Guest guest Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 Jeff, I, too, enjoy Knotweed's posts; however, everyone has the opportunity to speak up and share their opinions. If it just so happens that Knotweed is the only one engaging in conversation then so be it. We're all here to learn and provide support to each other and at times, a healthy debate may ensue. As long as we're all respectful, where's the harm? On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 5:13 PM, Jeff Hickson <jeffreydhickson@...>wrote: > > > Knotweed, If the tests are so certain why are even the companies that do > them so fractured on how to interpret them. IGENEX has one standard, other > companies their own.CDC standards are all together different again. I > always appreciate your knowledge and your comments...but I personally want > to hear all peoples views. We learn from discourse and I ask that you let > people speak out without disenfranchising them from this group. > > > Jeff > > > > From: knot_weed <tek0nik@... <tek0nik%40>> > Subject: [ ] Re: CD57 Test ??? > < %40> > Date: Monday, January 31, 2011, 9:51 AM > > > > > > There are no certainties when it comes to Lyme. > > but there are certainties when it comes to technologies like Western Blots > (or Southern Blots, Northern Blots, for that matter). > > I'm sure someone (not necessarily you) is making a wrong interpretation. > Even then you would be in good company, because most neurologists and other > MD's that I have met don't understand Lyme Western Blots either > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 I think the point Knot was trying to make was that the information as presented was confusing and ran counter to his knowledge of the tests. Lyme is confusing enough as it is, even with the most reliable information. When someone makes a comment, a rather definitive comment at that, that runs counter to the general knowledge base, it needs to be pointed out and addressed. As we all know, the blogoshpere is perilously full of misinformation, and it is important that this site remain as free of it as possible. Interestingly, the discussion is probably of most value to the original poster, if in fact, the doctor is confused, or perhaps, wrong. If nothing was said about the original post, it may have blown right past without anyone ever discovering whether it is, in fact, true or not. It is the penalty of " peer review " , that it often is not pretty or pleasant. When it becomes a 'my LLMD is bigger than your LLMD' type of discussion, it pretty much disintigrates very rapidly to some very condescending comments and pithy drivel. I'm not interested in revisiting the posts, but I don't think anyone can lay that on Knotweed. At least that is the way that I read the dialogue. ________________________________ From: Jeff Hickson <jeffreydhickson@...> Sent: Mon, January 31, 2011 3:13:25 PM Subject: Re: [ ] Re: CD57 Test ??? Knotweed, If the tests are so certain why are even the companies that do them so fractured on how to interpret them. IGENEX has one standard, other companies their own.CDC standards are all together different again. I always appreciate your knowledge and your comments...but I personally want to hear all peoples views. We learn from discourse and I ask that you let people speak out without disenfranchising them from this group. Jeff From: knot_weed <tek0nik@...> Subject: [ ] Re: CD57 Test ??? Date: Monday, January 31, 2011, 9:51 AM > There are no certainties when it comes to Lyme. but there are certainties when it comes to technologies like Western Blots (or Southern Blots, Northern Blots, for that matter). I'm sure someone (not necessarily you) is making a wrong interpretation. Even then you would be in good company, because most neurologists and other MD's that I have met don't understand Lyme Western Blots either Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2011 Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 > > I think the point Knot was trying to make was that the information as presented > was confusing and ran counter to his knowledge of the tests. yes, exactly. I'm worried about all the wrong information that is spread on lyme forums. Often it works a bit like this: someone says something that is a bit confusing or out of context, somebody else draws their own conclusions from it and before you know people are stating something that is completely wrong because 'it is on internet'. As I mentioned to the OP, even medical docters often have the strangest ideas about testing, e.g. how you could get 'false positives' in a Borrelia Western Blot. They often don't have a clue about the technology and as a result, can draw conclusions that are totally wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2011 Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 Hi Knotweed, You used “getting a false positive Western Blot for Borrelia†as an example what do you think the chances are of a false pos in the WB? Thanks, Karol From: knot_weed Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 4:05 AM Subject: [ ] Re:False Pos Western Blot? > > I think the point Knot was trying to make was that the information as presented > was confusing and ran counter to his knowledge of the tests. yes, exactly. I'm worried about all the wrong information that is spread on lyme forums. Often it works a bit like this: someone says something that is a bit confusing or out of context, somebody else draws their own conclusions from it and before you know people are stating something that is completely wrong because 'it is on internet'. As I mentioned to the OP, even medical docters often have the strangest ideas about testing, e.g. how you could get 'false positives' in a Borrelia Western Blot. They often don't have a clue about the technology and as a result, can draw conclusions that are totally wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 > > > Hi Knotweed, You used “getting a false positive Western Blot for Borrelia†as an example what do you think the chances are of a false pos in the WB? In a good Borrelia Western Blot the chance of a real false positive is a few % at most. This is mostly influenced by potential cross-reactions with other pathogens (e.g. relapse fever Borrelia, Treponema, certain viruses) that can cause one or a few bands to flare up. Most of these cross-reactions are not common in the average population. However, if you have someone without tick byte history, EM etc., and vague complaints, then these cross-reactions get more important. In the test that I mentioned yesterday, there was significant cross-reactivity with controls that had either syfilis or mycoplasma pneumonia infection; but such cases are relatively rare in the normal population (way below 1% I guess). There was just one case of a positive western blot for a healthy control (and even then you have to wonder if it really is a 'false positive' - you never know for sure if people are 'health' in a tick high risk area like Netherlands). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2011 Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 A western blot test doesnt detect bartonella, but bartonella can indeed cause a false positive lyme western blot. Bartonella can certainly crossreact with lots of the bands in the western blot , even the ones that are lyme specific.I see a bartonella specialist in land and he told me so. My igg was only positive for p41 and guess what thats the tail or flagella of borrelia , but wait nasty bartonella also has a tail! > > > > No, I did not misunderstand what he said. He said the Western Blot will rarely detect Bartonella, but in my case it did and it was high, which could have skewed the Lyme test and made it a false positive, but of course all this can't be proved. > > > really, I have NEVER read anything like that and cannot imagine how it would be possible to occur. I have read hundreds of scientific articles about all the different lyme tests, and never come across anything like that. > > A Lyme (Borrelia) Western Blot test does NOT detect Bartonella, no way! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 > > A western blot test doesnt detect bartonella, but bartonella can indeed cause a false positive lyme western blot. Bartonella can certainly crossreact with lots of the bands in the western blot , even the ones that are lyme specific. I really would like to see a scientific reference for that statement. A few unspecific crossreactions (i.e. with NON-specific Borrelia bands) are theoretically possible, as there are many different Bart species (most of them not human pathogens). But that Bart crossreacts with multiple SPECIFIC Borrelia bands is totally impossible IMHO. > My igg was only positive for p41 and guess what thats the tail or flagella of borrelia , but wait nasty bartonella also has a tail! tail - I guess you mean a flagella? Most Bartonella species don't have this, and AFAIK none of them has the p41 protein that is common among the spirochetes (and a few other bacteria with flagellas). If the only band is p41 you really don't know anything, especially if it's an IGG band. It might as well be an old dental infection or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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