Hepatitis C/LDN labs with Dr. Zagon dosing comments

[Guest guest]

Hi,

I got back my new labs today - everything is pretty much the same as last time. My liver enzmes are still normal, a point or two away from where they were. My HCV viral load is at 16,500, up from the 14,679 they were in September. But a far cry from the 1,400,000 it was prior to being on LDN in Jan. 2009 - my liver enzymes were also very high at that time as well.

My platelets and red cell count both went up - again! Ferritin at 43, which is about 10 points lower than last time - and much better than the 176 it was 3 years ago thanks to taking IP-6. I'm pretty happy with all of it.

Still, I have to wonder why my viral load is staying just about the same - within the 11,000-18,000 range in the past 18 months. For these last set of labs, I have been taking 3 mg. of LDN every other night dosing. Previously, I had tried using it every night and increasing the dosage to 3.5 and 4.0 - however, not for long as I kept getting various HHV breakouts and the old problems of not sleeping too well. It was during that time that my viral load was at it's lowest - 11,300.

Last summer, I had written to Dr. Zagon about my dosage - I also told him about our Hepatitis Cam group and our LDN database. I mentioned that many folks who initially start out at 3 mg. dose have an initial tremendous drop in both viral load and liver enzymes. But many of their levels seem to go back up in later labs - but, when they would increase their LDN dosage, their lft's and viral load would go back down. This was his response (note - he also has some insights into taking LDN more than once a day)

"You are a product of not understanding how LDN works - a classic example I might add. And most of your colleagues on the web share your misinformation.

LDN works through what is called the opioid growth factor - a native peptide (and its receptor) in your body. LDN is a decoy that fills in at the site of the receptor - the body not having the peptide makes more of it in compensation. Now the trick we discovered 30 years ago. A short time of naltrexone - low dose naltrexone is the term lay people use (but really intermittent opioid receptor blockade) increases the peptide. After the naltrexone is metabolized - optimal time is 4-6 hours for around 3 mg, the high levels of peptide and actually an increase in receptors as well can interact. This depresses cell/viral proliferation - and makes you better.

By increasing your dose of LDN you are cutting into the time you need for an optimal reaction. Hence - you feel problems.

My advice - take 3 mg/day. If you have a problem, start taking LDN once every 2 days (many folks are taking it that way - and some every 3 days).

Dr. Zagon

A story. A lady calls me and says she has breast cancer. She is taking LDN and the cancer is growing more rapidly. I ask her how LDN is being given - she says that since LDN is so good, she is taking it several times a day. Now you know why she had a faster growing cancer - she was not allowing the opioid-receptor interaction to occur because of so much naltrexone.

And, if you block the receptors all day with naltrexone (high dose of naltrexone), we now see that wound healing is accelerated. Why, because the cells are speeding up in replication and healing the wound faster.

Below is what I first wrote to Dr. Zagon:

I have been on 3 mg. LDN for over a year for my HCV with terrific results - viral load dropped from 1,400,000 to 11,200 on my April 2010 labs and lft's are normal. I was on 3 mg. every other night,then every night. I recently increased my dosage in an attempt to lower my viral load even more - went up to 3.5 and then to 4 mg. taking it every night. However, I have had small outbreaks of shingles and HHV2 on the 4 mg. dosage. I did not take the LDN for a couple of nights and started again last night at 3.5. I am going togo back to every other night dosing for now.

So after Dr. Zagon's first response, I wrote him back and explained about our Hepatitis Cam group's database. And told him about how the people who increased their LDN dosage levels went back down. This was his reply:

First, science is science. If these individuals are having to go up on dosage to evoke a positive response, that is potentially meaningful. My interpretation is that these patients are exhibiting a tolerance that builds to LDN. Very interesting. Our initial recommendation was 3-10 mg of LDN daily.

Second, your story does not conform to what others may be seeing - tolerance. If anything, you are encountering a sensitivity. I would certainly try 3 mg every other day and see what happens.

Third, this entire LDN business is empirical right now - you have to be in the frontier of just plain trying things out. In your case, lower is the best. It may be that in some individuals their pharmacology is far different than yours - they might be building a tolerance and need more. Alternatively, the LDN is either breaking down over time and loses potentcy, or is not high quality or is being mixed in with "fi llers" that are negating the action of the LDN.

After that email, Joyce (Hepatitis Children and Cam Alternatives list owner) sent him our database and her daugher's seroconversion Hep B story - neither one of us has heard back from him.........So, now, months later, I am once again going to start taking more of LDN to try and get my viral load down even more - despite most of what he said about staying at a lower dose - he also said: "you have to be in the frontier of just plain trying things out. In your case, lower is the best."

We do have to keep in mind that Dr. Zagon says some things that are completely opposite of what other doctors claim - Dr. Bihari had almost all of his patients on 4.5 dosage. Dr. Berkson starts every patient on 3 mg. and encourages them to go up to 4.5 - "if they can take it". However, Dr. Zagon is the one who did the earliest work with opioid peptides and opioid receptors in the early 1970's, besides publishing countless papers and studies.

It is just so curious to me why my levels are staying the same - never going up (thankfully!) but never going down - WHY?

Nola http://nolahepper.blogspot.com/

Hepatitis_Children_and_CAM_Alternatives/

[Guest guest]

i'm very curious what CSilver added into your protocol would do to the viral load.

using something like 1 or 2 oz, 3 or 4X/day of homemade CS until next labs would be interesting.

at the least you wouldn't have any HHV breakouts, colds, flu, gum disease during that.

my CS use way pre-dated LDN and while it pulled me out of a really bad hepC tailspin and gave my life not only back but keeps me symptom free (using lots less than i used to) i never got enzymes close to normal or VL as low as yours... LDN helped the lab# but not as dramatically as hoped for.

but i smoke cigars and intermittently MJ and my life is little but a bag of stressors and exposure to stuff like paint chemistry, so that doesn't help.

i'm glad to read dr.Z's comments on dosing. thanks much for that! since re-starting LDN recently i'm doing it like you. still a bit of sleep disruption... if the bursitis would stay out of my legs so i could get some exercise and relax the sleep issue would likely disappear.

i've concluded the bursitis is septic, since it moves from place to place and doesn't seem to mine re-visiting where it just left (since last november). apparently that's usually a staph bug, can be MRSA. since figuring out what it is this morning the solution is obvious: lots of CS for a month. at least 8oz/day. after only 12 hours and 4 - 2oz glasses of CS i can tell an improvement already ... maybe... time will tell.

From: low dose naltrexone [mailto:low dose naltrexone ] On Behalf Of smalk50@...Sent: Monday, March 14, 2011 5:51 PMlow dose naltrexone Subject: [low dose naltrexone] Hepatitis C/LDN labs with Dr. Zagon dosing comments

Hi,

I got back my new labs today - everything is pretty much the same as last time. My liver enzmes are still normal, a point or two away from where they were. My HCV viral load is at 16,500, up from the 14,679 they were in September. But a far cry from the 1,400,000 it was prior to being on LDN in Jan. 2009 - my liver enzymes were also very high at that time as well.