Probiotics

[Guest guest]

I am taking SBX and ProBioPlus from Whole Approach. I also eat

yogurt occasionally, but think maybe dairy isn't too good for me.

I noticed big improvement when I started the SBX.

> >Anyone taking these or found a certain brand that works really

well? There

> >seem to be alot of different brands and, of course, they all claim

to be

> >the best,

[Guest guest]

What improvments have you noticed?

Ali

At 02:57 p.m. 17/02/2003 +0000, you wrote:

>I am taking SBX and ProBioPlus from Whole Approach. I also eat

>yogurt occasionally, but think maybe dairy isn't too good for me.

>I noticed big improvement when I started the SBX.

[Guest guest]

mostly more energy, less brain fog, less gas and bloating.

> >I am taking SBX and ProBioPlus from Whole Approach. I also eat

> >yogurt occasionally, but think maybe dairy isn't too good for me.

> >I noticed big improvement when I started the SBX.

[Guest guest]

Is taking probiotics a permanent thing? Do we do it forever, or only for a

certain amount of time?

I read that the good bacteria should end up regenerating itself - so how do

we know when to stop taking the probiotics?

Ali

At 03:41 a.m. 18/02/2003 +0000, you wrote:

>mostly more energy, less brain fog, less gas and bloating.

>

> > What improvments have you noticed?

> >

> > Ali

[Guest guest]

that's a good question.

even if it does regenerate itself - there are so many things that can

destroy it.

I like to think that i could have a diet and life style that would

support healthy flora and that I won't be buying all of this stuff

forever.

> > > What improvments have you noticed?

> > >

> > > Ali

[Guest guest]

I've been using Primal Defense which does not need the fridge and I love

it!

" Your biography becomes your biology. " - Caroline Myss

[Guest guest]

I asked around in response to the following: One of the apparent side effects

of probiotics is a significant rise in blood sugar--at least this is true for me

and others, if not

universal. I don't have bowel problems with it. Because I am diabetic I can't

take them. So they are not for everyone.

Below is the response I got:

Re: probiotics

Dear Diane

Primal Defense is actually recommended by the American Diabetic Association. To

Your Health!

Esther

Dreher, CCN, CCH,

author of " The Cleanse Cookbook "

's Cleanse Corner Inc.

P.O.Box 28895

San Diego, CA 92198

858-673-0224

www.TransformYourHealth.com

" Fear is the cheapest room in the house.

I would like to see you living

In better conditions. "

Hafiz, Persian Poet

[Guest guest]

Did the probiotic you took have any FOS in it?

> I asked around in response to the following: One of the apparent

side effects of probiotics is a significant rise in blood sugar--at

least this is true for me and others, if not

> universal. I don't have bowel problems with it. Because I am

diabetic I can't

> take them. So they are not for everyone.

>

>

[Guest guest]

That could be. I have kept them refrigerated since I opened the bottle.

I hope it's still good and I hope all those billions of little critters

all find homes! :-)

Zack

On Fri, 2 Jul 2004, Bee wrote:

> Dear Zack,

>

> About the probiotics you bought that were not in the fridge. Some

> are okay not frigerated until they are opened. The same is true for

> cod liver oil and other oils. After they are opened they must be

> kept in the fridge, but they do not lose potency because they have

> not been opened. It's something about the way they are packed -

> maybe under a vacuum seal?

>

> Take care,

> Bee

[Guest guest]

Dans un e-mail daté du 05/07/2004 13:37:21 Romance Standard Time,

beewilder@... a écrit :

> The idea with taking antifungals and probiotics at different times of

> the same day is that you are killing off the candida and then

> implanting good bacteria. It is a constant battle. Kill off, and

> then implant. Kill off and implant.

I cannot take antifungals right now. Even the natural ones like garlic cause

strong allergic reactions, so I will try probiotics first, testing if the

most pared down version does not cause me any trouble.

My question was about the use of probiotics in conjunction with FOS = Fructo

Oligo Saccharides, or inuline,. Those substances are supposed to feed the

probiotics, thus allowing them to settle and develop within the intestine. Some

sites recommend it, otherwise the probiotics would just go thru your system and

their effect stops when you stop teaking them. But FOS, being a form of

sugar, should also feed the bad guys...Inuline is not supposed to do that, but i

don't know much about it.

