Re: Scoli original curve & Arms over head & Low neck Fatigue

[Guest guest]

Jeri,

My

fusion starts at T4. I haven’t had revision. I, also have lots of

shoulder/neck pain. Although Dr. Lenke said my fusion is fine in that

area, he agreed the pain could be because of the compensation we do to

counteract the degeneration of our lower spine. In other words, we hold

ourselves differently to try to compensate for our additional curvature.

From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of bocce_fun

Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008

1:09 PM

Subject: [ ] Scoli

original curve & Arms over head & Low neck Fatigue

I'm having more and more questions as pre-surg workup

approaches...

Original curve correction-

I'm wondering if/how much scoliosis curve correction you got from the

revision surgery.

Arms overhead (after recovery)-

I'm wondering if/how farther you are able to raise your arms straight

overhead since revision. In the last few years I've noticed I can't

reach " to the sky " , but more toward a nearby mountain top...

My joints are looser than the average person, and I used to be able

to stretch them just past vertical.

I can definitely feel my " mountain top " reach affects the area where

my rod is broken, in the T4-T5 region. I'm pretty sure this will be

corrected, but just wondering about your experiences.

Neck/shoulders fatigue-

I have constant neck/shoulder area fatigue and pain. Do you have

experience with this... probably from trying to look forward when my

body wants me to look down?

I'll be asking Dr. T all these questions on Jan 14, but just

wondering if I'm odd or in the un-odd ball park!

Thanks all. Jeri

[Guest guest]

,

A couple of hours ago, I had my husband position my head so that it

was inline with my upper back. He went by the position where there

was no crease in my skin. I was amazed at how far down I was looking

at that point. That told me that I've been trying to hold my head

way farther upright that my back would normally support for any

length of time.

A few minutes later I took enough ibuprofen to take away the

pain/fatigue, laid down w/ my neck as straight as I possibly could,

braced it that way with pillow support, and napped.

When I got up in the very first minute, I thought, gee, the advil

really worked! For the first few seconds standing,I made sure to

keep my head positioned as hubby indicated was straight. I felt

great! The minute I took off walking, the pain/fatigue kicked in.

I feel so stupid that I never realized the cause before. I've had

Harrington rods since 1980, hip pain for 10-15 yrs, but this

neck/shoulder pain/fatigue has only been a problem for about 5 yrs.

Definite deterioration. I'm ready to get this whole mess fixed.

January 29, here I come.

Jeri

>

> Jeri,

>

> My fusion starts at T4. I haven't had revision. I, also

have lots

> of shoulder/neck pain. Although Dr. Lenke said my fusion is fine

in that

> area, he agreed the pain could be because of the compensation we do

to

> counteract the degeneration of our lower spine. In other words, we

hold

> ourselves differently to try to compensate for our additional

curvature.

>

>

>

> _____

>

> From:

> [mailto: ] On Behalf Of bocce_fun

> Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 1:09 PM

>

> Subject: [ ] Scoli original curve & Arms over head &

Low neck

> Fatigue

>

>

>

> I'm having more and more questions as pre-surg workup approaches...

>

> Original curve correction-

> I'm wondering if/how much scoliosis curve correction you got from

the

> revision surgery.

>

> Arms overhead (after recovery)-

> I'm wondering if/how farther you are able to raise your arms

straight

> overhead since revision. In the last few years I've noticed I can't

> reach " to the sky " , but more toward a nearby mountain top...

> My joints are looser than the average person, and I used to be able

> to stretch them just past vertical.

>

> I can definitely feel my " mountain top " reach affects the area

where

> my rod is broken, in the T4-T5 region. I'm pretty sure this will be

> corrected, but just wondering about your experiences.

>

> Neck/shoulders fatigue-

> I have constant neck/shoulder area fatigue and pain. Do you have

> experience with this... probably from trying to look forward when

my

> body wants me to look down?

>

> I'll be asking Dr. T all these questions on Jan 14, but just

> wondering if I'm odd or in the un-odd ball park!

