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[Guest guest]

> After taking them for two weeks the Kinesiologist

> said the Candida was down from 58% to 47%.

What method is s/he using to measure this?

KB

[Guest guest]

> > After taking them for two weeks the Kinesiologist

> > said the Candida was down from 58% to 47%.

>

> What method is s/he using to measure this?

>

> KB

Hello KB,

She used muscle testing to ascertain what level it was at. Sorry,

the test doesn't involve test tubes, and does require a little faith

in the method.

Muscle testing is an accepted practice in general medicine, not just

alternate therapy. You can read a bit about it here:

http://www.worldtrans.org/TP/TP2/TP2A-67.HTML

and on Tripp's pages

http://candidarecovery.terrashare.com/muscle.htm

I don't really want to get into a debate about quackery, I get enough

ribbing about it from my friends ;-). However, I'm happy to share my

experience with people who are interested. I'm also interested to

hear from others who've found kinesiology effective. My practitioner

has also used muscle testing to discover if certain supplements I'm

taking are actually helping, or whether they are not the most

effective for me. Muscle Testing is also helpful to find out which

foods I'm sensitive to.

I've chosen Kinesiology as a means of tackling my Candida because I

know someone who cleared up her Candida using this particular

practitioner. Sometimes I have a bit of trouble with the whole thing

myself, but I'm sticking with it because I've seen results; which is

as good a reason as any.

Debs

[Guest guest]

Debs - I'd love to know more about muscle testing. My homeopath

uses VEGA testing, which again requires a little faith - might be a

similar thing, in fact. It measures my electrical responses to

various substances - I hold a big electrode and he makes a circuit

with my toe and completes it with various substances in a big

scary machine, an then looks to see which substances normalise

my body electrics and which disrupt them.

Ann

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

http://www.willow-web.net Quality Web Design

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Guest guest]

,

My first career was as a nurse, but I had to quit in

1972 because I could no longer stand and walk 8 hr.

shifts. Also, I injured my back pulling on 300 lb.

patients. (At the time, I weighted less than 100.)

Later, I went back to college and earned several

degrees so I could do administration work. That

worked until 1994 when I became totally disabled.

Even though I was an administrator, there was still a

lot of walking, standing, lifting. Also, I have

arthritis too and it got so I could not work on the

computer for long periods of time. I was in my 50's

before I had to give it all up. At 59, last Oct., I

had my surgeries, the first back surgeries for me. I

am still recovering.

If you get to the point that you can not work in the

hospital, consider changing careers if possible. I

was able to work much longer by doing that. Now, I'm

60, so I guess my working days are over. Hopefully,

when I get better, I can resume writing. Before

surgery, I started putting some of my writing into

this computer. I'd like to continue that and make it

into a book of my selected writings. That way, I can

send it to certain people who have requested it.

I have a small orchard. I hope to be able to work

some in it by the time spring arrives. I asked my

husband to fix some raised beds for me so I can reach

it without bending and still be able to work with a

few new plants.

Right now, my puppy is causing me to learn new

positions so I can care for him. When he has an

accident, he loves to go with me to the bathroom and

watch it go down the commode. I've had to start

shutting the bathroom door though; he found the toilet

paper wan was playing tug-of-war with it and had it

half way through the house when I caught him.

=====

Jeanette

__________________________________________________

Get personalized email addresses from - only $35

a year! http://personal.mail./

[Guest guest]

Thanks so much for your warm welcome! Looking through the archives this seems

such a friendly and sympathetic list.

1) What is MSM and how does it work? I take Kelp for the thyroid/iodine

because I have learnt that synthetic hormones (which include corticosteroids

and steroid hormones estrogen and progestogen) interfere with the thyroid

which can also be implicated in hair loss. I also take L-Lysine, an amino

acid, which is also supposed to help hair loss and also because I don't eat

meat. I also take Agnus Castus which is supposed to make a good environment

to stimulate natural progesterone to be produced in the adrenal glands which

can then counteract any circulating excess testosterone -- progestogen is a

testosterone analogue and not the same as progesterone. It is known to be the

cause of male pattern hairloss in women. I also take zinc and a B-complex.

And occasionally take extract of Black Cohosh. Also to balance the hormones.

I avoid progesterone and wild yam because I have learnt they are still

synthetic extractions and act as hormone replacements rather than stimulating

the body's own natural hormones. I also wash my hair every day with a cradle

cap baby shampoo and occasionally use Nizoral shampoo. I think my hairloss

definitely had something to do with the ulcerations in my mouth which the

docs all pretended not to see. I have learnt that mouth ulcers are outcrops

of fungal infection and hair loss is associated with excess yeast as well as

testosterone dominance.

I do also take iron of course and a multinutrient. It has all helped a lot

and my hair really started growing after I started on the iron (which I take

with vitamin C which I'm hoping will also help my vascular problems).

2) I have taken probiotics, although I'm not taking them at the moment on

their own but as part of a " Yeast Raiders " formula. I do eat goats milk

natural yoghurt.

3) Yes, I know about corticosteroids (and the other synthetic hormones) --

now but I have not always known about it of course. I'm hoping once I'm off a

ll steroid hormones to cut down on the number of pills I'm taking.

I have found a thin book called Gut Reaction by a lady called Gudrun Jonsson

here in Britain very helpful, although maybe there are many more books out

there like it. What I like about her approach is that she appreciates that

everyone is an individual and things have to be tailored for the individual.

I also like her because she says it's important not to be too harsh in

treating things. For example she recommends starting off with children's

probiotics and then working one's way up to adult strength. It's a slow

method, but it's all very understandable and understanding. She also

recommends grating a green apple and leaving it overnight before having it in

the morning -- something my mother tells me her German mother used to do for

her and her sister whenever they were ill! She was very shocked when I told

her it was in a book <grin>!

I should add that I have no vested interest, commercial or otherwise, in any

of the books I mention in this message. Has anyone used chelation therapy or

colonic cleansing? I would like to know more about these and any other tips.

I'm afraid I do disagree with you about the doctors. There is plenty of

literature for example about how the so-called contraceptive pill has ruined

women's health as well as the dangers of all synthetic hormones. There is a

doctor in Britain, doctor Ellen Grant who took part in the original trials

here of the " pill " and was a supporter at first. She has been virulently

against this poisoning of women now for years and also talks about what is

happening now to a generation of children, the children of the " pill " .