What do you think?

Francine

[Guest guest]

Dans un e-mail daté du 05/07/2004 16:30:02 Romance Standard Time,

w9sz@... a écrit :

> Pau d'arco tea is a mild antifungal. It also works on the system, not

> just the bowels. I've been drinking it for 3 months now, 3 glasses a day,

> and have had NO bad effects from it. Positive effects include getting rid

> of a persistent cough I've had for at least a decade, no headaches, and I

> just noticed lately that a couple benign cysts I have just under the skin

> (seems to be a hereditary problem in my family) are getting smaller.

>

> Did you receive your shipment yet?

>

Yes I did. its at the post office though. I did not have the time nor the

stamina to pick it up.

What you say sounds good, but unfortunaltely there is no guarantee pau d'arco

is not going to make me sick, my allergies are so extreme!

Thanks very much for your advice, Zak.

Francine

[Guest guest]

Dear Francine,

The idea with taking antifungals and probiotics at different times of

the same day is that you are killing off the candida and then

implanting good bacteria. It is a constant battle. Kill off, and

then implant. Kill off and implant.

But you can take antifungals without probiotics at first in order to

kill off large numbers of candida, and then a few days later start

with the probiotics.

The best to you,

Bee

> Is it absolutely necessary to use probiotics with FOS or inuline?

> Thanks for you answer.

>

> Francine

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dans un e-mail daté du 05/07/2004 19:13:40 Romance Standard Time,

stordock@... a écrit :

> For the most part probiotic supplementation is unnecessary if you are

> ingesting enough prebiotics to promote large populations of

> the beneficial bacteria which are already in the gut. Probiotics taken

> without having enough food present for them to grow can't

> grow and develop big enough populations for them to implant on the bowel

> wall and edge out less desirable species. To me it would

> seem a more effective strategy to provide food for the growth of beneficial

> bowel bacteria than to take probiotic supplements. I

> have heard it called bowel gardening. : -)

>

> regards, Bruce

Thanks Bruce for this well informed post. I am intrested in bowel gardening,

although I would prefer growing roses! ;-)

Could you explain what bowel gardening consist of?

I cannot eat kefir--sensivity to dairy--so I thought adding probiotics would

be a good idea.

Francine

[Guest guest]

On Mon, 5 Jul 2004 francilor@... wrote:

>

> I cannot take antifungals right now. Even the natural ones like garlic cause

> strong allergic reactions, so I will try probiotics first, testing if the

> most pared down version does not cause me any trouble.

[snip]

>

> Francine

>

Hi Francine,

Pau d'arco tea is a mild antifungal. It also works on the system, not

just the bowels. I've been drinking it for 3 months now, 3 glasses a day,

and have had NO bad effects from it. Positive effects include getting rid

of a persistent cough I've had for at least a decade, no headaches, and I

just noticed lately that a couple benign cysts I have just under the skin

(seems to be a hereditary problem in my family) are getting smaller.

Did you receive your shipment yet?

Zack

[Guest guest]

> Is it absolutely necessary to use probiotics with FOS or inulin?

> Thanks for you answer.

>

Not at all, if you are ingesting an optimal amount of prebiotics from

supplementation and/or food sources.

The idea of using prebiotics that are specifically used by probiotic bacteria is

to encourage their growth preferentially over the

growth of other species. Inulin is most specific to promote the growth of the

bifidobacteria which is the workhorse of the lower

colon. Lactobacilli which are the dominant beneficial species in the small

intestine will also use inulin but to a lesser degree.

The shorter chain FOS is also used by other species that reside in the bowel so

is less desirable than the longer molecular chain

lengths found in inulin. FOS as it is commonly available is a synthetic made

from sucrose using a process that was developed by the

Japanese. I prefer to use an inulin extract made from chicory roots.

For the most part probiotic supplementation is unnecessary if you are ingesting

enough prebiotics to promote large populations of

the beneficial bacteria which are already in the gut. Probiotics taken without

having enough food present for them to grow can't

grow and develop big enough populations for them to implant on the bowel wall

and edge out less desirable species. To me it would

seem a more effective strategy to provide food for the growth of beneficial

bowel bacteria than to take probiotic supplements. I

have heard it called bowel gardening. : -)

regards, Bruce

[Guest guest]

Dans un e-mail daté du 06/07/2004 14:04:42 Romance Standard Time,

beewilder@... a écrit :

>

> I am not familiar with how FOS and Inuline work with probiotics. I

> don't believe there is any need to increase the effectiveness of

> acidophilus. It does a pretty good job on its own. It's a good idea

> to keep things simple.

