acid/alkaline

[Guest guest]

>Does anyone know how the acidic content of all these fermented foods fits into

the information we read about our bodies being too acidic and that's why there

is so much cancer and other disease? Many 'experts' are saying we should

alkalize our systems. Are we defeating that purpose with fermented foods, or is

there something else that happens in the fermentation process which counteracts

the acidic content?

>Carol

The acid/alkali blood thing is a gross simplification for the most part (and

some of what is written is just downright false). Parts of your body are

supposed to be acidic (your stomach for example!) and parts are neutral and

parts are alkali. You body keeps the PH within a very narrow range ... if your

blood ph gets out of that range you get really, really sick and end up in the

emergency room.

A solution is acidic when it has more free H+ ions (hydrogen) and more alkali

when it has more OH- ions (Hydroxide). Hydrogen and Oxygen are both in water,

but they get split when free cations are anions are dissolved in a solution.

It's easy to change a solution from acidic to alkali by adding a base, like

adding baking soda to vinegar. Your body can produce bases and acids when it

needs to to make the solution acidic or alkali, like it produces HCL to make

your stomach very acid. Your stomach is SOOOO acid that adding some fermented

vegies really doesn't change it much. When the stomach empties it's contents

into the upper intestine, the body adds alkalii and neutralizes it.

The folks that talk about the blood acidity are talking about the amounts of

" alkalizing " foods though, which is a different thing. Alkalizing foods have

chemicals in them, like Calcium and Potassium, I think, that are used to

neutralize other foods. I don't know how true this is, though it does seem from

my reading that when you eat meat, your body needs calcium to process it (most

carnivores eat the bones etc. with the meat, so that isn't an issue for them).

In any case, fermented vegies have a lot of the " alkalizing " chemicals, plus

extra calcium if you use powdered dried anchovies. See:

http://www.felinefuture.com/nutrition/bonesandcalcium.php

A whole animal with bones has a Calcium:Phosphorus ratio of 1.1:1. Meat alone

has a Ca:P ratio of 1:20. Now, Phosphorus is by nature attracted to Calcium -

forming a chemical bond: Calcium phosphate. If meat where to be ingested without

the correct amount of bone, the Phosphorus in meat would draw Calcium from the

cat's bones - resulting in disease such as bone deformities, limping, muscle

failure, fractures ... The same happens in humans. A diet of hamburger and soft

drinks is very high in Phosphorus, and people start to suffer from Osteoporosis

as a direct result. The cat has a very high requirement for Calcium due to the

high level of Phosphorus in her nearly all meat diet. As omnivores, people

require less Calcium, if eating a plant based diet. Herbivores require even less

Calcium, and all the Calcium they need is contained within the plants they eat,

which also contain small amounts Phosphorus - resulting in a proper ratio.

So eat your kimchi!

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

Heidi Jean;

I love your posts. I'm getting an education just reading my e-mail. Just a

question if you don't mind. I like to brush my teeth with baking soda and

hydrogen peroxide. I asked my doctor if he saw any problem with that and I

don't think he really knew anything about free radicals etc. Do you see any

problem with this?

regards,

Rick

Re: Acid/alkaline

>Does anyone know how the acidic content of all these fermented foods fits

into the information we read about our bodies being too acidic and that's why

there is so much cancer and other disease? Many 'experts' are saying we should

alkalize our systems. Are we defeating that purpose with fermented foods, or is

there something else that happens in the fermentation process which counteracts

the acidic content?

>Carol

The acid/alkali blood thing is a gross simplification for the most part (and

some of what is written is just downright false). Parts of your body are

supposed to be acidic (your stomach for example!) and parts are neutral and

parts are alkali. You body keeps the PH within a very narrow range ... if your

blood ph gets out of that range you get really, really sick and end up in the

emergency room.

A solution is acidic when it has more free H+ ions (hydrogen) and more alkali

when it has more OH- ions (Hydroxide). Hydrogen and Oxygen are both in water,

but they get split when free cations are anions are dissolved in a solution.

