Reality check

[Guest guest]

Dear Sherm,

While I don't have anything to add to your comments regarding reimbursement,

besides the fact that PTs seem to take a lot longer than DCs for their

office visits (an hour vs. 10 minutes), I will tell you that my perspective

on the medical and legal establishment's view of DCs is a heck of a lot

different than yours. I spend about a third of my time on forensic issues

from all over the country, and deal with attorneys non-stop, all day long.

Additionally, I practice in setting with an othopod, neurologist,

anaesthesiologists, radiologists and other medical subspecialists, not to

mention work part time at a medical school.

I find that while there are a few people who have ingrained attitudes

towards DCs, there are many in the medical profession who are willing to

take you for your face value, and that the DC gets your foot in the door.

Attorneys, on the whole, have the best idea of the value of chiropractic,

and are some of our most ardent supporters. It is true, there are some who

are biased, but I also know of attorneys who are more offended over this

attitude than most DCs would be, and use it as a litmus test as to whether

they will associate with or even talk to another attorney.

If you're helping people, then who gives a rip what the guy or gal down the

street thinks of you? If you want everyone to be in love with you, become an

Meyer weiner.

Hang in there, you're in a great profession. Reality is what you make it.

D Freeman

Reality Check

> I was reminded of a phone conversation I had a few years ago while

> practicing in Hawaii, with a claims adjustor from an auto insurance

> company, one of the larger in HI, after questioning the reduction of

> charges for hot packs from $8 to $6 on an EOB. She told me that this

> was the prevailing rate for DC's for this service. I asked her why my

> good friend the P.T. around the corner got $28 for his hot pack

> treatment. Her response is funny on the one hand but pathetic on the

> other. She said believe it or not, " well it has to be that physical

> therapists receive more training than you do at the use of hot packs. "

> As usual as I am not different than most;I voiced my concern with her

> lack of common sense, (that's putting it mildly), but took my 6 bucks

> and that's that.

>

> I have in front of me a bill from a local(Oregon) hospital's PT

> department which was billed to my patient's auto ins. co. recently for

> services prior to her coming to my office. The rounded off to the

> nearest $ charges are as follows for one visit: evaluation $121, 97140:

> $47, 97035: $26, 97032: $30, 97110: $46., follow up visits excluded the

> eval charge. She had 4 visits in two weeks and apparently missed 2

> appts. You can do the math. The patient quit going because she wasn't

> feeling any better. You all hear it every day, right? I don't think

> most DC's in Oregon get these kind of fees for these services, or am I

> living in the dark ages of the over 20 years in practice club? If I

> have a subsequent visit over $65-70 I'm feeeling a little vulnerable. I

> sometimes provide the same services as these providers and of course

> additionally and most significantly I adjust the patients. There have

> been discussions in this forum about one carrier's denial of ultrasound

> or electrical stim after 60 days. As far as I can tell the PT's

> " greater training " in these applications make their services

> reimbursable at any time there exist a PIP benefit and at twice what I

> presume most of us charge for the same.

>

> My point is this: we can never play on an even playing field with the

> MD's or even the PT's if we have DC's who are satisfied with our

> perceived value in medicare , managed care, even auto when you compare

> the same services as I have pointed out here. I don't mind getting paid

> $65 for a patient in my office for a half an hour, but if a PT's value

> is perceived as double mine for a similar service, less the

> chiropractic portion of the encounter, then I have a problem. And

> that's for services reimbursed as we are in treating auto cases. How is

> it for most of you when you get 26 or 15 or even 10 dollars for an

> adjustment and are restricted from collecting anything from the

> patients by a contract? I don't care for it. I admit I am in a couple

> of networks, but as you know the folks won't even show up if you're not

> in when they call in the first place.(unless their referred by someone

> who recommends you;possibly)

>

> If we ever agree to agree and I think the consensus is to stay in

> insurance reimbursement ( unless of course, if everyone, that is

> everyone, agreed not to accept insurance, I'd sign up for that. I think

> it would be worth the risk. I think that would be a great milestone in

> Oregon chiropractic history if we all (100%) dropped out of insurance

> of all kinds for some period of time. It would really test the water of

> what our perceived value by the public is.)Of course that will never

> happen. I'd bet that a managed care org. could find DC's willing to

> take five dollars to treat a patient. I wish I am wrong.

>

> So we need to focus on improving the perceived value, and comparable

> fees paid to PT's, since the consensus among decison makers, not

> chiropractic patients, is pretty bad.