> Thanks all. Jeri

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Jeri,

We are all and will all

be praying for you! I just wish I were closer to Madison so that I could go visit you. I

think I am a few years away from surgery still and do want to hold off as long

as I can, but when I am ready, will be looking to you and the others for your

pearls of wisdom.

As for the neck/shoulder

pain, for years I have had massage therapists tell me how tight I was, and how

much stress I must be under. But I have a pretty wonderful life with

little sustained stress. What made me stressed was the pain I felt as

they tried to knead away the knots and tight muscles in my neck and shoulders.

I finally told them to stay away from those areas. I found that if I sleep flat

on my back without a pillow (like I stayed for 3 months lying in a cast after

the Harrington Rod surgery), my neck and shoulders feel better in the morning. My

upper back is so flat it is almost concave so a pillow crooks me funny.

But I like the softness of the pillow and need it for lying on my side so I use

one until the pain wakes me up. Catch 22?

I can’t wait to

hear you tell us that your surgery took care of all that shoulder pain! J

Best of luck, dear! -

From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of bocce_fun

Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008

4:35 PM

Subject: [ ] Re:

Scoli original curve & Arms over head & Low neck Fatigue

,

A couple of hours ago, I had my husband position my head so that it

was inline with my upper back. He went by the position where there

was no crease in my skin. I was amazed at how far down I was looking

at that point. That told me that I've been trying to hold my head

way farther upright that my back would normally support for any

length of time.

A few minutes later I took enough ibuprofen to take away the

pain/fatigue, laid down w/ my neck as straight as I possibly could,

braced it that way with pillow support, and napped.

When I got up in the very first minute, I thought, gee, the advil

really worked! For the first few seconds standing,I made sure to

keep my head positioned as hubby indicated was straight. I felt

great! The minute I took off walking, the pain/fatigue kicked in.

I feel so stupid that I never realized the cause before. I've had

Harrington rods since 1980, hip pain for 10-15 yrs, but this

neck/shoulder pain/fatigue has only been a problem for about 5 yrs.

Definite deterioration. I'm ready to get this whole mess fixed.

January 29, here I come.

Jeri

[Guest guest]

Thanks, .

Yup, that's what thought.

>

> Jeri,

>

> My fusion starts at T4. I haven't had revision. I, also

have lots

> of shoulder/neck pain. Although Dr. Lenke said my fusion is fine

in that

> area, he agreed the pain could be because of the compensation we do

to

> counteract the degeneration of our lower spine. In other words, we

hold

> ourselves differently to try to compensate for our additional

curvature.

>

>

>

> _____

>

> From:

> [mailto: ] On Behalf Of bocce_fun

> Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 1:09 PM

>

> Subject: [ ] Scoli original curve & Arms over head &

Low neck

> Fatigue

>

>

>

> I'm having more and more questions as pre-surg workup approaches...

>

> Original curve correction-

> I'm wondering if/how much scoliosis curve correction you got from

the

> revision surgery.

>

> Arms overhead (after recovery)-

> I'm wondering if/how farther you are able to raise your arms

straight

> overhead since revision. In the last few years I've noticed I can't

> reach " to the sky " , but more toward a nearby mountain top...

> My joints are looser than the average person, and I used to be able

> to stretch them just past vertical.

>

> I can definitely feel my " mountain top " reach affects the area

where

> my rod is broken, in the T4-T5 region. I'm pretty sure this will be

> corrected, but just wondering about your experiences.

>

> Neck/shoulders fatigue-

> I have constant neck/shoulder area fatigue and pain. Do you have

> experience with this... probably from trying to look forward when

my

> body wants me to look down?

>

> I'll be asking Dr. T all these questions on Jan 14, but just

> wondering if I'm odd or in the un-odd ball park!