It's easy to change a solution from acidic to alkali by adding a base, like

adding baking soda to vinegar. Your body can produce bases and acids when it

needs to to make the solution acidic or alkali, like it produces HCL to make

your stomach very acid. Your stomach is SOOOO acid that adding some fermented

vegies really doesn't change it much. When the stomach empties it's contents

into the upper intestine, the body adds alkalii and neutralizes it.

The folks that talk about the blood acidity are talking about the amounts of

" alkalizing " foods though, which is a different thing. Alkalizing foods have

chemicals in them, like Calcium and Potassium, I think, that are used to

neutralize other foods. I don't know how true this is, though it does seem from

my reading that when you eat meat, your body needs calcium to process it (most

carnivores eat the bones etc. with the meat, so that isn't an issue for them).

In any case, fermented vegies have a lot of the " alkalizing " chemicals, plus

extra calcium if you use powdered dried anchovies. See:

http://www.felinefuture.com/nutrition/bonesandcalcium.php

A whole animal with bones has a Calcium:Phosphorus ratio of 1.1:1. Meat alone

has a Ca:P ratio of 1:20. Now, Phosphorus is by nature attracted to Calcium -

forming a chemical bond: Calcium phosphate. If meat where to be ingested without

the correct amount of bone, the Phosphorus in meat would draw Calcium from the

cat's bones - resulting in disease such as bone deformities, limping, muscle

failure, fractures ... The same happens in humans. A diet of hamburger and soft

drinks is very high in Phosphorus, and people start to suffer from Osteoporosis

as a direct result. The cat has a very high requirement for Calcium due to the

high level of Phosphorus in her nearly all meat diet. As omnivores, people

require less Calcium, if eating a plant based diet. Herbivores require even less

Calcium, and all the Calcium they need is contained within the plants they eat,

which also contain small amounts Phosphorus - resulting in a proper ratio.

So eat your kimchi!

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

Deana,

>>Very good question, Carol. First, I have read that cancer is unheard of

in people whose intestinal microflora are balanced (I think WAPF Dr. Tom

Cowan said this). Fermented foods will certainly help in this respect.

And isn't cancer often the focus of the acid overload worries?<<

~~~Yes, but it's also involved in parasites, dysbiosis and pathogenic bacterias,

as well as other health problems, I'm sure. Cancer is just the scariest, I

think. See below:

" Although many people are concerned about acidity, my experience is that

many people are actually too alkaline. Acidity from healthy lactic acid

helps bring their pH back to the normal range needed for optimal

health. The acidity of kefir is as low as a pH of 3, consisting of

..85-1.5% lactic acid.

~~~The above is indicative of things I've read before that seem conflicting to

me. He writes as though a ph of 3 is low acid content, but human milk has a ph

of 7. From what I've read, when you're talking about a low ph, it means the

item is highly acidic. Is it just me, who is misunderstanding something?

I guess the next question is are fermented veggies producing

right-rotating LA?

~~~True, because something made with milk would probably be quite different than

something made with veggies.

Carol

Regards,

Deanna

[Guest guest]

> The acidity of kefir is as low as a pH of 3, consisting of

> .85-1.5% lactic acid. - Dr. Cousens

>

> ~~~The above is indicative of things I've read before that seem

> conflicting to me. He writes as though a ph of 3 is low acid content,

> but human milk has a ph of 7.

Carol,

I think his wording is not the best. The pH scale goes from 0-14, IIRC;

7 being neutral, < 7 an acid, > 7 a base. I think he is trying to say

kefir has a pH as low as 3, but he botches it, doesn't he?

I'd say, stick with Heidi's answers. Not only has she got a tight grasp

on organic chemistry, she's a practical, rational kind of gal. At least

that's how I see it.

Deanna

[Guest guest]

>>The acid/alkali blood thing is a gross simplification for the most part (and

some of what is written is just downright false). Parts of your body are

supposed to be acidic (your stomach for example!) and parts are neutral and

parts are alkali. You body keeps the PH within a very narrow range ... if your

blood ph gets out of that range you get really, really sick and end up in the

emergency room.<<

~~~When they talk about body ph, they're talking about blood ph. And, while it

can't be too far off or you'd be at the ER, it can be off by a enough to cause

health problems that aren't as critical as ones that would send you straight to

the ER. (Things like cancer.)