>

> When I mentioned to a non patient, an insurance industry executive that

> my daughter paid more for a haircut than I charge for an adjustment, he

> nodded like " that seems about right " , I got yet another taste of

> reality. And I am sure he thought I was a good chiropractor: " if I ever

> need one. " Except by those patients(and maybe some sharp MD, DO

> colleagues,and some attorneys), that so many of us have been blessed to

> help and prove our worth, we aren't even considered doctors.

>

> There have been an awful lot of emails about medicare reimbursement and

> managed care on this thread, so I think a lot of people's attention is

> on how to keep providing for our families. I love that some DC's have

> gotten it together to have cash practices, and I support that concept

> fully, but I couldn't pay the bills on my cash portion.

>

> Oh s---, I apologize for going on. I hope a dialog about how we can fix

> the reason we are in the fix we are can happen, only my past

> experience, tells me it isn't possible. If they have their way we are

> 12 and 30 or worse for PIP and then I am afraid things will be pretty

> ugly for most of our P & L's. I know mine will.

>

> And think about the poor folks who will get the $120-$150 PT visit and

> not even notice we're history, not to mention the many who are

> presently getting that, and don't even know they have a choice to go to

> a DC for their care.

>

> I remember going to Salem 10 years ago and having a meeting with my

> then state rep who I supported in their bid for election. The newly

> settled rep welcomed me, agreed with me this was a bad deal for the

> injured worker, wrong and advised me that they had been essentially put

> on notice that if the vote wasn't cast appropriately (relative to us

> being eliminated from worker's comp beyond 12 & 30) their re-election

> would never occur. You can figure how that rep voted. Many of you

> walked around the State building those days and had the same miserable

> experience with reality that I did that week. A lot remember how lousy

> we all felt, when we realized what we did didn't matter at all in the

> big scheme of things. So what did we all do? We took the hit. Some of

> us were more fortunate than others, our practices adapted. I'm sure if

> you compared apples to apples the bottom line is not what it once was.

> How many could take another hit in the next few years given that

> managed care wasn't even a player in those days?

>

> In the face of this reality I think it very difficult, less than

> something drastic, will ever change the fate we face in the next few

> years. Besides my long windedness what do you think? Sherm

>

>

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[Guest guest]

Thanks for the kind words, . Having spent a lot of time in

chiropractic and more recently in medicine, I seem to have a higher regard

for the integrity and acumen of the average DC than many do of themselves. I

am constantly impressed with the quality of doctors that I meet when

lecturing in different parts of the country.

The one currupting influence on both chiropractic and medicine is the

pursuit of the dollar. How would the practice of chiropractic change if we

all made a million dollars a year for seeing as many or as few patients as

we wanted (but we still have to see patients). Would patients be told to

return as often? Would we be quicker to refer a patient for a second opinion

or a different type of care? I doubt that any of us would advertise or give

away our services for free, or conduct spinal screenings at malls or fairs.

I believe that that there is a certain corrupting influence of the

marketplace for healthcare that affects all of us a little, and some of us

more than others (this is not an attack on anyone's methods of advertising,

just an observation of our profession).

If you want to know the main difference between chiropractic and medicine, I

think that it is how we get our patients. The new MD goes into practice

within a supportive community that is likely to send patients to him or her;

the new DC is more likely to be viewed with suspicion by his or her

competition, and will appeal directly to the end-user - the patient, rather

than colleagues. Now I know that this arrangement is changing, but only

because the medical community is acting more like the chiropractic community

(thanks to managed care), not the other way around.

One of the reasons that I am so happy with the concept behind OregonDCs is

that it defeats the self-destructive hypercompetitive tendencies of the

profession through good communication. I think that when we get together we

find that we really like each other a lot, for the most part. Chiropractors,

in general, are a group of individuals with high ethical and moral values, a

high level of intelligence and intellectual honesty, and a real desire to

help sick and injured people. In particular, most DCs have a wonderful sense

of humor and a great deal of resiliency. As case in point, Sherm, who I

razzed in my earlier e-mail for being a little pouty, fired back an e-mail

that was both gracious and humorous, and helped explain the points he was

trying to make in his first missive.

If we keep this up, we're not going to have anything to complain about!

D Freeman

Re: Re: Reality Check

> Bravo Dr. Freeman,

>

> I enjoyed reading your retort.

