Re: Re: 's letter and 's answer

[Guest guest]

> Mike, thank you for the web site on raw milk. I will be contacting the Nuns

> on Shaw Is. in Washington to see what it would take to get raw milk from

> their cows. They are close, but since it is over water access is limited.

>

> I have given up drinking the non-fat milk simply because I prefer the one or

> two percent much more. Does the amount of fat in the product have anything

> to do with the absorption of calcium from milk? I'm thinking for healthy

> bones; convince me I need whole milk.

>

> I used to get whole raw milk from Guernsey cows in California. It was a

> small herd taken care of by a gentle, loving couple so I never had questions

> about the milk. Their whole procedure was open to for you to watch.

>

> As I always have had and continue to have a variety of fruits and vegetables

> in my diet I hope that will help with the calcium, too. The more colorful

> the veggie the better, I feel.

>

> Ta-ta. - Ruth

Hi Ruth,

Always keep in mind that raw milk is a sensitive legal issue, and

unfortunately many people have a very hard time finding it, but finding

some WAPF people in your area through that website, or knocking on some

doors of local farms, could do the trick. You could also email the

" " email group on -groups and ask if anyone lives

near you. In fact, that's probably your best bet. It's best to know the

source well like in your wonderful example. I usually get my milk during

milking time fresh and warm right out of the cow. It goes right from the

cow to a stainless steel bucket to my amber glass jug. I mainly make

kefir with it, but I can't help drinking some while it's warm sometimes.

I don't know much about the relationship between fat and calcium

absorption, but here is a quote from Sally Fallon's book and the reference

she gives:

" For calcium to be effectively incorporated into the skeletal structure,

at least 50 percent of the dietary fats should be saturated [38]. "

Watkins, B A, et al, " Importance of Vitamin E in Bone Formation and in

Chrondrocyte Function " Purdue University, Lafayette, IN, American Oil

Chemists Society Proceedings, 1996; Watkins, B A, and M F Seifert, " Food

Lipids and Bone Health, " Food Lipids and Health, R E Mc and D B Min,

eds, p101, Marcel Dekker, Inc, New York, NY, 1996.

I haven't checked into this interesting issue myself, mainly because it's

only common sense to have at least 50 percent of fats be saturated, since

that's a basic feature of the animal foods our species evolved on, so it's

not like I would have to make any changes to my diet based on this

reassuring point.

Anyway, that interesting little reference aside, there are plenty of

reasons to eat more milk fat. Most obviously, we need a lot of fat and

its a convenient source for a good chunk of the world's population. We

need fats to make hormones, cell membranes, etc, and absord fat-soluble

vitamins and many antioxidants. In Nourishing Traditions there is a

list of advantages to butterfat (milk fat). It would be best to simply

read the book, but here are few key points: Butter is about 12-15 percent

short and medium-chain fatty acids, which have all sorts of benefits.

(funny coincidence that there was just a separate thread about this.)

If it's raw, butter has the Wulzen Factor, which protects against arthritis.

If it's pasture-fed, butter has CLA (conjugated linoleic acid), which is a

hot topic these days because of the research showing its anticancer effects.

Butter also contains glycosphingolipids. Quoting the book: " This type of fat

protects

against gastrointestinal infections, especially in the very young and the

elderly. For this reason, children who drink skimmed milk have diarrhea

at rates three to five times greater than children who drink whole milk

[68]. " Butter also has trace minerals, including iodine. And of course

there are the good ol' fat-soluble vitamins, which are found in milk fat,

especially A and D. (The real forms that occur if

the cow eats a healthy diet, i.e. fresh grass, not the synthetic forms

added to commercial milk because of the defective diets of cows in

commerical farming operations and the subsequent processing.)

Vit D is not so easy to come by, and real milk is an excellent

source.

Another big reason to consume whole milk is that many traditional

populations enjoyed superior health with this as the basis of their diet,

like the Masai in Africa and the isolated valley populations in

Switzerland. Of course, milk is even more nutritious fermented in some

form (kefir, clabbered milk, piima, cheese, yogurt, etc), which is the

norm in traditional diets.

I'm sure this only scratches the surface of reasons to enjoy whole milk

(maybe with some extra cream mixed in too), but I hope it's helpful.

Mike

[Guest guest]

> As I always have had and continue to have a variety of fruits and vegetables

> in my diet I hope that will help with the calcium, too. The more colorful

> the veggie the better, I feel.

>

> Ta-ta. - Ruth

for me, I eat kale, turnip greens, and coriander leaves, because they're

all very high in calcium while also being very low in oxalates. other

colors are nice for the antioxidants, but green is best!