So eat your kimchi!

~~~I will, but now I'm not sure when it will be ready. It was on the counter

for 2-3 days, and now has been in the refrigerator for a couple of days. Is it

ready? (My very first batch.) :-)

Carol

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

>Heidi Jean;

>I love your posts. I'm getting an education just reading my e-mail. Just a

question if you don't mind. I like to brush my teeth with baking soda and

hydrogen peroxide. I asked my doctor if he saw any problem with that and I

don't think he really knew anything about free radicals etc. Do you see any

problem with this?

>regards,

>Rick

Thanks!

I don't think there is a problem ... I've used baking soda for tooth brushing a

lot and it worked great, and I had a dentist that recommended a half H2O2 mouth

rinse after surgery ... I've never mixed them, but they are both alkali so they

shouldn't interact. They break down into water, salt, CO2 and oxygen. As for

free radicals ... yeah, H2O2 is free radical all right, but in your mouth it's

not really intacting with your cells much and the stuff doesn't stick around

very long. But when I tried the ol' H2O2 in your ear thing I got a worse sinus

infection than without it, so I don't trust it much ... it is such a strong

antibiotic that it gets rid of protective bacteria that SHOULD be there. So I'd

probably not use it myself unless there was some need (like gingivitis) ...

baking soda kills bacteria awfully well all by itself. Also I've never heard of

using it for teeth ... what is it supposed to do?

>

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

>~~~When they talk about body ph, they're talking about blood ph. And, while it

can't be too far off or you'd be at the ER, it can be off by a enough to cause

health problems that aren't as critical as ones that would send you straight to

the ER. (Things like cancer.)

Well, consider this counterargument: your body produces lactic acid every time

you exercise, and your blood thereby goes slightly acidic. Also if you pant. So

.... one would expect athletes to have high cancer rates?

>So eat your kimchi!

>

>~~~I will, but now I'm not sure when it will be ready. It was on the counter

for 2-3 days, and now has been in the refrigerator for a couple of days. Is it

ready? (My very first batch.) :-)

Smell it, then taste it. If it tastes good to you, it's done. Some folks like it

done-er than others.

>

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

>>Well, consider this counterargument: your body produces lactic acid every time

you exercise, and your blood thereby goes slightly acidic. Also if you pant. So

.... one would expect athletes to have high cancer rates?<<

~~~I don't think they'd recommend taking ones ph after exercise, but I'm not

really arguing, because you've convinced me that fermented veggies are ok.

That's all I cared about. I don't know that much about the ph of the body.

I've only been quoting what I've run into while researching health problems on

the web. I don't believe or disbelieve the acid/alkaline/cancer theories. Just

playing devil's advocate. That's how I reassure myself and learn. :-)

>>Smell it, then taste it. If it tastes good to you, it's done. Some folks like

it done-er than others.<<

~~~I guess I'm just looking for the prime time to eat it, in order to get the

most benefit from the fermentation. Being chronically ill, I tend to decide if

food is good or not based on how healthy it is, not so much on how it tastes.

Carol

>

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

> ~~~I guess I'm just looking for the prime time to eat it, in order to

> get the most benefit from the fermentation.

Another fine question, Carol. Wouldn't it be nice to see a graph that

plotted nutrient levels against time, using (at least) three factors of

consideration: vitamins, enzymes and lacto-bacteria?

Deanna

[Guest guest]

>>Another fine question, Carol. Wouldn't it be nice to see a graph that

plotted nutrient levels against time, using (at least) three factors of

consideration: vitamins, enzymes and lacto-bacteria?

Deanna<<

~~~That's the problem with me - I always think information like that MUST exist

somewhere :-) (This is probably why I get accused of asking too many

questions too.) But really, I would think there is some sort of information on

when the optimal time to stop fermentation is, even if the individual bacterias

and vitamins are not measured individually. I've seen pretty big differences

in various recipes timing-wise. We are a very taste conscious society, though,

aren't we?