>

> I beleive that most chiropractors can be a little misguided with regards

to

> the practice of PT's. I know for a fact, most of the PT's that have

> interviewed with me did not have the foggiest what " went on behind the

doors "

> of their local chiropractor's office. Most PT visits are 4 to 6 times

> longer than the average Dr. to patient contact time.

>

> I am afraid, however, using the same billing criterian; my time is, on the

> average, reimbursed at a lower rate than the local PT. I would be

interested

> in knowing if I could run a practice with 1-Hr office visits in the state

of

> Oregon as a DC.

>

> By the way,

>

> Thank you for your efforts on the behalf of our profession. You really do

> challenge the rest of us to raise our expectations of ourselves.

>

> M. , DC

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/27/01 12:32:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, Ltb3105@...

writes:

<< Glad everything went okay! hehehe.....sounds like Seth did his own thing,

which is fine.....more power to him!

>>

Thanks . Today I asked all my adult friends that were there how did

they see Seth compared to the other kids. Big dose of reality hit when they

all said he was the most severe. I guess I just don't see him the same as

others see him. Or maybe I don't expect as much from him as others. I knew

he wouldn't participate like the other kids, because he is at the gym 5 days

a week and knows which equipment he likes and wanted to be on. *I* was

pleased he didn't throw a fit and scream and cry because *school* came into

his territory. I guess it all depends on how you look at it. *I* knew

singing Happy Birthday would upset him with all the attention, but no one

could understand that either. *I* knew gifts would be a waste of money and

requested " NO GIFTS PLEASE " on the invitation. No one liked that idea either

and all brought gifts, which he will not have anything to do with. I should

have told everyone to just wrap up an old shoe!!!! LOL He would have been

in heaven! LOL I guess I just can't see his short-comings and just see my

cute little kid. One friend was actually crying tears because she thought I

was upset because Seth didn't *enjoy* his party. Well, he DID enjoy it

because I let him enjoy it by not trying to make it a *normal* party for him.

Is it me, or is it the world? Should I have made him participate? Should I

have held him down so we could sing Happy Birthday to him? Should I have

wrestled with him to open his gifts? He is going to a birthday party at a

horse farm next week, and I will make him participate. But this was HIS

party, and I wanted him to enjoy it. Was I wrong? All opinions welcome!!!!

LOL

Gail

[Guest guest]

Gail,

I think you are right. Our kids don't enjoy things the same as other kids.

Would that they did, but the reality is that they don't. So why shouldn't

they have some time to do what they want to do? And what better time than

their own B-day party! We have spent years trying to find the " right " toys

to get involved and the reality is that he would rather have the

ribbon or the paper that the package is wrapped in! LOL Now I look for " old

lady " bead necklaces for him to " play " with and I keep a bag of Easter grass

for emergencies! LOL You learn to adapt! LOL I think you did the right

thing for Seth at his party. He had fun and that's what it was all about!!

Terry

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/27/01 11:11:25 PM Eastern Standard Time,

Imaddenmom@... writes:

<< Gail,

I think you are right. Our kids don't enjoy things the same as other kids.

Would that they did, but the reality is that they don't. So why shouldn't

they have some time to do what they want to do? And what better time than

their own B-day party! We have spent years trying to find the " right " toys

to get involved and the reality is that he would rather have the

ribbon or the paper that the package is wrapped in! LOL Now I look for

" old

lady " bead necklaces for him to " play " with and I keep a bag of Easter grass

for emergencies! LOL You learn to adapt! LOL I think you did the right

thing for Seth at his party. He had fun and that's what it was all about!!

Terry >>

Thanks Terry,

I never know whether all my thinking is *bass ackwards* or if people just

don't understand that Seth doesn't do things in a normal way. LOL I guess I

have looked at everything this way for so long that I think it's normal!!

LOL Wow, that's a scary thought! LOL

Gail

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 01/27/2001 6:49:56 PM Central Standard Time,

smilinggail@... writes:

<< Well, he DID enjoy it

because I let him enjoy it by not trying to make it a *normal* party for

him.

Is it me, or is it the world? Should I have made him participate? Should

I

have held him down so we could sing Happy Birthday to him? Should I have

wrestled with him to open his gifts? He is going to a birthday party at a

horse farm next week, and I will make him participate. But this was HIS

party, and I wanted him to enjoy it. Was I wrong? All opinions welcome!!!!

