Guest guest Posted November 25, 2007 Report Share Posted November 25, 2007 Not always. Many people are high in copper primarily from copper pipes but also other sources. Irene At 08:41 PM 11/25/2007, you wrote: How do we know if we are deficient in copper? If seleniun and copper are antagonistic, do we simply need it if we take zinc? Thanks, >>>Selenium is needed in amounts of 200 - 400 mcg. Zinc at 50 mgs but make sure you also complement with copper at about 2 mgs. They are antagonistic so take at different times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 26, 2007 Report Share Posted November 26, 2007 : "How do we know if we are deficient in copper?" A hair test might be useful. Ceruloplasmin- a copper transport protein- blood test might help. RBC copper is supposed to be an excellent test. An alternative lab is probably needed for this. Some, like Sally Fallon of Nourishing Traditions, suggests that copper deficiency is widespread in the US. We hear a lot about copper toxicity, because it is very serious, but we don't hear nearly as much about deficiency. I would supplement at least a 10:1 zinc:copper. For 50 mgs zinc, that would be 5 mgs copper. suggests that women might need more like a 5:1. He has great info on thyroid and mineral deficiencies here: www.ithyroid.com Much of his site seems related to hyperT, but if you read through it, he gives much info on hypoT as well. He recently said that he has had normal thyroid levels, since '98. He did it through nutrition! -Olif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 26, 2007 Report Share Posted November 26, 2007 Hi Irene, I had a heavy metal challenge test and copper didn't show up, but my results page says that "renal excretion is a minor route ofexcretion for some elements (Cu, Fe, Mn, Zinc), urinary excretion may not influence body stores." So that is no help at all. LOL The building that I've lived in for 22+ years was built in 1965. Does anyone know if that is before copper started to be used for pipes? >>>Not always. Many people are high in copper primarily from copper pipes but also other sources. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 26, 2007 Report Share Posted November 26, 2007 Hi Olif, I did call the office of the doc who ordered the metal testing. She said that it was OK to take 2mg a day. Next question: where do I get that? I've never seen it in with the vitamins I get. My finances do not allow for any more testing. I do take (for a long time now) 50mg zinc. I did look at this site, but it is his own experience. I have a delicate system, hypoparathyroid, hypothyroid, diabetes. . . so I am reluctant to use too much copper. Thank you for writing, >>> I would supplement at least a 10:1 zinc:copper. For 50 mgs zinc, that would be 5 mgs copper. suggests that women might need more like a 5:1. He has great info on thyroid and mineral deficiencies here: www.ithyroid.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 26, 2007 Report Share Posted November 26, 2007 Hi , I use Carlson's copper, because it is a usable form- glycinate, I think. You have to cut the tablet in half though. If I remember right, does say that hypoT people need more zinc than others. -Olif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 26, 2007 Report Share Posted November 26, 2007 Ways to get excessive copper. Some of mine include: Vegetarian diet with a metabolism that does not tolerate or do well on one; copper pipes; copper IUD (this is the one that messed me up the most); hot Tubs; and swimming pools that use copper agents. I wonder about tests too, some times high tissue levels of elements can mean the body is throwing off this item and not retaining it. Personally, I am moving towards symptoms over testing. My ND goes for this approach as well. Karima Not always. Many people are high in copper primarily from copper pipes but also other sources. Irene Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 27, 2007 Report Share Posted November 27, 2007 Steph: "My hair tests showed that I was low in Copper. That is why I supplemented with my zinc." Mine too. My zinc is too high. And, like someone mentioned, my doctor knows I am supplementing, although I am not sure if this is her area...I might talk with a nutritionist soon. Another way to monitor is possibly thyroid hormone. suggests getting thyroid hormone levels tested every 3 months. If they get too low, you are taking too much copper or not enough zinc. If they are too high, you are taking too much zinc or not enough copper. Right now my free T4 is a little high, TSH is too low. My free T3 is low, but I think that is due to low selenium. That was low in my hair as well, even after supplementing at 200 mcg for several months. A hair analysis can be useful. -Olif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2010 Report Share Posted August 14, 2010 Sorry for the long post, but Ive been reading earlier posts concerning copper levels and supplementation and wanted to double check and make sure I have the info right. My son's hair test shows low copper (8.8, ref range 11-32), with Zn/Cu ratio 19.3. Do I have it correct that the hair test isnt the best indicator of copper levels? His post urine metals test also showed low copper(didnt do a challege test, just collected urine after last dose of chelator for the round) .021, ref range ..012-.12. We're still waiting for blood test results (annual CBC, ferritin, thyroid, lipid, etc) and our DAN wants us to supplement copper. Am I right in understanding that this would not be a good thing? Should I just focus on giving copper rich foods? We're currently chelating 7 mg DMPS, 5 mg ALA. Do we need to reduce the doses or is it ok to continue with the current dose? One last question (maybe 2!), His hair test shows low calcium, lithium and magnesium, but the urine test shows the opposite. Is there a reason the two would show such different results and which test should I be relying on? Thanks Karla Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2010 Report Share Posted August 14, 2010 check for elevated serum plasma and depressed plasma zinc. Check the ceruloplamuin levels. Ceruloplasmin carries 90% of copper in our plasma. Greater-than-normal ceruloplasmin levels may indicate or be noticed in Alzheimer's disease, Schizophrenia, obsessive-compulsive disorder, and as we now know, in autism, as well. It also makes me wonder if OCD in our kids could not be coming from high copper in ceruloplasmin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2010 Report Share Posted August 14, 2010 Does his hair test meet counting rules? then you might not be able to use the levels to actually determine what it going on. I wouldnt sup the copper even though the hair test and urine test showed low. I would chelate and retest in 6 months. Maybe - maybe - back off the zinc for a while and see what happens there, or change the form of zinc. I am not an expert but it also sounds to me like there is magnesium, and calcium. What sups are you giving? are you using mg? which form? Low lithium is common with Hg toxicitiy. Not nec means there is low lithium if the hair test meets counting rules, but sometimes kids respond to sup lithium. we have low lith here and i have not supped it though. The dose I cant comment on because I dont know the weight of your child. Does he seem to be tolerating the round and post round symptoms ok? > > Sorry for the long post, but Ive been reading earlier posts concerning copper levels and supplementation and wanted to double check and make sure I have the info right. > > My son's hair test shows low copper (8.8, ref range 11-32), with Zn/Cu ratio 19.3. Do I have it correct that the hair test isnt the best indicator of copper levels? > > His post urine metals test also showed low copper(didnt do a challege test, just collected urine after last dose of chelator for the round) .021, ref range ..012-.12. We're still waiting for blood test results (annual CBC, ferritin, thyroid, lipid, etc) and our DAN wants us to supplement copper. Am I right in understanding that this would not be a good thing? Should I just focus on giving copper rich foods? > > We're currently chelating 7 mg DMPS, 5 mg ALA. Do we need to reduce the doses or is it ok to continue with the current dose? > > One last question (maybe 2!), His hair test shows low calcium, lithium and magnesium, but the urine test shows the opposite. Is there a reason the two would show such different results and which test should I be relying on? > > Thanks > > Karla > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2010 Report Share Posted August 14, 2010 Zinc was not above the reference range on the hair test(190), but was up there at 170. We werent giving extra zinc, but the old multi was alot higher(40 mg) than the one we are using now (15 mg). Our Dan wants him to take a trace mineral complex that has 30 mg zinc and 2mg of copper. Seems to me like that would defeat the purpose if his zinc levels are already at the higher end. Think Ill concentrate on food, just to be safe. Karla > > > > Sorry for the long post, but Ive been reading earlier posts concerning copper levels and supplementation and wanted to double check and make sure I have the info right. > > > > My son's hair test shows low copper (8.8, ref range 11-32), with Zn/Cu ratio 19.3. Do I have it correct that the hair test isnt the best indicator of copper levels? > > > > His post urine metals test also showed low copper(didnt do a challege test, just collected urine after last dose of chelator for the round) .021, ref range ..012-.12. We're still waiting for blood test results (annual CBC, ferritin, thyroid, lipid, etc) and our DAN wants us to supplement copper. Am I right in understanding that this would not be a good thing? Should I just focus on giving copper rich foods? > > > > We're currently chelating 7 mg DMPS, 5 mg ALA. Do we need to reduce the doses or is it ok to continue with the current dose? > > > > One last question (maybe 2!), His hair test shows low calcium, lithium and magnesium, but the urine test shows the opposite. Is there a reason the two would show such different results and which test should I be relying on? > > > > Thanks > > > > Karla > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2010 Report Share Posted August 14, 2010 He didnt meet the counting rules, but there is some deranged mineral transport. He takes 1200 mg Cal Citrate, 500 mg Mag citrate. He has oxalate problems so the calcium and magnesium are likely binding oxalate. We are trying ionic lithium, 5 drops a day. Havent had any issues chelating other than mild yeast flare ups now and again. Lots of good gains and no real negatives at this point. The doses are at the low end for his weight. I just wasnt sure if low copper required me to