Mike

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Just a logic check - I looked up Enfamil AR, and it's about 50% sat fat. However, pediatricians are recommending switching to 1 % fat or skim milk at 1 year.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: Anton

Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2003 1:32 PM

Subject: Re: [ ] Re: 's letter and 's answer

"For calcium to be effectively incorporated into the skeletal structure,at least 50 percent of the dietary fats should be saturated [38]."Watkins, B A, et al, "Importance of Vitamin E in Bone Formation and inChrondrocyte Function" Purdue University, Lafayette, IN, American OilChemists Society Proceedings, 1996; Watkins, B A, and M F Seifert, "FoodLipids and Bone Health," Food Lipids and Health, R E Mc and D B Min,eds, p101, Marcel Dekker, Inc, New York, NY, 1996.I haven't checked into this interesting issue myself, mainly because it'sonly common sense to have at least 50 percent of fats be saturated, sincethat's a basic feature of the animal foods our species evolved on, so it'snot like I would have to make any changes to my diet based on thisreassuring point.

[Guest guest]

> Do you personally get 50% of your dietary fats from saturated sources?

> I only get about 20% of my fats from saturated sources (mainly from

> sources where saturated fats are minimal such as olive oil, canola

> oil, avocadoes) and some butter and meat. Would you suggest I get more

> saturated fats?

Absolutely yes, it doesn't sound like your getting enough saturated fats.

I would do some reading on the WAPF site about this.

> Btw, I'm curious whether canola oil is a good source of

> mono-unsaturated fats. I try to get about 10% of my daily calories

> from mono-unsaturated fats but olive oil and avocadoes can get quite

> tiresome. Anyone else have this quandary?

There's was a thread on canola recently on this list. I thought in a

previous post you said you are wise enough to avoid vegetable oils. I

would strongly advise against consuming canola oil, although others on

this list have no qualms about nutritionally worthless processed foods

like this. The best article I've come across on canola is

http://www.westonaprice.org/know_your_fats/conola.html

You can get plenty of MUFAs from other sources besides olive oil and

avocadoes without resorting to garbage like canola oil. For example,

almonds and eel are very high in MUFA. You also get a lot from beef,

pork, and other meats, in a nice balance with SFAs and loads of

micronutrients. Just eat a variety of normal nutrient-dense whole

foods and all the ratios and percentages will take care of themselves,

namely a fairly even split between SFA and MUFA, but leaning a bit more

towards SFA, and a tiny amount of PUFA. Keep in mind the best source of

olive oil is... olives.

> Another quick question (I assume it's okay to ask questions within the

> same thread or should I then start a new thread?): is V8 an acceptable

> CRON beverage? Are the " two servings of vegetables " worth the ~80

> calories or so?

Well, that's processed and pasteurized food and the vitamin content won't

be comparable at all to fresh veggies. If you are too busy one day to eat

fresh, quality food prepared at home, then it's better to just not eat at

all. Think of it as practical way of doing mini-fasts once in a while.

For nutrient-dense beverages, there's a whole chapter on this in

Nourishing Traditions.

Mike

[Guest guest]

> I asked about supplementation because I notice that many people trying

> to lengthen their lifespan opt to take a great deal of supplements

> daily. I'm not quite sure what to think about supplements, but I do

> feel a multivitamin is good insurance (and little bad can come of it).

Here's a great article about supplements.

http://westonaprice.org/vitamins/supplements.html

I don't know if we can assume little bad can come of supplements. After

all, some synthetic forms can interfere with the real thing, and you run the

risk of imbalances and poorly absorbed forms.

> I don't believe I can get the RDA of calcium simply from foods. I eat

> about 3 servings of dark greens a day (about 13 servings of vegetables

> a day) only. I'm trying to up that number, but I'm still getting used

> to this change in diet. My tongue's been saturated with unhealthy fats

> and sugars for so long it's been difficult adjusting, although it's

> getting easier. On top of that I aim for ¼ cup of nuts a day and 1-2

> servings of dairy (skim milk, yogurt, maybe some cheese). I'll try

> eating fish bones as you suggest, that would probably be a healthy

> idea (thanks for the suggestion). Are you sure this is enough? Could

> some extra calcium do any harm? I've never heard of supplementing with

> magnesium except after arduous exercise, should I stick to doing that?