The book is called " The Bitter Pill " and she quotes medical research going

back even to the days when the " pill " was being put on trial in Puerto Rico

and how women died before it was released on to the worldwide market. She

also points out how the tests were skewed and how tests continue to be skewed

when it comes to the " pill " . She also points out how the rates of cervical

and other cancers has risen dramatically since the introduction of the pill.

She also talks about yeast infections with the " contraceptive pill " and

" hormone replacement therapy " , ie all synthetic steroid hormones.

The book was published in the 1980s and she has never been sued. The book is

often quoted by both American and British organisations aware of all this,

but is now out of print, I think. I should add, I'm not against contraception

and neither is Dr Grant. But these drugs damage women's health. There has

been a big kerfuffle in Britain lately about deep vein thromboses on flights,

blaming airlines. What has emerged is that the young people who have died

from DVTs after taking long haul flights have been young women and there have

been postings on the internet about the use of synthetic steroid hormones ie

the " contraceptive pill " and thromboses and air travel. The most the

mainstream media will publish is that women on the " pill " are more at risk of

DVT.

A more easily obtainable book in the USA, available since the 1970s, would be

Women and the Crisis in Sex Hormones, I think the writers are husband and

wife doctors called Seaman. I think it was the Seamans who note how synthetic

steroid hormones were used in experiments in Nazi concentration camps and the

results well documented. In Britain GPs have always been paid extra fees by

the authorities for prescribing the " contraceptive pill " . I don't know if the

same applies to " hormone replacement therapy " since its made up of the same

synthetic hormones. BTW my GP tried to insist that I go on " hormone

replacement therapy " and I refused. They try to make out that HRT is

different from the " pill " . It's not.

No, it's not initially malice. The doctors wouldn't do it if they didn't make

cash out of it. It also keeps Lupus, ME and numerous other specialities

going. Women have individual weaknesses and the way these synthetic hormones

affect them comes out in different ways, according to the individual. A lot

of these women (and I include myself amongst them apart from my menstrual

problems) could probably have got away with it, even though food is so bad

now, if they hadn't been put on synthetic steroid hormones. And of course the

drug companies are multi nationals and huge profit making enterprises albeit

selling their drugs to the various welfare states all over the world, whether

the welfare states are administered through insurance companies or socialised

medicine. I've learnt helluva lot with all I've been through. It's all

provable. I could demonstrate all the lies I've been told and quote the

deviousness used by the doctors to try and hide how the drugs have damaged my

health. I can show written proof. The attempt to change the time scales over

the ceasing of my menstruation is just one example. But it would just be too

much and take even more pages than this has already done! Maybe this is going

a little bit off topic. I wasn't going to go into all this, but since you

brought up about ignorance, I felt I had to answer... Perhaps if anyone is

interested in discussing this more and further, they can e-mail me privately

unless it's directly relevant to this list? Thanks for your stamina for

hanging here until the end <vbg>!

Regards

Alice

In a message dated 9/8/01 5:43:42 PM, GiftedlyOutspoken@... writes:

<< Good Lord, I thought doctors had done *me* wrong!

Yikes!

MSM is good for the hair loss -- although I seem to

have built up a " tolerance " to it very quickly, and

keep forgetting to increase my dosage!

What I didn't see mentioned in your regimen was

PROBIOTICS. At the very least, eat some yogurt. (that

doesn't seem to count as " dairy " -- several on this

list who are on a " dairy free " diet still eat yogurt.)

Better yet, get a probiotic supplement -- the more

strains, the better. Not sure what is available on

your side of the " pond " ;^)

Speaking of which -- does anybody know if Great Smokies

can mail a test that far?

I assume you are aware that steroids are one of the

culprits in candida overgrowth? You will be much

better off when you are off steroids!

As for the doctors, you'll find that our contempt for

them is fairly universal! But, as much as they have

put me through, and as many obvious symptoms as they

have ignored, I *don't* believe they *intentionally*

prescribe things to make us sick. You may have run

into one with a bad ego there -- but for the most part

I think it is IGNORANCE rather than malice. And, to a

certain extent, they don't *bother* finding out about

diet and supplements because (at least in our medical

system) there's not a pharmaceutical rep giving them

samples and freebies! And you don't need to come to a

doctor for a prescription for food and supplements. It

would require much " unrewarded " time and effort on

their part to learn about and promote dietary

solutions. It is unfortunate that " being a doctor " has

become more about social status than about healing :^(

Stick around this list -- it's like one big group hug

from people who have been there! You have a long road

ahead of you, but at least you're on the RIGHT road

this time!

~~~~~

~~

~~~~~

P.S.: I see that even Her Majesty's subjects can't

escape AOL! ;^) lol

>>

[Guest guest]

you poor girl! they have really dragged you thru the dirt! I'll have to

reread the begining of your post, I shall remember you in my prayers, Your

going to have to count of God to help you thru this, he is the only " DR " who

knows what is going on. have you read any books or sites on Candida? have you

had any die-offs?

this is my reasoning: others will have theres, stay off the vitamins, Yeast

gets most of the nutrients, it's a waste of money except pro-biotics, you

need 4 anti-fungals at least to rotate every 4 days, i'll wait to hear from

you on these. Good luck dear, my heart goes out to you! Mog

[Guest guest]

You are just so kind and sweet! Thank you!

I didn't have any " die offs " until a week or so ago, I don't think. We had

a hot spell and I wore flip flops which I gripped between my big toe

and my second toe. I think the flip flops rubbed on the skin. I shouldn't

have worn them but nothing really occurred then. Then the other week

I decided to try Citricidal (extract of grapefruit seed) which I think is

just too harsh for me. I had a very uncomfortable night, was sick and

then an ulceration broke out on my second toe. I think a bit of an infection

had lurking there but the Citricidal was the final straw. I have refused a

course of antibiotics and to take any painkillers. I'm treating it with at

first iodine soaked pads and now with an anti biotic powder, all of which is

working slowly but surely. Maybe

the Citricidal has done some good but I prefer a slower way, if it's going

to cause all this trouble. I only took a couple of drops in water.

Thinking about it, I think I may have had a few other times when my

problem with lying flat has reoccured occasionally but it has always passed

fairly quickly, along with sore points in my back. It's very difficult for me

to distinguish the die offs because I've had such a lot of trouble altogether.

I take your point about the vitamins etc. I'm sure a lot was destroyed when

I first started taking them, but I can tell they really are now kicking in.