>>

Gail, you were certainly not wrong in my opinion. You obviously accept Seth

for who he is and make his needs and happiness your first priority, even if

it doesn't look " normal " to the rest of the world. You are to be applauded

for this. It sounds like you're second guessing yourself because of the

reactions of others. Well, they don't know Seth like you do, and they don't

have to deal with him when he has a meltdown.

has a very difficult time at parties also, and I learned long ago not

to force her to participate with the rest of the kids if it is too much for

her. 's first " kid " party was when she turned 5. I invited several

of her friends with DS from our support group, all of whom she knew and all

of whom had been to our house to play with her before (but never all at

once!). Well, it was a disaster! She was miserable and barely even enjoyed

her cake, which she loves and is one of the few foods she actually asks. All

the other kids with DS had a good time. I was so depressed after that and

swore it would be a long time before I put either of us through that grief

again. As for other children's parties, I used to leave in tears because my

kid was the only one not having fun - she would scream, cry, pull hair, run

out of the room, say " home, " etc. Now I know that she can only tolerate

parties for a brief visit. Today she's invited to a roller skating birthday

party. I called the Mom and explained that doesn't roller skate and

can only come for a short time. I asked her when the cake and ice cream part

would be - a 1/2 hour - and that's the portion I am taking her to. That will

be more than enough.

Gail, you did the right thing for your son and his birthday was properly

celebrated. It sounds like a good time was had by all. What more can you

expect of yourself? Congratulations and Happy Birthday to Seth!

Maureen

[Guest guest]

Gail:

I think you did a fine job. It was *his* birthday and should not be a

traumatic time.

Last year Andy had his first party with kids from school. We went bowling.

Unfortunatley, we went in the afternoon, not realizing how busy it gets--we

usually go in the morning. So, before he had a complete meltdown he went to

hte car. When we came back to the house, he needed some calm down

time....so he came for the candles (they're like a magnet) and singing, but

left after that while the kids ate. That was fine with me...and they

handled it well.

The best part was Andy's joy at seeing all his friends at his house and in

his car. That was worth everything.

We purposefully asked the kids NOT to bring gifts, but if they wanted they

could give a gift to theDS association here in town. That way i didn't have

to deal with it. Some still brought a koosh ball along iwth $5, but that's

OK too.

Seth's birthday is his to enjoy at what ever level he's at. It's not worth

it for a kid to be traumatized so that OTHERS can feel like they celebrated.

Congratulations to you for caring and loving Seth just for who he is as he is.

hugs,

j

[Guest guest]

Gail, you are a good mommy.

Mom to 11

--- smilinggail@... wrote:

> In a message dated 1/27/01 12:32:26 PM Eastern

> Standard Time, Ltb3105@...

> writes:

>

> << Glad everything went okay! hehehe.....sounds

> like Seth did his own thing,

> which is fine.....more power to him!

> >>

>

> Thanks . Today I asked all my adult friends

> that were there how did

> they see Seth compared to the other kids. Big dose

> of reality hit when they

> all said he was the most severe. I guess I just

> don't see him the same as

> others see him. Or maybe I don't expect as much

> from him as others. I knew

> he wouldn't participate like the other kids, because

> he is at the gym 5 days

> a week and knows which equipment he likes and wanted

> to be on. *I* was

> pleased he didn't throw a fit and scream and cry

> because *school* came into

> his territory. I guess it all depends on how you

> look at it. *I* knew

> singing Happy Birthday would upset him with all the

> attention, but no one

> could understand that either. *I* knew gifts would

> be a waste of money and

> requested " NO GIFTS PLEASE " on the invitation. No

> one liked that idea either

> and all brought gifts, which he will not have

> anything to do with. I should

> have told everyone to just wrap up an old shoe!!!!

> LOL He would have been

> in heaven! LOL I guess I just can't see his

> short-comings and just see my

> cute little kid. One friend was actually crying

> tears because she thought I

> was upset because Seth didn't *enjoy* his party.

> Well, he DID enjoy it

> because I let him enjoy it by not trying to make it

> a *normal* party for him.

> Is it me, or is it the world? Should I have made

> him participate? Should I

> have held him down so we could sing Happy Birthday

> to him? Should I have

> wrestled with him to open his gifts? He is going to

> a birthday party at a

> horse farm next week, and I will make him

> participate. But this was HIS

> party, and I wanted him to enjoy it. Was I wrong?

> All opinions welcome!!!!