Carol

[Guest guest]

>

>~~~I don't think they'd recommend taking ones ph after exercise, but I'm not

really arguing, because you've convinced me that fermented veggies are ok.

That's all I cared about. I don't know that much about the ph of the body.

I've only been quoting what I've run into while researching health problems on

the web. I don't believe or disbelieve the acid/alkaline/cancer theories. Just

playing devil's advocate. That's how I reassure myself and learn. :-)

Hee hee. Yeah, me too. I learn more from " online debates " than any other way. I

nevere really cared about the whole acid/base thing til I got in another

discussion or two.

One thing I just found out while perusing THIS time is that eating acid actually

CAN make your blood more acidic, which I didn't realize. Now I knew this from

yogurt: acidophilus produces the D (D###ed for mnemonic) isomer, but the body

produces the L (Loved) isomer. The L can be metabolized into glucose: the D

can't, and has to be excreted through the kidneys. When you eat yogurt, your

blood goes acidic briefly. But if you have a lot of acidophilus in your

intestine, you can get acidosis by eating carbs. This shows up a lot in folks

with severe intestinal problems: but if just plain D-lactate is eaten in large

amounts, it can be toxic. Kefir has a mix of bacteria, so no one bacteria tends

to take over, and my understanding is that it produces a mix of isomers. Kimchi

I'm not sure about. But in any case, when they fed healthy volunteers yogurt,

their blood DID go acidic for a bit, then normalized ... and eating yogurt and

other probiotics seems to *promote* health in many ways (as does exercise, which

also makes for acidic blood) so I can't see a case for a bit of acidity in the

blood being bad.

http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/full/122/11/839

Most cases occur after the ingestion of carbohydrates and eventual absorption of

d-lactate from the affected intestinal segment, but others occur after the

consumption of dairy products or lactobacillus tablets

<http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/full/122/11/#R2-5>[2,4]. Dahlquist and

colleagues <http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/full/122/11/#R5-5>[5] reproduced

the syndrome by overfeeding carbohydrates to humans with previous

jejunoileostomy.

Transient neurologic symptoms are the hallmark of d-lactic acidosis: Headache,

weakness, delirium, visual disturbances, dysarthria, ataxia, cranial nerve

palsies, changes in affect, and even transient hypothalamic dysfunction have

been reported <http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/full/122/11/#R2-5>[2-14], but

the mechanism explaining these manifestations remains unknown.

Treatment has been successful with carbohydrate restriction and oral

antibiotics, such as vancomycin, metronidazole, clindamycin, tetracycline,

neomycin, and kanamycin

<http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/full/122/11/#R2-5>[2-6,10-13]. In some

patients, however, d-lactic acidosis recurred despite the use of antimicrobial

agents; in other instances, their potentially causative role was not addressed

<http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/full/122/11/#R6-5>[6,13]. The d-lactic

acidosis syndrome developed in a patient who had received tetracycline

<http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/full/122/11/#R3-5>[3], in another who had

received metronidazole

<http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/full/122/11/#R13-5>[13], and in a patient who

had received both agents

<http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/full/122/11/#R5-5>[5].

-----------------

I think this is really an important article, because a lot of folks who take

antibiotics tend to take acidophilus supplements. Bad idea! Kefir is much

better!

