Re: Re: obsessive/extreme CRON: another issue

[Guest guest]

Tim: who is Steve ?

on 11/16/2002 5:43 AM, Tim Tyler at tt2333@... wrote:

> That issue was one of Steve 's reasons for being non-CRON:

>

> ``Caloric restriction (CR) may be great if you want to sit in

> a nice climate-controlled lab basement or a sealed controlled

> experiment in some warm place like Biosphere II. However, In

> other places--on top of a mountain in the snow, under a lot

> of cold water in the Pacific, or with a nasty infection- you

> may well pay a price for CR that you hadn't counted on.

> That is why I'm particularly watching you restricted Canucks-

> the first one of you that crumps from infection is going to be

> editorialized by moi.'' - S.H.

[Guest guest]

Did you see Steve ’s photo in

the LEF magazine?

He is fat.

I don’t put much trust in overweight

people (if not obese) criticizing CR. He surely knows that being overweight is

bad, yet it does not seem to affect him. Yes, he has a great mind for life-extension

science, but it bugs me much that he is fat. Any serious life-extensionist

should at least keep a normal weight. Yet he defaults to take statin drugs for

their life extension properties… and be fat. Yuck.

Micky.

-----Original Message-----

From: Tim Tyler

[mailto:tt2333@...]

Sent: Saturday,

November 16, 2002 2:43 AM

Subject: [ ] Re:

obsessive/extreme CRON: another issue

> There's another issue that I don't recall

being brought up.

> And that is if one is close to the

" edge " with no fat reserves

> at all, what happens if you get sick?

That issue was one of Steve 's reasons for

being non-CRON:

``Caloric restriction (CR) may be great if you

want to sit in

a nice climate-controlled lab basement or a

sealed controlled

experiment in some warm place like

Biosphere II. However, In

other places--on top of a mountain in the

snow, under a lot

of cold water in the Pacific, or with a

nasty infection- you

may well pay a price for CR that you hadn't

counted on.

That is why I'm particularly watching you

restricted Canucks-

the first one of you that crumps from

infection is going to be

editorialized by moi.'' - S.H.

[Guest guest]

Apart from hypothermia (and if you're dropped in the North Atlantic, good

luck no matter what your size), I'm not convinced CR or even 'slimness' is

such a bad thing. CR, of course, has been shown to have a protective effect

in terms of strengthening the immune system and resistance to shock.

On a purely practical level, how many of us here have a friend or colleague

who has died or fallen ill of heart disease, stroke, or cancer? Ok, now how

many known someone who dropped into the North Atlantic and survived because

of their extensive body fat or someone who survived a long, wasting fever

without going to the hospital?

I am, however, curious about the " Canuck " comment. I wonder if he's aware

that the West Coast up into the Queen Charlottes is generally warmer than

most the US East Coast and prairies? Besides, most of us in Northern areas

(where I live now) have invented nifty items such as " heaters, " " coats, " and

" gloves " ...

Cheers,

> -----Original Message-----

> From: Tim Tyler [mailto:tt2333@...]

> Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 3:59 AM

>

> Subject: [ ] Re: obsessive/extreme CRON: another issue

>

>

> --- " Micky Snir " wrote:

>

> > Did you see Steve 's photo in the LEF magazine?

> >

> > He is fat.

> >

> > I don't put much trust in overweight people

> > (if not obese) criticizing CR. [...]

>

> Whetever Steve's girth, the point that CR may reduce

> resistance to diseases such as hypothermia - and

> possibly some infectious - agents seems reasonable to me.

>

> Whatever CR's effect on the immune system, it

> seems unlikely that it will prevent all

> infections - and some infectious agents may extract

> a toll from bodily resources - that very slender

> individuals may have difficulty in paying.

>

> I'm thinking mainly of fevers - where the body's natural

> reaction is to divert resources from other systems,

> increase the metabolic rate, raise the core

> temperature, and sweat profusely for an extended period.

>

> It does not seem unreasonable to me that we have not

> seen many such effects in lab CR studies - because the

> subjects are isolated from carriers in their natural

> environment, and sometimes isolated from other animals

> in order to better control their caloric intake.

>

> Such isolation may be neither desirable nor practical for humans.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

You are correct indeed. However, fat

people tend to focus on things that make them psychologically comfortable (been

there). “on top of a mountain in the snow” ??? “under a lot

of cold water in the Pacific” ??? So yes, CRONies should beware of

infections, and take less chances in doing extreme sports.

I bet Steve knows the damage of being fat,

and I bet he’s right about the danger of being “on the edge”,

which is not where most CRONies are.

Micky.

-----Original Message-----

From: Tim Tyler

[mailto:tt2333@...]

Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002

2:59 AM

Subject: [ ] Re:

obsessive/extreme CRON: another issue

--- " Micky Snir " wrote:

> Did you see Steve 's photo in the LEF

magazine?

>

> He is fat.

>

> I don't put much trust in overweight people

> (if not obese) criticizing CR. [...]

Whetever Steve's girth, the point that CR may

reduce

resistance to diseases such as hypothermia - and

possibly some infectious - agents seems reasonable

to me.

Whatever CR's effect on the immune system, it

seems unlikely that it will prevent all

infections - and some infectious agents may

extract

a toll from bodily resources - that very slender

individuals may have difficulty in paying.

I'm thinking mainly of fevers - where the body's

natural

reaction is to divert resources from other

systems,

increase the metabolic rate, raise the core

temperature, and sweat profusely for an extended

period.

It does not seem unreasonable to me that we have

not

seen many such effects in lab CR studies - because

the

subjects are isolated from carriers in their

natural

environment, and sometimes isolated from other

animals

in order to better control their caloric intake.

Such isolation may be neither desirable nor

practical for humans.

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[Guest guest]

All,

there is no evidence of any consequence that will extend his life at all, beyond the possibility of delaying the onset of cardiovascular diseases and some cancers. This is not life extension. There is a small possibility that his life will be curtailed by liver malfunction resulting from the statin drugs. I was registering excellent blood fat data with 40 mg of lipitor every other day. But then my stomach began to hurt. The muscles rather than gut itself. Then this muscle pain spread to much of my body. Not to the point of being debilitating, but very uncomfortable. Meanwhile, I was being less than clearly focussed on cron ... because I had the reassurance of the blood data. My bp was also down. Still is. Doctor looked at my liver enzymes and yanked me off the lipitor. Gradually, the pain diminshed. Now, it turns out that this pain is not just an insignificant side effect. The muscle tissue was actually deteriorating. (Although I was doing resistance exercises, I was growing weaker. My lean body mass dropped a couple of points, from 151 pounds to about 148). This liver malfunction, if continued long enough, can be non-reversible. I guess that finally, I could have just .. poof!.. disappeared one day. Not really funny. I am now more meticulous with cron. My body fat is diminishing, very very slowly, and the muscle pain is gone. I can build strength if I want to, but I'm not sure that in the long run that extra muscle mass (burns calories) is an advantage for life extension.

Anyhow, your anti-hero from LEF is taking some serious risks. If the statins go out from under him, he has no place to go. And all the statins do is suggest that he may not have a heart attack or stroke. Hell, a good mediterranean diet without cr will do that pretty well. Lots of olive oil dripping from the pasta. Canola soaked sauteed fish. Avacados. Walnuts. Mmmmmmmm. But the same pattern with cr and lots of veggies promises the possibility of a greatly extended lifespan as well as short range cv disease protection. In any case, you"re playing the odds, like it or not. Yes, extreme cr might shorten your life by some mechanism no one has noticed yet. Well, if you're concerned about it, don't be so exteme! You determine the degree of risk. After all, you decide what risks you want to take every time you cross the street. Cron, at a Walford suggested appropriate level for my age, 70, is my choice. I guess you've made the choice for cron, or you wouldn't be reading this.

There is no evidence that cr weakens the immune system unless it's too extreme or initiated too abruptly. There is good evidence that one of the mechanisms for extending life span is through immune enhancement. Wear gloves. If that doesn't work and you can't stand it, eat more. What more do you want?

Micky, this post is not really aimed at you. You seem to be performing in an exemplary fashion. Your post just happened to be handy for a reply post. I've been thinking about this and wondering why you all are paying so much attention to it.

I wouldn't worry about what thinks until he's 120. Then I might think he knows something of value.

Ed S.

----- Original Message -----

From: Micky Snir

Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 10:21 AM

Subject: RE: [ ] Re: obsessive/extreme CRON: another issue

You are correct indeed. However, fat people tend to focus on things that make them psychologically comfortable (been there). “on top of a mountain in the snow” ??? “under a lot of cold water in the Pacific” ??? So yes, CRONies should beware of infections, and take less chances in doing extreme sports.

I bet Steve knows the damage of being fat, and I bet he’s right about the danger of being “on the edge”, which is not where most CRONies are.

Micky.

-----Original Message-----From: Tim Tyler [mailto:tt2333@...] Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2002 2:59 AM Subject: [ ] Re: obsessive/extreme CRON: another issue

--- "Micky Snir" wrote:> Did you see Steve 's photo in the LEF magazine? > > He is fat.> > I don't put much trust in overweight people> (if not obese) criticizing CR. [...]Whetever Steve's girth, the point that CR may reduceresistance to diseases such as hypothermia - andpossibly some infectious - agents seems reasonable to me.