flagyl

[Guest guest]

Hey, there neighbor Deb! (What happened to your " NurseDeb " signoff?) So glad to

hear you got rid of that dang cane! That is amazing news -- and I well remember

how I felt the first time I was able to do without mine, so I can really imagine

how wonderful you are feeling without it. Congrats! I pray it continues for a

long, long time.

As far as getting used to staying home, that will change, also. But you have to

" force " yourself to get out a bit. Just for a little while each day, or you'll

end up being housebound. I know that feeling all too well, too. (I was for

awhile.) ANd now rarely, rarely EVER leaves the house...Karaoke can hardly

lure him out, either, and you know his previous passion for that. He did go with

me Saturday night, but he could not enjoy. Breaks my heart. We had to leave

early -- all the people, the noise, even the music was too much. Just couldn't

even enjoy it, and he didn't even care if he sang or not.

I must come by soon and see your beautiful roses. With the weather being cooler,

I can get outside, too!

Love ya,

Rose in TX

From: " dmthompson4us " <dmthompson4@...>

Subject: Re: Flagyl

Phil,

Thanks for the memory jog. It sounds like your doc is on

top of

things.............I think that many docs, even some

LLMD's, don't

pay enough attention to those encapsulated critters.

Patient

compliance is also a big problem because Flagyl is such a

difficult

drug to tolerate. It is especially helpful to the yeastie

beasties.

Candida probs with Flagyl are often much worse than with

other

antibiotics.

Here is a link to the actual package insert. It does

mention some

CNS side effects like incoordination, confusion,

irritability,

peripheral neuropathy, seizures........doesn't actually

come out and

say SPACEY, but just the die-off alone can make you feel

spaced out.

Your brain is full of toxins created when the Bb are

zapped. So

you've got embedded Bb., dead Bb., and the neurotoxins,

throw in some

yeast, and any other medications you might be taking and I

can see

" S-P-A-C-Y " going on. <grin> Hey, spacey might actually

be an

improvement from brain-dead! Don't mean to minimize your

concern -

it IS scary when our body surprises us..........especially

after

spending so much time together.

Hang in there, and welcome back. I've been away, too. Did

IV

Rocephin over the summer and although it helped

tremendously with my

arthritis in my hip (got to get rid of the cane! Yippee!) I

feel more

debilitated than before. No energy, can't sleep, been

sittin' on

the " pitty potty " .......

But I'm tired of that so I'm trying real hard to get

outside each

day - gonna prune me roses before we get our first

frost/freeze down

here in Texas. And that has helped a lot. Lifts my

spirits. Good

surroundings to meditate/pray. Plus I'm finally off the

Doxy and can

go outside again - had to spend most of the last 8 months

hiding from

the brutal sun here. It's a balmy 68 degrees this

afternoon and all

the trees are turning, finally. We've had lots of rain so

the colors

are better than usual. Try it! And it is good to hear

from you

again. It amazes me how many connections there really are

on this

list. I'm glad you got lots of replies and feel supported.

Since I've been " officially " disabled 2 1/2 years.......the

more I

stay in my house the harder it gets for me to leave it, ya

know? Do

you feel this? But I refuse to give in completely to this

dang

disease. Being disabled has allowed me to spend more time

with my

child, be more involved at his school and with his

teachers, to slow

down and " smell the roses " ........to dig in the dirt a

little if I

feel up to it.

Well, I've worn myself out today so I'm going to take a

nap. Click

on this link and it will bring up the package insert in

PDF. The

writing is so tiny that I enlarged it to 125%, but it might

just be

my eyes.

Take Care,

Deb

****TOIL for Lyme****

T=Teach tolerance * 0=Overcome ignorance * I=Initiate insurance reform * L=Labor

for Lyme literacy

For Lyme info, see www.lymeinfo.net, www.lymenet.org,

www.angelfire.com/tx3/RoseWriter, www.angelfire.com/biz/romarkaraoke/james.html

[Guest guest]

Beck,

That is interesting -- I had never heard it put this way, that flagyl opens

the cyst form of Bb for the immune system to attack it. My question is, what

if there IS no immune system? What if there just aren't any natural killer

cells floating around in there? My son has almost zilch, according to recent

blood tests. He was on flagyl from May till December, and his liver enzymes

just kept climbing and climbing. I have to wonder if maybe the flagyl was

doing its job, but his body just couldn't do the rest.

You've given me something to ponder....

Judie

[Guest guest]

> In Pub Med there are three abstracts about the use of Flagyl to open the

> cyst form of Lyme.

