Guest guest Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 > > Knotweed, how do they see spirochetes???????????? check a small drop of blood with a darkfield microscope. This is not an official Bb diagnosis, because you can't be sure the spirochetes are Borrelia by just looking at them. You would need fluorescent antibodies to prove that (and even then, identification is about as reliable as an test) However, in combination with a positive IgM + IgG Borrelia Westernblot, the best explanation is that the visible spirochetes are Borrelia. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 Knotweed, Obviously we don't have the microscope and equipment for this, can we ask our doctor to do this test? I just find it interesting that you can see the cetes, shouldn't that be an indication of lyme? On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 10:58 AM, knot_weed <tek0nik@...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Knotweed, how do they see spirochetes???????????? > > check a small drop of blood with a darkfield microscope. This is not an > official Bb diagnosis, because you can't be sure the spirochetes are > Borrelia by just looking at them. You would need fluorescent antibodies to > prove that (and even then, identification is about as reliable as an > test) > > However, in combination with a positive IgM + IgG Borrelia Westernblot, the > best explanation is that the visible spirochetes are Borrelia. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 Most MDs do not have darkfield equipment for live blood analysis. Alternative practitioners may have it. Evaluation of blood takes place over a period of 24 hours. As time passes after initial finger stick and placement on a slide, more and more bacteria can appear in the blood. Not sure if this is because intracellular pathogens (for example) leave the red cells and become more visible. It can be frightening to watch, especially if it's your own blood. I haven't done it myself but saw a video of my friend's blood under darkfield. Unless someone is properly trained, it is hard to tell one species from another. Also, bacteria in the blood is common for everyone and most healthy people feel perfectly fine. That's the purpose of the immune system - to kill pathogens as they are discovered. The problem with borrelia spirochetes is that they cloak themselves with a protein coat containing the body's own antigens and thus are not recognized as foreign. When a treatment is effective and spirochetes are killed, their foreign antigens become recognizable and the immune system responds, creating inflammation and herx symptoms. deb > > > > > > > > Knotweed, how do they see spirochetes???????????? > > > > check a small drop of blood with a darkfield microscope. This is not an > > official Bb diagnosis, because you can't be sure the spirochetes are > > Borrelia by just looking at them. You would need fluorescent antibodies to > > prove that (and even then, identification is about as reliable as an > > test) > > > > However, in combination with a positive IgM + IgG Borrelia Westernblot, the > > best explanation is that the visible spirochetes are Borrelia. > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 Great explanation-----Thanks!! On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 12:00 PM, Deb57 <ds@...> wrote: > > > Most MDs do not have darkfield equipment for live blood analysis. > Alternative practitioners may have it. Evaluation of blood takes place over > a period of 24 hours. As time passes after initial finger stick and > placement on a slide, more and more bacteria can appear in the blood. Not > sure if this is because intracellular pathogens (for example) leave the red > cells and become more visible. It can be frightening to watch, especially if > it's your own blood. I haven't done it myself but saw a video of my friend's > blood under darkfield. > > Unless someone is properly trained, it is hard to tell one species from > another. > > Also, bacteria in the blood is common for everyone and most healthy people > feel perfectly fine. That's the purpose of the immune system - to kill > pathogens as they are discovered. The problem with borrelia spirochetes is > that they cloak themselves with a protein coat containing the body's own > antigens and thus are not recognized as foreign. > > When a treatment is effective and spirochetes are killed, their foreign > antigens become recognizable and the immune system responds, creating > inflammation and herx symptoms. > > deb > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Knotweed, how do they see spirochetes???????????? > > > > > > check a small drop of blood with a darkfield microscope. This is not an > > > official Bb diagnosis, because you can't be sure the spirochetes are > > > Borrelia by just looking at them. You would need fluorescent antibodies > to > > > prove that (and even then, identification is about as reliable as an > > > > test) > > > > > > However, in combination with a positive IgM + IgG Borrelia Westernblot, > the > > > best explanation is that the visible spirochetes are Borrelia. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 > > Knotweed, > Obviously we don't have the microscope and equipment for this, can we ask > our doctor to do this test? usually not, most doctors no longer use microscopes in the First World; but in Africa or parts of Asia it still is standard equipment .... Microscopes require experienced lab technicians, preparing and viewing the sample takes time (= money), and the outcome is often 'messy'. Modern doctors prefer a simple, 'digital' test like an : take a blood sample, put it in a machine and with a push of a button the machine says 'YES' or 'NO'; no discussion possible. Of course, reality usually isn't just black or white, but that is how they want to see things. There are alternative practitioners who use darkfield microscope technology, e.g. for 'blood microscopy' (= looking at blood with a darkfield microscope; often they will take pictures or a movie of your own blood for you). It has a bad rap because some docs used this to scare patients and sell them all kinds of expensive supplements etc. for a supposed infection. But there is nothing wrong with the technology itself. > I just find it interesting that you can see the cetes, shouldn't that be an > indication of lyme? normally you shouldn't have chetes in the blood, except if you have a dental infection or vigorously brushed your teeth - some of the bacteria that cause tooth decay are also spirochetes, e.g. treponema denticola. Because you don't know which chete it is, no doctor is going to accept it as 'evidence'. With a normal optical microscope, most chetes look very similar. They are difficult to see anyway, because they are extremely thin, about the limit of what an optical microscope can show. At higher resolution you would be able to see differences e.g. between Borrelia and Treponema. I think microscopes are great and docters should start using them again, especially with all these emerging tick coinfections. I'd rather trust my eyes than an test. There are some new technologies emerging that could improve resolution of normal optical microscopes with a factor of 5-10x, which would be superb for Borrelia and coinfection checks with a microscope. Seeing is believing! There is also a lot of development in simple gadgets that you attach to your iPhone4 camera, and that cost e.g. $20. Put in a tiny drop of blood and they will take a picture of the blood cells, automatically analyse it for certain infections like malaria, mail it to your doctor for a second opinion, link to internet sites for more info about treatment etc. Just imagine we could do that for Borrelia and coinfections (too difficult now, but maybe within 5 years or so ....). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 > > As time passes after initial finger stick and placement on a slide, more and more bacteria can appear in the blood. Not sure if this is because intracellular pathogens (for example) leave the red cells and become more visible. there are several other explanations, e.g.: - the new bacteria may be caused by contamination of the sample (it is almost impossible to do this fully sterile in such a setting). Contamination with spirochetes is unlikely, but some other bacteria and fungi like Candida can form structures that look a bit similar - the blood cells themselves decay due to evaporation of sample fluid, pressure from the microscope slide, loss of energy (they need a small amount of chemical energy to survivce) etc. When red blood cells decay they get 'spikes', and ultimately these can form 'pseudospirochetes' that break loose from the blood cell and look just like normal spirochetes to the average viewer. They are about the same size and can rotate/move for some time as if they are 'alive'. > Unless someone is properly trained, it is hard to tell one species from another. definitely. check the online courses for hematology, it all looks veyr similar to me > Also, bacteria in the blood is common for everyone but spirochetes are not common ... > The problem with borrelia spirochetes is that they cloak themselves with a protein coat containing the body's own antigens and thus are not recognized as foreign. this probably happens, but what normally happens is that they use their own coat which they change every few weeks (by changing VlsE, OspC and other proteins). The immune system needs 3 weeks at least to catch up with the changes, so it is alway 'behind the curve'. Some of the new coats may accidentally look very much like our own body tissue. In this case the immune system may fail to identify the Borrelia as 'foreign' or if it does recognize it, a cross-reaction may occur that also damages the body cells. > When a treatment is effective and spirochetes are killed, their foreign antigens become recognizable and the immune system responds, creating inflammation and herx symptoms. yes, that is probably a major factor for herxing. However, even without treatment spirochetes die and get broken down; so the immune system should be able to recognize them ... it just takes more time. This probably explains why some people only get a positive after they have first done a short ABX course: the ABX kill some Bb's, this produces more antigens and this causes sufficient immune reaction to be detected with the test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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