> Thanks all. Jeri

>

[Guest guest]

, Jeri and everyone,

I'm a little confused

[ ] Scoli original curve & Arms over head & Low neck> Fatigue> > > > I'm having more and more questions as pre-surg workup approaches...> > Original curve correction-> I'm wondering if/how much scoliosis curve correction you got from the > revision surgery.> > Arms overhead (after recovery)-> I'm wondering if/how farther you are able to raise your arms straight > overhead since revision. In the last few years I've noticed I can't > reach "to the sky", but more toward a nearby mountain top...> My joints are looser than the average person, and I used to be able > to stretch them just past vertical.> > I can definitely feel my "mountain top" reach affects the area where > my rod is broken, in the T4-T5 region. I'm pretty sure this will be > corrected, but just wondering about your experiences.> > Neck/shoulders fatigue-> I have constant neck/shoulder area fatigue and pain. Do you have > experience with this... probably from trying to look forward when my > body wants me to look down?> > I'll be asking Dr. T all these questions on Jan 14, but just > wondering if I'm odd or in the un-odd ball park!> Thanks all. Jeri>

[Guest guest]

Hi , Jeri and Everyone,

I'm a little confused. said " we hold ourselves differently to try to compensate for our additional curvature." I thought flatback was your spine being flat where there has been fusion surgery done. From what said, does this mean it's because we have more curvature than normal? I added two new photos showing how curved my spine is in the photo section. (Click on New Photos on the right). Would this be caused from FlatBack?

I'm totally confused now.

Pat E. from Texas

>> Jeri,> > My fusion starts at T4. I haven't had revision. I, also have lots> of shoulder/neck pain. Although Dr. Lenke said my fusion is fine in that> area, he agreed the pain could be because of the compensation we do to> counteract the degeneration of our lower spine. In other words, we hold> ourselves differently to try to compensate for our additional curvature.> > > > _____ > > From: > [mailto: ] On Behalf Of bocce_fun> Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 1:09 PM> > Subject: [ ] Scoli original curve & Arms over head & Low neck> Fatigue> > > > I'm having more and more questions as pre-surg workup approaches...> > Original curve correction-> I'm wondering if/how much scoliosis curve correction you got from the > revision surgery.> > Arms overhead (after recovery)-> I'm wondering if/how farther you are able to raise your arms straight > overhead since revision. In the last few years I've noticed I can't > reach "to the sky", but more toward a nearby mountain top...> My joints are looser than the average person, and I used to be able > to stretch them just past vertical.> > I can definitely feel my "mountain top" reach affects the area where > my rod is broken, in the T4-T5 region. I'm pretty sure this will be > corrected, but just wondering about your experiences.> > Neck/shoulders fatigue-> I have constant neck/shoulder area fatigue and pain. Do you have > experience with this... probably from trying to look forward when my > body wants me to look down?> > I'll be asking Dr. T all these questions on Jan 14, but just > wondering if I'm odd or in the un-odd ball park!> Thanks all. Jeri>

[Guest guest]

Pat, I'm assuming those MRI views are from the side, and as it is labelled, sitting. What I think I'm seeing there is one heck of a kyphosis, or forward bend of the spine. Everyone has some natural kyphosis in the thoracic (chest) spine, but the lumbar (lower) spine normally curves backward (lordosis) to compensate. When sitting it's hard to get an idea of how flat your lumbar is, but I bet you have lost lordosis, and the unfused part of your thoracic spine is getting more kyphotic because of the way gravity pulls on your upper body.

The following link shows a diagram of a normal spine from the side. The "C" vertebrae are cervical (neck), the "T"s are thoracic, and in real life have ribs attached, and the "L"s are lumbar. Picture how that balance would be messed up without the normal curve in the lumbar. A flattening of that normal curve is where the docs got the "dumbed down" name "flatback" for a condition they clinically refer to as a "fixed sagittal imbalance".

http://www.sorm.state.tx.us/training2/backsafety/backsafety.htm

My thoracic spine has never been as kyphotic as that, but I do know how the imbalance pulls on your neck muscles, and it does hurt!