Yeah, I was just checking but personnally, I prefer to keep it simple. And

it's a never ending process: you need Acidophilus, plus something to feed the

Acidophilus, plus something to make this food more readily digested by the

acidophilus. Next thing you know, you go to the acidophilus doctor to find out

what

diet is best for them. :-)

Francine

[Guest guest]

Dear Francine,

I am not familiar with how FOS and Inuline work with probiotics. I

don't believe there is any need to increase the effectiveness of

acidophilus. It does a pretty good job on its own. It's a good idea

to keep things simple.

Bee

> Dans un e-mail daté du 05/07/2004 13:37:21 Romance Standard Time,

> beewilder@s... a écrit :

>

>

> > The idea with taking antifungals and probiotics at different

times of

> > the same day is that you are killing off the candida and then

> > implanting good bacteria. It is a constant battle. Kill off,

and

> > then implant. Kill off and implant.

>

> I cannot take antifungals right now. Even the natural ones like

garlic cause

> strong allergic reactions, so I will try probiotics first, testing

if the

> most pared down version does not cause me any trouble.

> My question was about the use of probiotics in conjunction with FOS

= Fructo

> Oligo Saccharides, or inuline,. Those substances are supposed to

feed the

> probiotics, thus allowing them to settle and develop within the

intestine. Some

> sites recommend it, otherwise the probiotics would just go thru

your system and

> their effect stops when you stop teaking them. But FOS, being a

form of

> sugar, should also feed the bad guys...Inuline is not supposed to

do that, but i

> don't know much about it.

> What do you think?

>

> Francine

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>I am not familiar with how FOS and Inuline work with probiotics.

Inulin is one of the main ways that plants have developed to store energy, in

addition to sugars and carbohydrates.

Is is widely found in vegetable material. Onions have 6 % inulin by dry weight,

Jerusalem artichoke 20%, Asparagus 15%, Wheat 4%,

Bananas only 0.7%.

Since inulin is indigestible by the human digestive system it is left available

for the bowel bacteria to use for fuel, and is their

most important food source. The optimal amount of inulin needed to support a

healthy bowel flora is around 12 grams a day. The

standard western diet often does not provide an optimal amount, usually not

nearly so.

>I don't believe there is any need to increase the effectiveness of acidophilus.

>It does a pretty good job on its own.

Acidophilus is important in the small intestine where bacterial populations are

1/100th of that in the large intestine.

In the lower bowel it's the bifidobacteria species that are predominate in a

healthy colon.

Bifidobacteria is the probiotic species that is found in mothers milk and is the

first to colonize the digestive tract of a breast

fed baby.

There is an extensive scientific study of inulin available on the web here:

http://members.shaw.ca/duncancrow/inulin_review.html

" Avoiding bowel dysbiosis with Inulin " is good also.

http://members.shaw.ca/duncancrow/inulin_prebiotic_probiotic.html

Duncan provides extensive references on his site for anyone who is interested in

the science.

regards, Bruce

[Guest guest]

>Thanks Bruce for this well informed post. I am interested in bowel gardening,

>although I would prefer growing roses! ;-)

>Could you explain what bowel gardening consist of?

>I cannot eat kefir--sensitivity to dairy--so I thought adding probiotics would

>be a good idea.

I borrowed the term " bowel gardening " from Dr. Bernard Jensen's book " Tissue

cleansing through bowel management " .

It's a very good book to read for anyone concerned with bowel health.

It is available online here:

http://www.curezone.com/books/online/bowel/default.asp

RE: bowel gardening

First do no harm. Avoid taking into your system substances that are harmful to

the beneficial bowel bacteria.

-Antibiotics should be avoided. Half of the antibiotics produced are fed to farm

animals as a prophylactic measure against disease

due to crowding and unsanitary living conditions.

-Tap water, there are 60 chemicals of varying toxicity that are allowed to be

added to tap water. " Airing " the water does not remove

them.

-Alcohol is bad for the bowel bacteria.

-Additives and preservatives from commercially manufactured food stuffs.