Also interesting from the acid/base controversy viewpoint is that the Ayurvedic

medicine folks tend to put citrus in the " alkaline " category, but too much

citric acid can also make your blood acidic:

http://www.biology.arizona.edu/biochemistry/problem_sets/medph/08t.html

http://www.biology.arizona.edu/biochemistry/problem_sets/medph/05t.html

Suppose your patient has ingested an acid. The [H+] will obviously go up,

pushing the bicarbonate equation to the left:

CO2 + H2O [H2CO3] H+ + HCO3-

Notice that, as the equilibrium shifts to the left, HCO3- levels are also

affected (consumed, in this case). One could argue that pH (since it directly

relates to [H+]) is the " primary " defect, but pH can be adjusted by compensatory

mechanisms and so is not usually the most reliable measure. HCO3-, by its

fluctuation from normal in response to metabolic (or exogenous) insults, is

really what gives you the most reliable indicator of a " metabolic " problem.

Basically your body buffers acid foods with bicarbonate, but if it has a problem

getting enough bicarbonate you could get slightly acidic. I found that really

interesting! So folks with kidney problems maybe COULD have a problem with more

acidic foods? (or exercise?)

Kimchi might produce more L. The following article also talks about how the

Asian veggie ferments remove cholesterol from the media (so might remove it from

your gut).

http://ss.jircas.affrc.go.jp/engpage/jarq/38-2/38-02-06.pdf

Among the strains, 27 strains were coccoid in

shape, formed L(+)-lactic acid only from glucose, and

grew at 10ºC but not at 45ºC, in 6.5% NaCl.

Strain no. A620 nm

>>>Smell it, then taste it. If it tastes good to you, it's done. Some folks like

it done-er than others.<<

>

>~~~I guess I'm just looking for the prime time to eat it, in order to get the

most benefit from the fermentation. Being chronically ill, I tend to decide if

food is good or not based on how healthy it is, not so much on how it tastes.

That is an issue, if your health is delicate! Personally I very much believe

though, that you have a very amazing chemistry set in your head, and if your

body knows it wants something, it will taste and smell good (unless it is one of

those addictive kinds of things ...) and vice versa. My own tastes have changed

amazingly ... sometimes I crave really sour foods, sometimes really fishy foods,

sometimes fat foods, sometimes lean foods. What I do track though is how I feel

*after* I eat it ... if I feel blah after, I figure it's not all that good for

me. I don't force myself to eat anything because " it's healthy " anymore, after I

found out that many of the foods I was forcing myself to eat were really, really

bad for me personally though generally thought to be healthy.

Fermented foods go through different stages, and it's hard to say what is " best "

for everyone. Kraut is generally thought to be " best " after 6 months or so, but

I think Kimchi is best after 2 days, and after a month it's too sour for me.

>

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

I imagine citrus solids end up being more alkaline, than say citrus juice,

after mineral recovery in the large intestine. The zest and whole slices

are probably more beneficial than just the juice.

Darrell

[Guest guest]

I did a little research on lemons and most of what I read said that lemon juice

is acidic, but the rind is alkaline, which backs up what you're saying. I've

read some cleanses that have you pulverize the whole lemon and drink it.

Carol

I imagine citrus solids end up being more alkaline, than say citrus juice,

after mineral recovery in the large intestine. The zest and whole slices

are probably more beneficial than just the juice.

Darrell

[Guest guest]

From what I understand lemon is acidic but is alkaline forming in the body. The

effect on the body inside is what is most improtant.

Tonio

I did a little research on lemons and most of what I read said that lemon

juice is acidic, but the rind is alkaline, which backs up what you're saying.

I've read some cleanses that have you pulverize the whole lemon and drink it.

Carol

[Guest guest]

I was actually talking about the effect inside the body, with my post - juice is

acidifying and rind is alkalizing. Wonder if it's really known for sure,

because there is so much garbled information on it.

Carol

From what I understand lemon is acidic but is alkaline forming in the body. The

effect on the body inside is what is most improtant.