None of this should be construed as a diagnosis, of course, as I'm just a spinal fusion patient like you. But I feel you have good reason to suspect flatback, and should pursue a diagnosis from a spine specialist.

I hope this helps, and good luck!

Sharon

PS: Have a look at my "before" and "after" x-rays if you like, for an idea of how the flattened lumbar affected my ability to stand upright. (I deliberately straightened my knees for the "before" -- I was able to look more upright by keeping knees and hips bent. I also straightened my knees for the "after"!) You will find similar pictures as you browse the albums of other members.

http://health.ph./group/ /photos/browse/10b7

[ ] Scoli original curve & Arms over head & Low neck> Fatigue> > > > I'm having more and more questions as pre-surg workup approaches...> > Original curve correction-> I'm wondering if/how much scoliosis curve correction you got from the > revision surgery.> > Arms overhead (after recovery)-> I'm wondering if/how farther you are able to raise your arms straight > overhead since revision. In the last few years I've noticed I can't > reach "to the sky", but more toward a nearby mountain top...> My joints are looser than the average person, and I used to be able > to stretch them just past vertical.> > I can definitely feel my "mountain top" reach affects the area where > my rod is broken, in the T4-T5 region. I'm pretty sure this will be > corrected, but just wondering about your experiences.> > Neck/shoulders fatigue-> I have constant neck/shoulder area fatigue and pain. Do you have > experience with this... probably from trying to look forward when my > body wants me to look down?> > I'll be asking Dr. T all these questions on Jan 14, but just > wondering if I'm odd or in the un-odd ball park!> Thanks all. Jeri>

[Guest guest]

Pat,

Didn’t

mean to confuse you. I only have a mild case of flatback. You might

look at some of the files on this site to get a better understanding of what classic

flatback entails. My lower spine has chosen to move sideways and rotate in its

degeneration instead. I wouldn’t presume to know anything about

your case and certainly don’t know how to read x-rays. However, if

your spine is at all curved (scoliosis, kyphosis, flatback, etc.), you expend

extra energy in your attempt to walk and maintain a plumb vertical position.

Other muscles must do extra work in order for you to try to stay straight/upright.

I hope this explains what I meant to originally say.

From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of PatEly@...

Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008

10:01 PM

Subject: [ ] Re:

Scoli original curve & Arms over head & Low neck Fatigue

Hi , Jeri and Everyone,

I'm a little confused. said "

we hold ourselves differently to try to compensate for our additional

curvature. " I

thought flatback was your spine being flat where there has been fusion surgery

done. From what said, does this mean it's because we have more

curvature than normal? I added two new photos showing how curved my spine

is in the photo section. (Click on New Photos on the right). Would

this be caused from FlatBack?

I'm totally confused now.

Pat E. from Texas

>

> Jeri,

>

> My fusion starts at T4. I haven't had revision. I, also

have lots

> of shoulder/neck pain. Although Dr. Lenke said my fusion is fine

in that

> area, he agreed the pain could be because of the compensation we do

to

> counteract the degeneration of our lower spine. In other words, we

hold

> ourselves differently to try to compensate for our additional

curvature.

>

>

>

> _____

>

> From:

> [mailto: ]

On Behalf Of bocce_fun

> Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 1:09 PM

>

> Subject: [ ] Scoli original curve & Arms over head

&

Low neck

> Fatigue

>

>

>

> I'm having more and more questions as pre-surg workup approaches...

>

> Original curve correction-

> I'm wondering if/how much scoliosis curve correction you got from

the

> revision surgery.

>

> Arms overhead (after recovery)-

> I'm wondering if/how farther you are able to raise your arms

straight

> overhead since revision. In the last few years I've noticed I can't

> reach " to the sky " , but more toward a nearby mountain top...

> My joints are looser than the average person, and I used to be able

> to stretch them just past vertical.

>

> I can definitely feel my " mountain top " reach affects the area

where

> my rod is broken, in the T4-T5 region. I'm pretty sure this will be

> corrected, but just wondering about your experiences.

