Re: obsessive/extreme CRON: another issue

[Guest guest]

Indeed. As much criticism I might have

against Dr. W, he does get most things right, and I tend to agree with him

regarding having 5% bodyfat for males as lower limit. I think females was 8%

but I forget.

-----Original Message-----

From: Francesca Skelton

[mailto:fskelton@...]

Sent: Friday,

November 15, 2002 11:41 AM

support group

Subject: [ ]

obsessive/extreme CRON: another issue

There's another issue that I don't recall being

brought up. And that is if

one is close

to the " edge " with no fat reserves at all, what happens if you

get

sick? Say a bout of diahrrea or an illness where you could lose

more

significant

weight, and get very weak and/or malnourished if you're skirting

close to the

edge as it is. Thinking about it, it sounds pretty dangerous.

We're not

lab rats in a cage. We take risks all the time; one could wind up

in a car

accident for example, or catching a bug from someone we come into

contact

with. In that case, anemia or extreme low weight may cause more

harm than good

..

[Guest guest]

Hi Thin_Man.

I would send the more scientific questions

to the CrSociety list. They have some serious human search engines (one of

them, Al, is on this list as well), and they may discuss such things to death.

IMO, if you’re a more than a light

to moderate CRONie, you should get yourself tested on a regular basis, because

the variability among us is too big for personal conclusions and the stakes are

high. The CrSociety had some folks with very bad lab results that had to take

strong measures to get back into “track”. I even remember Mambo Mambo

on this list with surprising bone density results.

I can stress it enough: get yourself

tested.

Now… I have to get tested myself…

Micky.

-----Original Message-----

From: thin_man02

[mailto:thin_man02@...]

Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002

2:52 PM

Subject: [ ]

obsessive/extreme CRON: another issue

This is my first post (though I am guilty of lurking

here for a

while). I have had a strong interest in CRON

since reading

Walford's first book and have practiced moderate

CR

intermittently over the years. Although I've

never been

overweight, I prefer to be like I have been during

my CRON

periods, and hope to become more faithful to the

process. I find

CRON difficult within a family that includes my

sons, two young

men (13 and 20 yrs old) with voracious

appetites. I also find that

travel (particularly international travel) too

easily upsets the

greatest of CRON intentions. A recent week

in Italy easily

derailed my latest CRON effort, and it's taken

another week to

get back on the program.

I am interested in the issue of a minimum body fat

percentage

threshold below which the health benefits of CRON

in the face of

infection are compromised. I searched

Medline on the PubMed

website and it appears that there are only a few

studies relating

CR and infection outcome, but none seem to address

body fat

percentage as a variable within the CR

context. Perhaps my

search was too limited. Does anyone know of

anything

published on this issue? I did come up with

the following

abstract, which is interesting but doesn't answer

the question.

Search term: " Calorie restriction "

AND infection

JPEN J Parenter Enteral Nutr 1992

Nov-Dec;16(6):561-5

The role of protein and calorie restriction in

outcome from

Salmonella infection in mice.

Peck MD, Babcock GF, JW.

Department of Surgery, University of Miami School

of Medicine,

Florida 33101-6310.

We studied the separate effects of protein and

calorie restriction

in mice challenged with Salmonella typhimurium, an

intracellular pathogen eliminated by cell-mediated

immunity.

Female A/J mice (n = 73) were placed on one of

eight solid diets

for 3 weeks. Animals were weighed at the beginning

and the

end of the feeding period. Diets were adjusted by

two factors.

The total amount of protein in the diet was 1%,

5%, 20%, or 40%

by weight. The diets were fed to half the mice in

quantities of 3 g

and to the other half at 1.5 g per mouse per day.

At the end of 3

weeks, mice were injected intraperitoneally with

bacteria and

mortality was observed for 2 weeks. Mortality was

related to

protein intake and was significantly higher in the

1% and 5%

groups (chi 2: p = .0021). However, mortality was

lower in the

calorie-restricted groups (chi 2: p = .0242).

Although caloric

intake did not affect cell-mediated immunity, the

response to 2,4-

dinitrofluorobenzene was greater in the low

protein groups.

Lymphoproliferative responses in the mixed

lymphocyte

response were not affected by either caloric or

protein intake.

Lymphoproliferative responses to both

lipopolysaccharide and

phytohemagglutinin were affected by dietary

protein but not by

caloric intake; proliferative responses were

higher in the low-

protein groups. We conclude that protein

restriction can increase

mortality in this model. On the other hand,

short-term calorie

restriction can improve survival.

