Re: New in here.request for help-

[Guest guest]

>

> thanks for explanation, I shall order also his other books t get more deeper

in

> his way of understanding lyme. BUt still, plants likeartemisa are directky

> killing the bugs as well as cats claw, which was proven by E.Sapi...

No, catsclaw does NOT directly kill Borrelia, and I don't agree with the recent

research articles from Sapi. I have had several discussions about it here. I

think it is interesting research, but most of here conclusions are unfounded,

and patients are getting the wrong message.

Also, none of the research is peer-reviewed (from what I heard, it is all done

by students and not official researchers so it will never be officially

published ...). Even in her own paper you can see that the results vary strongly

between different experiments.

One of the problems is that this is in vitro research that does NOT apply to

obligatory parasites like Borrelia. Bb behaves totally different in the host

than in a cell culture or petri dish. This applies both to herbs and ABX. For

example erythromycin kills Bb in the testtube and is totally ineffective in vivo

(in the patient).

Artemisia is probably directly killing yes, it is a special herb.

> I have not used klacid as Dr. Bozsik aims directly to substrain as he had some

> evidence from in vitro tets that certain ABX are more efficient to certain

> strains of borelia.

yes, there are probably strain differences, but there is very little proven

knowledge. Bozsik is one of the people who has tried to work on this, but it

seems the IDSA people don't want to have his work publicized in the major

medical journals ...

It is important that someone else (from other country) checks his findings. It

could be that the ABX sensitivity depends on plasmids that are easily exchanged

between different Bb strains. In that case it is just coincidence if a certain

Bb strain is sensitive to certain ABX, and this might vary between countries or

regions.

Hopefully we will learn more about this now that about 15 Bb strains have had

their full DNA sequenced, and another 10 or so are in progress. The group of Ben

Luft in the US is planning to do more experiments regarding strain differences.

Not only for ABX sensitivity, it might also be that other properties like

persistence, disease symptoms etc. depend on the Bb strain (or on the plasmids

that it happens to carry ...).

[Guest guest]

Man, you know something :-) I learned from Bozsik that sapi is letting her

students do the research, that is right, he also had some doubts ...thats true

that in votro and in vivo results are comething completelly different.

Yeah, nobody wants to publish Dr. Bozsiks findings, I have some of his articles

or the article which he prepared for one medical journal but he was refused.

Maybe also the fact that he uses fluorquinolones in very high dose will play

againts him as its very discutable type of ABX.

Bozsik worked on lyme in lab since 1984, he worked with Burgdorfer too and he is

really encyclopedy about borelia. He knows a lot and he believes his protocol as

any doctor would do.

We also haveanother lab expert in Czech, Dr. HUlinska who totally disagree with

Bozsiks methods and tells very badly against him. But she is very reputable in

academic world.

But as Hulinska diagree with Bozsik, noone in czech will recongnize my positive

tests from him as valid not even speaking on his microscope findings which he

recorded on video and I showed to local " specilists " . They called to HUlinska

who said its nonsence and tricky so they said that I shall forget on

coinfections as its total nonsense in CZech. But she herself proved that around

11% of ticks in Pragues and around Prague are infected with bartonella.

Any, this are all just debates, finding the treatment is the most important...

m

________________________________

From: knot_weed <tek0nik@...>

Sent: Thu, March 10, 2011 10:20:51 PM

Subject: [ ] Re: New in here.request for help-

>

> thanks for explanation, I shall order also his other books t get more deeper

in

>

> his way of understanding lyme. BUt still, plants likeartemisa are directky

> killing the bugs as well as cats claw, which was proven by E.Sapi...

No, catsclaw does NOT directly kill Borrelia, and I don't agree with the recent

research articles from Sapi. I have had several discussions about it here. I

think it is interesting research, but most of here conclusions are unfounded,

and patients are getting the wrong message.

Also, none of the research is peer-reviewed (from what I heard, it is all done

by students and not official researchers so it will never be officially

published ...). Even in her own paper you can see that the results vary strongly

between different experiments.

One of the problems is that this is in vitro research that does NOT apply to

obligatory parasites like Borrelia. Bb behaves totally different in the host

than in a cell culture or petri dish. This applies both to herbs and ABX. For

example erythromycin kills Bb in the testtube and is totally ineffective in vivo

(in the patient).

Artemisia is probably directly killing yes, it is a special herb.

> I have not used klacid as Dr. Bozsik aims directly to substrain as he had some

> evidence from in vitro tets that certain ABX are more efficient to certain

> strains of borelia.

yes, there are probably strain differences, but there is very little proven

knowledge. Bozsik is one of the people who has tried to work on this, but it

seems the IDSA people don't want to have his work publicized in the major

medical journals ...

