Re: natural T alternatives

[Guest guest]

I tried tribulus for about 2 months and it did nothing for me. To be honest

there are no good trials undertaken with tribulus, other than the one that I

think was conducted in Bulgaria in the 70's. Even then the trial was flawed.

Vicky

>

> I am still wanting to keep T replacement as a last resort, since as Phil has

stated it is a point of no return. I was thinking about giving Tribulus and DIM

(they say it controls estrogen in men) a try for about 6 months before my next

blood test and was wondering if anyone has had any luck using these two items.

Thanks for any feedback.

>

[Guest guest]

Ive been doing DIM like how Phil has suggested. So far I think it works. Its

definately gotten my morning wood back. But, Im not going to get my T levels

checked until April when my next family doctor appointment is. I dont feel as

great as I did as when I was on androgel but this is an OTC way to try first.

I haven't tried Tribulus, in fact ive never even heard of it. Im also taking

Zinc, L-Arginine, pycnogenol, MACA, and TMG with the DIM.

>

> I am still wanting to keep T replacement as a last resort, since as Phil has

stated it is a point of no return. I was thinking about giving Tribulus and DIM

(they say it controls estrogen in men) a try for about 6 months before my next

blood test and was wondering if anyone has had any luck using these two items.

Thanks for any feedback.

>

[Guest guest]

Men on TRT that are leveled need next to check there Adreanls and Thyroid to

rule out a problem.

http://livingnetwork.co.za/hormones/adrenal-fatigue/

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: <ryanrettell@...>

> Subject: Re: natural T alternatives

>

> Date: Thursday, December 31, 2009, 1:27 AM

> Ive been doing DIM like how Phil has

> suggested. So far I think it works. Its definately gotten my

> morning wood back. But, Im not going to get my T levels

> checked until April when my next family doctor appointment

> is. I dont feel as great as I did as when I was on androgel

> but this is an OTC way to try first.

>

> I haven't tried Tribulus, in fact ive never even heard of

> it. Im also taking Zinc, L-Arginine, pycnogenol, MACA, and

> TMG with the DIM.

>

>

> >

> > I am still wanting to keep T replacement as a last

> resort, since as Phil has stated it is a point of no

> return.  I was thinking about giving Tribulus and DIM

> (they say it controls estrogen in men) a try for about 6

> months before my next blood test and was wondering if anyone

> has had any luck using these two items.  Thanks for any

> feedback.

> >

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

As others have said, DIM may help you a bit simply due to the fact that it will

lower your E2 levels. Arimidex would do the same thing, and it would do it much

better that DIM as well.

Tribulus is supposed to help raise your T levels by increasing your LH levels.

Thus if you are dealing with primary hypo, the tribulus will do little if not

absolutly nothing for you. Even if you are secondary, Tribulus is not going to

do you much good, and I would consider it a waste of time and money if you are

seriously trying to raise your T levels and to keep your E down. Tribulus has

been known to cause gynecomastia and to raise E levels as well.

What exactly are your concerns for just using exogenous T? Also, do not get

caught up in the marketing hyperbole about some ones gel, cream, or pellets

being all natural and " bio-identical " . Bio-idendical is more of marketing term

and not a true scientific term. The only T that is identical to that which is

made by the male testis is T made by the male tesis.

Nearly all of the T being sold today whether it is in the form of gels, creams,

patches, or shots is made from yams and soy. In the early days of TRT you could

find some exogenous T that was made from cholesterol, but that method of T

synthesis has not been used for a long time. The T injectables simply have an

estergroup attached to the T molecule. The fact that the T in androgel for

example is NOT idendical to the T produced by the male testis was proven when

Landis got busted for having massages with androgel. The C13 composition and

content of human made T and soy/yam derived T is NOT the same. From a marketing

point of view synthetic T typically referst to the injectables and various pill

forms of T which are modified to be able to survive first pass through the

liver. There is an old school oral T that is actually testosterone undecanote

which is the same as an injectable only it is taken orally.

