Re: Moderation vs Censorship

[Guest guest]

The reason I never spoke against Francesca,

is because she actually got up and did something: she started this list, and

she “owns” it. This is much more than I ever did.

However, since you ask for support, I’m

afraid I can’t fully give it. While I strongly disagree with the way some

things where said on the CrSociety mailing list, I find many of them to be

true, and I find censorship to be especially very bad. Up until now I actually

did not know that there’s censorship; I thought there was only moderation

to avoid profanity. I was wrong. I think it’s important to know that not

all posts are “approved”, and that many people have left the list (or

just stopped reading/posting) because they felt uncomfortable with it (as they

told me that off list). I personally stopped posting because I felt strong opposition

whenever I post against the “party line” and did not want to

disrupt it anymore. So I lurk…

That said, I think that “Francesca’s

list” is an important list and it is a good source of CR support for many

people.

Micky.

-----Original Message-----

From: Suzanne Cart

[mailto:massuz@...]

Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2002

9:51 AM

CR Support Group

Subject: [ ]

Moderation vs Censorship

A PERSONAL NOTE TO THE

GROUP:

A few words about

" censoring " vs. " moderating " the CR Support List, since

I've become aware that this is an issue for some folks, who actually think that

freely belonging to a " moderated " list somehow imposes upon their

essential freedoms as American citizens. (Duh. Yes, I know this

sounds pretty bizarre, but some people are actually bitching along these lines,

instead of withdrawing their membership from the list, which they are also free

to do!)

Some lists are private

clubs--you can't post until/unless the moderator approves your

membership. This is often done with professional lists for instance,

where discussion is related to highly specialized topics. I've belonged

to some of these lists and have found them to be superior in quality to

unmoderated lists, even though the moderator usually rules with an iron

hand. If you don't like the moderator, you quit. No problem.

These are the rules. Follow them, or leave. Sounds harsh? Bye

bye!

Compared to such lists,

Francesca rarely RARELY refuses to approve a post. When she does, she

TRIES to politely explain why the post was refused. Of course some people

like to get their panties all in a wad over this (psychosis really rears it's

ugly head in these people), but really that's their choice and is no reflection

on Francesca. She works very hard to make this list valuable to those of

us who choose to be here. Recently she has been pretty beat-up by some

malcontents who don't like her. (To which I say, " SO

WHAT??? " ) Therefore, I would appreciate those of you who are in a

benevolent mood to kindly give Francesca a pat on the back this weekend for all

of her dedication and hard work. She needs it.

Hugs

Suz

To

unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

-unsubscribeegroups

Your use of

is subject to the

Terms of Service.

[Guest guest]

Micky: 99 9/10% of all posts are 'approved " . And we continue to grow so

you are incorrect about people leaving for that reason. In my " unsubscribers

query " I ask for feedback as to why a person is leaving. Not one has left

forthat reason. Many people come and go on all such lists. Just as many

people have left the CR Society List for their profanity, abuse and " let the

chips fall where they may " attitude because of no moderation at all. As a

newbie, I was told to go f____ myself for example. That's one of the

reasons for this list.

The list was entirely unmoderated til last June when the spammer infiltrated

and wreaked havoc. Now that it's moderated, the only posts that are denied

are those that 1) are insulting to someone or to the list 2) are meant for

another list and are somehow sent to ours or 3) spammers.

As to the " party " line, could you please explain what you mean? I remember

a couple of debates on this list where you posted your reasoning and

arguments. Nobody stopped you. Just because I, or someone else, doesn't

agree with you is not much of a reason to stop posting.

on 11/2/2002 2:30 PM, Micky Snir at mickys@... wrote:

> I think it¹s important to know that not all posts are ³approved², and that

> many people have left the list (or just stopped reading/posting) because they

> felt uncomfortable with it (as they told me that off list). I personally

> stopped posting because I felt strong opposition whenever I post against the

> ³party line² and did not want to disrupt it anymore.