Dear Beck,

Would you please let me know what Pub Med is and where to find it. This

sounds very useful.

Thank you.

Bluesky

[Guest guest]

You can search for medical abstracts on PubMed from here:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed .

Fore more information about PubMed please see:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query/static/overview.html

=)

Robynn

Re: [ ] Flagyl

> In Pub Med there are three abstracts about the use of Flagyl to open the

> cyst form of Lyme.

Dear Beck,

Would you please let me know what Pub Med is and where to find it. This

sounds very useful.

Thank you.

Bluesky

[Guest guest]

Judie,

Flagyl is usually given with another antibiotic for this very reason. Flagyl

opens the baddies and the other abx helps kill them. Flagyl alone doesn't do

much.

Jen

Re: [ ] Flagyl

Beck,

That is interesting -- I had never heard it put this way, that flagyl opens

the cyst form of Bb for the immune system to attack it. My question is, what

if there IS no immune system? What if there just aren't any natural killer

cells floating around in there? My son has almost zilch, according to recent

blood tests. He was on flagyl from May till December, and his liver enzymes

just kept climbing and climbing. I have to wonder if maybe the flagyl was

doing its job, but his body just couldn't do the rest.

You've given me something to ponder....

Judie

[Guest guest]

Worked good for me as long as I could tolerate it. It is almost

invariably given with something else though. I took it with

zithromax. If the doxy wasn't working I would expect that he would

put you on something else with the flagyl.

E.

>My doctor was not happy with my responce to doxy. He put me on

>Flagyl. Has anyone had good results from this?

[Guest guest]

yes, this is all I am on now. Was on tetra.

[ ] FLAGYL

> My doctor was not happy with my responce to doxy. He put me on

> Flagyl. Has anyone had good results from this?

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

My Lyme doc has me take Flagyl on week 4 of every cycle for one week. Then

take three weeks off. The Flagyl is indeed hard to take, but he said that I

need to get at least three straight days of the flagyl in, aiming for 7

straight days. He really believes it is the best drug for the cyst form of

the disease.

Donna in NC

Flagyl

> ,

> Flagyl and minocycline are tough antibiotics to take, especially flagyl. I

would suggest maybe doxycycline and Zithromax. Right now the Lyme doc I see

is giving me Vantin and Zithromax. So far I am fine on this. You are quite

correct that penicillins will not affect mycoplasma.

> a

[Guest guest]

Holy smoke, yes . . . for the entire time that you take Flagyl, you will

have the trots. The good news is that once you stop, you will be firmer

than ever.

You might find that copious amounts of yogurt with live, active cultures

in abundance eaten throughout the day will be helpful to at least

minimize the problem.

Best -

Nick

Flagyl

Has anyone else who has taken the Flagyl had this diarrhea?

Thanks, Judy E in Eureka

[Guest guest]

,

For me it was a great diet aide... it made many foods taste bad. (Too salty.)

It also made me

feel very, very spacey. Floaty in the head. I felt stressed. I was on it for

six weeks along with

Rocephin. A tip about taking it... it dissolves instantly in saliva. Yuckk in

a big time!

Coat it with olive oil. Both sides. Before swallowing. That helps alot.

Cheryll

[ ] Flagyl

Hi everyone:

I have the flu, feels the same as Lyme except for the fever.

anyway, my dr. is adding flagyl for one month to my amoxy dose. I am

not starting it yet since I am sick already and do not want to herx. I

am out of work for 3 days per my Dr. He initially suggested I was in a

herx but we have not started a new abx.

I asked him questions about cyst formation, and he said let's try

flagyl.

He admits that he does not know all of the answers to Lyme and

treatment except for me feeling better. He believes lab tests are

incorrect often and also can be false negatives. My muscle pain and

fatigue greatly decrease on abx. and have had 2 herxes so, got to still

have lyme.

He is leaving for FL unexpectedly, so I will be seeing his brother who

is in " training " . I see Dr. P in Philly. I have never met him as he has

been out of practice ill for a while. I see his one son and will then

see his other son next month.

So, any words about flagyl?

[Guest guest]

I am taking Flagyl with my IV Doxicycline and it makes me spacey too. Is it

common to Herx as soon as you start taking it? My ankles hurt all over again all

of a sudden! I want this to be over........I am soooooo done!!!!!!!!!!!

Jackie in NH

[ ] Flagyl

Hi everyone:

I have the flu, feels the same as Lyme except for the fever.

anyway, my dr. is adding flagyl for one month to my amoxy dose. I am

not starting it yet since I am sick already and do not want to herx. I

am out of work for 3 days per my Dr. He initially suggested I was in a

herx but we have not started a new abx.