Anything unnatural that was made by a chemist and is put in

food or a pill really.

Eat foods that support the bowel bacteria.

-Cultured vegetables are excellent. They contain lactic acid bacteria and their

metabolic products such as lactic acid and

bacteriocins that acidify the bowel and reduce competition from undesirable

species in the bowel promoting the ideal environments

for beneficial bacteria to thrive.

-Kefir and yogurt are also excellent foods. I believe that to introduce

probiotic species into the bowel it is important for then to

be still in their substrate, the medium they were cultured in. The numbers of

bacteria in a fresh dairy culture is hundreds or

thousands of times what is freeze dried and packaged into a capsule. I think

they get a much better start and are more vigorous in

colonizing the colon when taken with their culture medium.

-Beneficial bacteria grow only on vegetable material and dairy products as far

as I know.

Many people who are not able to tolerate the pasteurized homogenized commercial

milk that which many consider to be unhealthy are

able to use raw milk or cultured milk when their health is at a better level.

Water kefir might be of benefit for someone who can't use dairy products.

If you are using probiotic capsules it is best to take them with cold water on

an empty stomach and give them 15 minutes or so to

leave the stomach. The cold water flushes from the stomach faster than room temp

water.

I do use inulin, usually in a smoothie with kefir.

I think it can be very useful to normalize the bowel bacteria.

Mostly I rely on diet to provide nutrition for myself and my bowel garden. : -)

I have a big vegetable garden and eats a lot of veggies often raw but usually

stir fried or steamed or in soups.

I like fresh vegetable juices too. I also eat a lot of cultured foods, miso,

kefir, cultured vegetables and fermented juices.

I always eat cultured foods raw to preserve the beneficial bacteria and

vitamins.

Sally Fallons book Nourishing Traditions has numerous recipes for cultured

foods.

It is my sincere belief that if a person wants to really be healthy they have to

leave the standard western diet behind.

One could look into things like food combining, raw foods and vegetable juices,

liver flushing, parasites, electromedicine, Weston

A. Price, coconut oil, wheatgrass, sprouting, etc.

Everyone has to develop their own strategy for caring for their health.

I try to eat simply and not to excess.

regards, Bruce

[Guest guest]

Dans un e-mail daté du 07/07/2004 22:53:01 Romance Standard Time,

stordock@... a écrit :

> is my sincere belief that if a person wants to really be healthy they have

> to leave the standard western diet behind.

> One could look into things like food combining, raw foods and vegetable

> juices, liver flushing, parasites, electromedicine, Weston

> A. Price, coconut oil, wheatgrass, sprouting, etc.

>

> Everyone has to develop their own strategy for caring for their health.

> I try to eat simply and not to excess.

>

> regards, Bruce

Thanks for this very informative answer, Bruce.

Francine

[Guest guest]

Dear Bruce,

Thanks for the great information about probiotics. What form/brand

of inulin do you consider is best, and how much would be taken per

day. Or do you regulate the dose according to how much probiotic is

ingested?

Bee

> >I am not familiar with how FOS and Inuline work with probiotics.

>

> Inulin is one of the main ways that plants have developed to store

energy, in addition to sugars and carbohydrates.

> Is is widely found in vegetable material. Onions have 6 % inulin by

dry weight, Jerusalem artichoke 20%, Asparagus 15%, Wheat 4%,

> Bananas only 0.7%.

>

> Since inulin is indigestible by the human digestive system it is

left available for the bowel bacteria to use for fuel, and is their

> most important food source. The optimal amount of inulin needed to

support a healthy bowel flora is around 12 grams a day. The

> standard western diet often does not provide an optimal amount,

usually not nearly so.

>

> >I don't believe there is any need to increase the effectiveness of

acidophilus.

> >It does a pretty good job on its own.

>

> Acidophilus is important in the small intestine where bacterial

populations are 1/100th of that in the large intestine.

> In the lower bowel it's the bifidobacteria species that are

predominate in a healthy colon.

> Bifidobacteria is the probiotic species that is found in mothers

milk and is the first to colonize the digestive tract of a breast

> fed baby.

>

>

> There is an extensive scientific study of inulin available on the

web here:

> http://members.shaw.ca/duncancrow/inulin_review.html

>

> " Avoiding bowel dysbiosis with Inulin " is good also.

