Guest guest Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 the only things other than Lyme that i am aware of that cause a low CD-57 is mycoplasma infection and HIV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 > > the only things other than Lyme that i am aware of that cause a low CD-57 is mycoplasma infection and HIV. no, there are probably many others, e.g. certain streptococcus infections are also suspected of lowering CD57. I think there is a huge amount of research missing here, most infections simply have never been check regarding CD57 influence. So it is NOT a good parameter for judging Borrelia infection. It just gives some general idea about parts of the immune system, and even that can be doubted (several articles show ZERO correlation between chronic illness, e.g. chronic lyme, and CD57 values). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 > > My LLMD said CD57 Test came back with an absolute CD57# of 117. He said that this shows that it may not be " Chronic Lyme " which would be 60 or lower..although the healthy number is 200. Does this mean that it may not be lyme...my Igenex test is due back anyday..and although my symptoms have improved since december i still have cog issues/numbness in my hands and body parts at night, heart pains, tinnitus, dry mouth, floaters, inflammed joints, cant stay in public to long without feeling " overstimulated " ....muscle twitching and tightness has stopped in legs since buhner protocol and abx...anyone suggestions? He also said that my panel (thyroid, adrenals, hormones, blood, liver,) all look great...I do eat very healthy and I am an herbalist so I eat alot of herbs and have drank infusions for years...before this episode I had never been sick and immune system was excellent....??? confused. > IMHO it is totally impossible to diagnose (chronic) lyme based on CD57. I would rather trust the IgeneX test, together with the symptoms it is a better indicator. It is rather common that people still have symptoms after treatment if they were ill for a long time. And those symptoms can remain for months or even years, especially neuro lyme issues. If the remaining symptoms are due to persistent infection (ineffective treatment), herx reactions/toxins from dead bacteria or other causes (e.g. 'auto-immune'disease' or some as of yet unrecognised infection) is a subject of heated debate. My own experience is that all the current tests say very little, especially with chronic lyme. In the two years after infection I had severe symptoms but two negative tests. At two years I was terribly ill and finally had an unequivocally positive Western Blot, which was officially negative again after one year of ABX treatment and one year of Buhner (only IgM and IgG p41 bands). But at that time spirochetes were still visible in my blood, so the official conclusion of the test was obviously wrong. On the other side, I know examples of people who tested positive and who had zero symptoms. All my other blood tests (I have had many over the years) were usually excellent, even when I was feeling terribly ill. Apparently we don't know yet what to look for ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 I just heard that the newly found XMRV virus that is associated with chronic fatigue syndrome can also affect the CD57. My doctor still uses the CD57, but personally I resist it partly because it is private pay and because I've heard so much about how unreliable it is in regard to lyme. jo > > the only things other than Lyme that i am aware of that cause a low CD-57 is mycoplasma infection and HIV. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 Hi, The CD57 test from my knowledge is reliable I go to a dr that helped to create it. HIV is a CD56 I don't know what the mycoplasma is. The private payer thing, it is done through lab corp in the states and gamma dynacare in canada, I know the ELISA test in Canada is up to 95% false negative and that is what they have been testing people with for too long. One must insist on the CD57 and a western blot both covered by OHIP but interestingly the most inaccurate test here in CAnada goes through public health. today one person in Toronto got hep A and our government is calling on people to hurry up and get their vaccine-right...Lyme no mention. Any info on the CD57 can be helpful mine was higher than all others at our support group .026 and I just began treatment so look forward to coming up. Just got the Buhner book and began herbs, was on living foods for 3 years and orthomolecur. All Healing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 I understand your confusion. I was told I had Lyme, but my CD 57 was 200, better than my son, who had Lyme 10 years ago and he is now well. I am very sick with all these horrible symptoms you mentioned. I do have Bartonella and my recent very sharp doctor said that I may have a false positive Lyme test, because of my Bartonella being so high on the Western Blot, which is not that reliable and the Western Blot will rarely show any Bartonella. That made more sense to me, but I hope I am not just doing some wishful thinking here. Maybe we will never really know? However, I am having more tests and cultures done and we shall see. I was treated for Lyme for 6 months with abx's and I have been on the Buhner protocol for Lyme. I never herxed on the herbs, only on certain abx's like Doxy and not the B-cillin either. The Doxy works on Bartonella and Lyme. I was bitten by a cat 10 years ago, but before that I was always healthy and strong. Maybe my new doctor is right. Check for co-infections. Maud On Jan 25, 2011, at 5:11 PM, herbsilly wrote: > My LLMD said CD57 Test came back with an absolute CD57# of 117. He said that this shows that it may not be " Chronic Lyme " which would be 60 or lower..although the healthy number is 200. Does this mean that it may not be lyme...my Igenex test is due back anyday..and although my symptoms have improved since december i still have cog issues/numbness in my hands and body parts at night, heart pains, tinnitus, dry mouth, floaters, inflammed joints, cant stay in public to long without feeling " overstimulated " ....muscle twitching and tightness has stopped in legs since buhner protocol and abx...anyone suggestions? He also said that my panel (thyroid, adrenals, hormones, blood, liver,) all look great...I do eat very healthy and I am an herbalist so I eat alot of herbs and have drank infusions for years...before this episode I had never been sick and immune system was excellent....??? confused. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 > > I may have a false positive Lyme test, because of my Bartonella being so high on the Western Blot, which is not that reliable and the Western Blot will rarely show any Bartonella. ?? I have never heard of a Western Blot for Bartonella. I think you have misunderstood what the doc said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2011 Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 > > Hi, > The CD57 test from my knowledge is reliable I go to a dr that helped to create it. No it isn't, just check the literature on PubMed. CD57 is NOT!!! specific for Borrelia infection, and there are many doubts about even the correlation between immune disfunction (like in chronic lyme) and low CD57. The only articles supporting CD57 as a Lyme test are those from Stricker c.s., no one else has been able to confirm his findings and several articles have totally disproved the concept. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2011 Report Share Posted January 28, 2011 No, I did not misunderstand what he said. He said the Western Blot will rarely detect Bartonella, but in my case it did and it was high, which could have skewed the Lyme test and made it a false positive, but of course all this can't be proved. But my CD 57 was 200, which is normal and I never Herxed on any of the Buhner herbs for Lyme or the B-cillin, only on the Doxycycline, which also works for the Bartonella. I just hope this is true and maybe I don't have lyme after all, just Bartonella. I was bitten by a cat 10 years ago and I have been sick since then. maud On Jan 27, 2011, at 12:25 PM, knot_weed wrote: > > > > > > > I may have a false positive Lyme test, because of my Bartonella being so high on the Western Blot, which is not that reliable and the Western Blot will rarely show any Bartonella. > > ?? I have never heard of a Western Blot for Bartonella. I think you have misunderstood what the doc said. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2011 Report Share Posted January 28, 2011 > > No, I did not misunderstand what he said. He said the Western Blot will rarely detect Bartonella, but in my case it did and it was high, which could have skewed the Lyme test and made it a false positive, but of course all this can't be proved. really, I have NEVER read anything like that and cannot imagine how it would be possible to occur. I have read hundreds of scientific articles about all the different lyme tests, and never come across anything like that. A Lyme (Borrelia) Western Blot test does NOT detect Bartonella, no way! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2011 Report Share Posted January 28, 2011 I don't have the test in front of me as I must have left it at the doctor's office, so I can't debate this with you. I just know what the doctor said. On Jan 28, 2011, at 2:59 PM, knot_weed wrote: > > > > > > > No, I did not misunderstand what he said. He said the Western Blot will rarely detect Bartonella, but in my case it did and it was high, which could have skewed the Lyme test and made it a false positive, but of course all this can't be proved. > > really, I have NEVER read anything like that and cannot imagine how it would be possible to occur. I have read hundreds of scientific articles about all the different lyme tests, and never come across anything like that. > > A Lyme (Borrelia) Western Blot test does NOT detect Bartonella, no way! > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2011 Report Share Posted January 28, 2011 Google Western Blot and Bartonella and you will find your answer. You can test for Bartonella with a Western Blot test. Maud On Jan 28, 2011, at 2:59 PM, knot_weed wrote: > > > > > > > No, I did not misunderstand what he said. He said the Western Blot will rarely detect Bartonella, but in my case it did and it was high, which could have skewed the Lyme test and made it a false positive, but of course all this can't be proved. > > really, I have NEVER read anything like that and cannot imagine how it would be possible to occur. I have read hundreds of scientific articles about all the different lyme tests, and never come across anything like that. > > A Lyme (Borrelia) Western Blot test does NOT detect Bartonella, no way! > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2011 Report Share Posted January 28, 2011 Not that this should be a contest or debate, but...my money is on Knot Weed, doctor or no doctor. ________________________________ From: Maud Steinberg <maudsteinberg@...> Sent: Fri, January 28, 2011 1:16:11 PM Subject: Re: [ ] Re: CD57 Test ??? I don't have the test in front of me as I must have left it at the doctor's office, so I can't debate this with you. I just know what the doctor said. On Jan 28, 2011, at 2:59 PM, knot_weed wrote: > > > > > > > No, I did not misunderstand what he said. He said the Western Blot will >rarely detect Bartonella, but in my case it did and it was high, which could >have skewed the Lyme test and made it a false positive, but of course all this >can't be proved. > > > really, I have NEVER read anything like that and cannot imagine how it would be >possible to occur. I have read hundreds of scientific articles about all the >different lyme tests, and never come across anything like that. > > A Lyme (Borrelia) Western Blot test does NOT detect Bartonella, no way! > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2011 Report Share Posted January 28, 2011 Well, the doctor that told me this is the top notch doctor/scientist in this country doing research in Bartonella. Just google Western Blot and Bartonella and the answer is there. No debate needed. On Jan 28, 2011, at 10:03 PM, Cook wrote: > Not that this should be a contest or debate, but...my money is on Knot Weed, > doctor or no doctor. > > ________________________________ > From: Maud Steinberg <maudsteinberg@...