It is important that someone else (from other country) checks his findings. It

could be that the ABX sensitivity depends on plasmids that are easily exchanged

between different Bb strains. In that case it is just coincidence if a certain

Bb strain is sensitive to certain ABX, and this might vary between countries or

regions.

Hopefully we will learn more about this now that about 15 Bb strains have had

their full DNA sequenced, and another 10 or so are in progress. The group of Ben

Luft in the US is planning to do more experiments regarding strain differences.

Not only for ABX sensitivity, it might also be that other properties like

persistence, disease symptoms etc. depend on the Bb strain (or on the plasmids

that it happens to carry ...).

[Guest guest]

several

of the Buhner herbs are proven agents that disrupt quorum sensing (QS), the

language that many pathogenic bacteria (including probably Bb) use to coordinate

their actions.

Knotweed, which of Buhner's herbs would this be?

[Guest guest]

I have heard about Artemesia or Arteminisin, but I think I heard that some

people herx way too much,

is this true in your opinion?

On Thu, Mar 10, 2011 at 3:20 PM, knot_weed <tek0nik@...> wrote:

>

>

>

>

>

> >

> > thanks for explanation, I shall order also his other books t get more

> deeper in

> > his way of understanding lyme. BUt still, plants likeartemisa are

> directky

> > killing the bugs as well as cats claw, which was proven by E.Sapi...

>

> No, catsclaw does NOT directly kill Borrelia, and I don't agree with the

> recent research articles from Sapi. I have had several discussions about it

> here. I think it is interesting research, but most of here conclusions are

> unfounded, and patients are getting the wrong message.

> Also, none of the research is peer-reviewed (from what I heard, it is all

> done by students and not official researchers so it will never be officially

> published ...). Even in her own paper you can see that the results vary

> strongly between different experiments.

> One of the problems is that this is in vitro research that does NOT apply

> to obligatory parasites like Borrelia. Bb behaves totally different in the

> host than in a cell culture or petri dish. This applies both to herbs and

> ABX. For example erythromycin kills Bb in the testtube and is totally

> ineffective in vivo (in the patient).

>

> Artemisia is probably directly killing yes, it is a special herb.

>

>

> > I have not used klacid as Dr. Bozsik aims directly to substrain as he had

> some

> > evidence from in vitro tets that certain ABX are more efficient to

> certain

> > strains of borelia.

>

> yes, there are probably strain differences, but there is very little proven

> knowledge. Bozsik is one of the people who has tried to work on this, but it

> seems the IDSA people don't want to have his work publicized in the major

> medical journals ...

>

> It is important that someone else (from other country) checks his findings.

> It could be that the ABX sensitivity depends on plasmids that are easily

> exchanged between different Bb strains. In that case it is just coincidence

> if a certain Bb strain is sensitive to certain ABX, and this might vary

> between countries or regions.

>

> Hopefully we will learn more about this now that about 15 Bb strains have

> had their full DNA sequenced, and another 10 or so are in progress. The

> group of Ben Luft in the US is planning to do more experiments regarding

> strain differences. Not only for ABX sensitivity, it might also be that

> other properties like persistence, disease symptoms etc. depend on the Bb

> strain (or on the plasmids that it happens to carry ...).

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I had a strong herx to the Arteminisin so I used Sweet Wormwood (Artemesia) in

tincture form. That worked well for me. I stopped when my new doctor put me on

A-Bab. But, it was definitely helping the Babesia.

Connie

Re: [ ] Re: New in here.request for help-

I have heard about Artemesia or Arteminisin, but I think I heard that some

people herx way too much,

is this true in your opinion?

[Guest guest]

>

> it is very confusing to me, as to what to take when,

> with food/without food, etc.

yes, this is complicated and if you take many different meds nobody really knows

what is best.

IMHO with most herbs it is less critical (e.g. catsclaw is better taken

separately from food, otherwise absorption/activation may be incomplete so the

dose is effectively a bit lower).

Take probiotics away from herbs (some of them could hurt the probiotic

bacteria). I don't think there is a problem using herbs and most ABX together.

[Guest guest]

>

> Maybe also the fact that he uses fluorquinolones in very high dose will play

> againts him as its very discutable type of ABX.

yes, this is a problem. But I think it is first of all a political issue. He

does not agree with the IDSA bunch, guys like Wormser and all the other idiots

around him from Yale, Hopkins etc.

> Bozsik worked on lyme in lab since 1984, he worked with Burgdorfer too and he

is

> really encyclopedy about borelia. He knows a lot and he believes his protocol

as

> any doctor would do.

Yes, I have read a lot about him. But in some cases he has strange scientific

opinions.