[Guest guest]

From: Francesca Skelton <fskelton@e...>

Date: Sat Nov 2, 2002 4:15 pm

" Micky: 99 9/10% of all posts are 'approved " . ........

Now that it's moderated, the only posts that are denied are those that

......... 2) are meant for another list and are somehow sent to

ours......... "

There is where I took issue with your moderator, defined as:

" A person, or small group of people, who manages a moderated mailing list or

Usenet

newsgroup. Moderators are responsible for determining which email

submissions are

passed on to the list or newsgroup. "

This can be open to a wide interpretation, this category 2) posts. I feel

that if a post is submitted and not of general interest, the minority has

its rights. Replies to posts can guide the choices made on messages.

Almost all can " take a hint " when subjects are of no concern.

Cheers, Al.

[Guest guest]

And BTW, the name of this list is not " Francesca's List " . This is the CR

Support List. I do have a committee of other moderators and others who help

to run the list - I'm not alone. I did the start the list (again with help

from a committee) and willingly take the responsibility (and critiques). I

do find the term " Francesca's list " inappropriate and disturbing because it

dismisses the over 540 members who make up this group.

I also willingly listen to any complaints in the hopes of constantly trying

to make the list a better and better one and to accommodate members. But

you can't please everybody.

on 11/2/2002 2:30 PM, Micky Snir at mickys@... wrote:

> That said, I think that ³Francesca¹s list² is an important list and it is a

> good source of CR support for many people.

[Guest guest]

Answering specifically to some of your

remarks below:

- The fact that “we grow” does

not logically mean that “people are not leaving for that reason”. (Also

see next point)

- I did not write specifically “unsubscribe”

below. You can leave the list by choosing “no email” in your

preferences, or you can just stop reading and or posting the group’s

messages. You cannot know when people do that. They tell me they do. I do.

- Attitude to newbies and all has changed

in the CrSociety list (and you know that; you’re on that list). I credit

this change to you… indirectly, via starting this list.

- Moderating profanity or spamming is one

thing. I believe you did a bit more than that with Bob, though it may have been

a single incident, on a bad day…

- Party-line. That’s what I feel. You

can’t argue with that, and I don’t wish to.

I’d like to repeat that I think that

what you’re doing is basically good. You help people. I wish I would. I definitely

don’t think that you are a bad person.

I encourage you to keep “running”

this list, but I also encourage you to “moderate” a lot less. I do

acknowledge that it’s your prerogative to censor posts, but if you do then

I’m not sure I want to belong to this list. But then… how can I tell

if you do? Bob claims you did, but I never saw the email that was censored, so I

cannot truthfully judge. So I doubt. I think moderating less would server you

best. But you run the show.

Addendum: it is “Francesca’s

list”. The title stems from the act of creating, mothering, and especially

moderating the list, and now it seems… from creating a “committee”.

How does one get “chosen” for it and who sits in this committee?

Micky.

P.S. CR has many flavors. It’s just

a matter of time before the 2 list will split to yet more CR lists. The “Atkins

CR”, “Zone CR”, “Pritikin CR”, “Ornish CR”,

“Paleo CR”, “fruitarian CR”, “vegan CR”, “Vegetarian

CR”, “no cows but chicken are ok CR”, “Science CR”

and “Spiritual CR” come to mind J

-----Original Message-----

From: Francesca Skelton

[mailto:fskelton@...]

Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2002

11:46 AM

Subject: Re: [ ]

Moderation vs Censorship

Micky: 99 9/10% of all posts are

'approved " . And we continue to grow so

you are incorrect about people leaving for that

reason. In my " unsubscribers

query " I ask for feedback as to why a person

is leaving. Not one has left

forthat reason. Many people come and go on

all such lists. Just as many

people have left the CR Society List for their

profanity, abuse and " let the

chips fall where they may " attitude because

of no moderation at all. As a

newbie, I was told to go f____ myself for

example. That's one of the

reasons for this list.