PMID: 1494214 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

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[Guest guest]

> There's another issue that I don't recall being brought up.

> And that is if one is close to the " edge " with no fat reserves

> at all, what happens if you get sick?

That issue was one of Steve 's reasons for being non-CRON:

``Caloric restriction (CR) may be great if you want to sit in

a nice climate-controlled lab basement or a sealed controlled

experiment in some warm place like Biosphere II. However, In

other places--on top of a mountain in the snow, under a lot

of cold water in the Pacific, or with a nasty infection- you

may well pay a price for CR that you hadn't counted on.

That is why I'm particularly watching you restricted Canucks-

the first one of you that crumps from infection is going to be

editorialized by moi.'' - S.H.

[Guest guest]

>

> > There's another issue that I don't recall being brought up.

> > And that is if one is close to the " edge " with no fat reserves

> > at all, what happens if you get sick?

>

> That issue was one of Steve 's reasons for being non-CRON:

>

> ``Caloric restriction (CR) may be great if you want to sit in

> a nice climate-controlled lab basement or a sealed controlled

> experiment in some warm place like Biosphere II. However, In

> other places--on top of a mountain in the snow, under a lot

> of cold water in the Pacific, or with a nasty infection- you

> may well pay a price for CR that you hadn't counted on.

> That is why I'm particularly watching you restricted Canucks-

> the first one of you that crumps from infection is going to be

> editorialized by moi.'' - S.H.

I've got a BMI of 20 (pre-CRON, 28). When I give blood, I worry

about infection for the next couple of days. I wash my hands more

and do less socializing. Simple things can meet a vast majority of

chance of infection. Giving blood is something that makes me feel a

lot less vulnerable when my blood supply has been replenished a

couple days later.

I run the day after giving blood. Now I've heard that every time a

person runs, the muscles get a thousand microscopic tears. Normally,

these are fixed within 48 hours. It would seem that since the body

is always in a state of replenishment and restoration, one doesn't

have to sweat the details. The body is like a gyroscope that's used

to keep boats or planes on course, no matter the currents or jet

stream.

Bill

[Guest guest]

--- Francesca Skelton wrote:

> Tim: who is Steve ?

An MD with an interest in aging-related subjects.

Here are some of his writings: http://yarchive.net/med/

[Guest guest]

Hi All, I was particularly put off by his: " I'm particularly watching

you restricted Canucks-the first one of you that crumps from infection

is going to be editorialized by moi.'' - S.H. " And what are crumps?

He sounds to me like a bigoted incompetent. He listed Ben Best's

site, though. Cheers, Al.

>

> > There's another issue that I don't recall being brought up.

> > And that is if one is close to the " edge " with no fat reserves

> > at all, what happens if you get sick?

>

> That issue was one of Steve 's reasons for being non-CRON:

>

> ``Caloric restriction (CR) may be great if you want to sit in

> a nice climate-controlled lab basement or a sealed controlled

> experiment in some warm place like Biosphere II. However, In

> other places--on top of a mountain in the snow, under a lot

> of cold water in the Pacific, or with a nasty infection- you

> may well pay a price for CR that you hadn't counted on.

> That is why I'm particularly watching you restricted Canucks-

> the first one of you that crumps from infection is going to be

> editorialized by moi.'' - S.H.

[Guest guest]

--- Leisa Hiatt wrote:

> I believe " crump(s) " is medical slang for " going down the drain "

> that is to say getting real sick and sometimes eventually dying.

Seems about right:

``CRUMP: Go downhill, die. (Example: " The patient with the

MI crumped last night. " )

- http://www2.warnerbros.com/ertv/medical_gloss.html

[Guest guest]

--- " Micky Snir " wrote:

> Did you see Steve 's photo in the LEF magazine?

>

> He is fat.

>

> I don't put much trust in overweight people

> (if not obese) criticizing CR. [...]

Whetever Steve's girth, the point that CR may reduce

resistance to diseases such as hypothermia - and

possibly some infectious - agents seems reasonable to me.

Whatever CR's effect on the immune system, it

seems unlikely that it will prevent all

infections - and some infectious agents may extract

a toll from bodily resources - that very slender

individuals may have difficulty in paying.

I'm thinking mainly of fevers - where the body's natural

reaction is to divert resources from other systems,

increase the metabolic rate, raise the core

temperature, and sweat profusely for an extended period.

It does not seem unreasonable to me that we have not

seen many such effects in lab CR studies - because the

subjects are isolated from carriers in their natural

environment, and sometimes isolated from other animals

in order to better control their caloric intake.

Such isolation may be neither desirable nor practical for humans.