herx

[Guest guest]

That is too funny that you ask that, because my friend was just

asking me if all that shaking, bothers me. She told me, it almost

looks like you have Parkinson's disease. I shake alot. My hands and

sometimes my whole body feels like it's shaking. I only do it when I

am herxing. Just a little bit at other times. Hang in there and

keep the prayers going!

[Guest guest]

On or about Friday, December 12, 2003 7:31 PM [GMT+1=CET],

Sweetiejh21@... <Sweetiejh21@...> sprinkled letters onto the page,

saying:

> Hi I hope everyone is well. I was just wondering if anyone ever

> experienced

> shaking when they were having a herx reaction to their meds? thanks

>

> Jill

I have uncontrollable 'shivering' though my mum has shaking hands with hers.

Kezzi. . .

[Guest guest]

Jill,

I am on antibiotics right now for sinus infection and I do have Lyme. I

am right now herxing...it is hard to get use to again because I have been

doing pretty good. But I am herxing right now and my biggest problem is

shaking. It also doesn't help that it is that time of the month. I've

had shakes often but I had it mostly under control..I have had many

doctors who wanted to diagnose me with Parkinson lately....

Cyntha Landon

Myesha, Celeste and also with Lyme

[Guest guest]

Penni or anyone else who can answer, I know everyone is different and will react

differently but, on an average how long does herxing last? I've been sick off

and on since July. The dr. finally put me on rochephin 15 days ago and each day

is worse than the day before with new symptoms each day. Anger and depression is

really starting to set in. It's so hard because it is so very tempting to ask to

switch medicine for fear that this isn't working. Lymes has already caused

damage to my heart. I am afraid of it doing more damage to my heart ( last night

I thought I was going to have a heart attack last night, my heart was racing so

fast (134bpm while laying down) or start doing damage to other things) When do

you know the meds that you are on aren't working?

Penni Morton <penni49@...> wrote:, Do you mind me asking who

your insurance company is, because Mine wouldn't pay for more than 6 weeks of

IV.

This is only my opinion, but if you're getting worse on Rocephin then you are

probably experiencing a Herxheimer. This is a good sign, you will get worse

before you get better. That was my experience, anyway. If it was me I would

stay on the IV until I start to feel better, and then look for alternative forms

of treatment

The main objective is to maintain your health, and you can't rely on your DR to

tell you what that will be. Different things work for different people.

I did read that the longer it takes someone to Herx the deeper the Lyme is in

your system. It sounds like you've had it for a long time? Penni

[Guest guest]

Being I'm new to this site, there are alot of words and drug stuff I don't

understand. Could someone do a quick explantion of Herxheimer. Thanks. My

symptoms are changing so quickly. Last nite, for the first time, I got woken up

with very sharp pains in both my calf muscles. That really hurt and I have a

very high pain tolerance. Didn't last long, maybe 10 minutes and it was over and

I went back to sleep. Insomnia though is a real problem. I'm up alot during th

night...just can't sleep. ? Thanks, Jeri

[ ] HERX

, Do you mind me asking who your insurance company is, because Mine

wouldn't pay for more than 6 weeks of IV.

This is only my opinion, but if you're getting worse on Rocephin then you are

probably experiencing a Herxheimer. This is a good sign, you will get worse

before you get better. That was my experience, anyway. If it was me I would

stay on the IV until I start to feel better, and then look for alternative forms

of treatment

The main objective is to maintain your health, and you can't rely on your DR to

tell you what that will be. Different things work for different people.

I did read that the longer it takes someone to Herx the deeper the Lyme is in

your system. It sounds like you've had it for a long time? Penni

[Guest guest]

Penni,

My insurance co only covered the Rocephin for 6 weeks also.. I

am now getting the Rocephin right from Roche Pharmacuticals. I'm now

on my 5th month.. I've heard that most Herxes were pretty quick

coming on. But each week I have gotten worse. The only two

improvements that I've seen is that the swelling in my ankles is now

completely GONE.!! and sometimes I'm able to get into bed MUCH

easier. I used to just lay down and drag myself into bed... If this

is a Herx that I'm going through (I HOPE) I wouldnt wish this on

anyone.