I asked him questions about cyst formation, and he said let's try

flagyl.

He admits that he does not know all of the answers to Lyme and

treatment except for me feeling better. He believes lab tests are

incorrect often and also can be false negatives. My muscle pain and

fatigue greatly decrease on abx. and have had 2 herxes so, got to still

have lyme.

He is leaving for FL unexpectedly, so I will be seeing his brother who

is in " training " . I see Dr. P in Philly. I have never met him as he has

been out of practice ill for a while. I see his one son and will then

see his other son next month.

So, any words about flagyl?

[Guest guest]

It is strong enough to cause herxing. It's a very powerful antibiotic.

Suggestion: take milk thistle. My lab results for the liver are high

after taking it.

Cheryll

[ ] Flagyl

Hi everyone:

I have the flu, feels the same as Lyme except for the fever.

anyway, my dr. is adding flagyl for one month to my amoxy dose. I am

not starting it yet since I am sick already and do not want to herx. I

am out of work for 3 days per my Dr. He initially suggested I was in a

herx but we have not started a new abx.

I asked him questions about cyst formation, and he said let's try

flagyl.

He admits that he does not know all of the answers to Lyme and

treatment except for me feeling better. He believes lab tests are

incorrect often and also can be false negatives. My muscle pain and

fatigue greatly decrease on abx. and have had 2 herxes so, got to still

have lyme.

He is leaving for FL unexpectedly, so I will be seeing his brother who

is in " training " . I see Dr. P in Philly. I have never met him as he has

been out of practice ill for a while. I see his one son and will then

see his other son next month.

So, any words about flagyl?

[Guest guest]

Flagyl breaks open the cyst or L-form of the spirochete so it throws

lots of very active spirochetes into the tissues all at once. Some

of them may have been dormant biding their time, but Flagyl whips

them all into action so to speak, so that the antibiotic can have a

go at them when they are at their most susceptible stage. Incidently

when they are like that they are also highly susceptible to you

knocking them off with hot bathes. If you can stand it. Sometimes

the hot bathes (over 102 degs F.) are hard to handle, but you can

knock off a lot of chetes that way. Just be sure to detox so you

won't get knocked for too big of a loop from the neurotoxins.

(Taking enzymes like Vitalzyme, MultiZyme or Wobenzyme on an empty

stomach will remove neurotoxins out of your bloodstream.)

>

> It is strong enough to cause herxing. It's a very powerful

antibiotic.

> Suggestion: take milk thistle. My lab results for the liver are

high

> after taking it.

>

> Cheryll

>

>

[Guest guest]

dear angela,

could you post some documentation that 'Flagyl breaks open the cyst

form of the spirochete'?

[web site, studies, etc.]

I was under the impression that no antibiotic does that, so if one

does, I'd like to see the research.

thanks very much,

ellen

> >

> > It is strong enough to cause herxing. It's a very powerful

> antibiotic.

> > Suggestion: take milk thistle. My lab results for the liver are

> high

> > after taking it.

> >

> > Cheryll

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Flagyl isn't an antibiotic it's an antiparsitic, antimicrobial. I

don't have any specific bookmarks saved about this aspect of Flagyl.

But I feel sure there is an article on the Canadian Lyme website

that states this. My LLMD told me how Flagyl works and this is all

pretty much common knowledge in the Lyme community from what I

understand. Just as a side note many LLMD's give Diflucan because

recent studies show it damages the cell wall of the spirochete and

allows antibiotics to attack them. I think my Bowen test

demonstrates Flagyl's ability. The spirochetes were all

photographed " hatching out " of their cyst form. I was on Flagyl and

Doxycycline at the time of the test.

> > >

> > > It is strong enough to cause herxing. It's a very powerful

> > antibiotic.

> > > Suggestion: take milk thistle. My lab results for the liver

are

> > high

> > > after taking it.

> > >

> > > Cheryll

> > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

how do you detox?i took arteminisis and after three days had to stop...I think

that i overloaded on toxins..

eric

wtptoo <wtptoo@...> wrote:

Flagyl breaks open the cyst or L-form of the spirochete so it throws

lots of very active spirochetes into the tissues all at once. Some

of them may have been dormant biding their time, but Flagyl whips

them all into action so to speak, so that the antibiotic can have a

go at them when they are at their most susceptible stage. Incidently

when they are like that they are also highly susceptible to you

knocking them off with hot bathes. If you can stand it. Sometimes

the hot bathes (over 102 degs F.) are hard to handle, but you can

knock off a lot of chetes that way. Just be sure to detox so you

won't get knocked for too big of a loop from the neurotoxins.

