ALA

[Guest guest]

Hi, Marc,

 

I also think we sometimes lack other vitamins and minerals which work along with

ALA which then influence how well (or  not) it works.  Rarely do supplements

work in total isolation--sorry, I am having problems with word finding.  But

you know what I mean. 

 

My 2 pennies,

Diane

From: Marc <marc@...>

Subject: Re: Re: ALA

Date: Saturday, January 2, 2010, 1:51 PM

 

> Sorry spelling error (did fine) in other words;  tolerated both brands of

> ALA? I was interested in the Kirkman so I will look for it. Loni

Well it's all a matter of dosage, and some would claim frequency of dose.

Fans of " frequent dose chelation " will tell you that you have to take

ALA every 3 hours, day and night, for a few days and then take a break

of a week or more.

Taking it this way, I get side effects (anxiety, mostly) from taking 25mg

of the Kirkman ALA every 3 hours, but no side effects at half that amount

(half of the contents of the capsule dumped out). And then after you've

finished with that " round " , you'll probably get the worst side effects

as the level of ALA in your bloodstream drops and any mobilized

metals don't get taken out of your body. So my worst side effects are

usually 6 - 24 hours after I've stopped taking the ALA every 3 hours.

Marc

[Guest guest]

My favorites are Geronova R Lipoic and Quantum DHLA. Quantum is super pure.

Geronova is pure especially in bulk powder.

>

> > This is just my point. If you take ALA, you should be getting

> > ALA. How can ALA be more effective than ALA???

>

> Well, technically, " ALA " is a component of food, and the pills

> we take a chemical impersonations of this food. So different

> manufacturing processes can create a different " ALA " . We've

> already seen some manufacturers selling R-ALA, and claiming

> it is more natural than regular ALA, and also more potent.

> So not ALA is the same.

>

> > This is the more likely reason, in my oppinion.

> > Can you tell me what new adrenal support supplements you've

> > been taking between taking the two different ALA-brands?

> > (Is it the russian root formula?)

>

> I've been taking lots of things -- Dr. 's Adrenal

> Rebuilder, IsoCort, Drenamin, Drenatrophin PMG, and a bit

> of Adrenal Cortex from Nutricology. Also Eleuthero (Siberian

> Ginseng) from Medi-Herb.

>

> Marc

>

[Guest guest]

> My favorites are Geronova R Lipoic and Quantum DHLA. Quantum is super

> pure. Geronova is pure especially in bulk powder.

And why are these your favorites? Reaction? Side Effects?

Marc

[Guest guest]

> If there's a bad reaction to ALA does that mean to keep using it so it

> can clear the metals or to stop using it?

There's a group of folks on the Internet who use something called

" frequent dose chelation " , and they claim that ALA can only safely

be used for chelation when taken in small amounts every 3-4 hours

(including overnight!) for periods of 3 days followed by 3+

day breaks. They say that you should find a dose that is small

enough not to cause unpleasant side effects during those 3

days or the next few days after. For really sensitive

folks, it may require tiny doses of maybe 1mg - 10mg per

dose to start with, and then ramp up as tolerated to perhaps

100mg per dose. Although tolerating that dose may take years.

The discussion group for that is on -- frequent-dose-chelation

The smallest ALA dose I can find commercially online in the USA

is 25mg capsules from Kirkman. One can use a capsule-making device to

mix those down to whatever dose you can tolerate. I've been

doing this for several months -- it seemed like it would be

a terrible hassle at first, although it seems like second

nature now (although I have a battery-operated timer to remind

me when its time, and the remaining capsules to take during

the day are in a container in my pocket).

Taking ALA may decrease the amount of copper excreted, so

if one is copper-toxic, ALA may make that worse. As for

ALA depleting other nutrient minerals, I guess that must

be an area of controversy, as I recently heard an interview

where " the expert " said that ALA did not deplete any nutrient

minerals.

Marc

[Guest guest]

Interesting, I had never heard of this about ALA other than it being an

antioxidant that helps regenerate other antioxidants.

> From: Marc <marc@...>

> Subject: Re: ALA

>

> Date: Saturday, April 3, 2010, 8:57 PM

> > If there's a bad reaction to ALA

> does that mean to keep using it so it

> > can clear the metals or to stop using it?