I've read that alot of Lymies have posative results with Rife

Therapy. has anyone else heard this. The one that seems to be

helping the most is only about 300.00

http://www.highpowermagneticpulser.com/

I'm not much into alternative medicine. But I've hear from ALOT of

people that this thing is really working and having ALOT of posative

results.

If anyone has any experience with Rife therapy. Please let me

know.

> , Do you mind me asking who your insurance company is,

because Mine wouldn't pay for more than 6 weeks of IV.

>

> This is only my opinion, but if you're getting worse on Rocephin

then you are probably experiencing a Herxheimer. This is a good

sign, you will get worse before you get better. That was my

experience, anyway. If it was me I would stay on the IV until I

start to feel better, and then look for alternative forms of treatment

>

> The main objective is to maintain your health, and you can't rely

on your DR to tell you what that will be. Different things work for

different people.

>

> I did read that the longer it takes someone to Herx the deeper the

Lyme is in your system. It sounds like you've had it for a long

time? Penni

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I have a question about IV antibiotics and herx. I herxed badly for over 6

months on doxy. Now i have started Cleocin and Rifampin and am herxing a lot

again. If the IV gives a much higher dose of abx, then don't people get

unbearable herxing on them? I was about to get the Igenex Lyme test, but since

I have EBV I don't know if it is worth it because of the false postives. I had

always assumed I had mycoplasma, but tests came back negative. I do have staph

that these antibiotics work on; maybe the herx is caused by that and not lyme.

Thanks

Doris

[Guest guest]

Doris Brown wrote:

> I have a question about IV antibiotics and herx. I herxed badly for over 6

months on doxy. Now i have started Cleocin and Rifampin and am herxing a lot

again. If the IV gives a much higher dose of abx, then don't people get

unbearable herxing on them? I was about to get the Igenex Lyme test, but since

I have EBV I don't know if it is worth it because of the false postives.

Do you mean that if you have EBV that Igenex test will be false positive? Would

you give more details? Thanks.

mei

> I had always assumed I had mycoplasma, but tests came back negative. I do

have staph that these antibiotics work on; maybe the herx is caused by that and

not lyme.

>

> Thanks

> Doris

>

[Guest guest]

Hi, Doris,

IV is the best the reason you are herxing is you have a bad case of lyme.

You must be on an antibiotic that will pass through the lining of the brain and

thru the spinal column.

Igenex lab is very good. Only use urine. Not blood or like any other lab the

test will be negative because after antibiotic for any reason it seems to cancel

any positive tests.

Use urine not blood.

They send you a kit and have you take samples for a week refrigerate and send to

them.

Igenex Corp

Urine not blood.

Humboldt County Millie.

mt <mtien@...> wrote:

Doris Brown wrote:

> I have a question about IV antibiotics and herx. I herxed badly for over 6

months on doxy. Now i have started Cleocin and Rifampin and am herxing a lot

again. If the IV gives a much higher dose of abx, then don't people get

unbearable herxing on them? I was about to get the Igenex Lyme test, but since

I have EBV I don't know if it is worth it because of the false postives.

Do you mean that if you have EBV that Igenex test will be false positive? Would

you give more details? Thanks.

mei

> I had always assumed I had mycoplasma, but tests came back negative. I do

have staph that these antibiotics work on; maybe the herx is caused by that and

not lyme.

>

> Thanks

> Doris

>

[Guest guest]

I don't believe the answer you will definitely get a false positive, but that

you can get false positives. I do not know the percentages. Read on their

website. http://www.igenex.com/lymeset2.htm

" A positive IgG result with clinical history may be indicative of Lyme disease.

Patients with other spirochetal disease and/or who test positive for rheumatoid

factor or Epstein Barr virus may have cross-reacting antibodies. A positive

response in this, as in any antibody assay, indicates sensitization, not

necessarily active disease. "

Doris

----- Original Message -----

From: mt

Do you mean that if you have EBV that Igenex test will be false positive?