> http://members.shaw.ca/duncancrow/inulin_prebiotic_probiotic.html

>

> Duncan provides extensive references on his site for anyone who is

interested in the science.

>

> regards, Bruce

[Guest guest]

> Thanks for the great information about probiotics. What form/brand

> of inulin do you consider is best, and how much would be taken per

> day. Or do you regulate the dose according to how much probiotic is

> ingested?

I would consider the best inulin to come from vegetable foods you eat.

Imo there are always cofactors in whole foods that are good to have in their

natural state.

The inulin you can buy at the health food store will likely be extracted from

chicory or dahlias.

I have the kind that is made form chicory roots and extracted with water. The

brand name is Chicolin.

Most of the brands would be more or less the same I'm sure. As long as they are

from a natural source.

The type Duncan Crow has on his web site might be the best for people with

candida because it is sugar free having had the 6% or so

of naturally occurring sugar removed. He is the only retail source of the sugar

free inulin.

Duncan recommends from 12 to 15 grams per day from all sources.

I don't think you can get too much.

The label on the jar of inulin I have advises 1 to 3 teaspoons per day.

Duncans instructions:

" The instructions for using inulin are one

rounded teaspoonful or 5 grams, three times daily, sprinkled into

water. You can also take it with food. You can also use a level

teaspoon four times daily.The key is to sprinkle it or put it gently into moving

water,

you can't drop it into the water by the teaspoon or it will make chunks. "

Inulin powder is hydrophilic and does tend to form sticky chunks if your not

careful.

Mixed into water it is clear and almost tasteless. It has only a slight sweet

taste.

Usually when I make a smoothie I will add some in.

The jar I have says its good for cooking, baking, jams, desserts and everyday

use.

regards, Bruce

[Guest guest]

> Duncan wrote:

>

> > Besides, hardly anyone needs to " seed " their bowel culture; that's

> > already done. It makes more sense to simply feed your native culture

> > an inexpensive prebiotic that we only get at about 1/5 of historic

> > levels and let nature take its course. This has been working for

> > more than 5,000 years and it's still a reliable way to correct bowel

> > flora. Where they used to use whole food broth to do it, we also

> > have the option of using just the food component that does the work

> > -- inulin.

>

> I have heard that when you take probiotics orally that it is

> problematical

> whether or not they will survive their trip through the stomach to the

> gut.

>

> Should this be a concern? What is the best form in which to take

> probiotics to ensure that they actually get to where they are supposed

> to?

>

> Thanks.

>

>

,

It's been proven that some probiotic bacteria do make it through to

the bowel. Feeding them will allow them to proliferate and outcompete

on the bowel lining, a crucial position to occupy.

The reason this is crucial is that the bowel lumen is where the anti-

cancer enzymes are needed, the SCFAs are absorbed, and the irritating

toxins that compromize the bowel lining are produced by bad bacteria.

That being said, you'd need an awful lot of probiotics to make a real

difference, and then you'd need to feed them anyway so they occupy

this position. I've done the math on how much one might need, and

posted it in an article, here:

http://zeek.ca/4u/article.php?op=Print & sid=173

Duncan Crow

[Guest guest]

> I don't know why they say that it is " non-digestable " - I

> have no

> problems digesting kefir or kombucha tea at all.

It's prebiotics that are indigestible, not probiotics. Note your

next paragraph....

> Prebiotics are non-digestible food components that increase the growth

> of these probiotic organisms in the gastrointestinal tract.

> These compounds are not digested in the small intestine, passing

> instead to the colon where they serve as fermentation substrates for

> probiotic bacteria including Bifidobacteria and Lactobacillus strains.

>

>

Duncan

[Guest guest]

Thanks Duncan! I read that but somehow it didn't quite sink in.

Blessings

Shan

> > I don't know why they say that it is " non-digestable " - I

> > have no

> > problems digesting kefir or kombucha tea at all.

>

> It's prebiotics that are indigestible, not probiotics. Note your

> next paragraph....

>

> > Prebiotics are non-digestible food components that increase the

growth

> > of these probiotic organisms in the gastrointestinal tract.

> > These compounds are not digested in the small intestine, passing

> > instead to the colon where they serve as fermentation substrates for

> > probiotic bacteria including Bifidobacteria and Lactobacillus

strains.

> >

> >

>

> Duncan