Well, some big issues here. One is that the RDA of calcium is probably

higher than you really need. Another is that too much calcium can cause

an imbalance with other minerals. Minerals work as a team, and it's the

ratios of Ca, Mg, P, K, etc that are most important, not the absolute

quantities. It's widely believed that a little extra protein requires a

little extra calcium, so a diet with lots of meat should probably have a

little extra calcium. Even if you're aiming for the 1500 mg RDA, it's

still pretty easy to get it from food, but that's probably too much for a

normal healthy diet. Keep in mind the vast differences in absorption for

different foods and the fact that the RDA is set with the assumption that

people are eating a very poor diet. Other countires set their RDA's

differently, so always take these numbers with a grain of salt.

As far as the bones, while you can eat small fish bones directly, bone

broths (ala my other post) are another way to eat bones from any animal.

Magnesium is hard to find in food compared to calcium, and many sources

recommend a 2:1 Ca:Mg ratio. Issues involving mineral quantities often

boil down to changes in soil fertility across time. It is often noted

that the longest-lived populations had their soils drenched with minerals

from glacial runoffs. Soil fertility is one of the biggest determinants

of our health. Eat normal whole foods from good soil and unpolluted

waters.

> I find your mention of fat being the healthiest part of milk very

> interesting…I always believed it was quite the contrary. Isn't the fat

> in milk saturated? I've been concerned about being commercial milk,

> but unfortunately I have no alternative. Is powdered skim milk a good

> substitute? Is yogurt OK? I find milk useful in several recipes so it

> would be unfortunate to have to do away with drinking milk.

Your alternative to commercial milk is to find a local farm and get real

milk. It's not that hard. If you can't get real milk, then don't bother.

Milk is obviously completely unnecessary for humans beyond mother's milk,

so just eat other stuff like most of the human population has for many

millenia. Powdered skim milk is bad news. Anything powdered probably has

little nutritional value. Certain amino acids are damaged by the heat in

processing, and of course protein is only as good as the weakest amino

acid, so you're not going to get much out of any commercial powdered

protein source like powdered milk, soy powder, etc.

If you aren't aware of the nutritional value of fats, especially saturated

fats, please take some time to study the WAPF site and other sources. The

idea that saturated fats are unhealthy is an absurd myth largely fueled by

the cholesterol scandal. Unfortunately most people are still victims of

this debacle.

> I've read a lot about soy. The consensus I came too was that soy is

> healthy unless eaten excessively. I know it's had a lot of bad press

> (along with meat, fish, carrots, grains, milk and almost everything

> else it seems!) but overall I think it's still a worthwhile part of

> anyone's diet…even for men. Soy milk has quite a bit of protein,

> calcium and various other micronutrients and is fairly low in

> calories. It's useful in recipes also… so now once again I'm torn

> about what to do!

Soy is an even more recent addition to the human food supply than milk,

and needs to be fermented. Crucially, the soy (not to mention wheat,

etc) eaten nowadays is totally different than the soy eaten in the past

because it has been bred for agricultural convenience and has a totally

different composition. Soy is a food eaten in small quantities by a

small part of the human population in recent history (except for 20th

century America where deluded " health-conscious " people eat massive

quantities of improperly prepared soy). I think if you read the soy

articles on the WAPF site you'll keep it to a minimum. Like I mentioned

in another post, you get at least as much nutrition from other legumes

like lentils without the problems.

> Concerning nuts, the main reason I was asking is because I really

> enjoy them! I figure 2.5 tbsp of flaxseeds is almost enough omega 3

> for the day. But since I don't eat any unhealthy fats (or try not too)

> or meats or other junk I think not eating nuts would set me up for an

> omega-6 deficiency. I know it's not a problem for the average person

> who will get plenty of omega-6 from vegetable oils and such, but it

> might be a problem in my diet. It'd be nice to be able to get the best

> of both worlds. I definitely agree with you about fish though, I try

> to include a lot of fish (especially salmon) in my diet.

You really really run NO RISK of too little omega-6. Just do the math and

you'll see. Unless you're an Eskimo, you will want to minimize omega-6,

not try to add more to your diet. Don't overlook other sea meats like

octopus, oysters, shrimp, clams, etc.

2.5 tbsp of flaxseeds seems a little extreme. I'd opt for moderation in

most dietary matters, especially in poorly understood ones. Keep in mind that

flax is high in phytoestrogens.

> " By the way, for nuts, soaking/sprouting raw nuts is the way to go, to

> neutralize the antinutrients. Works great for almonds and peanuts (and

> other seeds and legumes). "

>

> What are anti-nutrients? I've heard this mentioned before but I don't

> know what it refers to.