Would you give more details? Thanks.

mei

[Guest guest]

My point is that if Herx on oral doses of antibiotics, don't you herx incredibly

more on the higher doses of IV? I couldn't handle any more than I get from oral

doses.

Doris

----- Original Message -----

Hi, Doris,

IV is the best the reason you are herxing is you have a bad case of lyme.

[Guest guest]

Hi Doris,

Do you want to get better? Stupid question I know. Bite the bullet and Sock it

to you. With high dose meds IV. Months, Years.

As long as there is a Herx there are active bugs.

God bless.

Humboldt Co. Millie

Doris Brown <dorisbrown9@...> wrote:

My point is that if Herx on oral doses of antibiotics, don't you herx incredibly

more on the higher doses of IV? I couldn't handle any more than I get from oral

doses.

Doris

----- Original Message -----

Hi, Doris,

IV is the best the reason you are herxing is you have a bad case of lyme.

[Guest guest]

Thanks. Helpful. NOT.

I am asking a serious question here. I don't need an answer like " bite the

bullet. " On oral doses I herx so bad that nobody in the world could sustain

that for long periods of time. It would lead to suicide. So I would assume

that higher doses from IV would cause even more. But maybe that is not the

case? That is what I am asking. Have those on IV antibiotics found that it

causes less herxing for some reason, even though the dose is higher. One guy

had a theory for example that a lot of the herx headache came from dehydration.

I thought this was nuts at the time, but I do try to drink a ton of water now

and the headache is better. So maybe you get hydrated from the IV and the

effects are not as bad. Or maybe because the bugs are knocked out faster, or

don't go through your stomach, they are not as bad.

Doris

----- Original Message -----

From: Millie

Do you want to get better? Stupid question I know. Bite the bullet and Sock

it to you. With high dose meds IV. Months, Years.

[Guest guest]

Doris, I completely understand. I was herxing so bad I thought it couldn't get

any worse. Then last week for about 3 days felt better just to have to hit me

even harder. Today it would be so easy to down every pill in my house (and as I

am sure with all of us there is ALOT) I just keep telling myself to get through

today maybe tomorrow will be better (it's usually worse though) I am on IV

rocephen. I want so badly to have my doctor take me off I don't know how much

more I can take.

Doris Brown <dorisbrown9@...> wrote:Thanks. Helpful. NOT.

I am asking a serious question here. I don't need an answer like " bite the

bullet. " On oral doses I herx so bad that nobody in the world could sustain

that for long periods of time. It would lead to suicide. So I would assume

that higher doses from IV would cause even more. But maybe that is not the

case? That is what I am asking. Have those on IV antibiotics found that it

causes less herxing for some reason, even though the dose is higher. One guy

had a theory for example that a lot of the herx headache came from dehydration.

I thought this was nuts at the time, but I do try to drink a ton of water now

and the headache is better. So maybe you get hydrated from the IV and the

effects are not as bad. Or maybe because the bugs are knocked out faster, or

don't go through your stomach, they are not as bad.

Doris

----- Original Message -----

From: Millie

Do you want to get better? Stupid question I know. Bite the bullet and Sock

it to you. With high dose meds IV. Months, Years.

[Guest guest]

Hi

I'm sorry to hear that. I thought maybe it was better somehow. You really

don't hear people on IV's complaining too much about unbearable herxing. I know

that it does vary from person to person, and also there are some drugs that

reduce the herxing. Maybe some people take those. I hope you improve soon!

Doris

----- Original Message -----

From: Dokkenette

Doris, I completely understand. I was herxing so bad I thought it couldn't get

any worse. Then last week for about 3 days felt better just to have to hit me

even harder. Today it would be so easy to down every pill in my house (and as I

am sure with all of us there is ALOT) I just keep telling myself to get through

today maybe tomorrow will be better (it's usually worse though) I am on IV

rocephen. I want so badly to have my doctor take me off I don't know how much

more I can take.

[Guest guest]

Thank you, I hope we ALL feel better soon!!!!