Assuming that you are secondary and can actually produce T if your testis just

had enough LH, you could use HCG to increase your own natural T production

SB

[Guest guest]

Thanks to all for the replies.

SB-

My motivation is to try everything that I can do myself OTC first. Of course, i

would like to avoid the expense of using T replacement, not to mention replacing

T, then using Arimadex to control E2 and HGC to keep my testicles from shrinking

makes me very nervous, especially since i am only 40. But since my total levels

have been in the 300-400 range with free levels on the low side, at my age, I

know all those things are in my future, just trying to wait as long as i can.

This site has been so helpful I would call it a blessing, truly. My symptoms

are not severe, but I am certainly cranky, moody, esp. in the evenings,

undependable wood, etc. If i am looking at all this wrong, please feel free to

set me straight. Physically I am in good to excellent shape, but I have men in

my family who have not fared well with age. Looking at their symptoms, and what

I know now, I would bet a lot of money that low T is a major culprit. I am

determined to live not forever, but well!

thanks

>

> As others have said, DIM may help you a bit simply due to the fact that it

will lower your E2 levels. Arimidex would do the same thing, and it would do it

much better that DIM as well.

>

> Tribulus is supposed to help raise your T levels by increasing your LH levels.

Thus if you are dealing with primary hypo, the tribulus will do little if not

absolutly nothing for you. Even if you are secondary, Tribulus is not going to

do you much good, and I would consider it a waste of time and money if you are

seriously trying to raise your T levels and to keep your E down. Tribulus has

been known to cause gynecomastia and to raise E levels as well.

>

> What exactly are your concerns for just using exogenous T? Also, do not get

caught up in the marketing hyperbole about some ones gel, cream, or pellets

being all natural and " bio-identical " . Bio-idendical is more of marketing term

and not a true scientific term. The only T that is identical to that which is

made by the male testis is T made by the male tesis.

>

> Nearly all of the T being sold today whether it is in the form of gels,

creams, patches, or shots is made from yams and soy. In the early days of TRT

you could find some exogenous T that was made from cholesterol, but that method

of T synthesis has not been used for a long time. The T injectables simply have

an estergroup attached to the T molecule. The fact that the T in androgel for

example is NOT idendical to the T produced by the male testis was proven when

Landis got busted for having massages with androgel. The C13 composition and

content of human made T and soy/yam derived T is NOT the same. From a marketing

point of view synthetic T typically referst to the injectables and various pill

forms of T which are modified to be able to survive first pass through the

liver. There is an old school oral T that is actually testosterone undecanote

which is the same as an injectable only it is taken orally.

>

> Assuming that you are secondary and can actually produce T if your testis just

had enough LH, you could use HCG to increase your own natural T production

>

> SB

>

[Guest guest]

54y/0, been on test injections for 7 weeks.Taking 50mg twice a week.All I can

say is wow so far.Libido is back strong,rock hard erections,sense of well being

and leaning out with better muscle definition.This all in a very short time

frame.No repeat lab work but who cares with the way I have responded.My

testicles are somewhat smaller but they were huge to begin with so no issue.I

had low T and very low LH and FSH.MRI of pituitary normal.Test is dirt cheap and

I am willing to give up a little testicular size to feel like this.Always can

begin HCG if testicles skrink too much.So far couldn't be happier. Phil

> >

> > As others have said, DIM may help you a bit simply due to the fact that it

will lower your E2 levels. Arimidex would do the same thing, and it would do it

much better that DIM as well.

> >

> > Tribulus is supposed to help raise your T levels by increasing your LH

levels. Thus if you are dealing with primary hypo, the tribulus will do little

if not absolutly nothing for you. Even if you are secondary, Tribulus is not

going to do you much good, and I would consider it a waste of time and money if

you are seriously trying to raise your T levels and to keep your E down.