The list was entirely unmoderated til last June

when the spammer infiltrated

and wreaked havoc. Now that it's moderated,

the only posts that are denied

are those that 1) are insulting to someone or to

the list 2) are meant for

another list and are somehow sent to ours or 3)

spammers.

As to the " party " line, could you please

explain what you mean? I remember

a couple of debates on this list where you posted

your reasoning and

arguments. Nobody stopped you. Just

because I, or someone else, doesn't

agree with you is not much of a reason to stop

posting.

on 11/2/2002 2:30 PM, Micky Snir at

mickys@... wrote:

> I think it¹s important to know that not all

posts are ³approved², and that

> many people have left the list (or just

stopped reading/posting) because they

> felt uncomfortable with it (as they told me

that off list). I personally

> stopped posting because I felt strong

opposition whenever I post against the

> ³party line² and did not want to disrupt it

anymore.

To

unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

-unsubscribeegroups

Your use of

is subject to the

Terms of Service.

[Guest guest]

Censorship of *ideas* (rather than mere insults and profanity) is bad

if it happens because it interferes with the free expression of ideas

and all that beneficial stuff etc. etc.. Whether it happens or not

on this CR support list I frankly have no clue. How would I know? I

once had a post of mine that did not appear on the list - but it was

not a serious post - it was just me joking around and being silly and

saying nothing of any real worth to anyone. Other than that all my

posts have gone through. Does a lot of censorship actually happen

behind the scenes? Beats me. All I have is someone's word against

someone elses and I can't even see you in person. I have enough

experience with online endeavors to know you simply can't judge

personality online - no one is that smart.

However here's something I do have an opinion on: I find there is a

slight party line pushed on this group by the types of statements

that are made implying there is only one right way to practice CR and

that it is that one true right way that all true CRONies practice.

For instance it was once stated that all CRONies eat canned salmon

several times a week - um ...

Now, my basic approach to life is to bristle at the idea of someone

having found the " one true right way " in anything. " Oh you have have

you? Yea right ... prove it " There are certainly many *wrong*

ways to do CR that are not apt to minimize your chances of dying a

early death (ie hamburger and candy bar CR) but we simply don't know

enough to know the one right optimal way. Many things in life are

trade offs as well - severity of CR versus basic quaility of life.

Life is one big trade off!!

There is certainly no perfect CR group either. And actually I got

more tired of the main CR list. I'm pretty sure they don't censor

but they certainly do intimidate. I had about as much as I could

take of that and haven't read it recently which is not to say I

didn't learn a lot from it as well. I just felt the whole obession

was impacting my sanity and so I took leave . I still read this

group and learn from it and am often thankful for a haven that deals

more with the social aspects of CR rather than um ... analyzing

berries for the 10th million time.

[Guest guest]

on 11/2/2002 3:26 PM, Micky Snir at mickys@... wrote:

> Answering specifically to some of your remarks below:

>

> - The fact that " we grow " does not logically mean that " people are not leaving

> for that reason " . (Also see next point)

>

> - I did not write specifically " unsubscribe " below. You can leave the list by

> choosing " no email " in your preferences, or you can just stop reading and or

> posting the group's messages. You cannot know when people do that. They tell

> me they do. I do.

Micky: people choose no e-mail for many reasons. Neverthless I appreciate

your telling me that people take this passive approach. I can't change the

groups policies for the better however, if they don't tell me what their

problems are. I don't see how telling you or even why they would tell you

(someone who is not that active on either list) makes sense.

>> - Attitude to newbies and all has changed in the CrSociety list (and you know

> that; you're on that list). I credit this change to you... indirectly, via

> starting this list.

Yes. although you wouldn't know much has changed from the recent treatment

I received there, being compared to Hitler, and other personal attacks by a

couple of hotheads. Although they go along for a while hoping to " keep "

people, they somehow fall back into their old ways.....