>

> There's a group of folks on the Internet who use something

> called

> " frequent dose chelation " , and they claim that ALA can only

> safely

> be used for chelation when taken in small amounts every 3-4

> hours

> (including overnight!) for periods of 3 days followed by

> 3+

> day breaks. They say that you should find a dose that

> is small

> enough not to cause unpleasant side effects during those 3

> days or the next few days after. For really

> sensitive

> folks, it may require tiny doses of maybe 1mg - 10mg per

> dose to start with, and then ramp up as tolerated to

> perhaps

> 100mg per dose. Although tolerating that dose may

> take years.

> The discussion group for that is on --

> frequent-dose-chelation

>

> The smallest ALA dose I can find commercially online in the

> USA

> is 25mg capsules from Kirkman. One can use a

> capsule-making device to

> mix those down to whatever dose you can tolerate.

> I've been

> doing this for several months -- it seemed like it would

> be

> a terrible hassle at first, although it seems like second

> nature now (although I have a battery-operated timer to

> remind

> me when its time, and the remaining capsules to take

> during

> the day are in a container in my pocket).

>

> Taking ALA may decrease the amount of copper excreted, so

> if one is copper-toxic, ALA may make that worse. As

> for

> ALA depleting other nutrient minerals, I guess that must

> be an area of controversy, as I recently heard an

> interview

> where " the expert " said that ALA did not deplete any

> nutrient

> minerals.

>

> Marc

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

> Interesting, I had never heard of this about ALA other than it being an

> antioxidant that helps regenerate other antioxidants.

Yes, for folks with heavy metal problems, ALA should not be viewed

as an antioxidant, but rather a chelator. The half-life of the

chelating is typically around 3 hours, so taking it every 3 hours

keeps the metals moving out of the body, rather than just being

moved around and redeposited within the body (or at least,

that's the theory). There is moving around after the last

dose on the third day, but that can't be helped (unless you

can stand taking it continuously, which is probably not

likely or practical)

Marc

[Guest guest]

Any validated research on this?

________________________________

From: Marc <marc@...>

Sent: Sun, 4 April, 2010 8:57:27

Subject: Re: ALA

 

> Interesting, I had never heard of this about ALA other than it being an

> antioxidant that helps regenerate other antioxidants.

Yes, for folks with heavy metal problems, ALA should not be viewed

as an antioxidant, but rather a chelator. The half-life of the

chelating is typically around 3 hours, so taking it every 3 hours

keeps the metals moving out of the body, rather than just being

moved around and redeposited within the body (or at least,

that's the theory). There is moving around after the last

dose on the third day, but that can't be helped (unless you

can stand taking it continuously, which is probably not

likely or practical)

Marc

[Guest guest]

I've taken ALA now for more than two and a half years. I did a year and a half

and then stopped for two years. I started again in February of last year and

began doing it continuously several months after than. So I've been doing a

continuous round for almost a year now. Since January I have gone to using only

R-ALA and no longer use regular ALA at all. I know now that some of the side

effects that I got from doing ALA were from the ALA brand itself. If I forget

to toake my R-ALA to work with me and then buy some regular ALA somewhere or use

the back up ALA in the car then I get side effects that I no longer get from

using R-ALA continuously. Not saying that you won't have a bad reaction to

chelation with R-ALA. But you should have less with R-ALA.

[Guest guest]

> Any validated research on this?

I generally don't pay much attention to " validated research " , as so much

of it is wrong. For example, I understand that there is research

proving that ES does not exist. :-)

However, I do note that there are 2 :

adult-metal-chelation/

frequent-dose-chelation/

These have over 3,000 members and a sum total of 100,000 messages

over the past 9 years, with plenty of examples of people completely

recovering from mercury poisoning when other methods just made them

worse. Also, I have tried many chelators over the years, and confirm

that ALA causes all the negative same side effects (when taken in

doses higher than your body can stand) that the other chelators do.

There are also books based on this at:

http://noamalgam.com/

Frequent dose chelation is often referred to as " The Cutler Method " , as

it was Andy Cutler who came up with the idea and wrote the original

books.