> LOL

> Gail

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/27/01 7:49:55 PM Eastern Standard Time,

smilinggail@... writes:

<<

Thanks . Today I asked all my adult friends that were there how did

they see Seth compared to the other kids. Big dose of reality hit when they

all said he was the most severe. I guess I just don't see him the same as

others see him. >>

It's so hard Gail. I never think about how " severe " Maddie is til someone

else either brings it to my attention, or I have the unfortunate experience

of seeing it in their eyes/expressions. Even on this great list where I am

most comfortable, reality sets in and Maddie seems unable to do what so many

others can. Sometimes it doesn't even phase me; other times, I feel bummed.

Just a day in the life I guess. {{{{{{{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}}}}}}}}} We

adore our kids, but this part of it sure is tough on the heart.

<<Well, he DID enjoy it

because I let him enjoy it by not trying to make it a *normal* party for him.

Is it me, or is it the world? Should I have made him participate? Should I

have held him down so we could sing Happy Birthday to him? Should I have

wrestled with him to open his gifts? He is going to a birthday party at a

horse farm next week, and I will make him participate. But this was HIS

party, and I wanted him to enjoy it. Was I wrong?>>

No way were you wrong Gail. Nor should you have to make any excuses to

anybody for however you celebrate Seth's birthday. I never make Maddie do

the birthday thing. Why would I choose to torture her? We've left it alone

and now, the time is finally arriving when she is ready. At her b-day, she

actually showed interest in opening a present, for the first time. I was

ecstatic!!! I believe if I had forced her, she'd be a LONG way away from

being able to deal with party celebrations. (Sides, experience has proven

that trying to *make* her do it proves disatrous) Plus, we have 30

grandchildren between Duff's family and mine. Poor Maddie would probably be

a complete wreck 24/7 if I made her do all the party celebrations....LOL

I think Seth's b-day sounded like the exact type celebration he wanted. And

heck, you should have done the old shoe thing. WE did for Maddie's 2nd

b-day.....the sitter did it as a joke. It brought just the right amount of

levity as I was on the verge of tears!! JK (that's my son's new slang

for just kidding) LOL

Donna

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/29/01 3:53:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, duffey48@...

writes:

<< It's so hard Gail. I never think about how " severe " Maddie is til

someone

else either brings it to my attention, or I have the unfortunate experience

of seeing it in their eyes/expressions. Even on this great list where I am

most comfortable, reality sets in and Maddie seems unable to do what so many

others can. Sometimes it doesn't even phase me; other times, I feel bummed.

Just a day in the life I guess. {{{{{{{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}}}}}}}}} We

adore our kids, but this part of it sure is tough on the heart.

>>

LOL Very strange thing Donna is that I can see ALL the faults and short

comings in my other four kids! LOL I don't think I want to see Seth the way

everyone else does, because then I might not be so pleased with him and life

would be hard if that happened. I pray I always see him as my sweet little

boy, no matter what he does, how he acts or what he can't do. Seth is Seth,

and I would never want a hair on his head changed, but I have been close to

re-arranging a few hairdo's on some other people! LOL

Gail

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/29/01 11:34:40 PM Eastern Standard Time,

smilinggail@... writes:

<< LOL Very strange thing Donna is that I can see ALL the faults and short

comings in my other four kids! LOL I don't think I want to see Seth the

way

everyone else does, because then I might not be so pleased with him and life

would be hard if that happened. I pray I always see him as my sweet little

boy, no matter what he does, how he acts or what he can't do. Seth is Seth,

and I would never want a hair on his head changed, but I have been close to

re-arranging a few hairdo's on some other people! LOL

Gail

>>

LOLOL Gail. Our oldest is quite the challenge (good kid....just a hot

head). We always say... " our youngest has autism and Down Syndrome and our

oldest has oldest child syndrome " . Gotta blame it on something,right? LOL

Sometimes I think the reason we feel differently about our special needs kids

is because we know how much it takes for them to accomplish a goal. And

sometimes it seems the rest of the world is against them. Sounds harsh, but

when I see how many people Maddie makes uncomfortable just because of who she

is, I feel like I could burst with emotion for her. Or knock a few people

out...LOL

My third son is about to be dx'd with ADHD, and my dh almost knocked one of

his teachers out last week....LOLOL We mother/father bears get mighty

defensive when it comes to our cubs!!!

Donna

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/30/01 9:02:04 PM Eastern Standard Time,

brink_00@... writes:

<< I was wondering if teaching the youngest who's 4 years old, a few sign

language words. What do y'all think of that?

>>

Great idea !!!!