Doris Brown <dorisbrown9@...> wrote:Hi

I'm sorry to hear that. I thought maybe it was better somehow. You really

don't hear people on IV's complaining too much about unbearable herxing. I know

that it does vary from person to person, and also there are some drugs that

reduce the herxing. Maybe some people take those. I hope you improve soon!

Doris

----- Original Message -----

From: Dokkenette

Doris, I completely understand. I was herxing so bad I thought it couldn't get

any worse. Then last week for about 3 days felt better just to have to hit me

even harder. Today it would be so easy to down every pill in my house (and as I

am sure with all of us there is ALOT) I just keep telling myself to get through

today maybe tomorrow will be better (it's usually worse though) I am on IV

rocephen. I want so badly to have my doctor take me off I don't know how much

more I can take.

[Guest guest]

Thank You :-)

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: <misterymoi@y...>

>

>

> > Can someone please tell me what a Herx is? I've been reading

about it

> for a few months now and have no idea of what this mean?

> >

> > Thanks,

> >

>

> Lyme Disease

> What is a Herxheimer Reaction?

> By Donna Herrell

> Founder, Lyme Disease Information Resource

>

>

> Overview:

>

>

> The herxheimer reaction, nicknamed " herx " , otherwise referred to as

> Jarisch-Herxheimer (J-H) is a phenomenon originally observed in the

> treatment of Syphilis, but later found in other illness [1]. In

general

> terms, it is described as a temporary increase of symptoms when

> anti-syphilitic drugs (antibiotics) are administered.

>

> What is known or speculated about Lyme disease herxheimers are

based heavily

> on the reactions seen in Syphilis. [2-3] This is due to the fact

both

> diseases are caused by a bacteria known as a spirochete, the

former being

> Treponema pallidum, the latter Borrelia burgdoferi (B.. However,

the

> herxheimer reactions in Lyme disease are not identical to those

seen in

> Syphilis, especially in terms of timing, frequency and duration as

noted

> below. [1-5]

>

> In Lyme disease it is thought that the cause of herxheimers are

the result

> of endotoxin release. [2,5] That is toxin(s) within the spirochete

that are

> released as the B.b are killed or broken down. This may be a

result of the

> toxin(s) itself or the body's immune response to such.

>

> Symptoms:

>

> As mentioned, the general description is a temporary increase in

symptoms,

> but also included is the development of new ones. More

specifically the most

> common events include: increased joint or muscle pain, headaches,

chills,

> fever (usually low grade), hypotension, uticaria (hives) and rash.

[1-5] A

> multitude of other symptoms have been described.

>

> Worth noting is that hives and rash are sometimes mistaken for an

allergic

> reaction. [2] It is up to one's physician to determine this.

However, with

> close observation and proper treatment (see Treatment) may prevent

> unnecessary cessation of therapy.

>

> In more severe cases of J-H, a reduction of the dosage or

temporarily

> cessation of the treatment has been recommended [5].

>

> Timing, Frequency and Duration:

>

> This is individualistic and herxheimers can occur within days to

weeks after

> the institution of antibiotic therapy. In some patients they occur

only once

> or twice (if at all) and with others continue throughout the

course of

> treatment, usually lessening in severity.

>

> They can occur and are more often described in cycles (example:

every 4

> weeks) and have been reported to last from days to weeks. It can

be very

> beneficial to document any exacerbation. Some physicians use this

as a

> guideline for treatment. Further, it may help differentiate

herxheimers from

> the normal symptoms or progression of Lyme disease.

>

> Treatment:

>

> Herxheimer reactions can be very difficult on patients and affect

compliance

> with therapy so supportive measures should be sought or utilized

to lessen

> discomfort if needed. The use of aspirin, NSAIDs (non-steroidal

> anti-inflammatory drugs), pain medication, muscle relaxers, hot

baths or

> others remedies can be appropriate. Of note, some have found

Benadryl

> helpful even in the absence of rash or hives.