Many people on these groups are convinced that this is the *the only

way* to cure oneself of mercury poisoning. And while I will not go

that far, I will say that it definitely seems to be *one* way, and

also perhaps the least expensive way.

Marc

[Guest guest]

> I've taken ALA now for more than two and a half years. I did a year and

> a half and then stopped for two years. So

> I've been doing a continuous round for almost a year now.

Have you been taking it every 3 hours continuously for a year?!

And have you gotten better during that time?

> I know now that some of the side effects that I got from doing ALA were

> from the ALA brand itself.

And which were the " good " brands to take and which were the

" bad " ones?

I briefly tried DHLA (which is supposed to be even better than

R-ALA), but found the side effects too nasty to continue with,

even though it was obviously (and immediately) helpful for my

ES symptoms.

Marc

[Guest guest]

> Frequent dose chelation is often referred to as " The Cutler Method " , as

> it was Andy Cutler who came up with the idea and wrote the original

> books.

By the way, there is a very recent online audio interview with Andy

Cutler here:

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/thecandystore/2010/03/15/special-guest-andrew-hall-\

cutler-phd-pe

This is primarily about mercury in vaccines and autism,

but there is also discussion on ALA being used as a mercury chelator.

Also, it appears that Andy's original thinking involved using DMSA

+ ALA, but from this interview and from the discussion groups, it

seems that the current thinking is that DMSA is optional, and ALA

is the only thing " required " to overcome mercury poisoning.

Marc

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the info because I had just ordered a bottle

> From: Marc <marc@...>

> Subject: Re: ALA

>

> Date: Saturday, April 3, 2010, 11:57 PM

> > Interesting, I had never heard

> of this about ALA other than it being an

> > antioxidant that helps regenerate other antioxidants.

>

> Yes, for folks with heavy metal problems, ALA should not be

> viewed

> as an antioxidant, but rather a chelator. The

> half-life of the

> chelating is typically around 3 hours, so taking it every 3

> hours

> keeps the metals moving out of the body, rather than just

> being

> moved around and redeposited within the body (or at least,

>

> that's the theory). There is moving around after the

> last

> dose on the third day, but that can't be helped (unless

> you

> can stand taking it continuously, which is probably not

> likely or practical)

>

> Marc

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Good to know, i can order a bottle of that

> From: skolyer@... <skolyer@...>

> Subject: Re: ALA

>

> Date: Sunday, April 4, 2010, 8:07 AM

> I've taken ALA now for more than two

> and a half years. I did a year and a half and then

> stopped for two years. I started again in February of

> last year and began doing it continuously several months

> after than. So I've been doing a continuous round for

> almost a year now. Since January I have gone to using only

> R-ALA and no longer use regular ALA at all. I know now

> that some of the side effects that I got from doing ALA were

> from the ALA brand itself. If I forget to toake my

> R-ALA to work with me and then buy some regular ALA

> somewhere or use the back up ALA in the car then I get side

> effects that I no longer get from using R-ALA

> continuously. Not saying that you won't have a bad

> reaction to chelation with R-ALA. But you should have

> less with R-ALA.

>

>

[Guest guest]

> Thanks for the info because I had just ordered a bottle

Just remember, if ALA makes you feel bad almost immediately,

that means the dosage is too high. And I've seen people

on those chelation groups that can only stand taking 1 mg

at a time, which is far less than the 600 mg capsules you

may find at your local store. In these cases, one should

probably assume that the person is extremely poisoned.

In fact, anyone with electrical or chemical sensitivities

could probably be classified as extremely poisoned, as

the symptoms of mild or moderate poisoning aren't as

bad. And for people with extreme poisoning, you should

expect that your initial tolerance will be less than

normal (that is, less than 10 - 25mg every 3 hours),

and that the amount of time it takes to get better

will be longer than normal (that is, longer than 1 - 2 years).

Plus, you will likely need more " support " supplements

to control symptoms while in the process of getting

better.

Marc

[Guest guest]

What are the support supplements?

> From: Marc <marc@...>

> Subject: Re: ALA

>

> Date: Sunday, April 4, 2010, 11:23 AM

> > Thanks for the info because I

> had just ordered a bottle

>

> Just remember, if ALA makes you feel bad almost

> immediately,

> that means the dosage is too high. And I've seen

> people

> on those chelation groups that can only stand taking 1 mg

> at a time, which is far less than the 600 mg capsules you

> may find at your local store. In these cases, one

> should

> probably assume that the person is extremely poisoned.

