28, 2010 at 1:42 PM, philip georgian <pmgamer18@...<pmgamer18%40> > >wrote: > > > > > > > Now from day one going on TRT I hold water this is the first time I heard > > Propionate works to hold less water. This is a big problem for men after > > having Heart Bypass sugary I seem to hold more water yet there is no > damage > > to my heart. How would the dose be on Propionate as to Test C I do 80 mgs > of > > this every 3 days. > > > > If I switch to Propionate will it help a lot with holding water. I can > lose > > 9 lbs of water over night. > > > > I am going back on HGH a lower dose on .3 mgs I held a ton of water and > my > > Estradiol levels went nuts. I am hoping to be able to do better on HGH at > > .15 mgs and in time will be hoping to lower my Test C dose. I am told on > HGH > > one can get by on a lot less Test C shots. > > > > My Humatrope 6 mgs Pen is coming in the mail tomorrow. > > Co-Moderator > > Phil > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dr. Ullis, Do you prescribe t. cypionate to any of > > > your patients? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've notice comparing labs 4 > > > months apart that Esterdiol has gone > > > > from > > > > > > 20 > > > > > > > > to 42, Thyroid T3 has fallen as > > > well as Testosterone levels. My > > > > Doctor > > > > > > has > > > > > > > > increased both Cytomel and > > > Testosterone. TShe noticed the Esterdiol > > > > > > rise and > > > > > > > > said it was nothing to worry > > > about. If I take DIM to lower > > > > Esterdiol > > > > > > will it > > > > > > > > just lower both T's as well? > > > > > > > > Thanks for all your help. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > Karlis C. Ullis, MD > > > > > > > Medical Director: Sports Medicine, > > > Anti-Aging & Preventive Medical > > > > Group > > > > > > > 2701 Ocean Park Blvd., Suite 101 > > > > > > > Santa , CA 90405 > > > > > > > TEL: [310.452.1990]; FAX: > > > [310.452.5134]; > > > > > > > EMAIL: kullismd@ > > > > > > > > > > > > > WEB: www.drkarlisullis.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 26, 2010 Report Share Posted June 26, 2010 I am delighted we are on the same sheet on that one, sir. You are well known for studying how the body actually works, then implementing treatment systems that mimic same. Be well! Regards, Crisler, DO Anti-Aging Medicine The information contained in this message is intended only for the personal and confidential use of the recipient(s) named above, and is protected by state and federal law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or an agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you have received this document in error and that any review, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately, and delete the original message. We would certainly do the same for you. T Prop vs T Cyp > > Dear Phil, > Example : Testosterone w/o any attached ester for delivery = 100 mg > > Attach a 3 carbon ester to T (C3) - you get T prop ( shortest ester) = > 83.72 mg actual T = loss of 16 mg T. > > Attach a longer 8 carbon (C8 ) ester to T & you get T Cyp (longest > ester) = 69.9= 70 mg of actual T = loss of almost 30 mg of T. > since 30 mg of Cyp ester used to deliver the 70 mg T dose > > Short chain T esters like T prop get cleaved quickly and thereby get > cleared out faster - a few days ( 2-3) . So those who like T prop need to > dose more frequently than w/ Cyp or Enan to have stable T levels. > The longer esters mean less T is delivered. But stays in system longer. > > (+) on T Prop: less bloat, less fluid retention- based on data & patient > reports & biochem. > > (- ) on T Prop. More irritating at injection site. more freq dosing. hard > to > compound high concentration. Rapid aromatization to E. > > Generally what i have seen is 50 to maybe max 100 mg /ml of T prop. > Most available is T prop 50 mg/ml. I tried to get it up to 150- 200 mg/ml > for some patients & Cpd pharm could not do it. > > Doubt insurance would pay for T Prop. > > Most expensive of the 3 main T meds used. > > If some one else has had experience w/ T Prop let me know. > > Hope this makes sense, > > Best - K Ullis, MD > > On Fri, May 28, 2010 at 1:42 PM, philip georgian <pmgamer18@...<pmgamer18%40> > >wrote: > > > > > > > Now from day one going on TRT I hold water this is the first time I heard > > Propionate works to hold less water. This is a big problem for men after > > having Heart Bypass sugary I seem to hold more water yet there is no > damage > > to my heart. How would the dose be on Propionate as to Test C I do 80 mgs > of > > this every 3 days. > > > > If I switch to Propionate will it help a lot with holding water. I can > lose > > 9 lbs of water over night. > > > > I am going back on HGH a lower dose on .3 mgs I held a ton of water and > my > > Estradiol levels went nuts. I am hoping to be able to do better on HGH at > > .15 mgs and in time will be hoping to lower my Test C dose. I am told on > HGH > > one can get by on a lot less Test C shots. > > > > My Humatrope 6 mgs Pen is coming in the mail tomorrow. > > Co-Moderator > > Phil > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dr. Ullis, Do you prescribe t. cypionate to any of > > > your patients? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I've notice comparing labs 4 > > > months apart that Esterdiol has gone > > > > from > > > > > > 20 > > > > > > > > to 42, Thyroid T3 has fallen as > > > well as Testosterone levels. My > > > > Doctor > > > > > > has > > > > > > > > increased both Cytomel and > > > Testosterone. TShe noticed the Esterdiol > > > > > > rise and > > > > > > > > said it was nothing to worry > > > about. If I take DIM to lower > > > > Esterdiol > > > > > > will it > > > > > > > > just lower both T's as well? > > > > > > > > Thanks for all your help. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > Karlis C. Ullis, MD > > > > > > > Medical Director: Sports Medicine, > > > Anti-Aging & Preventive Medical > > > > Group > > > > > > > 2701 Ocean Park Blvd., Suite 101 > > > > > > > Santa , CA 90405 > > > > > > > TEL: [310.452.1990]; FAX: > > > [310.452.5134]; > > > > > > > EMAIL: kullismd@ > > > > > > > > > > > > > WEB: www.drkarlisullis.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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