>

> Neck/shoulders fatigue-

> I have constant neck/shoulder area fatigue and pain. Do you have

> experience with this... probably from trying to look forward when

my

> body wants me to look down?

>

> I'll be asking Dr. T all these questions on Jan 14, but just

> wondering if I'm odd or in the un-odd ball park!

> Thanks all. Jeri

>

[Guest guest]

Sharon – you are much more eloquent than I! Great explanation! J

From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Sharon Green

Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008

12:39 AM

Subject: Re: [ ]

Re: Scoli original curve & Arms over head & Low neck Fatigue

Pat, I'm assuming those MRI views are from the side, and as

it is labelled, sitting. What I think I'm seeing there is one heck of a

kyphosis, or forward bend of the spine. Everyone has some natural

kyphosis in the thoracic (chest) spine, but the lumbar (lower) spine normally

curves backward (lordosis) to compensate. When sitting it's hard to get

an idea of how flat your lumbar is, but I bet you have lost lordosis, and the

unfused part of your thoracic spine is getting more kyphotic because of the way

gravity pulls on your upper body.

The following link shows a diagram of a normal spine from

the side. The " C " vertebrae are cervical (neck), the

" T " s are thoracic, and in real life have ribs attached, and the

" L " s are lumbar. Picture how that balance would be messed up

without the normal curve in the lumbar. A flattening of that normal curve

is where the docs got the " dumbed down " name " flatback " for

a condition they clinically refer to as a " fixed sagittal imbalance " .

http://www.sorm.state.tx.us/training2/backsafety/backsafety.htm

My thoracic spine has never been as kyphotic as that, but I

do know how the imbalance pulls on your neck muscles, and it does hurt!

None of this should be construed as a diagnosis, of course,

as I'm just a spinal fusion patient like you. But I feel you have good

reason to suspect flatback, and should pursue a diagnosis from a spine

specialist.

I hope this helps, and good luck!

Sharon

PS: Have a look at my " before " and

" after " x-rays if you like, for an idea of how the flattened lumbar

affected my ability to stand upright. (I deliberately straightened my

knees for the " before " -- I was able to look more upright by keeping

knees and hips bent. I also straightened my knees for the

" after " !) You will find similar pictures as you browse the

albums of other members.

http://health.ph./group/ /photos/browse/10b7

[ ] Scoli original curve & Arms over head

&

Low neck

> Fatigue

>

>

>

> I'm having more and more questions as pre-surg workup approaches...

>

> Original curve correction-

> I'm wondering if/how much scoliosis curve correction you got from

the

> revision surgery.

>

> Arms overhead (after recovery)-

> I'm wondering if/how farther you are able to raise your arms

straight

> overhead since revision. In the last few years I've noticed I can't

> reach " to the sky " , but more toward a nearby mountain top...

> My joints are looser than the average person, and I used to be able

> to stretch them just past vertical.

>

> I can definitely feel my " mountain top " reach affects the area

where

> my rod is broken, in the T4-T5 region. I'm pretty sure this will be

> corrected, but just wondering about your experiences.

>

> Neck/shoulders fatigue-

> I have constant neck/shoulder area fatigue and pain. Do you have

> experience with this... probably from trying to look forward when

my

> body wants me to look down?

>

> I'll be asking Dr. T all these questions on Jan 14, but just

> wondering if I'm odd or in the un-odd ball park!

> Thanks all. Jeri

>

[Guest guest]

Pat,

With nothing other than a laypersons eyes, after looking at your MRI, I

do hope that you will consider sending/contacting the Bridwell or Lenke

group up in StLouis. If SB is correct that they will work on workmans

comp cases, they may well be the closest surgeons to you capable of

meeting your need for a very high quality second opinion.

Let us know how you make out.

Take Care, Cam

>

> Thanks to both of you for your explanation. I'm going to write a few

doctors and send my films for a second opinion.

> You are all great!

> Pat