Re: Funding Doctors Legal Fees

[Guest guest]

Hi Kathleen,

I totally understand where you are coming from, I gave quite a bit of

money to the Natole legal fund (for me anyway) and was disappointed when I

heard what the final charges against him were. I waited to hear what the

charges for Orens were before I sent in my check, and I was satisfied, even

though they said he made money on Labs....how he did this I don't know, I

guess if he had an interest in a lab, he would. I believe laws were passed

awhile back, at least here in NJ, that doctors have to disclose if they have

any financial interest in an ancillary company to their patients before

referring them there. I remember my mother's doctor always insisting she go

to a certain XRay company, that was years ago. In this day an age of HMO's

and managed care, the insurance company determines where the patient goes

for lab, XRay and PT services.

If you still feel strongly about not contributing to legal fees, I hope

you will send a donation instead to the Lyme Alliance, or the LDF, they

always need our help.

Hugs,Marta, NJ

>From: Fyikat@...

>

>>

>I am not in favor of funding a doctors legal fees. My reasons being that I

>do not personally know them or their patients. I believe that they have

>helped many, many lyme patients and while I realize that this alone should

>warrant a call to arms by all those affected by Lyme - I need a little more

>info than simply a loss of liscense because of ??? I in no way mean any

>disrespect to Dr. Oren or any of his patients.

>

>I would like to explain a little here also. I sent a modest check to

benefit

>Dr. Natole. I willingly sent this very small fortune knowing how he helped

>so many people. My understanding of the charges as they were explained to

us

>was that the charges were for overdiagnosing and treating Lyme patients,

not

>ruling out other diseases etc..

>

>What I did not know until the appeal was denied was that Dr. Natole DID

>receive monies from IV companies. The IV company was also charged and

fined.

> It was a very hefty fine too from what I remember. THIS INFO WAS NOT

GIVEN

>TO US UP FRONT. When I read this I felt sort of had. I contacted the Lyme

>Alliance to explain this and really never received an adequate answer. It

>was explained that he did not tell his patients which company to use etc...

>but the large fines the IV company incurred leads me to believe that he

>probably received a lot. He presumedly gave this money for Lyme research.

I

>asked what research and never got an answer. A Lyme friend explained to me

>that every one did this a few years back. >

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/1/1999 1:02:38 AM Pacific Standard Time,

mlmccoy@... writes:

<< I waited to hear what the

charges for Orens were before I sent in my check, and I was satisfied, even

though they said he made money on Labs....how he did this I don't know, I

guess if he had an interest in a lab, he would. >>>>>

I can assure you, Dr. Orens has no interest in any labs whatsoever. He is

the typical " Country Doctor " ...just interested in caring for his pts. as he

sees fit on an individual basis. The charges of making money on labs was NOT

proven and was not an issue in the Hearing at OPMC...it was just discussed in

the beginning as far as I know. I have it directly that this is total

nonsense and I believe it is untrue. Dr. O's character is excellent.

If I'm wrong about the following statement, someone please correct me: I

HEARD that in Dr. Natole's case that he received poor legal advice in

accepting a dinner out with a lab person or things like that - that was

construed as a " kick-back " . Our doctors are too busy to check into a lot of

things themselves and in this case, he listened to the wrong person. That's

how I heard it.

My question is this: What about all those pharmaceutical " gift " pens,

calendars, etc., that we see in the doctor's offices? Are those things

construed as receiving a " kick-back " ? My ex used to entertain and take

potential clients out to dinner all the time and he was never accused of

taking " kick-backs " or " bribing " anyone. I just thought it was part of the

Corporate World! Maybe I was married to a criminal for 23 years and never

knew it! I'mma confused.

[Guest guest]

Marta,

Thanks for the understanding about not funding Dr. Oren's case. You know I

am probably wrong about the whole thing but it's just that unless you have

all the facts it is impossible for the average jo to know what is really

going on.

I suppose if you contacted the courts or went to look up the records and a

charge was filed they might actually have the evidence to back it up????

As for lunches and dinners and drug pens being construed as kick backs I

don't think that counts. If it does the doctors I work for are in trouble.

Anyway thanks for your understanding. I am sure that Dr. Orens and Natole

are wonderful people but I just can't give money unless I know all the facts.

We had a Lyme doctor here that treated and helped many, many people. He

also took money from pharmaceutical companies, he had one of THEIR nurses

work in his office seeing his lyme patients. He was charged with tax

evasion, ran some type of pyramid scheme business and you wouldn't believe

all the stuff he did. You just have to be careful. Gensys is a lesson we

can all learn from too.

Kathleen

[Guest guest]

Denim, ( I am more used to this name after three years)

You are so right, it is the way of the world, my husband works for the

federal government, and now they are very strict about taking anything from

their vendors, years ago it was common for them to accept large expensive

gifts from the vendors who wanted contracts, or to keep on their good side.

As for poor Doc Orens, I doubted very much that the lab story was valid, but

it was disclosed by someone and I read it, that will not stop me from

contributing to his defense.

As for the pharmaceutical companies, that is the biggest joke of all, kick

backs galore.

Hugs,

Marta NJ

>From: DenimLD@...

>

>>I can assure you, Dr. Orens has no interest in any labs whatsoever. He is

>the typical " Country Doctor " ...just interested in caring for his pts. as he

>sees fit on an individual basis. The charges of making money on labs was

NOT

>proven and was not an issue in the Hearing at OPMC...it was just discussed

in

>the beginning as far as I know. I have it directly that this is total

>nonsense and I believe it is untrue. Dr. O's character is excellent.