>

> The good news is that the herxheimer is thought to indicate that

the

> antibiotics are indeed working and that following each worsening

may bring

> about more improvement. Though the lack of a herxheimer reaction

should not

> cause anxiety if symptoms are improving.

>

> Other considerations:

>

> Something often overlooked but can present with similar symptoms

is Candida

> (yeast) infection. Treatment with acidophilus and if needed

prescription

> medications such as Nystatin or Diflucan can be utilized.

>

> Sources of Information:

>

> Lyme Disease 1991 - Patient/Physician Perspectives from the U.S.

and Canada

> The Jarisch-Herxheimer Reaction H. Katzel M.D.

> Managing Lyme Disease 1996 ph J Burrascano M.D.

> Principles and Practice of Infectious Diseases 4th Ed. Mandell,

and

>

> Seronegative chronic relapsing neuroborreliosis. Lawrence C,

Lipton RB, Lowy

> FD, Coyle PK Eur Neurol 1995;35(2):113-117

> The New Lyme Disease 1998 ph J Burrascano M.D.

> See Jarisch-Herxheimer / Jarisch-Herxheimer-like Reactions

> Lyme disease, Tick-borne Relapsing Fever and Allergy

> Document and reference collection (in progress) November 15, 1999

> http://www.x-l.net/Lyme/abstracts/herx/herx.collection.html

>

>

_____________________________________________________________________

_____

>

> This document is for informational purpose only and not written by

a medical

> professional. This article may be copied for personal use. For

republication

> in any format please contact the author at dherrell@x...

>

> Copyright © 1997

> Lyme Disease Information Resource http://www.x-l.net/Lyme/HERX.html

[Guest guest]

Dear Jill,

Sounds like a plan.

The lung cancer herx is worse. Think about coughing tissue out of your

lungs. Flowing mucous even when you are not coughing. Red oozing blisters

on your chest. It is worse. And they come back every day.

Best of Health!

Dr. Saul Pressman

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------\

---------------------

----Original Message Follows----

From: " jill1313 " <jenbooks13@...>

Reply-oxyplus

oxyplus

Subject: Re: Plugged liver

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 15:16:03 -0000

Thanx Saul.'s experience made me hesitant to do the flush until

after current deadline. I might do fine with it but if I didn't,

losing 3 days right now is not a good idea. I thought what I could do

is start adding vaginal insufflation back in (very small amounts), do

the steam saunas without ozone for simple detox and enjoyment, and do

a flush next weekend or as soon as I am done with my deadline. I

don't think I want to wait 6 weeks to start resuming saunas, but

maybe I will start back on them slow and see, after one liver flush,

if you think I should do another (depending on my response to the

liver flush).

You mentioned 5 saunas a week for the lymies in Cowden's study, but

that might've been a bit intense. Maybe lymies have to build up

slowly, as the herxheimer effect with lyme is one of the most intense

around.

> Dear Jill,

>

>

> Sorry about the math!

>

> A liver flush every two weeks for 6 weeks.

>

> Three flushes in total.

>

> Best of health!

> Dr. Saul Pressman

>

> ----------------------------------------------------------------

>

>

OxyPLUS is an unmoderated e-ring dealing with oxidative therapies, and other

alternative self-help subjects.

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[Guest guest]

Owwww. What a description.

BTW, how many people you've worked with have that Gp6d deficiency or

whatever it's called--the one where you aren't allowed to take

oxidizing things, including ozone, as you get anemia? I know it's

more common among African Americans, as apparently it was somewhat

protective against malaria in Africa. Just curious.

> Dear Jill,

>

> Sounds like a plan.

>

> The lung cancer herx is worse. Think about coughing tissue out of

your

> lungs. Flowing mucous even when you are not coughing. Red oozing

blisters

> on your chest. It is worse. And they come back every day.

>

> Best of Health!

> Dr. Saul Pressman

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi all,

Can someone help me out here with what is referred to as herxing on the

site. I understand that the Jarisch Herxheimer reaction was originally

constructed to refer to the temporary worsening of symptoms when

antibiotics are used to treat syphilis and that this has been widened to

cover other antibiotic reactions while die-off is occurring.