Antinutrients counteract nutrients. For example, oxalic acid prevents

calcium from being available for humans--very common in vegetables. Phytic

acid blocks iron, zinc, etc--very common in grains and legumes; that's why

they need to be soaked or fermented. Antitrypsin blocks protein

digestion--very common in legumes; another reason they need to be soaked

or fermented. One of the biggest problem with soy is that it has

way more antinutrients than other legumes. Avidin blocks biotin in raw

egg whites. There are some who have argued that refined sugar is an

antinutrient for various reasons, but it's not a prototypical example.

These are some common examples of antinutrients. It's a

major issue. Note that antinutrients are very common in plant foods, and

rare (I've never heard of any) in animal flesh, which fits with

privileged status of animal flesh (fats, organs, etc) as the most

essential part of the human diet. It's not a question of

what nutrients a foodstuff contains, but how easily our bodies can get

them.

> Does anyone use guar gum or micronized cellulose? Is it useful in

> reducing hunger? Is it sold in stores and if not…where can I get some?

Just eat real food and stay away from this wacky stuff that has no

precedent in history. If you eat normal whole foods with plenty of fat

you'll have no problem with hunger. Keep in mind that many CRONers

are older folks with health problems who resort to these far-out tricks to

battle deeply embedded habits and compromised physiologies. And some of

them eat low-fat diets and processed foods, hardly what satisfies

the human body. Similar remarks apply to articial sweeteners. If it didn't

exist before the 20th century, you're gambling with your health based on very

limited data. Start out healthy and stay healthy.

Mike

[Guest guest]

> Forgive me but what is the link to the WAPF site? To be honest, I see

> little to no benefit from purposely consuming saturated fats. They're

> not essential (as opposed too polyunsaturated fats) and they don't

> contain the many benefits of monounsaturated fats. I believe it's very

> possible to live extremely healthily without ever touching any

> saturated fats. Then again, I may well be wrong...this is the

> conclusion I've come too for the time being. Then again, I'll admit to

> changing my mind fairly often on these matters.

westonaprice.org

saturated fats are essential, and have many more benefits than

monounsaturated fats. check out Enig's " Know Your Fats " , Nourishing

Traditions, etc. also, considered how many basic nutrient-dense foods

have saturated fats, it's pretty scary to even think of a diet without

them.

, would you mind elaborating on your general eating/health

ideas? I'm sure I'd learn quite a bit from your approach although I

have the feeling I might disagree in certain areas or lack the

motivation to follow such a plan. Would be interesting though.

-

well, i try to eat a balance of animal and plant foods, with small

quantities of a wide variety of things, not too much of any one thing. i

try to know the source and get food locally as much as possible, although

there are still a number of things i buy from asian grocery stores that

come from who knows where, like young coconuts, nuts, lychees, spices,

octopus, etc. i'm trying to shift to more seasonal eating, but this is a

little tricky. almost everything i eat is either raw, fermented,

sprouted, or cooked with a hydrophilic colloid (stock/soup), with the main

exception of greens, which i sometimes boil, but i go back and forth about that

issue.

i try to eat foods in the form that optimizes their nutritional value, hence the

above. that also means minimally processed foods. an important factor in

my food choices is pleasure; i really like to enjoy my food, and i try to eat

slowly and savor subtle flavors. i try to enjoy both very complex flavors,

like my soups, which are patterned a bit after complex curries, and very simple,

unadulterated flavors, the naked essence of a food without any combining, like a

piece of raw beef, or plain sprouts, or a cup of kefir. i also try to make my

beverages

nutrient-dense, almost never drinking plain water, but rather

herbal teas of my own design (usually with a sea veggie, spices, herbs),

whey, coconut water, and stock. the idea is to get more minerals and

other goodies. the basic structure of all my meals is

lacto-fermented veggies + salad + sprouts + soup + raw animal food,

except there is usually one meal per day (out of four) where i don't eat

soup for practical reasons. my salad is usually greens plus small amounts

of a few other things, often seasonal fruits like peppers and tomatoes. i

almost always add some coconut. that pretty much sums it up without too

much gory detail.

Mike

[Guest guest]

> You've made me re-consider the need for calcium supplementation. I'm

> not sure what I'll do, but I probably won't take it on most days. For

> now I'm keeping the multivitamin though. I'm curious; how much calcium

> would I get from eating the bones in canned salmon? Your explanation

> of the RDA was insightful, btw.

until you're confident about the nutrient-density and balance of your

diet, a small Ca/Mg supplement might still be a good idea. i've only

recently completely eliminated supplements, and in the very rare cases

where i'm eating at a restaurant and it's not an optimal meal i sometimes

pop a low-dosage Ca/Mg pill.