> > > Sent: Fri, January 28, 2011 1:16:11 PM > Subject: Re: [ ] Re: CD57 Test ??? > > I don't have the test in front of me as I must have left it at the doctor's > office, so I can't debate this with you. I just know what the doctor said. > On Jan 28, 2011, at 2:59 PM, knot_weed wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, I did not misunderstand what he said. He said the Western Blot will > >rarely detect Bartonella, but in my case it did and it was high, which could > >have skewed the Lyme test and made it a false positive, but of course all this > >can't be proved. > > > > > > really, I have NEVER read anything like that and cannot imagine how it would be > >possible to occur. I have read hundreds of scientific articles about all the > >different lyme tests, and never come across anything like that. > > > > A Lyme (Borrelia) Western Blot test does NOT detect Bartonella, no way! > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2011 Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 I did a quick search and could not readily find a site with any answers one way or another. Can you provide a link? > > Well, the doctor that told me this is the top notch doctor/scientist in this country doing research in Bartonella. Just google Western Blot and Bartonella and the answer is there. No debate needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2011 Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 > > Google Western Blot and Bartonella and you will find your answer. You can test for Bartonella with a Western Blot test. Maud But you can NOT test for Bartonella with a LYME (Borrelia) Western Blot! Western Blot is just the general technology, there are different versions for different bugs. There is NO WAY a Borrelia Western Blot will detect Bartonella, or the other way round. Just not possible. At most a Borrelia Western Blot might show a few generic bands (like p41) due to an infection with a closely related organism like Treponema. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2011 Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 It must feel nice to be so sure of yourself all the time. I have the test to prove that you are wrong. Maud On Jan 29, 2011, at 12:01 PM, knot_weed wrote: > > > > > > > Google Western Blot and Bartonella and you will find your answer. You can test for Bartonella with a Western Blot test. Maud > > But you can NOT test for Bartonella with a LYME (Borrelia) Western Blot! > > Western Blot is just the general technology, there are different versions for different bugs. There is NO WAY a Borrelia Western Blot will detect Bartonella, or the other way round. Just not possible. > > At most a Borrelia Western Blot might show a few generic bands (like p41) due to an infection with a closely related organism like Treponema. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2011 Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 I just googled Western Blot and Bartonella. A westerm Blot is used to detect antibodies for Lyme and Bartonella as was done in my case. I have it on paper. It is not very accurate, of course, but I was positive for both. Since I was so highly positive for Bartonella, according to the doctor, it could have skewed the results for the Lyme. It is an interesting thought, that's all. I am having cultures done now and another antibody test for lyme, plus a new CD57. Bottom line is that a Western Blot can be used to detect antibodies for Bartonella and I guess that is the debate the knotweed started and now it needs to stop as it is a waste of my time. Maud On Jan 29, 2011, at 10:57 AM, Deb57 wrote: > I did a quick search and could not readily find a site with any answers one way or another. Can you provide a link? > > > > > > Well, the doctor that told me this is the top notch doctor/scientist in this country doing research in Bartonella. Just google Western Blot and Bartonella and the answer is there. No debate needed. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2011 Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 I didn't say it was a BORRELIA Western Blot , but a Western Blot that detected the Bartonella. On Jan 29, 2011, at 12:01 PM, knot_weed wrote: > > > > > > > Google Western Blot and Bartonella and you will find your answer. You can test for Bartonella with a Western Blot test. Maud > > But you can NOT test for Bartonella with a LYME (Borrelia) Western Blot! > > Western Blot is just the general technology, there are different versions for different bugs. There is NO WAY a Borrelia Western Blot will detect Bartonella, or the other way round. Just not possible. > > At most a Borrelia Western Blot might show a few generic bands (like p41) due to an infection with a closely related organism like Treponema. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 > > I didn't say it was a BORRELIA Western Blot , but a Western Blot that detected the Bartonella. you said " I may have a false positive Lyme test, because of my Bartonella being so high on the Western Blot, " Either you made a very confusing statement here or you don't have a clue what you are talking about. Just for the record, I'm a biochemist and have plenty of experience with this technology. YES, you can have a Western Blot for Bartonella (theoretically, I have never seen one though here in Europe; they only use and PCR for Bart). But that is NOT a Lyme Western Blot, it would be an entirely different test. And if you are suggesting that a Western Blot tests for both Borrelia and Bartonella at the same time, well ... that would be a patently stupid test, with the IDSA guys grinning from ear to ear because every outcome could be called a false positive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 For your information the statement was made by my doctor and it was an educated guess on his part and I found it an interesting point and therefore I mentioned it to this group. There are no certainties when it comes to Lyme. Because you are a biochemist you know more than a the top Bartonella researcher in the States ? I guess the doctors in this country are stupid then since I had a Western Blot for Lyme and Bartonella done. I find it interesting that few people are voicing opinions on this site anymore and I should have known that I would get blasted for daring to open my mouth. It was just a doctor's opinion!!!!! Get it???? On Jan 30, 2011, at 7:57 AM, knot_weed wrote: > > > > > > > I didn't say it was a BORRELIA Western Blot , but a Western Blot that detected the Bartonella. > > you said " I may have a false positive Lyme test, > because of my Bartonella being so high on the Western Blot, " > > Either you made a very confusing statement here or you don't have a clue what you are talking about. Just for the record, I'm a biochemist and have plenty of experience with this technology. > > YES, you can have a Western Blot for Bartonella (theoretically, I have never seen one though here in Europe; they only use and PCR for Bart). But that is NOT a Lyme Western Blot, it would be an entirely different test. > > And if you are suggesting that a Western Blot tests for both Borrelia and Bartonella at the same time, well ... that would be a patently stupid test, with the IDSA guys grinning from ear to ear because every outcome could be called a false positive > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 From what I recall of your first post, you thought that's what your doctor said. Any way to confirm with him? It's like the game Telephone - what was said at the beginning and repeated at the end can be two very different things. deb > > > > > > I didn't say it was a BORRELIA Western Blot , but a Western Blot that detected the Bartonella. > > > > you said " I may have a false positive Lyme test, > > because of my Bartonella being so high on the Western Blot, " > > > > Either you made a very confusing statement here or you don't have a clue what you are talking about. Just for the record, I'm a biochemist and have plenty of experience with this technology. > > > > YES, you can have a Western Blot for Bartonella (theoretically, I have never seen one though here in Europe; they only use and PCR for Bart). But that is NOT a Lyme Western Blot, it would be an entirely different test. > > > > And if you are suggesting that a Western Blot tests for both Borrelia and Bartonella at the same time, well ... that would be a patently stupid test, with the IDSA guys grinning from ear to ear because every outcome could be called a false positive > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 Educated Guess??????????????? Not sure Doctors should be giving out educated guesses!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 8:08 AM, Deb57 <ds@...> wrote: > > > From what I recall of your first post, you thought that's what your doctor > said. Any way to confirm with him? It's like the game Telephone - what was > said at the beginning and repeated at the end can be two very different > things. > > deb > > > > > > > > > > I didn't say it was a BORRELIA Western Blot , but a Western Blot that > detected the Bartonella. > > > > > > you said " I may have a false positive Lyme test, > > > because of my Bartonella being so high on the Western Blot, " > > > > > > Either you made a very confusing statement here or you don't have a > clue what you are talking about. Just for the record, I'm a biochemist and > have plenty of experience with this technology. > > > > > > YES, you can have a Western Blot for Bartonella (theoretically, I have > never seen one though here in Europe; they only use and PCR for Bart). > But that is NOT a Lyme Western Blot, it would be an entirely different test. > > > > > > > And if you are suggesting that a Western Blot tests for both Borrelia > and Bartonella at the same time, well ... that would be a patently stupid > test, with the IDSA guys grinning from ear to ear because every outcome > could be called a false positive > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 > There are no certainties when it comes to Lyme. but there are certainties when it comes to technologies like Western Blots (or Southern Blots, Northern Blots, for that matter). I'm sure someone (not necessarily you) is making a wrong interpretation. Even then you would be in good company, because most neurologists and other MD's that I have met don't understand Lyme Western Blots either Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 Knotweed,  If the tests are so certain why are even the companies that do them so fractured on how to interpret them. IGENEX has one standard, other companies their own.CDC standards are all together different again.  I always appreciate your knowledge and your comments...but I personally want to hear all peoples views. We learn from discourse and I ask that you let people speak out without disenfranchising them from this group.       Jeff From: knot_weed <tek0nik@...> Subject: [ ] Re: CD57 Test ??? Date: Monday, January 31, 2011, 9:51 AM  > There are no certainties when it comes to Lyme. but there are certainties when it comes to technologies like Western Blots (or Southern Blots, Northern Blots, for that matter). I'm sure someone (not necessarily you) is making a wrong interpretation. Even then you would be in good company, because most neurologists and other MD's that I have met don't understand Lyme Western Blots either Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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