> - Moderating profanity or spamming is one thing. I believe you did a bit more

> than that with Bob, though it may have been a single incident, on a bad day...

and how would you know that?

>

> I'd like to repeat that I think that what you're doing is basically good. You

> help people. I wish I would. I definitely don't think that you are a bad

> person.

>

> I encourage you to keep " running " this list, but I also encourage you to

> " moderate " a lot less. I do acknowledge that it's your prerogative to censor

> posts, but if you do then I'm not sure I want to belong to this list. But

> then... how can I tell if you do? Bob claims you did, but I never saw the

> email that was censored, so I cannot truthfully judge. So I doubt. I think

> moderating less would server you best. But you run the show.

If I " moderated " any less, the list would be entirely unmoderated. As I

said 99 9/10% of all posts go through.

>

>

>

> Addendum: it is " Francesca's list " . The title stems from the act of creating,

> mothering, and especially moderating the list, and now it seems... from

> creating a " committee " . How does one get " chosen " for it and who sits in this

> committee?

In that case, why are you calling the other list by its name and not

" 's List " ?

If you want to help run the list by all means, let me know off list.

>

[Guest guest]

- calling you Hitler was bad. Really bad. No

good excuses for that. You know that I know that. However I must tell our

readers the context: you were called that name by the guy that supposedly got

censored by you because you supposedly censored him, and not as a reply to a CR

related email.

- “bad day”. I meant any of

you. Could have been Bob’s bad day, so he blew things out of proportions.

Dunno.

- It’s not ’s list

because he merely created it. He does not mother (do I mean nurse?) the list,

nor moderate it. I bet most CrSociety list members don’t even know he

created it. I bet most members here know you did create this list. And I did

not mean “Francesca’s list” in any demeaning way. It *IS* your list, and not only because you

created it.

- I don’t want to run the list,

mostly because I believe that lists don’t need “running”. If someone

“runs” them, then they become… Someone’s list (capital

S).

Micky.

-----Original Message-----

From: Francesca Skelton

[mailto:fskelton@...]

Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2002

12:43 PM

Subject: Re: [ ]

Moderation vs Censorship

on 11/2/2002 3:26 PM, Micky Snir at

mickys@... wrote:

> Answering specifically to some of your

remarks below:

>

> - The fact that " we grow " does not

logically mean that " people are not leaving

> for that reason " . (Also see next point)

>

> - I did not write specifically

" unsubscribe " below. You can leave the list by

> choosing " no email " in your

preferences, or you can just stop reading and or

> posting the group's messages. You cannot know

when people do that. They tell

> me they do. I do.

Micky: people choose no e-mail for many

reasons. Neverthless I appreciate

your telling me that people take this passive

approach. I can't change the

groups policies for the better however, if they

don't tell me what their

problems are. I don't see how telling you or

even why they would tell you

(someone who is not that active on either list)

makes sense.

>> - Attitude to newbies and all has changed

in the CrSociety list (and you know

> that; you're on that list). I credit this

change to you... indirectly, via

> starting this list.

Yes. although you wouldn't know much has

changed from the recent treatment

I received there, being compared to Hitler, and

other personal attacks by a

couple of hotheads. Although they go along

for a while hoping to " keep "

people, they somehow fall back into their old

ways.....

> - Moderating profanity or spamming is one

thing. I believe you did a bit more

> than that with Bob, though it may have been a

single incident, on a bad day...

and how would you know that?

>

> I'd like to repeat that I think that what

you're doing is basically good. You

> help people. I wish I would. I definitely

don't think that you are a bad

> person.

>

> I encourage you to keep " running "

this list, but I also encourage you to

> " moderate " a lot less. I do

acknowledge that it's your prerogative to censor

> posts, but if you do then I'm not sure I want

to belong to this list. But

> then... how can I tell if you do? Bob claims

you did, but I never saw the

> email that was censored, so I cannot

truthfully judge. So I doubt. I think

> moderating less would server you best. But

you run the show.