> In fact, anyone with electrical or chemical sensitivities

> could probably be classified as extremely poisoned, as

> the symptoms of mild or moderate poisoning aren't as

> bad. And for people with extreme poisoning, you

> should

> expect that your initial tolerance will be less than

> normal (that is, less than 10 - 25mg every 3 hours),

> and that the amount of time it takes to get better

> will be longer than normal (that is, longer than 1 - 2

> years).

> Plus, you will likely need more " support " supplements

> to control symptoms while in the process of getting

> better.

>

> Marc

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

> What are the support supplements?

That would vary depending on the person, depending on whatever

symptoms you are experiencing. For example, someone who is

having anxiety might take one thing, while someone else who

has skin problems might take something else.

Basically, most of the supplements we talk about on this

group are the sorts of supplements that people take to

feel better while searching for a " cure " .

Marc

[Guest guest]

I'm sure whatever I need I already have in my vitamin store i call a kitchen

cabinet

> From: Marc <marc@...>

> Subject: Re: ALA

>

> Date: Sunday, April 4, 2010, 12:11 PM

> > What are the support

> supplements?

>

> That would vary depending on the person, depending on

> whatever

> symptoms you are experiencing. For example, someone

> who is

> having anxiety might take one thing, while someone else

> who

> has skin problems might take something else.

>

> Basically, most of the supplements we talk about on this

> group are the sorts of supplements that people take to

> feel better while searching for a " cure " .

>

> Marc

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

> I'm sure whatever I need I already have in my vitamin store i call a

> kitchen cabinet

Yes, I personally find my vitamin cabinets rather embarrassing.

Although I've seen on other groups that the definition of being " cured "

means that you don't need to take any supplements at all. That would

be nice...

Also, on the subject of mercury chelators, I should note that ALA

has a reputation for being very good at liberating metals stored

inside of organs, fatty tissues, etc. into the bloodstream, but may have

a tendency to " drop " them before they make their way out of the body.

Thus the reason for taking it every 3 hours. There are other supplements

that have a reputation for NOT dropping metals before they get

out of the body (OSR#1, liquid zeolite), but these seem to have less

ability to liberate the metals from certain areas of the body (I say

this based on my own personal experience and the experiences of others).

So it may be necessary to use different things, either in parallel or

sequentially. For example, if I do a 3-day " round " of ALA, I usually

immediately follow it up with a few doses of OSR#1 to clean up the

leftover metals that the ALA didn't get out.

Marc

[Guest guest]

How about just taking cilantro and chlorella to get the metals out? NAC also and

selenium. I saw that program with ALA dosing schedule of every hour or 3 hours,

even at night when you are trying to sleep, that's insane, no way on earth I'm

doing that to myself.

> From: Marc <marc@...>

> Subject: Re: ALA

>

> Date: Monday, April 5, 2010, 12:05 PM

> > I'm sure whatever I need I

> already have in my vitamin store i call a

> > kitchen cabinet

>

> Yes, I personally find my vitamin cabinets rather

> embarrassing.

> Although I've seen on other groups that the definition of

> being " cured "

> means that you don't need to take any supplements at

> all.  That would

> be nice...

>

> Also, on the subject of mercury chelators, I should note

> that ALA

> has a reputation for being very good at liberating metals

> stored

> inside of organs, fatty tissues, etc. into the bloodstream,

> but may have

> a tendency to " drop " them before they make their way out of

> the body.

> Thus the reason for taking it every 3 hours. There are

> other supplements

> that have a reputation for NOT dropping metals before they

> get

> out of the body (OSR#1, liquid zeolite), but these seem to

> have less

> ability to liberate the metals from certain areas of the

> body (I say

> this based on my own personal experience and the

> experiences of others).

> So it may be necessary to use different things, either in

> parallel or

> sequentially.  For example, if I do a 3-day " round " of

> ALA, I usually

> immediately follow it up with a few doses of OSR#1 to clean

> up the

> leftover metals that the ALA didn't get out.