Gail

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/30/01 1:14:38 PM Central Standard Time, duffey48@...

writes:

<< My third son is about to be dx'd with ADHD, >>

How old is he, Donna? How is he handling his challenges? How are you doing

with it? Not like your plate isn't full enough already! Hugs,

Maureen

[Guest guest]

That's good, I think all parents with a special child need to let the

child do whatever they want- under circumstances. I think that if you make

a child sit, or finish stuff that you want them to finish- I think that it

makes the child mad and frustrate. At least that's what I do when I watch

children I don't make them finish anything if they don't want to - but I

make them pick up the item after their done playing with it. Also I don't

know if you know anything about hearing losses but if you do please respond

to this. I watch a family who the dad and the two boys have a hearing loss.

I was wondering if teaching the youngest who's 4 years old, a few sign

language words. What do y'all think of that?

_________________________________________________________________

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/31/01 12:25:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, MRASMUS@...

writes:

<<

How old is he, Donna? How is he handling his challenges? How are you doing

with it? Not like your plate isn't full enough already! Hugs,

Maureen >>

n just turned 15 Maureen (he's right in the middle of our crew).

He's extremely bright, but school is proving to be very tough. For the

first time in his life, he failed a subject on his report card last semester.

Very hard on him. This semester, he'll do much better, thank goodness.

The school he is in is one of the most academically challenging ones in the

city, but all agree it's not too hard for him.....once we get a handle on his

dx. They will do an IQ test on him, but over the years, he's scored as high

as a 97 on his CAT tests (with 100 being the highest). But the poor kid is

just so all over the place. We bought him a day planner to try and organize

him and he lost it his first day... He's impulsive and unfocussed,

extremely enthusiastic and very very intellectually curious. An all around

GREAT kid. Testing will begin on Friday, so his Dad and I are happy they

are moving quickly on this. He only just started this school in September

and they picked up on it right away. Over the years, we knew there were

issues, but it never effected his grades in elementary school (he got

honors). His cousin/best friend who lives across the street has ADHD and it

runs like wild fire in Duff's family. We're hoping to start some behavior

modification at school (we already do some at home----things like timing his

homework, breaking down tasks into small steps, being VERY VERY patient with

him) as soon as we're done with the testing. We think they'll be

cooperative. As far as drugs go, he's nervous about taking them (he's a

little bit of a hypochondriac and drugs terrify him...LOL), but we've

discussed it and will talk more with the psych, but we haven't made any

decisions yet. We're thinking we'll see how the BM goes first. Although,

it's crucial that we don't lose his confidence. He's got great

spirit----that's what Duff almost decked the science teacher over. Teacher

told us he's trying to save n from himself and reel him in. Duff

almost punched him; told him we happen to like n just the way he is,

that he doesn't need saving, and we DO NOT want his spirit broken. UGH!!!!

One step at a time, right guys???

Maureen, thanks for asking!!!!! {{{{{{{{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}}}}}}}] to .

Donna

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/31/01 8:51:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, duffey48@...

writes:

<< Teacher

told us he's trying to save n from himself and reel him in. Duff

almost punched him; told him we happen to like n just the way he is,

that he doesn't need saving, and we DO NOT want his spirit broken.

UGH!!!!

One step at a time, right guys???

Maureen, thanks for asking!!!!! {{{{{{{{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}}}}}}}] to .

Donna >>

GOOOOOO Duff!!!!! Why are the educators so intent on breaking a kids

spirit? It's the spirited ones that change the world! I think if I were a

teacher, I would love to have a class full of kids like n. Smart,

happy, good, eager to learn and I am sure very polite. One of the saddest

sights there is is, is to look into the eyes of a child whose spirit has been

broken. :-( Keep protecting him Donna and don't let that happen to him.

Gail

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/31/01 11:12:19 AM Eastern Standard Time,

smilinggail@... writes:

<< Why are the educators so intent on breaking a kids

spirit? It's the spirited ones that change the world! I think if I were a

teacher, I would love to have a class full of kids like n. Smart,

happy, good, eager to learn and I am sure very polite. >>

I know Gail. It's infuriating. The same day that Duff was down at the Prep

(Bren's school) telling off his science teacher, two other teachers

approached him telling him what a gem n is. That he is so bright and

curious and that his attitude lifts the entire class!!! AND how grateful

they are to have the *experience of n*.