And stuff like the oil of Primrose really worked well in tackling the breast

pain I was experiencing. But it's a shame that all the multivitamin and

mineral liquid potions in the

supermarkets seem to have sugar in them. I think liquid must be much better

to absorb than pills. I take Solgar mostly and I know I really, really need

the iron. The moment I started taking the iron it made such a difference,

which at the time was only a small amount in a supermarket multivitamin brand

people started noticing that I had more colour in my cheeks. However once I'm

off the corticosteroids I'm going to slowly decrease the amounts that I take

and I do occasionally take a total rest from all pills (except unfortunately

from the corticosteroids of course ...). And

noone really notices now about my hair. It's only because know about it that

I see

where there less hair and the growth is patchy and irregular. I have learnt

that

the most important thing to take are the minerals. If the minerals are got

right,

then a lot of other things including vitamins become right.

I'm very interested about the rotating anti fungals. I do take these " Yeast

Raiders " formula and also extra caprylic acid. My digestion which used to

wake me up at night so that I had to walk around is no longer playing up like

it used to and I hardly ever burp now or pass wind like I used to. So

something is working. I do occasionally have an acid taste in my mouth when I

try to cut out the acid forming foods completely for a few days and drink

even more water than I do already. My main problem is that I do tend to

forget and eat too quickly and not chew food properly and break it down

enough in my mouth. Do you mean that I have to buy four different anti fungal

formulas. Gosh does anyone do all this and go out to work? How do you cope?

All this cooking and preparing and rotating ...

Thanks for your support. I appreciate it!

Alice

In a message dated 9/8/01 8:22:55 PM, mogdrmom@... writes:

<< you poor girl! they have really dragged you thru the dirt! I'll have to

reread the begining of your post, I shall remember you in my prayers, Your

going to have to count of God to help you thru this, he is the only " DR " who

knows what is going on. have you read any books or sites on Candida? have you

had any die-offs?

this is my reasoning: others will have theres, stay off the vitamins, Yeast

gets most of the nutrients, it's a waste of money except pro-biotics, you

need 4 anti-fungals at least to rotate every 4 days, i'll wait to hear from

you on these. Good luck dear, my heart goes out to you! Mog >>

[Guest guest]

Hi Liz

Nice to meet you virtually! Have you always had heavy bleeding or is this

something

that happened to you a long time after you started your period?

The problem with me (and also with my mother) is that the moment we began

menstruating the blood flow came out in clots and never seemed to stop. I've

yet to find anybody who really has the same things as my mother and I. People

really don't believe me when I tell them, especially when they associate such

a thing with non ovulation. But there has never been a problem with

fertility. The bleeding just went on and on and there didn't appear to be

cycle even. I'm talking about three or four weeks and then a slight decrease

and then heavy bleeding again for about, say two weeks, and then a slight

decrease but it never ever really stopped properly or only for a few days at

a time. There were times when (and this is at the age of fourteen or fifteen

already and no, it never changed) I was stuck between the toilet and the

shower. I used to wear super tampons and a couple of extra strength pads. I

do know now that anaemia as well causes heavy periods as well as being the

result of heavy periods. But the problem with me was not just that they were

heavy but that they were endless. And once I was prescribed the " pill " things

went even more haywire. I used to dread having to sit in class for the whole

of each lesson because usually at the end I had blood seeping through. As for

exams ...

I think my water retention was always to do with the synthetic steroid

hormones, the estrogen/progestogen and then just the very high doses of

progestogen. I had terific weight swings. Personally I'm not too keen on the

wild yam, but it's all a matter of what suits the individual... I'll have to

investigate what you say about the Black Cohosh. Maybe it's not the right

thing for me.

Anyway the progestogen has stopped my periods completely now. Since coming

off I don't bleed at all. That's since 1997 when I was 35. And I don't really

know when they stopped because I used to get withdrawal bleeds with the

synthetic steroid hormones not real periods. It's definitely been a drug

induced premature menopause, if I really have gone through the menopause.

Do you know what can be done about the low sulfur levels? I am taking kelp

for thyroid and agnus castus for the progesterone. I have heard false unicorn

root is also a good thing to take to balance the hormones but I can only find

it in a tincture which by its nature contains alcohol. I really want to find

it in an extract, if I decide to take it. Do you know anything about it?

Isn't it difficult... what works for one person may not work for another...

Thanks a lot for your answer. I appreciate it.

Regards

Alice

In a message dated 9/8/01 9:30:58 PM, Rabbitbrain@... writes:

<< Hi Alice, I have had heavy bleeding with my period for a looong time.

Also the water build up was getting impossible. I felt like I was

breathing

underwater and was soon gonna collapse. My doctor introduced me

to Natural Progesterone. This is not a synthetic progesterone.

It is made

in a lab with wild yam and is the closest to our own progesterone

chemically

than anything else on earth. What the doctors prescribe to you comes

from

horses and that is why we cannot tolerate it and get sick to death on

it.

I used to not be able to work just because I was sick all week with

my

period and for the first 3 days confined to bed because of the heavy

bleeding.

After using this cream called Pro-Gest I am not cycling normally.

Unbelievable!

Not all progesterone creams are the same, I suggest anyone wanting to try

this,

to try this brand. The information comes from a doctor R. Lee,

M.D.

book entitled " What your doctor may not tell you about Premenopause "

Reading this book is the best way to understanding the benefit of using

this

progesterone than me trying to type everything about it. I forget so

much some

times.

What was very important was for me to weed out EVERYTHING that

increased

my estrogen levels. This came in the form of soy products, soy oils,

many herbs

including black cohosh that you are taking, EEEK! Many others I can't

think of

right now but I have to really dissect my supplements. The

supplements would

add various herbs in it that would boost my estrogen up. So I started

buying

my herbs bulk and capsulating them myself.

Low progesterone causes hair loss, so does low thyroid, so does low sulfur

in

your system. My doctor put me on a low dose of thyroid and I am

feeling more

manageable in my hormonal system. He told me that he went to a

seminar and

it was indicated that people with low hormonal levels, food sensitivities

has also

a sluggish thyroid.

Type Dr. R. Lee M.D. in the search and find his page, it is loaded

with

information that will help you understand how this thing works. I

hope it does

work for you because the last thing I needed was to get on more

prescription

drugs.

LIZ D

--- rabbitbrain@...

>>

[Guest guest]

Hi Alice, I have had heavy bleeding with my period for a looong time.

Also the water build up was getting impossible. I felt like I was

breathing

underwater and was soon gonna collapse. My doctor introduced me

to Natural Progesterone. This is not a synthetic progesterone.

It is made

in a lab with wild yam and is the closest to our own progesterone

chemically

than anything else on earth. What the doctors prescribe to you comes

from

horses and that is why we cannot tolerate it and get sick to death on

it.