If I " moderated " any less, the list

would be entirely unmoderated. As I

said 99 9/10% of all posts go through.

>

>

>

> Addendum: it is " Francesca's list " .

The title stems from the act of creating,

> mothering, and especially moderating the

list, and now it seems... from

> creating a " committee " . How does

one get " chosen " for it and who sits in this

> committee?

In that case, why are you calling the other list

by its name and not

" 's List " ?

If you want to help run the list by all means, let

me know off list.

>

[Guest guest]

Of course Francesca deserves credit for the effort she puts in here on the "kinder gentler list". However she can be a little grating with her near constant criticism of the other. I am a fan of moderation as in avoiding extremes, not extremists. I guess one of the theories that CR makes folks CRanky may be true.

I have pretty much tried to ignore this but feel I must post support for Francesca, and Micky, and , and , etc. Perhaps we can focus on the real work (more nutrition/less calories)...

JR

[john roberts] -----Original Message-----From: Suzanne Cart [mailto:massuz@...]Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2002 11:51 AMCR Support GroupSubject: [ ] Moderation vs Censorship

A PERSONAL NOTE TO THE GROUP:

A few words about "censoring" vs. "moderating" the CR Support List, since I've become aware that this is an issue for some folks, who actually think that freely belonging to a "moderated" list somehow imposes upon their essential freedoms as American citizens. (Duh. Yes, I know this sounds pretty bizarre, but some people are actually bitching along these lines, instead of withdrawing their membership from the list, which they are also free to do!)

Some lists are private clubs--you can't post until/unless the moderator approves your membership. This is often done with professional lists for instance, where discussion is related to highly specialized topics. I've belonged to some of these lists and have found them to be superior in quality to unmoderated lists, even though the moderator usually rules with an iron hand. If you don't like the moderator, you quit. No problem. These are the rules. Follow them, or leave. Sounds harsh? Bye bye!

Compared to such lists, Francesca rarely RARELY refuses to approve a post. When she does, she TRIES to politely explain why the post was refused. Of course some people like to get their panties all in a wad over this (psychosis really rears it's ugly head in these people), but really that's their choice and is no reflection on Francesca. She works very hard to make this list valuable to those of us who choose to be here. Recently she has been pretty beat-up by some malcontents who don't like her. (To which I say, "SO WHAT???") Therefore, I would appreciate those of you who are in a benevolent mood to kindly give Francesca a pat on the back this weekend for all of her dedication and hard work. She needs it.

Hugs

Suz

[Guest guest]

: I value your opinion. And maybe it's just how I (or you) see it.

But I rarely mention the other list here. It's just not relevant to this

list. Today of course is an exception and it has come up and today I'm

guilty (as is everyone else taking part in this discussion). If you have

specific examples, I certainly would like to change my behavior in this

regard. Since this is personal, please send any specific examples to me off

list. I would truly appreciate it.

on 11/2/2002 4:06 PM, john roberts at johnhrob@... wrote:

> Of course Francesca deserves credit for the effort she puts in here on the

> " kinder gentler list " . However she can be a little grating with her near

> constant criticism of the other.

[Guest guest]

> - calling you Hitler was bad. Really bad. No good excuses for that.

for your ammusement Godwin's " law " :

http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/jargon/html/entry/Godwin's-Law.html

ok time to get back on topic

[Guest guest]

actually I responded to that with something like Godwin's " law " .

To clear up a misconception that has been mentioned during this discussion:

I have left that group .

on 11/2/2002 7:51 PM, somejoanne2002 at bhsnz@... wrote:

>> - calling you Hitler was bad. Really bad. No good excuses for that.

>

> for your ammusement Godwin's " law " :

>

> http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/jargon/html/entry/Godwin's-Law.html

>

> ok time to get back on topic

[Guest guest]

--- " Suzanne Cart " <massuz@c...> wrote:

``A few words about " censoring " vs. " moderating " the CR Support

List, since I've become aware that this is an issue for some folks,

who actually think that freely belonging to a " moderated " list

somehow imposes upon their essential freedoms as American citizens.

