Re: Igenex- positive 5 rings

[Guest guest]

>

> I'm wondering since i've heard that Lyme can never be completely erradicated,

how does one know if the 5 rings in the Igenex test means you need to get

TREATED for Lyme or not? What I mean is he had Lyme 3x before over the past

almost 20 yrs. Now can't think clearly at all, extreme sound sensitivity, early

morning awakening, 3 hr naps & sleeping through the nite afterwards, etc. But

20GM vit C helps a lot. But not completely at all. From the previous lyme, do

the 5 rings always show as positive on the Igenex test for the rest of your life

(in general, not as a rule)??? (We're wondering, possibly if he has some OTHER

health problem, unknown to us...) Antibiotics are serious business & we'd like

to be sure.

nothing is sure with Lyme ... but I can give you some directions.

If the IgeneX test (Western Blot) has specific Borrelia bands for BOTH IgM and

IgG, or if the bands change between tests (even if they are only IgG bands) it

is likely that he has active infection and needs treatment.

When there are only specific IgG bands for Borrelia, and if these are more or

less 'stable' over the years, this COULD be just an 'immunologic scar' because

IgG antibodies can remain for years (or maybe for life) even if the infection is

gone. I think in general most of the bands disappear over the years with the

right treatment; this probably depends on the individual, the Borrelia

subspecies and other factors that we don't know about.

He could have had the same infection for a long time, and have symptoms return

after some time because of inadequate treatment.

I don't think you can complete get rid of Borrelia if you have chronic infection

(lyme turns chronic after about 1/2 to 2 years if not treated). But you don't

need to get rid of Borrelia to get rid of the lyme disease, some people with

chronic lyme have seen huge improvement with the right treatment. But I guess

those are a small minority ...

The same applies to many other infections, usually some bugs remain in the body

when the disease is already gone, but they no longer pose a threat (unless the

immune system breaks down for another reason).

The symptoms you mention above could be from Lyme, but if those are the ONLY

symptoms I would be careful in concluding that it IS Lyme, it could be something

else. That is were the question of active or past infection becomes important.

Obviously you can have Borrelia infection and still suffer from something else

....

I don't think there is serious risk in using longterm oral ABX, providing the

patient is monitored by a docter and using probiotics, liver support etc. The

major risk with ABX treatment is complications from IV treatment (mostly with

PICC / Central IV lines). I'm not a fan of IV treatment, except for acute

neurologic cases. Usually the right oral ABX in sufficient dose works just as

well.

[Guest guest]

The western blot test does not measure whether or not you have an

active disease. It only measures the presence of antibodies in your

blood. These antibodies can linger long after the disease is gone.

That is part of why the test is so inaccurate.

[Guest guest]

>

> These antibodies can linger long after the disease is gone.

Yes, but that usually does NOT apply to IgM antibodies in the Western blot.

Those are normally assumed to indicate active (ongoing) infection, because IgM

antibodies disappear from the blood after a month or so if the infection is

gone.

Just to be sure: infection is not the same as disease.

[Guest guest]

Getting a CD-57 can help measure how sick a person is from active illness.

~dory

[Guest guest]

I thought the Igenex was the " gold standard " for diagnosing Lyme. BUT maybe

I have that impression only because it's the best test that's available

now?? His doctor says she will monitor the CD57 levels as he goes thru his

ABX (that we expect he'll start this Monday). His CD57 is now 206 (ref range

of 60-360). She wants him over 250 & says between 60-100 is a Lyme relapse.

Does that sound reasonable? Thanks so much for all your help so far!

[Guest guest]

Knotweed,

Can you please explain the following statement: " Just to be sure: infection is

not the same as disease. " Thank you.

> >

> > These antibodies can linger long after the disease is gone.

>

> Yes, but that usually does NOT apply to IgM antibodies in the Western blot.

Those are normally assumed to indicate active (ongoing) infection, because IgM

antibodies disappear from the blood after a month or so if the infection is

gone.

>

> Just to be sure: infection is not the same as disease.

>

[Guest guest]

>

> Can you please explain the following statement: " Just to be sure: infection

is not the same as disease. "

You can be infected and not have any disease symptoms, e.g. because the immune

system keeps the infection under control, or because the bugs don't cause any

trouble. This applies to almost any infection, including Borrelia / LD. In

general, I would NOT recommend to treat an infection when there are no matching

symptoms.

That being said, in case of Borrelia there is something to be said for treating

infection (even without any symptoms present), instead of treating disease

(infection + symptoms), because we know that Borrelia can cause serious trouble

after keeping quiet for a long time. But where to draw the line is

scientifically/medically a tough issue.

A related issue is that if you are going to test with extreme sensitivity (which

we cannot do yet for most infections including Bb), you will probably find that

most people have a large number of different infections present; and the

difference between 'ill' and 'healthy' people will prove to be relatively small

or even non-existent in many cases. It is simply impossible to treat every

infection that is present.

[Guest guest]

>

> I thought the Igenex was the " gold standard " for diagnosing Lyme. BUT maybe

> I have that impression only because it's the best test that's available

> now??

A good Western Blot like those from IgeneX in the US is probably the best

general Lymetest that is generally available. But every serologic test (e.g.

, Western Blot and others) has its limitations, because you are detecting

the action of the immune system, and not the infection itself.

Sometimes other tests like Borrelia PCR can be more valuable, or provide

additional info. But in the US it seems PCR testing is in low esteem with the

IDSA ducks, probably because they don't hold much patents for Borrelia PCR ...

or because it sometimes finds infections that are not detected with their Lyme

tests.