Tribulus has been known to cause gynecomastia and to raise E levels as well.

> >

> > What exactly are your concerns for just using exogenous T? Also, do not get

caught up in the marketing hyperbole about some ones gel, cream, or pellets

being all natural and " bio-identical " . Bio-idendical is more of marketing term

and not a true scientific term. The only T that is identical to that which is

made by the male testis is T made by the male tesis.

> >

> > Nearly all of the T being sold today whether it is in the form of gels,

creams, patches, or shots is made from yams and soy. In the early days of TRT

you could find some exogenous T that was made from cholesterol, but that method

of T synthesis has not been used for a long time. The T injectables simply have

an estergroup attached to the T molecule. The fact that the T in androgel for

example is NOT idendical to the T produced by the male testis was proven when

Landis got busted for having massages with androgel. The C13 composition and

content of human made T and soy/yam derived T is NOT the same. From a marketing

point of view synthetic T typically referst to the injectables and various pill

forms of T which are modified to be able to survive first pass through the

liver. There is an old school oral T that is actually testosterone undecanote

which is the same as an injectable only it is taken orally.

> >

> > Assuming that you are secondary and can actually produce T if your testis

just had enough LH, you could use HCG to increase your own natural T production

> >

> > SB

> >

>

[Guest guest]

You have the open door to supplement with T injections to bring yourself into

the upper portion of the range of excellence. Why would you want to admit to

being cranky, of low T, conscious of a family history, exist day to day

suffering. You are as a deer gazing into headlights.

You must not linger if you want to flourish. " The best of the best DO the

Best "

Move and position yourself to a favorable outcome. Tomorrow is not promised.

How can you be sure that inactivity will not allow family history etc, TO SEIZE

YOU?

Good intentions are not the same as good actions

Many of us were seduced in this manner by doctors. Phil searched high and low

for 20 years to find true solutions.

Omitting doing what is good is equally bad as doing the obvious wrong. Let

wisdom be abundant and one of your best friends.

ly you are deceiving yourself if your physical handsomeness makes you think

your in excellent health when your labs and own testimony say otherwise.

I made the same mistake with an aged German doctor who gave me such a loud riot

act shouting that most of his appointments fled the office

Lol-

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

Re: natural T alternatives

Thanks to all for the replies.

SB-

My motivation is to try everything that I can do myself OTC first. Of course, i

would like to avoid the expense of using T replacement, not to mention replacing

T, then using Arimadex to control E2 and HGC to keep my testicles from shrinking

makes me very nervous, especially since i am only 40. But since my total levels

have been in the 300-400 range with free levels on the low side, at my age, I

know all those things are in my future, just trying to wait as long as i can.

This site has been so helpful I would call it a blessing, truly. My symptoms

are not severe, but I am certainly cranky, moody, esp. in the evenings,

undependable wood, etc. If i am looking at all this wrong, please feel free to

set me straight. Physically I am in good to excellent shape, but I have men in

my family who have not fared well with age. Looking at their symptoms, and what

I know now, I would bet a lot of money that low T is a major culprit. I am

determined to live not forever, but well!

thanks

>

> As others have said, DIM may help you a bit simply due to the fact that it

will lower your E2 levels. Arimidex would do the same thing, and it would do it

much better that DIM as well.

>

> Tribulus is supposed to help raise your T levels by increasing your LH levels.

Thus if you are dealing with primary hypo, the tribulus will do little if not

absolutly nothing for you. Even if you are secondary, Tribulus is not going to

do you much good, and I would consider it a waste of time and money if you are

seriously trying to raise your T levels and to keep your E down. Tribulus has

been known to cause gynecomastia and to raise E levels as well.

>

> What exactly are your concerns for just using exogenous T? Also, do not get

caught up in the marketing hyperbole about some ones gel, cream, or pellets

being all natural and " bio-identical " . Bio-idendical is more of marketing term

and not a true scientific term. The only T that is identical to that which is

made by the male testis is T made by the male tesis.