lower them further. The only recommended sups we are not giving alot of is Vit C and no milk thistle because it makes his oxalate issues worse. We give more Vit E and Grapeseed extract for additional antioxidant support and artichoke extract for liver support. Karla would chelate and retest in 6 months. Maybe - maybe - back off the zinc for a while and see what happens there, or change the form of zinc. > > I am not an expert but it also sounds to me like there is magnesium, and calcium. What sups are you giving? are you using mg? which form? > > Low lithium is common with Hg toxicitiy. Not nec means there is low lithium if the hair test meets counting rules, but sometimes kids respond to sup lithium. we have low lith here and i have not supped it though. > > The dose I cant comment on because I dont know the weight of your child. Does he seem to be tolerating the round and post round symptoms ok? > > > > > > Sorry for the long post, but Ive been reading earlier posts concerning copper levels and supplementation and wanted to double check and make sure I have the info right. > > > > My son's hair test shows low copper (8.8, ref range 11-32), with Zn/Cu ratio 19.3. Do I have it correct that the hair test isnt the best indicator of copper levels? > > > > His post urine metals test also showed low copper(didnt do a challege test, just collected urine after last dose of chelator for the round) .021, ref range ..012-.12. We're still waiting for blood test results (annual CBC, ferritin, thyroid, lipid, etc) and our DAN wants us to supplement copper. Am I right in understanding that this would not be a good thing? Should I just focus on giving copper rich foods? > > > > We're currently chelating 7 mg DMPS, 5 mg ALA. Do we need to reduce the doses or is it ok to continue with the current dose? > > > > One last question (maybe 2!), His hair test shows low calcium, lithium and magnesium, but the urine test shows the opposite. Is there a reason the two would show such different results and which test should I be relying on? > > > > Thanks > > > > Karla > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 14, 2010 Report Share Posted August 14, 2010 Hi Karla I think that Calcium and Magnesium in a hair test often moves in the opposite direction as to body stores as per Andy's HTI book so this would seem to make sense. Kenny > > > > > > Sorry for the long post, but Ive been reading earlier posts concerning copper levels and supplementation and wanted to double check and make sure I have the info right. > > > > > > My son's hair test shows low copper (8.8, ref range 11-32), with Zn/Cu ratio 19.3. Do I have it correct that the hair test isnt the best indicator of copper levels? > > > > > > His post urine metals test also showed low copper(didnt do a challege test, just collected urine after last dose of chelator for the round) .021, ref range .012-.12. We're still waiting for blood test results (annual CBC, ferritin, thyroid, lipid, etc) and our DAN wants us to supplement copper. Am I right in understanding that this would not be a good thing? Should I just focus on giving copper rich foods? > > > > > > We're currently chelating 7 mg DMPS, 5 mg ALA. Do we need to reduce the doses or is it ok to continue with the current dose? > > > > > > One last question (maybe 2!), His hair test shows low calcium, lithium and magnesium, but the urine test shows the opposite. Is there a reason the two would show such different results and which test should I be relying on? > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > Karla > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 15, 2010 Report Share Posted August 15, 2010 Thanks Kenny! I'll have to break out the book and do some reading. Its showing the same for lithium, high on the urine, low on the hair. As for the copper it sounds like the blood, hair and urine should all be low if theres a true deficiency. No results from the blood tests yet, but Im very uncomfortable with the idea of supplementing copper since even small amounts can become toxic quickly. Karla > > > > > > > > Sorry for the long post, but Ive been reading earlier posts concerning copper levels and supplementation and wanted to double check and make sure I have the info right. > > > > > > > > My son's hair test shows low copper (8.8, ref range 11-32), with Zn/Cu ratio 19.3. Do I have it correct that the hair test isnt the best indicator of copper levels? > > > > > > > > His post urine metals test also showed low copper(didnt do a challege test, just collected urine after last dose of chelator for the round) .021, ref range .012-.12. We're still waiting for blood test results (annual CBC, ferritin, thyroid, lipid, etc) and our DAN wants us to supplement copper. Am I right in understanding that this would not be a good thing? Should I just focus on giving copper rich foods? > > > > > > > > We're currently chelating 7 mg DMPS, 5 mg ALA. Do we need to reduce the doses or is it ok to continue with the current dose? > > > > > > > > One last question (maybe 2!), His hair test shows low calcium, lithium and magnesium, but the urine test shows the opposite. Is there a reason the two would show such different results and which test should I be relying on? > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > Karla > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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