I used to not be able to work just because I was sick all week with

my

period and for the first 3 days confined to bed because of the heavy

bleeding.

After using this cream called Pro-Gest I am not cycling normally.

Unbelievable!

Not all progesterone creams are the same, I suggest anyone wanting to try

this,

to try this brand. The information comes from a doctor R. Lee,

M.D.

book entitled " What your doctor may not tell you about Premenopause "

Reading this book is the best way to understanding the benefit of using

this

progesterone than me trying to type everything about it. I forget so

much some

times.

What was very important was for me to weed out EVERYTHING that

increased

my estrogen levels. This came in the form of soy products, soy oils,

many herbs

including black cohosh that you are taking, EEEK! Many others I can't

think of

right now but I have to really dissect my supplements. The

supplements would

add various herbs in it that would boost my estrogen up. So I started

buying

my herbs bulk and capsulating them myself.

Low progesterone causes hair loss, so does low thyroid, so does low sulfur

in

your system. My doctor put me on a low dose of thyroid and I am

feeling more

manageable in my hormonal system. He told me that he went to a

seminar and

it was indicated that people with low hormonal levels, food sensitivities

has also

a sluggish thyroid.

Type Dr. R. Lee M.D. in the search and find his page, it is loaded

with

information that will help you understand how this thing works. I

hope it does

work for you because the last thing I needed was to get on more

prescription

drugs.

LIZ D

--- rabbitbrain@...

bUcKsNdOeS

[Guest guest]

I had to stop taking the Oil of Primrose too. That causes

estrogen to go up.

Liz D

--- rabbitbrain@...

bUcKsNdOeS

[Guest guest]

dumb typing error. " I am now cycling normaly "

LIZ

After using this cream called Pro-Gest I am not cycling

normally.

Unbelievable!

--- rabbitbrain@...

bUcKsNdOeS

[Guest guest]

Do you think the Angus Castus (isn't that chasteberry also known as vitex?)

is helping with your hair loss? I thought it made mine worse..just thought

I would ask you.

moons

---

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[Guest guest]

Hi Alice, I never had non-stop periods. Oh God!

My periods were normal until I had 2 babies in a row and

was put on birth control pills for birth control. It made me

depressed after 6 months of misery I stopped the pill.

My cycle wasn't the same after that and neither was I.

Heavy bleeding, PMS hell.

It sounds kind of early for you to have hit menopause but it

does happen to some women. Lee has the same book with

the same title for women " about Menopause " too. I am wondering

if you had your hormone levels checked at all during this time or

was the doctors just guessing at what should work for you. I

know you can order a saliva test to determine these levels and

they are pretty accurate, you don't need a doctor to do it.

I was going to have that done when things were getting impossible

but my doctor ran some blood tests and the results showed up

there. Blood tests aren't as accurate as saliva testing, so if

this

information is new to you, you may want to look into that area.

A nice sulfur supplement is MSM. I would buy some at your local

store first, and if it works as well as you like it to then order

some

in bulk on the web. It is tons cheaper.

CAUTION: When you find the statement " _____ herb helps to

balance the hormones " beware. I have been having allot of

trouble

trying to find out what hormone it balances. This statement is

too vague.

Most of these herbs boosts estrogen levels and they are pushed

toward women in menopause. Even if you are menopausal you need

progesterone. . I know after I try the herb if it raises

estrogen or not, but I

hate spending the money on a herb that works against my system.

There are allot of these herbs that uses that statement and it

doesn't

define how they work. At least WE know what our body

demands.

Alcohol. I cannot take any of that. I used to be able to drink

1/2

glass of wine. It soon began putting me to sleep. Then it began

making

me feel like I am half dead. It also jacks up your estrogen

level. Any

of the alcohol extracts I take are very few and not on a regular

basis.

One evening we went out with friends to dinner and I had a 1/2 glass

of wine. (Now wine isn't good for candida either) But I began

feeling

ill all over, fatigue and pain in every joint and bone in my body, I

was

38 at the time. I went to the bathroom and rubbed some Pro-gest

on me and in 20 minutes I felt back to normal again. This stuff is a

miracle for me. I don't know what direction your hormonal

therapy

will take, but if it is a possibility to try this product, give it a

shot. It is

not a very strong dose. Since my system needed even more

progesterone

my doctor gave me a tablet to take at night also. In fact I have to

take

progesterone everyday even during the times of my bleeding, morning

and

evening.

I am not familiar with the false unicorn root. I thought I tried them

all. LOL!

Now here is a product that is to help produce all hormones and that

is

women. I have met 2 persons in menopause and swear by this

supplement. It is also to be taken my men and women who have

cancer

as well. I tried this along time ago but it gave me chest

pains. But please

understand this, some other supplements I took produced the very same

symptoms. It was shortly after that my doctor put me on thyroid

medication.

I think now if I take it I wouldn't get chest pains. You need your

thyroid to

work if your body is going to produce or utilize any hormone. I have

been

meaning to try this supplement again but I have been forgetting. I

just would

like to know.

I am no expert on this stuff but just sharing my experience, I hope

it will

help you in some way or another. At least to discard herbs that could

be

working against you. I am not getting anywhere trying to destroy my

fugal

overgrowth though. Today was no help bingeing on chocolate.

LIZ D

--- rabbitbrain@...

bUcKsNdOeS

[Guest guest]

Dear Liz

It's being on synthetic steroid hormones since the age of 14 which has given

me a premature menopause. This is what the medics are trying to cover up.

That's why they changed the time scales in my records after I realised I had

stopped bleeding (I don't know when my periods really stopped because on

these synthetic steroid hormones you get withdrawal bleeds and *not*

periods).

There has been an enormous rise in the number of women experiencing premature

menopause just as there is a rise in numerous different medical conditions

(of course individual women react in different ways), all since the

prescription of these synthetic steroid hormones including the so-called

" contraceptive pill " .

I can compare myself with my mother who had exactly the same menstrual

problems and ended up having a hysteretomy and six pints of blood *before*

the operation. She was told if she didn't have the operation she would only

have a week or so to live. She had been working outside the home up to that

point and was always told the physical problems she suffered from were all

mental .... However she never took any synthetic hormones and was in her

early forties when she had the hysterectomy. She has a lot of the same

symptoms as me but a lot, lot of milder (but not the menstrual flooding, we

were the same on that score), more like some of my symptoms used to be.

