Guest guest Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 > > Hi Knotweed, > > I belong to the Bartonella group (bartonella). thanks, guess I have to check out that group > I don't know if I have Bart but I generally assume to have the full cocktail of pathogens. I guess that is the safest way of dealing with tick infections; but the trouble is that you can't treat everything (at the same time), at least not with drugs or herbs. So I started with the bug that I am sure of, Borrelia. > If I recall correctly, you have not been a supporter of rife for treatment. However, many people seem to see a reduction of symptoms using frequency therapy. I'm in Europe and rife is pretty uncommon here. We have bioresonance which is popular among alternative treatments (it is not a DIY procedure), and loosely based on similar ideas. The track record from the people I have talked to or emailed with is not good. I don't know anyone in my country who used Rife. I accept there might be something going on with Rife because many people report 'herx' reactions. It is just that the official explanations are scientifically shaky at least (same for our EU 'bioresonance' or 'biophotons / Bionic 880' treatments). > Someone sent me the information quoted below and it does appear from many people's experience that as one pathogen is knocked down, another becomes dominant, similar to the alpha males and females in nature: yes, that's interesting. I have heard it from people using very different types of treatment. I wonder if it really works like that, or if people get this impression because the treatments are not very effective (or only temporary effective). One of the problems with Lyme (Borrelia) is that symptoms can vary strongly anyway. So one could easily get the impression that 'something has changed' after days or weeks, giving the impression that maybe one bug is gone and the next one is presenting itself? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 I just finished reading Rosner's book on Lyme and Rife. It was written in 2004 and so is somewhat outdated. However, some of his theory about the layers of the disease make sense. Untreated, symptoms " disappear " and new ones emerge - this is not because the bugs are gone from those areas but that they have settled in. Thus, many using rife or salt/c treatment describe how the symptoms appear in reverse order (and sometimes new ones emerge) as treatment hits spirochetes and emerging cysts, knocking back the load. This concept is suggested with other chronic illnesses as well. I have not used a rife machine that requires the programming of a specific frequency. The machines I have used sweep through a range of frequencies. I believe this has caused some improvement but now I have plateaued. Thus I am exploring whether a stronger machine such as a coil might be of value. This is a lengthy and laborious process of choosing one frequency at a time, requiring a great deal of patience. Some people will treat with one frequency followed by another either that same day or perhaps a different day or maybe wait until one pathogen appears knocked back (judging by a reduction or elimination of herx/die-off symptoms) before moving on to the next. Someone recently sent me this info: lyme 432 bart 832 myco 690 babesia 570 anaplasma 387 erlichia 395 epstein barr virus 880 xmrv 448 They wrote (sorry if I already posted this): " they do live in the hierarchy order I wrote above. When lyme/bart is reduced if you have myco, you'll start getting new myco symptoms as it emerges. Once myco is reduced, you'll get babesia symptoms, so with each emergence it takes some time to get that bug beaten back. " deb > > One of the problems with Lyme (Borrelia) is that symptoms can vary strongly anyway. So one could easily get the impression that 'something has changed' after days or weeks, giving the impression that maybe one bug is gone and the next one is presenting itself? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 > > Thus, many using rife or salt/c treatment describe how the symptoms appear in reverse order (and sometimes new ones emerge) as treatment hits spirochetes and emerging cysts, knocking back the load. This concept is suggested with other chronic illnesses as well. I have heard this concept from several traditional / alternative healing theories. My homoeopathic doc was also very outspoken about this: the oldest problems (and those at the outside of the body, e.g. skin) will take the longest to disappear, the whole disease process is reversed in action and in time (I tried homoeopathy for some time, without any result). Maybe some of this has to do with quorum sensing. QS is important for virulence (pathogenicity) of Borrelia and several other coinfections. The bugs coordinate their actions, and can suppress immune function. The 'language' that Borrelia uses probably has effect on some of the other bugs too, they don't just talk among themselves. I can imagine that once you remove Bb, the Bartonella (for example) can no longer hide and the immune system starts attacking it, causing new symptoms (herxes). Or maybe they try to stay out of each others way? Interesting stuff .... > Some people will treat with one frequency followed by another either that same day or perhaps a different day or maybe wait until one pathogen appears knocked back (judging by a reduction or