(Duh. Yes, I know this sounds pretty bizarre, but some people are

actually bitching along these lines, instead of withdrawing their

membership from the list, which they are also free to do!)''

I believe the issue mainly revolves around one rejected post -

by Cavanaugh.

He wrote:

This morning I posted a message to her

list to encourage people there to look at our recipe

site and possibly contribute to our effort here and

gave a link to Lynn /Joe C's message. I also

provided a link to our recipe site so members there

could look at what we have there, meager as it may be

for now. Francesca Skelton makes no effort to inform

CRONies of the many wonderful things we have to offer

them.

In return, Francesca sent me a very nasty e-mail

saying that my message was insulting to her group and

their efforts to amass a cookbook of their own. I

checked her group site to see if there was any

response to my message only to find that it had not

been posted to her list. I personally find that very

offensive and want the CR community to know that

Francesca Skelton apparently runs a censored e-mail

list where CRON information is not freely exchanged.

She apparently wants a captive audience where she can

espouse her own version of CR and I think it important

that members of her group are made aware that CRON

information to them is being filtered and/or outright

denied. Since CRON is an experiment in humans at this

point, she has absolutely no right to experiment (as I

see it) with the lives and health of members in her

group. I encourage other members of CR Society to

post information to her group to make them aware of

the assets that are available to them here.

[Guest guest]

How do I subscribed to this other CR group? I didn't know it existed and would like to take a look at it, and their recipe file. Thanks. ----- Original Message ----- From: Tim Tyler Sent: Sunday, November 03, 2002 5:23 AM Subject: [ ] Re: Moderation vs Censorship --- "Suzanne Cart" <massuz@c...> wrote:``A few words about "censoring" vs. "moderating" the CR Support List, since I've become aware that this is an issue for some folks, who actually think that freely belonging to a "moderated" list somehow imposes upon their essential freedoms as American citizens. (Duh. Yes, I know this sounds pretty bizarre, but some people are actually bitching along these lines, instead of withdrawing their membership from the list, which they are also free to do!)''I believe the issue mainly revolves around one rejected post -by Cavanaugh.He wrote:This morning I posted a message to herlist to encourage people there to look at our recipesite and possibly contribute to our effort here andgave a link to Lynn /Joe C's message. I alsoprovided a link to our recipe site so members therecould look at what we have there, meager as it may befor now. Francesca Skelton makes no effort to informCRONies of the many wonderful things we have to offerthem.In return, Francesca sent me a very nasty e-mailsaying that my message was insulting to her group andtheir efforts to amass a cookbook of their own. Ichecked her group site to see if there was anyresponse to my message only to find that it had notbeen posted to her list. I personally find that veryoffensive and want the CR community to know thatFrancesca Skelton apparently runs a censored e-maillist where CRON information is not freely exchanged.She apparently wants a captive audience where she canespouse her own version of CR and I think it importantthat members of her group are made aware that CRONinformation to them is being filtered and/or outrightdenied. Since CRON is an experiment in humans at thispoint, she has absolutely no right to experiment (as Isee it) with the lives and health of members in hergroup. I encourage other members of CR Society topost information to her group to make them aware ofthe assets that are available to them here.

[Guest guest]

> However, the leadership of the other group has

> decided they don't want to mutually cooperate with

> us. This was not my idea, but now I

> think it's all for the best. Let's keep them there

> and us here.

Francesca,

What you say here is incorrect. The leadership of the CR Society never

made a decision not to cooperate with this group.

Hope everyone is well!

.

President, CR Society

[Guest guest]

Well then I'm sorry we have misunderstood each other.

on 11/4/2002 12:02 PM, bd9992 at bd9992@... wrote:

> Francesca,

>

> What you say here is incorrect. The leadership of the CR Society never

> made a decision not to cooperate with this group.

>

> Hope everyone is well!

> .

> President, CR Society