However I also have symptoms, vascular symptoms and raised blood pressure,

which only came on after long term use of progestogen (Norethisterone,

Primolut N, a testosterone analogue) at a dose of up to 20mg a day. The

amount of progestogen in the progestogen only " contraceptive " pill is 0.000

something mg. BTW Have you also ever read the leaflet that comes with the

" contraceptive pill " in the box? The leaflet which is produced by the

manufacturer and naturally is the *best* gloss on things. It is a sorry

catalogue of possible symptoms including vascular symptoms. Of course it

doesn't touch on premature menopause but this is well documented by doctors

in other research literature and also in the two books I mentioned for the

" general public " , The Bitter Pill by Dr Ellen Grant and Women and the Crisis

in Sex Hormones by the Seaman husband and wife team. The latter won an award

in the 1970s. The rise in infertility in women has also exploded since the

introduction of the " contraceptive pill " but of course it's been a boom for

specialists in test tube babies. The so-called " Lupus expert " who bounced

into the consulting room like Tigger when I was in my early twenties and

didn't seem concerned about any of my symptoms but was only obsessed by the

fact that I could " have a baby " and was " fertile " was a consultant at the

London teaching hospital which led the way in Britain with the test tube

babies. The whole thing stinks.

Of course the circulation of synthetic steroid hormones in the food chain is

an additional factor and men are being affected as well (also as the children

of women prescribed the " contraceptive pill " ) but not quite, so far, in the

same grotesque and huge way that women have been affected.

As I have previously said, one of the most terrible problems noted by Dr

Ellen Grant is that those women with a weaker constitution react much quicker

to these synthetic steroid hormones and get off them then much quicker. Those

with stronger constitutions stay on them longer, the onset of symptoms is

very insiduous but in the end with much worse results than those who came off

the synthetic hormones early on. Also these women then don't associate their

symptoms with the synthetic hormones or if they do their fears are dismissed

by doctors.

I have now decided to come off Black Cohosh (it's always a bit of a relief to

stop something <grin>) in view of what has been said. But I do know the Agnus

Castus creates an environment conducive to the production of one's own

natural progesterone, at least in my case if I have gone through a premature

menopause, in the adrenal gland which then should, in theory(!!!), balance

out all body's natural hormones because progesterone is the pre-cursor of

natural steroid hormones in the body (male and female) including natural

corticosteroids, testosterone and estrogen. This is why synthetic steroid

hormones which interfere with this natural chain in the body are so terrible

and can cause such a variety of different symptoms including yeast overgrowth.

Personally I'm not keen on wild yam and progesterone therapy as they are

still a form of hormone *replacement* rather than stimulating the natural

progesterone to be produced in the body. However I know it's all very

individual, so if it's right for you, it's right for you.

One thing I would love to get hold of is a toothpaste without sorbitol or

sodium lauryl sulphate. I guess I could brush my teeth with bicarbonate of

soda just but --- ugh, enough said!

Re MSM. I might try it, but it seems very bound up with arthritic like

symptoms. One thing that I used to notice when I used to attend " Lupus " units

that most other people seemed to have kidney and arthritic symptoms which I

never had. I wish the alarm bells had started ringing in my head then and I

had stuck to my original instinct that there was anaemia in the family (on

the male and female side) and that the fungal infections I had developed

after taking the synthetic steroid hormones had contributed to development of

constant fevers, itchings, lethargy, aches and pains etc. But I was so

trusting then still and it never crossed my mind that docs would go that far.

However I was always a little suspicious about this " Lupus expert " who

encouraged me not to stop the " contraceptive pill " . He was short and wore

what looked like a nylon blond wig and used to surround himself with a little

group of Lupus patient female groupies -- it was a bit like a celebrity

syndrome! -- and I used to joke to people about his " hareem " . It's this kind

of groupie attitude I find pervades the Lupus group in Britain as well.

I have to say that personally I don't miss chocolate. What I really, really

miss at the moment is fruit. I always used to eat loads of apples. It's

always been the same in my family, we've always been apple fanatics. It's a

family joke. We used to buy box loads of apples at a time from market

stalls... We've just picked the crop of lovely English apples from our

garden, but of course I can't touch them at the moment. Looking back now I

think the fresh fruit and veg I've always eaten has probably saved my life

with all the drugs I've been stuffed with. When I binge, I tend to eat this

great yeast free rye bread I've found, a Russian bread by a firm called

Village Bakery. I spread it with Tahini and mashed sweet potato and pressed

cucumber. It's really delicious. Another scrumptious thing I've found is a

Greek Sheep's Milk natural yoghurt, it's really gorgeous, like creme fresh or

something. Sometimes I just have lightly cooked veg and a big dollop of the

yoghurt on it all. I also sometimes sin and mix starch and protein by having

it on the rye bread or on rye crackers.

I don't drink wine at all but frankly I don't care. Most of the wine in Englan

d to me tastes just like vinegar. I did go to a very upmarket banquet lately

at an exclusive hotel (yes, I did have an evening's lapse because of it!) and

had one sip of the wine. It was disgusting. I don't how people could drink

it. Perhaps it's because when I was younger I lived in France where one could

really distinguish between the cheaper " vin ordinaire " and the more expensive

wine -- at least at that time. Perhaps it's even the same there now with all

the mass production for the world market that goes on. Here it's just like

people will drink anything and think it's ok and the more expensive wine

doesn't seem to be much better. Goodness knows what they put in it all now.

When you think of the amounts of wine that are produced ... well, I shudder

to think. It's a bit the same with chocolate. There I hope that's put you off

and stopped you binging...<vbg> On that cheery note, I'll sign off another

marathon posting,

Alice

In a message dated 9/9/01 1:26:23 AM, Rabbitbrain@... writes:

<< Hi Alice, I never had non-stop periods. Oh God!

My periods were normal until I had 2 babies in a row and

was put on birth control pills for birth control. It made me

depressed after 6 months of misery I stopped the pill.

My cycle wasn't the same after that and neither was I.

Heavy bleeding, PMS hell.

It sounds kind of early for you to have hit menopause but it

does happen to some women. Lee has the same book with

the same title for women " about Menopause " too. I am wondering

if you had your hormone levels checked at all during this time or

was the doctors just guessing at what should work for you. I

know you can order a saliva test to determine these levels and

they are pretty accurate, you don't need a doctor to do it.

I was going to have that done when things were getting impossible

but my doctor ran some blood tests and the results showed up

there. Blood tests aren't as accurate as saliva testing, so if

this

information is new to you, you may want to look into that area.