elimination of herx/die-off symptoms) before moving on to the next. Someone recently sent me this info: > > lyme 432 > bart 832 > myco 690 > babesia 570 > anaplasma 387 > erlichia 395 > epstein barr virus 880 > xmrv 448 > > They wrote (sorry if I already posted this): > " they do live in the hierarchy order I wrote above. When lyme/bart is reduced if you have myco, you'll start getting new myco symptoms as it emerges. Once myco is reduced, you'll get babesia symptoms, so with each emergence it takes some time to get that bug beaten back. " I really have to wonder where all this knowledge comes from; I don't think you could ever 'test' this theory ... I have seen so many different frequencies for some bugs that it seems arbitrary, and often there are many theories added about what can influence the frequency. A bit too much trial-and-error for me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 I have heard about Quorum Sensing and there is a very interesting youtube video that explains it (for those who haven't seen it). There is much discussion about how pathogens come together in biofilm colonies and share genetic information. One way is via conjugation, when two bacteria, whether the same species or different, connect to each other via hollow tube through which genetic information (RNA) is passed. This is one mechanism to explain how antibiotic resistance spreads. Biofilm seems to be a popular concept these days and there are protocols involving systemic enzymes and heavy metal chelators so that treatments can reach deeper into the colonies. Homeopathy is one of many treatment modalities that supposedly can bring about this reversal of symptoms. Many describe it as peeling away the layers of the onion, first reaching those bugs that are most readily available, such as in the skin or bloodstream. The hardest to reach are obviously those deepest in the tissues and bone. With respect to rife machines, most lack the power to go that deep. It has been proven that the EMFs from the coil will pass through the entire body, thus penetrating the deepest areas. People who feel fairly well find they get tremendous herxes from the coil. This is rather disconcerting news because it shows that the bugs remain despite supposedly successful treatments (for example, antibiotic use that appears to work until patient goes off and then relapses with a vengeance). Die-hard coil enthusiasts will continue for years even when symptoms are no longer present because they want to be sure to keep the numbers down and not relapse down the road. deb > > > > Thus, many using rife or salt/c treatment describe how the symptoms appear in reverse order (and sometimes new ones emerge) as treatment hits spirochetes and emerging cysts, knocking back the load. This concept is suggested with other chronic illnesses as well. > > I have heard this concept from several traditional / alternative healing theories. My homoeopathic doc was also very outspoken about this: the oldest problems (and those at the outside of the body, e.g. skin) will take the longest to disappear, the whole disease process is reversed in action and in time (I tried homoeopathy for some time, without any result). > > Maybe some of this has to do with quorum sensing. QS is important for virulence (pathogenicity) of Borrelia and several other coinfections. The bugs coordinate their actions, and can suppress immune function. The 'language' that Borrelia uses probably has effect on some of the other bugs too, they don't just talk among themselves. > I can imagine that once you remove Bb, the Bartonella (for example) can no longer hide and the immune system starts attacking it, causing new symptoms (herxes). Or maybe they try to stay out of each others way? Interesting stuff .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 > > People who feel fairly well find they get tremendous herxes from the coil. This is rather disconcerting news because it shows that the bugs remain despite supposedly successful treatments (for example, antibiotic use that appears to work until patient goes off and then relapses with a vengeance). Die-hard coil enthusiasts will continue for years even when symptoms are no longer present because they want to be sure to keep the numbers down and not relapse down the road. Yes, I have heard the same about Rife, and of course to some extent you can see this with other treatments as well. This suggests to me that the whole theory of herxing and/or what we are 'treating' is wrong. Maybe the treatments don't work at all and herxing is just a side effect, not related to killing the bugs (I'm pretty sure by now that 'herxing' is NOT caused by massive die-off of Borrelias). Maybe some people 'herx' even when the bugs are already gone. Or maybe Borrelia isn't the real problem (it could still be one of the initial causes then). We need new insights here, and I doubt they are going to come from Rifing because its foundations are too shaky to do any real research. Because of this I'm interested in the experiments of Montagnier that are loosely related, but have a stronger scientific foundation. He has some good ideas about testing his theory and using it for treatment; we should know within a few years if this is another dead end or a promising new approach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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