Donna

[Guest guest]

Hi ,I taught my other grandkids some basic

signs before they could talk much such as more,drink

,eat, all done,happy and it helped them to communicate

at a younger age.You are a great sitter to do this for

the kids. Carole

--- smilinggail@... wrote:

> In a message dated 1/30/01 9:02:04 PM Eastern

> Standard Time,

> brink_00@... writes:

>

> << I was wondering if teaching the youngest who's 4

> years old, a few sign

> language words. What do y'all think of that?

>

> >>

> Great idea !!!!

> Gail

>

__________________________________________________

Get personalized email addresses from - only $35

a year! http://personal.mail./

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/1/01 2:27:30 AM Eastern Standard Time,

smilinggail@... writes:

<< In a message dated 1/30/01 9:02:04 PM Eastern Standard Time,

brink_00@... writes:

<< I was wondering if teaching the youngest who's 4 years old, a few sign

language words. What do y'all think of that?

>>

Great idea !!!!

Gail >>

Okay!!!!!!!! I did not write this yesterday, and I just got this this

morning. What is going on with the posts! Is this happening to everyone

else? Did everyone switch to the thing? This is confusing to miss

posts or to write them and see them 2 days later.

Gail

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/1/01 8:53:33 AM Eastern Standard Time,

smilinggail@... writes:

<< Okay!!!!!!!! I did not write this yesterday, and I just got this this

morning. What is going on with the posts! Is this happening to everyone

else? Did everyone switch to the thing? This is confusing to miss

posts or to write them and see them 2 days later.

Gail >>

Gail,

Yes. Sometimes, I post and it doesn't show up for days. I posted

recently even to the DS/listserv and it never came. Go figure.

Donna

[Guest guest]

i have the , everything IM, emails, chat etc,

downloaded and i still get repeats, before i kept

getting notices of messages etc not sent or

something, at our fam. email. so i just downloaded etc

thje stuff. shawna.

--- duffey48@... wrote:

> In a message dated 2/1/01 8:53:33 AM Eastern

> Standard Time,

> smilinggail@... writes:

>

> << Okay!!!!!!!! I did not write this yesterday, and

> I just got this this

> morning. What is going on with the posts! Is

> this happening to everyone

> else? Did everyone switch to the thing?

> This is confusing to miss

> posts or to write them and see them 2 days later.

> Gail >>

>

> Gail,

> Yes. Sometimes, I post and it doesn't show up for

> days. I posted

> recently even to the DS/listserv and it never came.

> Go figure.

> Donna

>

>

[Guest guest]

Forget the 'poundage' and make the goal to fit into those pants. You can be

heavier, with more muscle and less fat and fit into smaller clothes. Muscle

is more dense than fat.

Su the Hobbit

Reality check

> I finally had my body fat checked this morning via caliper reading by a

> certified trainer at the Y. I was expecting a higher number than she

> came up with - 28.9% is what I was told, I was fully prepared to hear

> something more in the 33-36 range.

>

> So now I'm at work and I've done the math (thanks for the excel

> file!) - and I may have to re-think my long term goals. For this

> challenge my goal is losing 10-15 pounds of fat and gaining 5 pounds of

> muscle, which seems do-able. BUT in the long run, I've had this idea

> hovering in the back of my mind that I'd end up somewhere around 145,

> which is what I weighed the one time in my adult life when I wore a size

> 7. But it looks to me like the only way I could drop that low without

> actually LOSING lean mass would be to drop my BF% way lower than I want

> to - like 11% or something. Don't get me wrong, I think that looks great

> on the women who choose to attain it, but it's just not where I want to

> be.

>

> Am I missing something? Or is this even relevant? Maybe I should just

> quit obsessing over the numbers. I'm pretty pleased about my 128+ pounds

> of lean mass...and I'd be perfectly happy to be a fit, healthy 160-pound

> she-hulk.

>

> in ID

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yeah, that's good advice. I'm goofy with numbers like that...I don't

usually get emotionally involved with them (i.e. if the number on the

scale goes up I don't get upset) but part of my brain just likes to fuss

with the math. As if you could truly predict " okay, this week I'm going

to lose x pounds " ...that's just a setup for craziness. Thanks, Su.

Su wrote:

> Forget the 'poundage' and make the goal to fit into those pants. You

> can be

> heavier, with more muscle and less fat and fit into smaller clothes.

> Muscle

> is more dense than fat.

>

> Su the Hobbit

>

>

> Reality check

>

>

> > I finally had my body fat checked this morning via caliper reading by a

> > certified trainer at the Y. I was expecting a higher number than she

> > came up with - 28.9% is what I was told, I was fully prepared to hear

> > something more in the 33-36 range.