(Taking enzymes like Vitalzyme, MultiZyme or Wobenzyme on an empty

stomach will remove neurotoxins out of your bloodstream.)

>

> It is strong enough to cause herxing. It's a very powerful

antibiotic.

> Suggestion: take milk thistle. My lab results for the liver are

high

> after taking it.

>

> Cheryll

>

>

[Guest guest]

So there is a pretty strong chance of herxing? I am done with it.

I am very scared to start it. I see my dr. at the end of Oct.

I just go over something viral and don't want to get sick again.

In , " wtptoo " <wtptoo@...> wrote:

>

> Flagyl breaks open the cyst or L-form of the spirochete so it throws

> lots of very active spirochetes into the tissues all at once. Some

> of them may have been dormant biding their time, but Flagyl whips

> them all into action so to speak, so that the antibiotic can have a

> go at them when they are at their most susceptible stage. Incidently

> when they are like that they are also highly susceptible to you

> knocking them off with hot bathes. If you can stand it. Sometimes

> the hot bathes (over 102 degs F.) are hard to handle, but you can

> knock off a lot of chetes that way. Just be sure to detox so you

> won't get knocked for too big of a loop from the neurotoxins.

> (Taking enzymes like Vitalzyme, MultiZyme or Wobenzyme on an empty

> stomach will remove neurotoxins out of your bloodstream.)

>

>

>

>

> >

> > It is strong enough to cause herxing. It's a very powerful

> antibiotic.

> > Suggestion: take milk thistle. My lab results for the liver are

> high

> > after taking it.

> >

> > Cheryll

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

What if I don't herx really really badly...is that not good either?

Re: [ ] Re: Flagyl

Hi, Ellen,

This isn't exactly what you are asking for, but it's a start. From Dr.

Burrascano's treatment guidelines:

" Metronidazole (Flagyl) is commonly used in select patients with treatment

resistant, chronic Lyme. When present in a hostile environment, such as growth

medium lacking some nutrients, or spinal fluid, or serum with certain

antibiotics added, Bb will change into a cystic form. This cyst seems to be able

to remain dormant, but when placed into an environment more favorable to its

growth, the cyst can open, and an intact spirochete emerges. The conventional

antibiotics used for Lyme, such as the penicillins, cephalosporins, etc. do not

kill the cystic form of Bb. Furthermore, the cyst lacks the usual surface

antigens found on the spirochete (these are the markers detected by ELISAs and

western blots). This may be another reason for the chronically sick Lyme patient

remaining seronegative. There is evidence that metronidazole will kill the

cystic

form. This fits with the now well known clinical observations that

metronidazole can be remarkably effective for many chronic Lyme patients.

However, this medication apparently has no effect on intact spirochetes.

Therefore, the trend now is to treat the chronically infected patient who has

resistant disease by combining metronidazole with one or two other antibiotics

to target all forms of Bb. Because there is laboratory evidence that

tetracyclines may inhibit the effect of metronidazole, this class of medication

may not be as useful as others in these two- and three-drug regimens. There have

been some recent reports that Bb does not contain genes that would confer

susceptibility to metronidazole. However, this clearly does not fit with in

vitro and a large body of clinical data, which have demonstrated the usefulness

of this agent in the Lyme patient.

Perhaps we do not have all the genetic information needed to dismiss the use

of this agent. Once again, real world experience is one step ahead of bench

research.

Important precautions:

Pregnancy while on metronidazole is not advised, as there is a risk of birth

defects.

No alcohol consumption! A severe, " antabuse " reaction will occur, consisting

of severe nausea, flushing, headache, and other unpleasant symptoms.

Metronidazole is potentially neurotoxic. Peripheral neuropathy may result.

Therefore, breaks in treatment are commonly prescribed, such as using this agent

every other week.

Yeast overgrowth is especially common. A strict anti-yeast regimen must be

followed.

VERY severe Herxheimer-like reactions are seen in the more ill patient during

the first week of therapy, and again four weeks later. "

So, it appears there is no reliable supporting research - just clinical data.

[Guest guest]

Licorice root capsules and burbur extract are both good for detoxing.

[Guest guest]

thanks,

that's really fascinating that they were able to photograph the

spirochetes breaking out of the cysts.

ellen

> > > >

> > > > It is strong enough to cause herxing. It's a very powerful

> > > antibiotic.