This fairly specific use of the term has clearly increased and now

encompasses any reaction (temporary) that occurs at the beginning of any

treatment be it with antibiotics or not.

What I really would like to know is how would one tell the difference

between this and an undesirable side effect which has no intention of

lifting, and what sort of symptoms are generally grouped under the

banner of 'herx'?

Rosie

*

[Guest guest]

Hi Rosie.

I think that we have stretched the meaning of herx to the point that

it's not very useful. I don't knoew of any way to distinguish

between a temporary worsening of symptoms before improvement begins

and a plain old bad reaction, which is pretty common among PWCs

trying various treatments.

The only thing I can suggest is that you try to find out before

trying a treatment if it may temporarily make you feel worse from

someone who is knowledgeable about the treatment.

We all react so differently to different things and are all doing so

many different combinations of treatments that I don't think one or

two persons comments on the newsgroup are of much help in determining

if it will help or hurt you.

Tom

> Hi all,

>

> Can someone help me out here with what is referred to as herxing on

the

> site. I understand that the Jarisch Herxheimer reaction was

originally

> constructed to refer to the temporary worsening of symptoms when

> antibiotics are used to treat syphilis and that this has been

widened to

> cover other antibiotic reactions while die-off is occurring.

>

> This fairly specific use of the term has clearly increased and now

> encompasses any reaction (temporary) that occurs at the beginning

of any

> treatment be it with antibiotics or not.

>

> What I really would like to know is how would one tell the

difference

> between this and an undesirable side effect which has no intention

of

> lifting, and what sort of symptoms are generally grouped under the

> banner of 'herx'?

>

> Rosie

> *

[Guest guest]

i already use alot of sea salt and take 4 salt tabs, the CNC brand, and no

relief, guess i will try to increase the salt tabs, i am trying to treat stuff i

probably dont even know i have and lyme, but the herx is so unbearable i cant

tolerate even one drop of samento, or immunopro, any help would be

appreciated thanks for replying

radha

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 21/10/2006 19:34:39 GMT Standard Time, j_mooare@...

writes:

What's can one conclude if it appears immunopro creates a very strong

Herx reaction while Glutiathone Liposomal does not? I'm taking about

1/8 of a teaspoon of immunopro every other day. After taking it, the

next day I have that severe hung over feeling. I would prefer to take

GSH but it is very expensive. I guess I'm not being patient with

immunopro. I've been taking it about two weeks.

***I was herxing for months on whey protein.!

I actually feel good and have done so or a while!

Regards

CS

[Guest guest]

Or, you have a CBS mutation and should not be on it at all.

Janet

bhammanuk@... wrote:

In a message dated 21/10/2006 19:34:39 GMT Standard Time, j_mooare@...

writes:

What's can one conclude if it appears immunopro creates a very strong

Herx reaction while Glutiathone Liposomal does not? I'm taking about

1/8 of a teaspoon of immunopro every other day. After taking it, the

next day I have that severe hung over feeling. I would prefer to take

GSH but it is very expensive. I guess I'm not being patient with

immunopro. I've been taking it about two weeks.

***I was herxing for months on whey protein.!

I actually feel good and have done so or a while!

Regards

CS

[Guest guest]

Janet, but if the liposomal form doesn't bother her, would your conclusion still

be true?

Adrienne

Re: Herx

Or, you have a CBS mutation and should not be on it at all.

Janet

bhammanuk@... wrote:

In a message dated 21/10/2006 19:34:39 GMT Standard Time, j_mooare@...

writes:

What's can one conclude if it appears immunopro creates a very strong

Herx reaction while Glutiathone Liposomal does not? I'm taking about

1/8 of a teaspoon of immunopro every other day. After taking it, the

next day I have that severe hung over feeling. I would prefer to take

GSH but it is very expensive. I guess I'm not being patient with

immunopro. I've been taking it about two weeks.

***I was herxing for months on whey protein.!

I actually feel good and have done so or a while!

Regards

CS