>

> Marc

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

> How about just taking cilantro and chlorella to get the metals out?

Some doctors do suggest this, and I certainly have had some success

in using NDF, which is a mixture of both. However, others maintain

that in extremely toxic/sensitive people, this may just make your

problems worse due to unsafe distribution of metals. The only

way to know for sure is to try it and see what the side effects

and benefits are like, and stop it if things go bad. All I know

is that after taking NDF for years, I'm *not* cured. Maybe

I wouldn't be with ALA either (?)

> I saw that program with ALA dosing schedule of every

> hour or 3 hours, even at night when you are trying to sleep, that's

> insane, no way on earth I'm doing that to myself.

That is a common reaction, and in fact was *my* reaction for many

years. But in reality this is not so horrible -- you can take

it every 4 hours overnight, so I take a dose as I'm going to

bed, once in the middle of the night (with an alarm to wake me),

and then when I wake up in the morning (11pm, 3am, 7am). It's

not so bad really. I'll typically wake up and fall back asleep

during the night anyway. The only difference is that I have

an alarm and take a pill.

Marc

[Guest guest]

I guess who really knows if any of this is helpful and/or safe?

As for the ALA schedule I already have insomnia and if I set my alarm to take it

I'm not getting back to sleep. Ain't gonna happen!

I think I'll just try the cilantro/chlorella liquid I bought, along with NAC and

see how i react.

First I have to get the last filling out of my mouth. Next come the crowns.

I assume you stay away from tuna? I am contemplating switching to sardines as i

still eat a can of tuna/week.

> From: Marc <marc@...>

> Subject: Re: ALA

>

> Date: Monday, April 5, 2010, 12:48 PM

> > How about just taking cilantro

> and chlorella to get the metals out?

>

> Some doctors do suggest this, and I certainly have had some

> success

> in using NDF, which is a mixture of both.  However,

> others maintain

> that in extremely toxic/sensitive people, this may just

> make your

> problems worse due to unsafe distribution of metals. 

> The only

> way to know for sure is to try it and see what the side

> effects

> and benefits are like, and stop it if things go bad. 

> All I know

> is that after taking NDF for years, I'm *not* cured. 

> Maybe

> I wouldn't be with ALA either (?)

>

> > I saw that program with ALA dosing schedule of every

> > hour or 3 hours, even at night when you are trying to

> sleep, that's

> > insane, no way on earth I'm doing that to myself.

>

> That is a common reaction, and in fact was *my* reaction

> for many

> years.  But in reality this is not so horrible -- you

> can take

> it every 4 hours overnight, so I take a dose as I'm going

> to

> bed, once in the middle of the night (with an alarm to wake

> me),

> and then when I wake up in the morning (11pm, 3am,

> 7am).  It's

> not so bad really.  I'll typically wake up and fall

> back asleep

> during the night anyway.  The only difference is that

> I have

> an alarm and take a pill.

>

> Marc

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

> I guess who really knows if any of this is helpful and/or safe?

Well, I know that we had one former member ( " Ed from the Netherlands " )

who used the frequent dosing ALA, and reported that his ES went away

entirely after a number of months. He unsubscribed from the group

because it was no longer of interest to him.

> First I have to get the last filling out of my mouth. Next come the

> crowns.

Well yes, you should have the metal removed from your teeth

before chelating anyways.

> I assume you stay away from tuna? I am contemplating switching to

> sardines as i still eat a can of tuna/week.

The mercury content varies greatly between various types of tuna --

for example, " dolphin-safe " tuna usually implies that the tuna

are smaller fish, which means they don't have as much mercury in

them. Also, " chunk lite " tuna is supposed to have less mercury

in it. I've found limited amounts of chunk lite Tongal tuna

(they sell that in my local store) seems okay, although I have

switched mostly to a particular brand of sardine that tastes

pretty much like tuna to me.