> > > > Suggestion: take milk thistle. My lab results for the

liver

> are

> > > high

> > > > after taking it.

> > > >

> > > > Cheryll

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

, there are lots of things you can do to detox. Lots of water,

about 100 oz at least. (filtered water)

chlorella

activated charcoal

bentonite clay

milk thistle

coffee enema ( some do,i dont )

are all good things you can do for detox.

I personally like the bentonite clay. You can buy liquid form, or

the powder and mix it yourself.

theres a goo recipe called a p and b shake.

1 tablespoon psyllium husk (whole) 1 tsp if its powder

and one tablespoon bentonite liquid and 10 oz of water or diluted

juice. Shake it and drink, followed by 10 more oz of water.

do this at least one hour before or after food or supplements. Best

at night or first thing in the am on empty stomach. I always have

much less fog after doing a few of these. you can work up to 4 or 5

times a day.

The clay is tasteless.

> >

> > It is strong enough to cause herxing. It's a very powerful

> antibiotic.

> > Suggestion: take milk thistle. My lab results for the liver are

> high

> > after taking it.

> >

> > Cheryll

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

If you do take Flagyl again, see if you can start on a really low dose and

gradually work up in order to minimize herxing.

Good luck!

On Mon, Jul 20, 2009 at 1:47 PM, Janet Ring <janet.ring@...> wrote:

>

>

> About 25 years ago, I took a course of Flagyl, after which (and the key

> word

> here is " after " ) I experienced a severe " mystery " illness, which my current

> LLMD now thinks was my first herx. (I was not diagnosed with Lyme until

> March '07.)

>

> I was extremely weak to the point of not being able to do much of anything

> except lie down all day-so weak at times that I could not speak. Just the

> effort to get the words from my brain to my mouth was too much energy, if

> you can imagine that. During the weak spells, I felt like I was " sinking " .

> There was also an episode of feeling as if I was on hallucinogenics, there

> were tachycardia attacks where my heart would race to 150 bpm. I would wake

> out of sleep with a start (probably a rush of adrenaline), so I was not

> able

> to sleep at all until I was prescribed something for sleep. During this

> time, I had many blood tests and all of them were normal (of course, they

> didn't do one for Lyme). At one point, I remember having to be taken into

> the doctor's office in a wheelchair, too weak to walk, and having the

> doctor

> tell me that there was nothing wrong with me, that my blood tests showed

> nothing. It took a long time to get my energy back, using natural healing

> methods.

>

> Now, as part of my Lyme treatment, my LLMD wants me to take Flagyl. I have

> avoided that med for 25 years. What I'd like to know is if anyone has had

> similar episodes AFTER taking Flagyl or during the course of taking Flagyl.

>

>

> Thank you,

>

> Janet

>

[Guest guest]

>

> If you do take Flagyl again, see if you can start on a really low dose

and

> gradually work up in order to minimize herxing.

>

> Good luck!

>

>

I second this excellent advise. I went to a LLMD who advocates starting

at 1/4 tab of 250mg a day. I actually found this dose to be helpful

with symptoms: increased energy and less pain.

When I ramped up to 1/2 tab twice a day I felt awful. When I reported

this, he looked at me like I had missed the message... then said, " If

you find a dose that you feel better on, stay on it! Don't increase the

dose just to reach a number. "

I am about to start Flagyl again after four years and that is exactly

what I am going to do.

Best,

[Guest guest]

I would also like to add that herxing can be minimized if you also do plenty

of general detoxing

to flush out the debris and toxins.

On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 7:54 AM, kgg12003 <kggenest@...> wrote:

>

>

>

>

> >

> > If you do take Flagyl again, see if you can start on a really low dose

> and

> > gradually work up in order to minimize herxing.

> >

> > Good luck!

> >

> >

>

> I second this excellent advise. I went to a LLMD who advocates starting

> at 1/4 tab of 250mg a day. I actually found this dose to be helpful

> with symptoms: increased energy and less pain.

>

> When I ramped up to 1/2 tab twice a day I felt awful. When I reported

> this, he looked at me like I had missed the message... then said, " If

> you find a dose that you feel better on, stay on it! Don't increase the

> dose just to reach a number. "

>

> I am about to start Flagyl again after four years and that is exactly

> what I am going to do.

>

> Best,

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I have taken flagyl off and on and it seems to help but I almost always

have VERY vivid nightmares......when you said you felt like you were on

hallucinogenics I can relate.

I think the key is starting with very low doses. My doctor had me start

with just a sliver of the pill and increase gradually to 1/4 then 1/2 etc.

Hope you get to feeling better soon.