A nice sulfur supplement is MSM. I would buy some at your local

store first, and if it works as well as you like it to then order

some

in bulk on the web. It is tons cheaper.

CAUTION: When you find the statement " _____ herb helps to

balance the hormones " beware. I have been having allot of

trouble

trying to find out what hormone it balances. This statement is

too vague.

Most of these herbs boosts estrogen levels and they are pushed

toward women in menopause. Even if you are menopausal you need

progesterone. . I know after I try the herb if it raises

estrogen or not, but I

hate spending the money on a herb that works against my system.

There are allot of these herbs that uses that statement and it

doesn't

define how they work. At least WE know what our body

demands.

Alcohol. I cannot take any of that. I used to be able to drink

1/2

glass of wine. It soon began putting me to sleep. Then it began

making

me feel like I am half dead. It also jacks up your estrogen

level. Any

of the alcohol extracts I take are very few and not on a regular

basis.

One evening we went out with friends to dinner and I had a 1/2 glass

of wine. (Now wine isn't good for candida either) But I began

feeling

ill all over, fatigue and pain in every joint and bone in my body, I

was

38 at the time. I went to the bathroom and rubbed some Pro-gest

on me and in 20 minutes I felt back to normal again. This stuff is a

miracle for me. I don't know what direction your hormonal

therapy

will take, but if it is a possibility to try this product, give it a

shot. It is

not a very strong dose. Since my system needed even more

progesterone

my doctor gave me a tablet to take at night also. In fact I have to

take

progesterone everyday even during the times of my bleeding, morning

and

evening.

I am not familiar with the false unicorn root. I thought I tried them

all. LOL!

Now here is a product that is to help produce all hormones and that

is

women. I have met 2 persons in menopause and swear by this

supplement. It is also to be taken my men and women who have

cancer

as well. I tried this along time ago but it gave me chest

pains. But please

understand this, some other supplements I took produced the very same

symptoms. It was shortly after that my doctor put me on thyroid

medication.

I think now if I take it I wouldn't get chest pains. You need your

thyroid to

work if your body is going to produce or utilize any hormone. I have

been

meaning to try this supplement again but I have been forgetting. I

just would

like to know.

I am no expert on this stuff but just sharing my experience, I hope

it will

help you in some way or another. At least to discard herbs that could

be

working against you. I am not getting anywhere trying to destroy my

fugal

overgrowth though. Today was no help bingeing on chocolate.

LIZ D

>>

[Guest guest]

It's really difficult for me to tell, but it certainly hasn't done me any

harm and the

bald patch over my crown is definitely filling up. Of course I am taking kelp

and, especially, iron as well, also the vitamin B's. I do buy an expensive

brand of Agnus Castus by mail order, as I researched it all a little bit and

discovered that the cheaper brands available in supermarkets etc are not

considered to be very good. There are different grades of herbs. Of course

even with the expensive brands it's all done on trust, but I take a very

well-known British brand which is supposed to be as good as Solgar. What type

of hair loss do you have?

What seems to have happened to me is that I've had gradual hair thinning

because of being on high doses of progestogen, a testosterone analogue, for

many years and then in February, in the area above the palate where I got the

ulcerations in my mouth, I got a real moulting of hair. This moulting slowed

down when I started taking a multinutrient but really stopped when I started

taking the iron. The moulting wasn't confined to just my head but to all over

my body and my eyelashes as well. It all seems to have stopped now -- touch

wood and I've had quite a good regrowth on my head. Only I know now that I

have gaps and I guess if somebody was in a helicopter hovering over my head

they could see the gaps a bit but on the whole it's not noticeable. Of course

the fact that I may have gone through a premature menopause induced by the

progestogen doesn't help. Of course the docs did absolutely nothing for me

apart from prescribing corticosteroids, prednisolone which I'm nearly off now

(just four more days!). I was dreading whether once I was down on the

corticosteroids my hair loss would start off again, but that doesn't seem to

have happened (touch wood again). I wish I'd never started on the damn things

but had realised about the multiple vitamin and mineral deficiencies,

especially the iron. But I have to admit I was in a bit of a blind panic

after my hair fell out ... and it's only when the lying rheumatologist (and

gynaecologist) said to me that I definitely didn't need extra vitamins and

minerals and iron that I began to get suspicious and began to investigate.

BTW be careful if your doc says you don't lack iron. There are two stores of

iron in the body and when the body runs low one store " borrows " from the

other (the same thing actually happens with a lack of progesterone in the

body when the ovaries borrow from the adrenal glands and vice versa). The

docs don't usually bother to tell you the results of one of the stores --

the ferritin level which is the important one.

Anyway, that's my experience.

Alice

In a message dated 9/9/01 12:29:05 AM, 2moons@... writes:

<< Do you think the Angus Castus (isn't that chasteberry also known as vitex?)

is helping with your hair loss? I thought it made mine worse..just thought

I would ask you.

moons

>>

[Guest guest]

<< >The problem with me (and also with my mother) is that the moment we began

>menstruating the blood flow came out in clots and never seemed to stop.

Did you have a lot of pain associated with your cycle?

I have something called endometriosis>>

No, I had weakness, obviously, because of the blood loss, aches and pains

generally and a feeling of congestions as the blood used to come out in huge

clots but no period pains as such. I think of it now as like haemophilia,

except confined to the periods. I never had any trouble with wound healing.

They did test me for endometriosis and no I had nothing structurally wrong. I

found that all docs, gynae's included, had a distaste for my condition and

used to become hysterical if I said that my mother had the same thing.

There's something about it they just hate. They couldn't fault us on diet, we

were slim, so of course it was the " all in the mind " thing, at least until

mother had the six pints of blood and the hysterectomy. Then it became that

mother was " influencing " me. In the end I just used to say, " If it was all in

the mind and my brain could control it, I wouldn't have periods at all!!! " .

Then they would look embarassed and start shuffling their papers before

saying I had to grin and bear it or something like that. I don't what it's

like now, but at that time, any menstrual problems seemed to be regarded as a

mental abberation. In fact my mother did have a great aunt whom she never

knew who died in a mental home in her early forties at about the same age as

when my mother had the six pints of blood and the hysterectomy. Oh yes and

there was the other favourite, some elderly male doc with the rumpled suit

and stains on his tie, who said brightly, " Oh you should have a baby " . In

fact my mother had two, the bleeding did stop for the pregnancies but came

back again with a vengeance. So she ended up with the non stop flow and two

children, one of whom turned out to have the same thing. So that really was

great advice wasn't it?