>

> Nearly all of the T being sold today whether it is in the form of gels,

creams, patches, or shots is made from yams and soy. In the early days of TRT

you could find some exogenous T that was made from cholesterol, but that method

of T synthesis has not been used for a long time. The T injectables simply have

an estergroup attached to the T molecule. The fact that the T in androgel for

example is NOT idendical to the T produced by the male testis was proven when

Landis got busted for having massages with androgel. The C13 composition and

content of human made T and soy/yam derived T is NOT the same. From a marketing

point of view synthetic T typically referst to the injectables and various pill

forms of T which are modified to be able to survive first pass through the

liver. There is an old school oral T that is actually testosterone undecanote

which is the same as an injectable only it is taken orally.

>

> Assuming that you are secondary and can actually produce T if your testis just

had enough LH, you could use HCG to increase your own natural T production

>

> SB

>

[Guest guest]

I appreciate the candid reply. I really do, and of course, have no good

rebuttal. I think to answer you, I worry about starting at 40 years old. It is

a long way to 80+ years, and that is a long time to be doing the same meds over

and over. Weak argument, i know, but it is what is holding me back. And for

the record, i never refered to myself as " handsome " but that was funny! And for

those of us who are not blessed with " gigantic " balls to begin with, the thought

of raisins in my sack does bother me. Ha ha. Again, thanks for giving it to me

straight.

> >

> > As others have said, DIM may help you a bit simply due to the fact that it

will lower your E2 levels. Arimidex would do the same thing, and it would do it

much better that DIM as well.

> >

> > Tribulus is supposed to help raise your T levels by increasing your LH

levels. Thus if you are dealing with primary hypo, the tribulus will do little

if not absolutly nothing for you. Even if you are secondary, Tribulus is not

going to do you much good, and I would consider it a waste of time and money if

you are seriously trying to raise your T levels and to keep your E down.

Tribulus has been known to cause gynecomastia and to raise E levels as well.

> >

> > What exactly are your concerns for just using exogenous T? Also, do not get

caught up in the marketing hyperbole about some ones gel, cream, or pellets

being all natural and " bio-identical " . Bio-idendical is more of marketing term

and not a true scientific term. The only T that is identical to that which is

made by the male testis is T made by the male tesis.

> >

> > Nearly all of the T being sold today whether it is in the form of gels,

creams, patches, or shots is made from yams and soy. In the early days of TRT

you could find some exogenous T that was made from cholesterol, but that method

of T synthesis has not been used for a long time. The T injectables simply have

an estergroup attached to the T molecule. The fact that the T in androgel for

example is NOT idendical to the T produced by the male testis was proven when

Landis got busted for having massages with androgel. The C13 composition and

content of human made T and soy/yam derived T is NOT the same. From a marketing

point of view synthetic T typically referst to the injectables and various pill

forms of T which are modified to be able to survive first pass through the

liver. There is an old school oral T that is actually testosterone undecanote

which is the same as an injectable only it is taken orally.

> >

> > Assuming that you are secondary and can actually produce T if your testis

just had enough LH, you could use HCG to increase your own natural T production

> >

> > SB

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I was 37 when I went on TRT I am not 65 all I can tell you is even being on

Hormones I still ended up with damage to my heart because I would not go on

Growth Hormone. You need to read my story don't let your body go to shi* not

treating it the longer you go needing to treat your self the more you take off

the back of your life.

http://forums.realthyroidhelp.com/viewtopic.php?f=5 & t=9239

http://men.webmd.com/news/20070605/low-testosterone-may-up-male-mortality?ecd=wn\

l_men_072407

Co-Moderator

Phil

> From: jyoung9797 <jyoung9797@...>

> Subject: Re: natural T alternatives

>

> Date: Saturday, January 2, 2010, 2:58 PM

> I appreciate the candid reply. 