> Maybe you're right and I should add more meat to my diet. I've

> switched almost exclusively switched to fish/soy products, but maybe

> I'll reintroduce most meats. Are there any meats you generally

> recommend? I used to eat quite a bit of calf liver as I believe it was

> chock full of nutrients...

well, i'm not a heavy meat eater, but i eat a moderate amount of raw beef

(or venison), raw oysters, and raw octopus everyday. you can do just fine

with only sea meats like fish, but there are plenty of nice land meats

too. the type of meat is not so important; focus on the source and

quality, especially the diet of the animal. any liver is absolutely

definitely chock full of nutrients, and that's an understatement! it's

probably the ultimate ON food. i'm trying to move a bit towards organ

meats myself, but i worry about excess iron and retinol from liver, and

it's pretty tricky to get organs from pasture-fed animals; the demand

generally outstrips the supply. and then there are aesthetic issues...

> What math? The ratio of Omega 6: Omega 3 should be about 2:1 or 1:1.

> If I eat no nuts or vegetable oils I won't be getting any Omega 6, or

> barely any, and that's not healthy. There is such a thing as omega-6

> defficiency; it just isn't common due to the way most people eat.

look up the PUFA values of the foods you eat in the USDA database and add

them up. i certainly recommend some nuts and seed (part of my daily

sprout blend), but it's just that you don't large amounts at all.

> I can't resist asking you, : do you drink water. If so, how do

> you justify this in light of the fact that throughout evolution we

> most likely had very limited opportunities to drink clean water?

no, i almost never drink plain water. see my other post.

also, there's a lot of water in many foods. i imagine people in ancient

times drank plenty of water from rivers and things, clean or not.

(probably " dirty " , but in a good way, like with clays, etc).

> Well, I've made the transition from always using enormous amounts of

> white/brown sugar to switching to honey/maple and calorie free sugars.

> Over time I hope to be able to use only dried fruits as adequate

> sweetening.

while i haven't personally adopted it in my diet, UNHEATED honey is quite

a nutritious food, especially if it has pollen and such in it. " calorie

free sugars " are not sugars! i personally like sour and bitter foods

(more of an adaptation to eating healthy in the past few years than

any inherent proclivity), and there not much in the way of sweet flavors

in my diet, except for raw beef i guess, which can be like candy.

however, i can detect the faint sweetness of many foods blended with

other flavors. Rapadura is dehydrated cane sugar juice, still has some

nutrients from the cane, and is a good alternative to refined sugar, but

no difference in calories. stevia is also good, although i find myself

not even desiring any sweeteners in my food.

Mike

[Guest guest]

> Thanks for sharing your general approach. May I ask you how you eat

> raw meats? Do you just eat steak or calf liver the way it was when you

> bought it?

i just put in my mouth, usually slicing it into smaller pieces first.

sometimes i soak it in whey to keep it in the fridge for a few weeks

without having to freeze it. i haven't eaten raw liver yet, but i'm

curious. there's a LOT of discussion of the finer points of eating raw

liver on other email groups ( and live-food).

Mike

[Guest guest]

> " and it's not an optimal meal i sometimes

> pop a low-dosage Ca/Mg pill. "

>

> Something like Tums, or the like?

no, just " Ca/Mg " from a vitamin store. i'm not really sure what Tums is,

but i've heard the name. by the way, i avoid any supplemental vit D

because the synthetic stuff is not the optimal form and i get it from cod

liver oil, egg yolks, etc. it's been many months since i've popped any Ca/Mg,

and i don't even have any on hand.

>

> " while i haven't personally adopted it in my diet, UNHEATED honey is

> quite a nutritious food "

>

> How do I know if honey hasn't been heated?

you have to grill the beekeeper. just ask for details of their process,

showing friendly curiosity. i'm not too knowledgeable in this area, but a

good question is " what's the maximum temperature the honey reaches? " . the

answer should be less than 100 F degrees, nothing beyond ambient

temperatures.

> " although i find myself not even desiring any sweeteners in my food. "

>

> I'm curious, how long before your taste buds changed to this extent?

hmmm, i really got into sprouts a bit over a year ago, and i quickly

started loving the flavors. also experimenting with cooking a lot of

indian food for a few years before i got health-conscious probably had a

lot to do with it, so maybe it's been a gradual process over several

years. come to think of it, i think i've always liked sour stuff, so

maybe that's not related to any dietary changes. sorry these remarks are

probably not very helpful or interesting.

Mike