Marc

[Guest guest]

Yes and no. I can't say I haven't missed a dose in that time period but it has

been a continuous round for alomost a year now. The first year and a half I did

was hell. The last six months were pretty much continuous. I stopped for about

two years and started again in February of last year. I can't remember exactly

when I started the continous round I am on mow. But it seems like I did it on

the weekends for a couple of months at least before doing it continuously. And

yes, I would say that I have seen continual improvements even though I have been

doing it for so long now. And brand of ALA gives me side effects that the R-ALA

does not. Regular ALA has two forms of ALA. Only one form, the R form is what

the body uses. The other form which I think is an L-form (not certain of that),

actually is harmful to the mitocondria of the cells and I think it is possibly

what causes some of the side effects. Regular ALA is supposed to be a 50/50

mixture of these two forms. I haven't read lots of literature on this and so it

may not be totally accurate. But I have read this on istes that sell the R form

of ALA. I have also heard others say that if you take the R form you don't get

the side effects. My guess though is that someone who is very toxic is going to

probably get side effects even with the R form, but not as bad. They will get

the side effects caused by the mercury being moved through the body. Also I

will tell you that I don't get the problems with the prostate with the R-form

that I get with regular ALA. I have been doing it so long now that it just

makes me feel good when I take it. If I take the regular ALA I can get symptoms

that I dan do without and seem to me to have nothing to do with the mercury

moving through the body since I don't get them with the R-ALA. If I stop taking

the R-ALA then I start to get kidney pain. To me this means that the mercury is

trying to find another way out of the body and is still being taken out of the

body. So I feel like I'm sparing my kidneys by taking it out with the R-ALA

through the bile and the gut instead of the kidneys. After about three months

on R-ALA only I would not go back to taking regular ALA. I have not heard of

DHLA before. What can you tell me about it? I will do a google search on it.

Thanks for that info.

[Guest guest]

> I have not heard of DHLA before. What can you tell me

> about it?

Thanks for that info -- I have not tried the R-ALA, as the

frequent dosing people seem to be leery of it (but they

are a skeptical bunch). I do get side effects from

the ALA -- sometimes fatigue, sometimes anxiety, and

usually ringing ears after the end of the round.

DHLA is a reduced form or R-ALA. That means it has an

extra electron. R-ALA is an oxidized (missing electron)

form of DHLA. I know one product (DHLA Nano-Plex)

claims to not only be " natural " , but comes from natural

(food) sources. Most R-ALA does not come from natural

sources, but is usually syntheticly made just like regular

ALA and then they remove the unnatural S-ALA part.

Marc

[Guest guest]

Here is a link that gives a very lengthy discussion about the S and R forms of

ALA and also DHLA.

www.advice-hgh.com/ala/antioxidant-antagonist.html

Re: ALA

Yes and no. I can't say I haven't missed a dose in that time period but it

has been a continuous round for alomost a year now. The first year and a half I

did was hell. The last six months were pretty much continuous. I stopped for

about two years and started again in February of last year. I can't remember

exactly when I started the continous round I am on mow. But it seems like I did

it on the weekends for a couple of months at least before doing it continuously.

And yes, I would say that I have seen continual improvements even though I have

been doing it for so long now. And brand of ALA gives me side effects that the

R-ALA does not. Regular ALA has two forms of ALA. Only one form, the R form is

what the body uses. The other form which I think is an L-form (not certain of

that), actually is harmful to the mitocondria of the cells and I think it is

possibly what causes some of the side effects. Regular ALA is supposed to be a

50/50 mixture of these two forms. I haven't read lots of literature on this and

so it may not be totally accurate. But I have read this on istes that sell the

R form of ALA. I have also heard others say that if you take the R form you

don't get the side effects. My guess though is that someone who is very toxic

is going to probably get side effects even with the R form, but not as bad.

They will get the side effects caused by the mercury being moved through the

body. Also I will tell you that I don't get the problems with the prostate with

the R-form that I get with regular ALA. I have been doing it so long now that

it just makes me feel good when I take it. If I take the regular ALA I can get

symptoms that I dan do without and seem to me to have nothing to do with the

mercury moving through the body since I don't get them with the R-ALA. If I

stop taking the R-ALA then I start to get kidney pain. To me this means that

the mercury is trying to find another way out of the body and is still being

taken out of the body. So I feel like I'm sparing my kidneys by taking it out

with the R-ALA through the bile and the gut instead of the kidneys. After about

three months on R-ALA only I would not go back to taking regular ALA. I have

not heard of DHLA before. What can you tell me about it? I will do a google

search on it. Thanks for that info.