Were the symptoms of your endometriosis right from when you started your

periods or did they come on, say, after taking birth control pills or any

other synthetic steroid hormones?

My periods were always like this. That's another thing the docs found it

impossible to come to terms with. But I do know now that with anaemia it's a

vicious circle, If you lack iron you have increased blood flow, if you have

increased blood flow you grow more anaemic. I must have had a cycle somewhere

because I did ovulate and obviously my mother had children so she was the

same. I don't know whether my condition could have been adjusted by anything

except a hysterectomy. But we definitely also had other conditions which, now

I realise, were anaemia and yeast related. Itching in the ears, patches of

itchy skin, bloated stomach, aches and pains including specific sore points,

cold hands and feet. Probably more which I forget now. But my mother never

had the extremes then I developed after years of taking synthetic steroid

hormones and I then got other symptoms which my mother never had: swollen

legs and ankles, red spots on my hands, feet and legs, totally blue hands and

feet, raised blood pressure and now premature menopause.

Regards

Alice

In a message dated 9/10/01 4:25:53 PM, clicklbd@... writes:

<<, as did my mother and my grandmother,

and we all had similar symptoms to what you are describing (along with

severe pain.)

In 1999 I had a 12 cm cyst removed along with my left ovary due to the

endometriosis.

Patti >>

[Guest guest]

>The problem with me (and also with my mother) is that the moment we began

>menstruating the blood flow came out in clots and never seemed to stop.

Did you have a lot of pain associated with your cycle?

I have something called endometriosis, as did my mother and my grandmother,

and we all had similar symptoms to what you are describing (along with

severe pain.)

In 1999 I had a 12 cm cyst removed along with my left ovary due to the

endometriosis.

Patti

_________________________________________________________________

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 9/15/01 9:27:51 PM, 2moons@... writes:

<< If you put the tincture in hot water...the alcohol will evaporate.

I took evening primrose and that happened to me. Clots and heavy blood. It

escalated to hemorraging basically. This time frame was from January to

March. Finally they took me in to do a D & C and then a scope to see what

was going on. After that D & C I went back to normal. Normal for me is

violent cramps, migraines and medium flow. I won't take the primrose now.

moons

>>

I have heard about putting tincture in hot water -- do you mean just hot or

boiling

water?

Altho' obviously my problems were different from yours in that I always had

this sort

of " haemorrhaging " , I was put on Oil of Primrose some years ago and it did

absolutely

nothing for me. I was also put on Danazol and ended up with swollen ankles,

something

I'd never had before in my life and it didn't affect the menstruation in any

way.

However I have used Oil of Primrose lately for breast pain which probably c

ame on after my *real*

menstruation stopped (I still don't know when my natural periods stopped

because I was

on high doses of progestogen -- 15mg of norethisterone -- for so long and

still had

artificial withdrawal bleeds). This time the Oil of Primrose did work for the

breast pain

but I have stopped it now because of its alleged estrogenic qualities. I've

never had

menstrual cramps as such and only developed headaches after many years on

progestogen.

I think I only had a full blown migraine once when I remember waking up in

the middle

of the night with my eyes hurting and flashing lights and a pain in my head.

That was, I

think, a few months before I was an emergency admission to hospital with

swollen legs

and ankles, in short a thrombosis caused by the progestogen.

I have heard that excess estrogen causes migraines and also use of the

so-called contraceptive pill also causes

migraines, according to Dr Ellen Grant. I've just got hold of Dr

Crook's book

on Yeast and he mentions the book I have mentioned previously called " The

Bitter Pill " .

Menstrual problems are so individual but certainly your complaints are far

more common than mine and

covered in a number of Yeast books. I haven't got them to hand at the moment,

but if you want I can

look them up for you.

Alice

[Guest guest]

If you put the tincture in hot water...the alcohol will evaporate.

I took evening primrose and that happened to me. Clots and heavy blood. It

escalated to hemorraging basically. This time frame was from January to

March. Finally they took me in to do a D & C and then a scope to see what

was going on. After that D & C I went back to normal. Normal for me is

violent cramps, migraines and medium flow. I won't take the primrose now.

moons

---

Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Version: 6.0.277 / Virus Database: 146 - Release Date: 9/6/2001

[Guest guest]

, If your body was in short supply of estrogen then

you were experiencing Progesterone Dominance. Of

course it would work for the right conditions. Problem

is that women complaints aren't understood and pushed

off as " female " with nothing done for it. And it is really

great that all you needed to do is take this oil for a limited

time. The body can be fantastic on keeping things in balance

once it absorbs the properties it needs to function.

Even though I have estrogen dominance there was 3 days out

of the month where I suspected that I was short on estrogen.

This was before I knew about estrogen dominance.

I went to one doctor after another trying to get them to fix it

and the laughed and brushed it off. I never got help from them.

Our hormones shift throughout the month in phases of having our

progesterone higher some weeks followed by estrogen becoming

higher at the latter weeks to bring on a bleed. But right after

my

period ended I would feel perfect for 1-3 days, then followed

by a week of feeling jittery. This went on for years to the point

that my hands shook. I remember one day my shaking was so

bad that I couldn't hold much food on a fork without it falling off

onto my plate. I really remember this day when I said " this is

the

last straw, something has to be done. " I was eating at a food

court

in the mall with a plastic fork, having Chinese rice. I couldn't

get

enough food in my mouth and I put my fork down numerous times

out of disgust. I noticed that others around me noticed the

situation

also because I got steady looks from everyone. Some people

nudging their friends and point toward me to look. I often

thought

I was developing Parkinson disease because it was so bad. But

without a doubt this problem showed up in the path of my cycling.

I marked this on a calendar each

month and it showed up like clock work. I started looking for

the cause of my symptoms and found out that when women go

though menopause they often have jittery feelings that is constantly

there and it was a sign of low estrogen.

I did much looking on how I could put estrogen in my body at this

time and found out that licorice root was a plant estrogen. Not a

real estrogen, a " phytoestrogen " . When the body digests these

plants

it view and reacts to the herb and utilizes it as an estrogen. This

is

how you can substitute estrogen and progesterone in your body

naturally, for those who don't know this already.

Well surprising to say that when I took this herb for 1 week time

all my crazy symptoms went away. I repeated this herb for that

one week for the passing four months that my symptoms showed

up. And do you know what? By month number five I noticed

I

didn't suffer from those crazy symptoms again. My body began

to function normally on its own. So I am pleased that you got a

permanent result from the short term use of oil of primrose.