> I really do, and of course, have no good rebuttal.  I

> think to answer you, I worry about starting at 40 years

> old.  It is a long way to 80+ years, and that is a long

> time to be doing the same meds over and over.  Weak

> argument, i know, but it is what is holding me back. 

> And for the record, i never refered to myself as " handsome "

> but that was funny!  And for those of us who are not

> blessed with " gigantic " balls to begin with, the thought of

> raisins in my sack does bother me.  Ha ha.  Again,

> thanks for giving it to me straight.

>

>

> > >

> > > As others have said, DIM may help you a bit

> simply due to the fact that it will lower your E2 levels.

> Arimidex would do the same thing, and it would do it much

> better that DIM as well.

> > >

> > > Tribulus is supposed to help raise your T levels

> by increasing your LH levels.  Thus if you are dealing

> with primary hypo, the tribulus will do little if not

> absolutly nothing for you.  Even if you are secondary,

> Tribulus is not going to do you much good, and I would

> consider it a waste of time and money if you are seriously

> trying to raise your T levels and to keep your E down.

> Tribulus has been known to cause gynecomastia and to raise E

> levels as well.

> > >

> > > What exactly are your concerns for just using

> exogenous T?  Also, do not get caught up in the

> marketing hyperbole about some ones gel, cream, or pellets

> being all natural and " bio-identical " .  Bio-idendical

> is more of marketing term and not a true scientific

> term.  The only T that is identical to that which is

> made by the male testis is T made by the male tesis. 

> > >

> > > Nearly all of the T being sold today whether it

> is in the form of gels, creams, patches, or shots is made

> from yams and soy.  In the early days of TRT you could

> find some exogenous T that was made from cholesterol, but

> that method of T synthesis has not been used for a long

> time.  The T injectables simply have an estergroup

> attached to the T molecule.  The fact that the T in

> androgel for example is NOT idendical to the T produced by

> the male testis was proven when Landis got busted for having

> massages with androgel.  The C13 composition and

> content of human made T and soy/yam derived T is NOT the

> same. From a marketing point of view synthetic T typically

> referst to the injectables and various pill forms of T which

> are modified to be able to survive first pass through the

> liver.  There is an old school oral T that is actually

> testosterone undecanote which is the same as an injectable

> only it is taken orally.

> > >

> > > Assuming that you are secondary and can actually

> produce T if your testis just had enough LH, you could use

> HCG to increase your own natural T production

> > >

> > > SB

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Phil -

Thanks to you as well, as always. I have an annual physical coming up in

several months and will include the #4021 E2 test with my blood work. My hope,

only because it would seem to be the least expensive, cumbersome, whatever,

would be that my problem is high E2 and I can get things right just by taking

Arimadex. I cannot stress enough how helpful this board has been.

Thanks

> > > >

> > > > As others have said, DIM may help you a bit

> > simply due to the fact that it will lower your E2 levels.

> > Arimidex would do the same thing, and it would do it much

> > better that DIM as well.

> > > >

> > > > Tribulus is supposed to help raise your T levels

> > by increasing your LH levels.  Thus if you are dealing

> > with primary hypo, the tribulus will do little if not

> > absolutly nothing for you.  Even if you are secondary,

> > Tribulus is not going to do you much good, and I would

> > consider it a waste of time and money if you are seriously

> > trying to raise your T levels and to keep your E down.

> > Tribulus has been known to cause gynecomastia and to raise E

> > levels as well.

> > > >

> > > > What exactly are your concerns for just using

> > exogenous T?  Also, do not get caught up in the

> > marketing hyperbole about some ones gel, cream, or pellets

> > being all natural and " bio-identical " .  Bio-idendical

> > is more of marketing term and not a true scientific

> > term.  The only T that is identical to that which is

> > made by the male testis is T made by the male tesis. 