Tonio

[Guest guest]

I was under the impression that it was the calcium content of the lemon juice

that made it have an alkalizing effect on the body?

Beau

Re: Re: Acid/alkaline

I was actually talking about the effect inside the body, with my post - juice

is acidifying and rind is alkalizing. Wonder if it's really known for sure,

because there is so much garbled information on it.

Carol

From what I understand lemon is acidic but is alkaline forming in the body.

The effect on the body inside is what is most improtant.

Tonio

[Guest guest]

I understood that all fruits--except persimmons--are alkalinizing.

OTOH eating all that fruit causes calcium to be leached from the

bones--maybe that's the alkalinizing effect? I'm rehabbing a ten-year

vegan/fruitarian now. Not pretty. no.

B.

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 19:57:45 -0800, Carol <cah@...> wrote:

> I was actually talking about the effect inside the body, with my post -

> juice is acidifying and rind is alkalizing. Wonder if it's really known for

> sure, because there is so much garbled information on it.

> Carol

>

> From what I understand lemon is acidic but is alkaline forming in the body.

> The effect on the body inside is what is most improtant.

> Tonio

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Though I don't know who this guy is, and at the end of the article he appears to

be recommending a product, (although he doesn't provide a link or information on

where to purchase it), here is the most rational and intelligent sounding

discourse I've read on this subject. It makes a lot of sense to me. I hope the

link works, as it was a PDF file originally, but I used the HTML link in order

to post a link here. It goes into whether or not eating acid foods causes a too

acidic system, and whether or not acidosis is a problem in our modern times.

http://tinyurl.com/43djv

Carol

>>I understood that all fruits--except persimmons--are alkalinizing.

OTOH eating all that fruit causes calcium to be leached from the

bones--maybe that's the alkalinizing effect? I'm rehabbing a ten-year

vegan/fruitarian now. Not pretty. no.

B.<<

[Guest guest]

>I understood that all fruits--except persimmons--are alkalinizing.

>OTOH eating all that fruit causes calcium to be leached from the

>bones--maybe that's the alkalinizing effect? I'm rehabbing a ten-year

>vegan/fruitarian now. Not pretty. no.

> B.

Well, you see this is where the whole bit about acid/base gets confusing.

One side is talking about the minerals FROM the fruit/vegies (esp. calcium and

potassium). The other is talking about the actual acids in the fruit (H+).

My basic take from the reading I've done is that humans are designed to eat

LOTS of calcium and protein ... like, meat with the bones! Our ancestors

ate the little bones, lots of stuff like whole fish, insects, and baby birds.

Studies of

the c*** of early humans shows they ate a lot of bones, fur, scales, sand.

Calcium deficient diet was not an issue! They would have been great on

Fear Factor. Most non-Westernized cultures still eat things like whole baby

fish.

A lot of the internal processes require calcium, eating fruit might be one of

them,

and if you don't get the calcium from food the body steals it from

the bones. Most Westerners just don't get enough calcium. Plus they

have messed up digestion so don't have enough Vit. K, and don't

get enough Vit D either, so they don't use the calcium they do get.

Most of the discussion about " acid " foods though, is from a vegetarian

viewpoint, and boils down to getting enough minerals from vegies and

avoiding meat (because it is " acid " ). But if you want minerals, bones

are the way to go, they have a lot more minerals than vegies ever could!

I don't know what the mineral content is of a pulverized fish-head

mixed in with kimchi, but it's gotta be up there ...

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

>1. birds eat lots of greens. They need porous bones in order to fly. Maybe

they need to eat the greens with oxalic acid to maximize minerals (other than

calcium) but minimize the calcium)

Actually a healthy bird does NOT have porous bones. I have some chickens that

are less hybrid, and do fly, and have those nice light flight bones. But their

bones are really, really hard on the outside, nice calcification. A very thin

layer of very strong calcified bone, surrounding a big hollow area, like a soda

straw.