Women must know that it is possible that the body can be put

in balance and it doesn't necessarily mean that you are bound to

taking some of these herbs forever. I have read in most of my

herb books that whatever herbs you take for an extended period

of time you should take a break from taking them. This helps

the

body from becoming resistant to it as well as taking note of the

possibility the the herb created the permanent balance that the body

needs.

LIZ D

Re: New member

introduction

Sorry to hear you guys had such a bad time with

primrose oil! It was a Godsend for me -- more for

*pre*menstrual symptoms, such as breast pain and mood

swings (that's putting it mildly). Fortunately, my

body reset itself pretty quickly; I only had to use

primrose occasionally, for a year or two. I'd just

hate to see somebody who hasn't tried it get scared

off -- it does work for a few of us nuts! LOL

--- rabbitbrain@...

bUcKsNdOeS

[Guest guest]

Hi Debbie,<br>Well, starting at .25 is a very low

dose, so it is not a great surprise that it did not

affect the TSH as much as your Doc should think. I have

read it is safer to sart at lower doses

though.<br><br>Look for me on you Chronic Pan club. I got some pains

going on! <br><br>Bev

[Guest guest]

Hi

Welcome to the group.

Robin

[Guest guest]

jennifer,

You found the right place. I was sick for about 5 yrs also till I diagnosed

myself and sure enough I see a LLMD in MO.

[ ] New member introduction

> Hi everyone,

>

> I just joined and thought I should introduce myself. My name is

> , I'm 26, and I've just been diagnosed with Lyme Disease. I

> live in Texas with my husband of 5 years, , and our three cats.

>

> My health problems began 5 years ago in June 1998. About two weeks

> before my wedding day, I suddenly became very ill with a high fever,

> crushing fatigue, swollen glands, etc. My doctor at the time tested

> me for a lot of things, including mono, but the tests came back

> negative. I was so sick that we almost thought we'd have to postpone

> the wedding, but I managed to recover enough that our plans went on as

> scheduled. I was never 100% after that illness though and struggled

> with fatigue and muscle pains, among other things. I still had 3

> semesters left in college, which I managed to complete, though I had

> to ration my energy very carefully and found that I had more trouble

> concentrating on my studies. When I told my doctor what was going on

> in the summer of 1999, he diagnosed me with CFIDS and fibromyalgia.

>

> After I graduated in December '99, I figured that a break from school

> and a little exercise would get me back into shape. Instead, I

> gradually got worse. My doctor didn't offer much in the way of help,

> saying that I should just rest, exericse, and eat well, and I might

> get better in 5-10 years. (!!!) At first I listened to him and just

> tried to live with it, but as I kept getting worse and found that I

> could function less and less, I decided to see a new doctor.

>

> When I went to see my current doctor last May, she tested me and found

> that I had hormonal imbalances, an active EBV infection, and heavy

> metal toxicity. She has treated me with chelation and hormones, but

> I've only improved a little. I started doing a lot of research and

> began to suspect that I might have Lyme Disease. One of the main

> reasons I suspected this is because I visited a park just a week

> before I originally got sick, and walked around in some tall grass

> beside a river in an area where deer and other animals live. I had

> never been tested for Lyme before because I never had an EM rash that

> anyone could see, so I insisted on getting tested when I saw my doctor

> a couple of months ago. Because I had read that not all labs are

> equally good at testing for Lyme, I ordered some test kits from

> IGeneX. My IgM Western Blot came back with several equivocals and no

> positives, but I have enough IgG bands to be considered positive.

> Today I found out that two of my three urine samples for IGeneX's Dot

> Blot Assay/PCR antigen capture test have also come up positive.

>

> On July 31st I have an appointment to see a doctor in my area who has

> been recommeded to me by several people as a good Lyme-literate

> doctor. It will be interesting to see what kind of treatment he wants

> to start me on. I know from my reading that LD isn't fun to deal with,

> but at this point I actually consider my positive diagnosis good news.

> CFIDS is such a nebulous diagnosis, and a very hard illness to treat,

> but it seems that more is known about LD. I'm very, very hopeful

> that, after all this time, I may finally be able to get some

> treatments that could help me get beyond this fatigue and live a

> better life. :-)

>

> I'm still learning about Lyme and would be interested in hearing about

> other people's experiences. At this point I'm mostly just hoping to

> make some new friends who understand what I've been going through and

> can offer encouragement and support as I see a new doctor and begin

> treatment. I'm looking forward to meeting you and hope to hear from

> you soon!

>

> Smiles,

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

/y-

I have ALOT of lymie clients in Texas!!!!!

If you want, I could suggest to them if you want to start a Texas LD support

group.

I have clients as far as Hawaii, quite a few in England, Australia, Germany

and even one in Alaska!!!

Lyme is ALL over the world.

Sue Massie, CNHP

Nature's Garden of Health

732 933-4011

[Guest guest]

Welcome !

I have a college friend from Paoloa Kansas named but I don't think

you are her.

Anyway--I'm glad you found us. This is a wonderfully supportive and loving

group. IU've been here.. hmmm .. 5 years maybe? I forget.. and in all that

time I do not remember one single flame war or harsh words. Our moderators

are dedicated and loyal and they kee things on an even keel!! Bless them!!

I have not had huge huge problems with my reiter's. I was diagnosed 19

years ago at age 32. Started with the red eye stuff, bladder stuff, and

ainful joints..I was dxed about three months later. The initial dr told me

I was a hyochonriac...then I went to a GP who figured it out almost

immediately.

My path has just gone slowly and steadily downward.. well not that

steadily I guess... just lately in the past coule of years more steadily I

guess. I am on remicade and do have some pain in my lower back. My dr told

me if I want pain meds though he will want me to go to a pain dr. cus that

is not his forte. (this is my rheumy)

I do know that my ability to bend is lessening. I can't ick things u like

I used to. The dr insists I'm not AS or into rheumatoid arthritis though

he did say well i don't think you need knee relacement's yet.. I was

like.. I didn't even know that was a consideration at this point!!!!

Anyway---small symptoms or big you are so welcome here, .

BIG HUGS

Liz

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" Happiness comes of the capacity to feel deeply, to enjoy simply, to think

freely, to risk life, and to be needed. " **Storm on**

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EMAIL: juliette@... **ICQ 49746198** MSN-LizKP1952@...

PERSONAL HOMEPAGE PAGE http://members.tripod.com/~LizK

ADDult ADD GROUP PAGE: http://members.tripod.com/~LizK/addult.htm

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