> >

> > So now I'm at work and I've done the math (thanks for the excel

> > file!) - and I may have to re-think my long term goals. For this

> > challenge my goal is losing 10-15 pounds of fat and gaining 5 pounds of

> > muscle, which seems do-able. BUT in the long run, I've had this idea

> > hovering in the back of my mind that I'd end up somewhere around 145,

> > which is what I weighed the one time in my adult life when I wore a size

> > 7. But it looks to me like the only way I could drop that low without

> > actually LOSING lean mass would be to drop my BF% way lower than I want

> > to - like 11% or something. Don't get me wrong, I think that looks great

> > on the women who choose to attain it, but it's just not where I want to

> > be.

> >

> > Am I missing something? Or is this even relevant? Maybe I should just

> > quit obsessing over the numbers. I'm pretty pleased about my 128+ pounds

> > of lean mass...and I'd be perfectly happy to be a fit, healthy 160-pound

> > she-hulk.

> >

> > in ID

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Her number could still be a little off. Caliper readings are only estimates and

they depend on the tester's experience. The formulas become much more accurate

as your percentage of body fat gets lower. In the beginning, the numbers will

always be a little squirrelly.

Don't stress over the lean mass thing. Lean mass includes water. If you're at

all bloated you could lose several pounds of lean mass during a challenge. It

doesn't mean that you're losing muscle.

You're right, you should probably quit obsessing over the numbers. Just

concentrate on eating well and training hard. Actually doing it is more

important than analyzing it to death. :-)

Reality check

I finally had my body fat checked this morning via caliper reading by a

certified trainer at the Y. I was expecting a higher number than she

came up with - 28.9% is what I was told, I was fully prepared to hear

something more in the 33-36 range.

So now I'm at work and I've done the math (thanks for the excel

file!) - and I may have to re-think my long term goals. For this

challenge my goal is losing 10-15 pounds of fat and gaining 5 pounds of

muscle, which seems do-able. BUT in the long run, I've had this idea

hovering in the back of my mind that I'd end up somewhere around 145,

which is what I weighed the one time in my adult life when I wore a size

7. But it looks to me like the only way I could drop that low without

actually LOSING lean mass would be to drop my BF% way lower than I want

to - like 11% or something. Don't get me wrong, I think that looks great

on the women who choose to attain it, but it's just not where I want to be.

Am I missing something? Or is this even relevant? Maybe I should just

quit obsessing over the numbers. I'm pretty pleased about my 128+ pounds

of lean mass...and I'd be perfectly happy to be a fit, healthy 160-pound

she-hulk.

in ID

[Guest guest]

OK. Stepping away from the math.

Eating well and training hard are more fun anyway.

:-D

Skwigg wrote:

> Her number could still be a little off. Caliper readings are only

> estimates and they depend on the tester's experience. The formulas

> become much more accurate as your percentage of body fat gets lower.

> In the beginning, the numbers will always be a little squirrelly.

>

> Don't stress over the lean mass thing. Lean mass includes water. If

> you're at all bloated you could lose several pounds of lean mass

> during a challenge. It doesn't mean that you're losing muscle.

>

> You're right, you should probably quit obsessing over the numbers.

> Just concentrate on eating well and training hard. Actually doing it

> is more important than analyzing it to death. :-)

>

>

>

> Reality check

>

>

> I finally had my body fat checked this morning via caliper reading by a

> certified trainer at the Y. I was expecting a higher number than she

> came up with - 28.9% is what I was told, I was fully prepared to hear

> something more in the 33-36 range.

>

> So now I'm at work and I've done the math (thanks for the excel

> file!) - and I may have to re-think my long term goals. For this

> challenge my goal is losing 10-15 pounds of fat and gaining 5 pounds of

> muscle, which seems do-able. BUT in the long run, I've had this idea

> hovering in the back of my mind that I'd end up somewhere around 145,

> which is what I weighed the one time in my adult life when I wore a

> size

> 7. But it looks to me like the only way I could drop that low without

> actually LOSING lean mass would be to drop my BF% way lower than I want

> to - like 11% or something. Don't get me wrong, I think that looks

> great

> on the women who choose to attain it, but it's just not where I want

> to be.

>

> Am I missing something? Or is this even relevant? Maybe I should just

> quit obsessing over the numbers. I'm pretty pleased about my 128+

> pounds

> of lean mass...and I'd be perfectly happy to be a fit, healthy

> 160-pound

> she-hulk.

>

> in ID

>

>

>