> But as Hulinska diagree with Bozsik, noone in czech will recongnize my

positive

> tests from him as valid not even speaking on his microscope findings which he

> recorded on video and I showed to local " specilists " . They called to HUlinska

> who said its nonsence and tricky so they said that I shall forget on

> coinfections as its total nonsense in CZech. But she herself proved that

around

> 11% of ticks in Pragues and around Prague are infected with bartonella.

same problem everywhere. I also had microscope videos done after 1 year of

intensive ABX and 1 year of Buhner, that clearly show live spirochetes. The

microbiologists and medical doctors that make the Lyme guidelines say this is

impossible and they don't want to discuss it. My neurologist believes it is Bb,

as he has some other patients with similar videos (sometimes also showing

coinfections).

I think this microscopy is very valuable, I'm hoping to find something better

(with higher resolution) to do more research and settle these discussions ...

We also have endless discussions here about the importance of positive serologic

tests, or even positive PCR tests here.

It is all politics, not science

I'm a former biochemist, and spending some of my time on discussions with with

politics and people from the Dutch CDC etc, who make the lyme guidelines. All

the responsible doctors and most of the scientists prefer to stick their head in

the sand, and do as if Lyme does not exist, or that it is a very minor problem.

It is very difficult to change something

[Guest guest]

>

> I have heard about Artemesia or Arteminisin, but I think I heard that some

> people herx way too much,

> is this true in your opinion?

I only know it is a very strong herb. I can imagine people herx strongly, but

usually that is a matter of starting with the right dose.

[Guest guest]

yeah, its same everywhere. We also have a group of úeople trying to change

something but no doctors to support (maybe one who is carefully interventing on

Ministry of health) but it does not lead anywhere as for those who create

guidelines are in love with Wormser and this group of " terorists " :-)

What do you mean by strange scientific opinions of Bozsik? I just know he is

very religious person but do not know much about any controversy in his

academical apporach.

But I agree its all politiscs and unwill to do something with lyme and also

other " new " infections...

MAybe you can discuss Bozsik directly, he is retired now, just doing research

and sometimes accepting patients but he is very willing to share his knowledge

with coleaques.

M

________________________________

From: knot_weed <tek0nik@...>

Sent: Fri, March 11, 2011 8:51:08 PM

Subject: [ ] Re: New in here.request for help-

>

> Maybe also the fact that he uses fluorquinolones in very high dose will play

> againts him as its very discutable type of ABX.

yes, this is a problem. But I think it is first of all a political issue. He

does not agree with the IDSA bunch, guys like Wormser and all the other idiots

around him from Yale, Hopkins etc.

> Bozsik worked on lyme in lab since 1984, he worked with Burgdorfer too and he

>is

>

> really encyclopedy about borelia. He knows a lot and he believes his protocol

>as

>

> any doctor would do.

Yes, I have read a lot about him. But in some cases he has strange scientific

opinions.

> But as Hulinska diagree with Bozsik, noone in czech will recongnize my

positive

>

> tests from him as valid not even speaking on his microscope findings which he

> recorded on video and I showed to local " specilists " . They called to HUlinska

> who said its nonsence and tricky so they said that I shall forget on

> coinfections as its total nonsense in CZech. But she herself proved that

around

>

> 11% of ticks in Pragues and around Prague are infected with bartonella.

same problem everywhere. I also had microscope videos done after 1 year of

intensive ABX and 1 year of Buhner, that clearly show live spirochetes. The

microbiologists and medical doctors that make the Lyme guidelines say this is

impossible and they don't want to discuss it. My neurologist believes it is Bb,

as he has some other patients with similar videos (sometimes also showing

coinfections).

I think this microscopy is very valuable, I'm hoping to find something better

(with higher resolution) to do more research and settle these discussions ...

We also have endless discussions here about the importance of positive serologic

tests, or even positive PCR tests here.

It is all politics, not science

I'm a former biochemist, and spending some of my time on discussions with with

politics and people from the Dutch CDC etc, who make the lyme guidelines. All

the responsible doctors and most of the scientists prefer to stick their head in

the sand, and do as if Lyme does not exist, or that it is a very minor problem.

It is very difficult to change something

[Guest guest]

I fI wou dhave known before a few years ago i would have gone right to the most

powerfull the coil

and as detox colonix and ozone It woudl have saved me time money stress

suffering for years

Marie

________________________________

From: dixieleeo tds.net <dixieleeo@...>

Sent: Thu, March 10, 2011 5:20:00 PM

Subject: Re: [ ] Re: New in here.request for help-

 

I have heard about Artemesia or Arteminisin, but I think I heard that some

people herx way too much,

is this true in your opinion?

On Thu, Mar 10, 2011 at 3:20 PM, knot_weed <tek0nik@...> wrote:

>

>

>

>

>

> >

> > thanks for explanation, I shall order also his other books t get more

> deeper in

> > his way of understanding lyme. BUt still, plants likeartemisa are

> directky

> > killing the bugs as well as cats claw, which was proven by E.Sapi...