Less healthy chickens get those porous bones, not well calcified at all. Your

average store chicken you can almost run your nail into the bone.

Another example is beef ... I was shocked at how HEAVY the bones are from grass

fed beef. Really, really thick and strong. Commercial beef is like half the

weight and seems porous. Grass fed beef gets more oxalates, but it doesn't seem

to affect their bones. I suspect they have oxalate eating bacteria in their

rumens. Humans should have oxalate eating bacteria, but apparently some of us

don't because of antibiotics or digestion issues.

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

>Though I don't know who this guy is, and at the end of the article he appears

to be recommending a product, (although he doesn't provide a link or information

on where to purchase it), here is the most rational and intelligent sounding

discourse I've read on this subject. It makes a lot of sense to me. I hope the

link works, as it was a PDF file originally, but I used the HTML link in order

to post a link here. It goes into whether or not eating acid foods causes a too

acidic system, and whether or not acidosis is a problem in our modern times.

>

>http://tinyurl.com/43djv

>

>Carol

Great article! As for the product:

In support of this important dietary shift, Oasis has created MetaGreens™.

MetaGreens

contains a extraordinary mix of land and sea vegetables, all of which are rich

in alkaline

minerals. Importantly, these greens are pesticide-free, grown on high-nutrient

soil that

has never been chemically fertilized. Harvested at the peak of nutrient value,

these

ingredients are processed by low-temperature dehydration to retain all the raw

food

goodness and manufactured in small batches to maximize freshness

Why not BONES??? I still don't get why all these people keep emphasizing

greens for minerals. To get healthy birds, you feed them oyster shells.

To get healthy plants, you add bone meal. There was a recipe for

" fermented bone balls " I saw once ... fermenting a bunch of bones til

they fall apart, there's the ticket. Or ground up bones in kimchi ...

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

>>Most Westerners just don't get enough calcium. Plus they

have messed up digestion so don't have enough Vit. K, and don't

get enough Vit D either, so they don't use the calcium they do get.<<

~~~Don't forget magnesium. It is essential to calcium uptake, and it is even

more depleted in our food sources than calcium is.

Carol

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

Heidi,

I agree with you if for no other reason than I'd much rather see people doing it

naturally than from a powder or a pill. How about juicing too, to get the

calcium from greens? Wouldn't that be a better option than eating a powder?

No matter how natural they claim it is, it can't be as natural as the pure food.

(Assuming you're eating good produce, of course.)

Carol

Why not BONES??? I still don't get why all these people keep emphasizing

greens for minerals. To get healthy birds, you feed them oyster shells.

To get healthy plants, you add bone meal. There was a recipe for

" fermented bone balls " I saw once ... fermenting a bunch of bones til

they fall apart, there's the ticket. Or ground up bones in kimchi ...

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

Darn it! I just went to the market and I forgot to look for dried

fishies! And I got all of the other kimchi ingredients

Deanna

>

> I don't know what the mineral content is of a pulverized fish-head

> mixed in with kimchi, but it's gotta be up there ...

>

>

>

> Heidi Jean

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Heidi,

I've been thinking about this for some time now and still haven't sussed a way

of pulverizing the bones. I've been thinking about doing a long EM brew with

tons of chicken bones, and maybe the smallest beef bones I can find. I've also

been thinking about doing it with egg shells.

I suppose I'll just have to try it and see what happens. I'm already making EM

brews with green powders and other such things. They come out very delicious,

and I suspect very nutritious.

Fascinating discussions and info on all this stuff. But is it all really

accurate??

Tonio

Why not BONES??? I still don't get why all these people keep emphasizing

greens for minerals. To get healthy birds, you feed them oyster shells.

To get healthy plants, you add bone meal. There was a recipe for

" fermented bone balls " I saw once ... fermenting a bunch of bones til

they fall apart, there's the ticket. Or ground up bones in kimchi ...

Heidi Jean