>

>If I'm wrong about the following statement, someone please correct me: I

>HEARD that in Dr. Natole's case that he received poor legal advice in

>accepting a dinner out with a lab person or things like that - that was

>construed as a " kick-back " . Our doctors are too busy to check into a lot

of

>things themselves and in this case, he listened to the wrong person.

That's

>how I heard it.

>

>My question is this: What about all those pharmaceutical " gift " pens,

>calendars, etc., that we see in the doctor's offices? Are those things

>construed as receiving a " kick-back " ? My ex used to entertain and take

>potential clients out to dinner all the time and he was never accused of

>taking " kick-backs " or " bribing " anyone. I just thought it was part of the

>Corporate World! Maybe I was married to a criminal for 23 years and never

>knew it! I'mma confused.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/1/1999 6:07:37 PM Pacific Standard Time, Fyikat@...

writes:

<< Anyway thanks for your understanding. I am sure that Dr. Orens and Natole

are wonderful people but I just can't give money unless I know all the

facts.

We had a Lyme doctor here that treated and helped many, many people. >>

You want the facts? Call me. Dr. Orens was rail-roaded by a Kangaroo Court.

Jo - 505/890-5155

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/1/99 9:06:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, Fyikat@...

writes:

<< As for lunches and dinners and drug pens being construed as kick backs I

don't think that counts. If it does the doctors I work for are in trouble.

>>

but they are kickbacks....often doctors are treated to " free trips " for

medical seminars...and it all should count...

b

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/2/99 2:05:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, rod@...

writes:

<< Just because a

Pharm Co pays who says the Dr will owe them anything? >>

noone says...it is a bribe of sorts...if you disagree that it is...fine, but

I know doctors are often swayed by drug reps.....b

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/2/99 2:05:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, rod@...

writes:

<< Its expensive to be a Dr

(yes pay is good, BUT.........) our Lyme Drs are operating (in my opinion)

just by the skin of their teeth, do you realize how much expense they are

absorbing because ins wont pay or they are tagged as a " Lyme Dr " >>

to make it clear...this is being discussed as doctors in general...not Lyme

Doctors...ever looked lately into your doctors or ANY doctors freebie drug

cabinet? They often are supplied with enough free drugs to treat a 3rd world

country.....Bernadette

[Guest guest]

Why shouldnt Drs get 'free' trips to seminars!?! Its expensive to be a Dr

(yes pay is good, BUT.........) our Lyme Drs are operating (in my opinion)

just by the skin of their teeth, do you realize how much expense they are

absorbing because ins wont pay or they are tagged as a " Lyme Dr " thats a

heavy price to pay so I say send them FREE to these seminars. Just because a

Pharm Co pays who says the Dr will owe them anything?! If they did then we

would need to revamp everything from the Prez on down, talk about kickbacks!

Lookout there! Pepipony

Re: [Lyme-aid] Funding Doctors Legal Fees

> From: BratDet@...

>

> In a message dated 12/1/99 9:06:28 PM Eastern Standard Time,

Fyikat@...

> writes:

>

> << As for lunches and dinners and drug pens being construed as kick backs

I

> don't think that counts. If it does the doctors I work for are in

trouble.

> >>

> but they are kickbacks....often doctors are treated to " free trips " for

> medical seminars...and it all should count...

> b

>

> > Send to -Offtopiconelist messages unrelated to lyme, please.

> /archive/lyme-aid

> /archives.cgi/Lyme-Documents

> To unsubscribe, send email to -unsubscribeonelist

> You may substitute " subscribe " , or " digest " or " normal " for

> the word " unsubscribe " ( " normal " is the opposite of " digest " ). Leave

blank both the message and subject header.

>

[Guest guest]

Dr. Natole was found not guilty by the judge, but the medical board still

sanctioned him.

Connie, MI

[Guest guest]

Jo,

I was thinking the exact same thing. It has long been part of the corporate

world to take clients out, etc. And of course the Sales reps give doctor's

free samples, in the hopes that they will Rx in the future. I don't see

anything wrong with that, as patients we also benefit. My doctor often gives

me samples before giving me an Rx, so that I can see if it works before I

have to pay for it. I guess they just use these examples along with the

other charges, but you are right, its confusing, why should that be wrong?

My doctor's office said they (sales reps) even bring lunch for the entire

staff on occasion, its there way of getting the doctor's attention -

competition is out there and they have to try something to be the one to get

in. Seems to me, its plain old commerce, and our commerce in the US is based

on competition, and if it wasn't we wouldn't have quality, sort of like Bill

Gates and his monopoly practices. He leaves us with no choice, we are stuck

with his products. I believe in competition and fair trade, etc. So I don't

think its wrong for doctor's to accept anything from the all the different

companies. Doesn't make any sense.

Vicki, Md

>From: DenimLD@...

>

>

>My question is this: What about all those pharmaceutical " gift " pens,

>calendars, etc., that we see in the doctor's offices? Are those things

>construed as receiving a " kick-back " ? My ex used to entertain and take

>potential clients out to dinner all the time and he was never accused of

>taking " kick-backs " or " bribing " anyone. I just thought it was part of the

>Corporate World! Maybe I was married to a criminal for 23 years and never

>knew it! I'mma confused.

>