>

> No, catsclaw does NOT directly kill Borrelia, and I don't agree with the

> recent research articles from Sapi. I have had several discussions about it

> here. I think it is interesting research, but most of here conclusions are

> unfounded, and patients are getting the wrong message.

> Also, none of the research is peer-reviewed (from what I heard, it is all

> done by students and not official researchers so it will never be officially

> published ...). Even in her own paper you can see that the results vary

> strongly between different experiments.

> One of the problems is that this is in vitro research that does NOT apply

> to obligatory parasites like Borrelia. Bb behaves totally different in the

> host than in a cell culture or petri dish. This applies both to herbs and

> ABX. For example erythromycin kills Bb in the testtube and is totally

> ineffective in vivo (in the patient).

>

> Artemisia is probably directly killing yes, it is a special herb.

>

>

> > I have not used klacid as Dr. Bozsik aims directly to substrain as he had

> some

> > evidence from in vitro tets that certain ABX are more efficient to

> certain

> > strains of borelia.

>

> yes, there are probably strain differences, but there is very little proven

> knowledge. Bozsik is one of the people who has tried to work on this, but it

> seems the IDSA people don't want to have his work publicized in the major

> medical journals ...

>

> It is important that someone else (from other country) checks his findings.

> It could be that the ABX sensitivity depends on plasmids that are easily

> exchanged between different Bb strains. In that case it is just coincidence

> if a certain Bb strain is sensitive to certain ABX, and this might vary

> between countries or regions.

>

> Hopefully we will learn more about this now that about 15 Bb strains have

> had their full DNA sequenced, and another 10 or so are in progress. The

> group of Ben Luft in the US is planning to do more experiments regarding

> strain differences. Not only for ABX sensitivity, it might also be that

> other properties like persistence, disease symptoms etc. depend on the Bb

> strain (or on the plasmids that it happens to carry ...).

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

by the way-what is coil?

Sorry for such stupid question..

m

________________________________

From: Marie Benoit <mariebenoit11@...>

Sent: Sat, March 12, 2011 2:45:43 AM

Subject: Re: [ ] Re: New in here.request for help-

I fI wou dhave known before a few years ago i would have gone right to the most

powerfull the coil

and as detox colonix and ozone It woudl have saved me time money stress

suffering for years

Marie

________________________________

From: dixieleeo tds.net <dixieleeo@...>

Sent: Thu, March 10, 2011 5:20:00 PM

Subject: Re: [ ] Re: New in here.request for help-

I have heard about Artemesia or Arteminisin, but I think I heard that some

people herx way too much,

is this true in your opinion?

On Thu, Mar 10, 2011 at 3:20 PM, knot_weed <tek0nik@...> wrote:

>

>

>

>

>

> >

> > thanks for explanation, I shall order also his other books t get more

> deeper in

> > his way of understanding lyme. BUt still, plants likeartemisa are

> directky

> > killing the bugs as well as cats claw, which was proven by E.Sapi...

>

> No, catsclaw does NOT directly kill Borrelia, and I don't agree with the

> recent research articles from Sapi. I have had several discussions about it

> here. I think it is interesting research, but most of here conclusions are

> unfounded, and patients are getting the wrong message.

> Also, none of the research is peer-reviewed (from what I heard, it is all

> done by students and not official researchers so it will never be officially

> published ...). Even in her own paper you can see that the results vary

> strongly between different experiments.

> One of the problems is that this is in vitro research that does NOT apply

> to obligatory parasites like Borrelia. Bb behaves totally different in the

> host than in a cell culture or petri dish. This applies both to herbs and

> ABX. For example erythromycin kills Bb in the testtube and is totally

> ineffective in vivo (in the patient).

>

> Artemisia is probably directly killing yes, it is a special herb.

>

>

> > I have not used klacid as Dr. Bozsik aims directly to substrain as he had

> some

> > evidence from in vitro tets that certain ABX are more efficient to

> certain

> > strains of borelia.

>

> yes, there are probably strain differences, but there is very little proven

> knowledge. Bozsik is one of the people who has tried to work on this, but it

> seems the IDSA people don't want to have his work publicized in the major

> medical journals ...

>

> It is important that someone else (from other country) checks his findings.

> It could be that the ABX sensitivity depends on plasmids that are easily

> exchanged between different Bb strains. In that case it is just coincidence

> if a certain Bb strain is sensitive to certain ABX, and this might vary

> between countries or regions.

>

> Hopefully we will learn more about this now that about 15 Bb strains have

> had their full DNA sequenced, and another 10 or so are in progress. The

> group of Ben Luft in the US is planning to do more experiments regarding

> strain differences. Not only for ABX sensitivity, it might also be that

> other properties like persistence, disease symptoms etc. depend on the Bb

> strain (or on the plasmids that it happens to carry ...).

>

>

>