> > > >

> > > > Nearly all of the T being sold today whether it

> > is in the form of gels, creams, patches, or shots is made

> > from yams and soy.  In the early days of TRT you could

> > find some exogenous T that was made from cholesterol, but

> > that method of T synthesis has not been used for a long

> > time.  The T injectables simply have an estergroup

> > attached to the T molecule.  The fact that the T in

> > androgel for example is NOT idendical to the T produced by

> > the male testis was proven when Landis got busted for having

> > massages with androgel.  The C13 composition and

> > content of human made T and soy/yam derived T is NOT the

> > same. From a marketing point of view synthetic T typically

> > referst to the injectables and various pill forms of T which

> > are modified to be able to survive first pass through the

> > liver.  There is an old school oral T that is actually

> > testosterone undecanote which is the same as an injectable

> > only it is taken orally.

> > > >

> > > > Assuming that you are secondary and can actually

> > produce T if your testis just had enough LH, you could use

> > HCG to increase your own natural T production

> > > >

> > > > SB

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Lol.

Just enjoy being at your best! Post your victories because one us needs to

Know!!!

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

Re: natural T alternatives

I appreciate the candid reply. I really do, and of course, have no good

rebuttal. I think to answer you, I worry about starting at 40 years old. It is

a long way to 80+ years, and that is a long time to be doing the same meds over

and over. Weak argument, i know, but it is what is holding me back. And for

the record, i never refered to myself as " handsome " but that was funny! And for

those of us who are not blessed with " gigantic " balls to begin with, the thought

of raisins in my sack does bother me. Ha ha. Again, thanks for giving it to me

straight.

> >

> > As others have said, DIM may help you a bit simply due to the fact that it

will lower your E2 levels. Arimidex would do the same thing, and it would do it

much better that DIM as well.

> >

> > Tribulus is supposed to help raise your T levels by increasing your LH

levels. Thus if you are dealing with primary hypo, the tribulus will do little

if not absolutly nothing for you. Even if you are secondary, Tribulus is not

going to do you much good, and I would consider it a waste of time and money if

you are seriously trying to raise your T levels and to keep your E down.

Tribulus has been known to cause gynecomastia and to raise E levels as well.

> >

> > What exactly are your concerns for just using exogenous T? Also, do not get

caught up in the marketing hyperbole about some ones gel, cream, or pellets

being all natural and " bio-identical " . Bio-idendical is more of marketing term

and not a true scientific term. The only T that is identical to that which is

made by the male testis is T made by the male tesis.

> >

> > Nearly all of the T being sold today whether it is in the form of gels,

creams, patches, or shots is made from yams and soy. In the early days of TRT

you could find some exogenous T that was made from cholesterol, but that method

of T synthesis has not been used for a long time. The T injectables simply have

an estergroup attached to the T molecule. The fact that the T in androgel for

example is NOT idendical to the T produced by the male testis was proven when

Landis got busted for having massages with androgel. The C13 composition and

content of human made T and soy/yam derived T is NOT the same. From a marketing

point of view synthetic T typically referst to the injectables and various pill

forms of T which are modified to be able to survive first pass through the

liver. There is an old school oral T that is actually testosterone undecanote

which is the same as an injectable only it is taken orally.

> >

> > Assuming that you are secondary and can actually produce T if your testis

just had enough LH, you could use HCG to increase your own natural T production

> >

> > SB

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

On Sat, 02 Jan 2010 15:17:09 -0000, you wrote:

>54y/0, been on test injections for 7 weeks.Taking 50mg twice a week.All I can

say is wow so far.Libido is back strong,rock hard erections,sense of well being

and leaning out with better muscle definition.This all in a very short time

frame.No repeat lab work but who cares with the way I have responded.My

testicles are somewhat smaller but they were huge to begin with so no issue.I

had low T and very low LH and FSH.MRI of pituitary normal.Test is dirt cheap and

I am willing to give up a little testicular size to feel like this.Always can

begin HCG if testicles skrink too much.So far couldn't be happier. Phil

Congrats! It does feel good to feel good, doesn't it!