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> I wonder about a meatless diet and B-12, how bioavailable is the b-12 in

> seaweed for instance. I remember reading that he b-12 in vitamin pills

> is not very bioavailable and this is why b-12 shots are given.

The form of B-12 in seaweed and supplements that just list B-12 generically

without specifies form is cyanocobalamin. We can't absorb that. However, it is

possible to get supplements of methylcobalamin, which we can absorb. One

place to get it is http://www.iherb.com/vitaminb12.html, although I am sure

there are plenty of other good places from which to order.

I've also read that historically, we got a lot of our B-12 from the healthy

bacteria

in our intestines, but these days many of us lack a good intestinal flora.

One other issue is that some people just can't absorb B-12 though their

digestive tract. I believe they lack some necessary enzyme, and I don't know if

the form of B-12 matters, but this is particularly a problem with some older

people. That's why some people get shots. Of course, another reason many

people are given B-12 shots is as a placebo. The doctors know it won't hurt

them, and it can sometimes pacify a hypochondriac.

I actually am not sure which form of B-12 is in animal products, but it should

be

easy to find that out.

- Annie

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> I wonder about a meatless diet and B-12, how bioavailable is the b-12 in

> seaweed for instance. I remember reading that he b-12 in vitamin pills

> is not very bioavailable and this is why b-12 shots are given.

>

> Positive Dennis

I don't know a lot about this and I don't worry about it, because I get

quite a bit of B-12 from my daily fare, particularly beef, octopus,

oysters, raw milk kefir, and egg yolks. As far as I understand B-12 in seaweed

is not

the same substance as B-12 in animal foods and might create deficiencies

in true B-12, although I eat quite a bit of seaweed too (from Maine

Seaweed Co of course, http://www.alcasoft.com/seaweed/). There are

debates about whether it's possible to get adequate amounts of B-12 from

" non-animal " sources like soil bacteria, gut bacteria, etc, but I think

it's foolish to get into questions of tenths of a microgram and minimum

requirements when the traditional human diet included large amounts of

this vitamin and there is good reason to suspect we'd want much more than

just the bare minimum to prevent severe deficiency problems (recalling

similar arguments for other B-vitamins), such as the link between

homocysteine and B-12. I've read that vegetarians have higher

homocysteine levels in general, not a surprise. Again, keep in mind I'm

not speaking as an expert, just taking it as a common sense issue.

Mike

p.s. Here's an excerpt from an excellent article about vegetarianism that

is definitely germane to some of the recent posts. Whoa! I'm looking

through the rest of this article and I realize it's been a long time

since I've read this! This is an incredible article! Wow, I should've

posted this link a long time ago in response to vegan/vegetarian posts!

Highly recommended.

http://westonaprice.org/myths_truths/myths_truths_vegetarianism.html

MYTH #2: Vitamin B12 can be obtained from plant sources.

Of all the myths, this is perhaps the most dangerous. While lacto and

lacto-ovo vegetarians have sources of vitamin B12 in their diets (from

dairy products and eggs), vegans (total vegetarians) do not. Vegans who do

not supplement their diet with vitamin B12 will eventually get anemia (a

fatal condition) as well as severe nervous and digestive system damage;

most, if not all, vegans have impaired B12 metabolism and every study of

vegan groups has demonstrated low vitamin B12 concentrations in the

majority of individuals (11). Several studies have been done documenting

B12 deficiencies in vegan children, often with dire consequences (12).

Additionally, claims are made in vegan and vegetarian literature that B12

is present in certain algae, tempeh (a fermented soy product) and Brewer's

yeast. All of them are false as vitamin B12 is only found in animal foods.

Brewer's and nutritional yeasts do not contain B12 naturally; they are

always fortified from an outside source.

There is not real B12 in plant sources but B12 analogues--they are similar

to true B12, but not exactly the same and because of this they are not

bioavailable (13). It should be noted here that these B12 analogues can

impair absorption of true vitamin B12 in the body due to competitive

absorption, placing vegans and vegetarians who consume lots of soy, algae,

and yeast at a greater risk for a deficiency (14).

Some vegetarian authorities claim that B12 is produced by certain

fermenting bacteria in the lower intestines. This may be true, but it is

in a form unusable by the body. B12 requires intrinsic factor from the

stomach for proper absorption in the ileum. Since the bacterial product

does not have intrinsic factor bound to it, it cannot be absorbed (15).

It is true that Hindu vegans living in certain parts of India do not

suffer from vitamin B12 deficiency. This has led some to conclude that

plant foods do provide this vitamin. This conclusion, however, is

erroneous as many small insects, their feces, eggs, larvae and/or residue,

are left on the plant foods these people consume, due to non-use of

pesticides and inefficient cleaning methods. This is how these people

obtain their vitamin B12. This contention is borne out by the fact that

when vegan Indian Hindus later migrated to England, they came down with

megaloblastic anaemia within a few years. In England, the food supply is

cleaner, and insect residues are completely removed from plant foods (16).

The only reliable and absorbable sources of vitamin B12 are animal

products, especially organ meats and eggs (17). Though present in lesser

amounts than meat and eggs, dairy products do contain B12. Vegans,

therefore, should consider adding dairy products into their diets. If

dairy cannot be tolerated, eggs, preferably from free-run hens, are a

virtual necessity.

That vitamin B12 can only be obtained from animal foods is one of the

strongest arguments against veganism being a " natural " way of human

eating. Today, vegans can avoid anemia by taking supplemental vitamins or

fortified foods. If those same people had lived just a few decades ago,

when these products were unavailable, they would have died.

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Hi Annie,

We do have bacteria in our intestines that make B-12, but we don't absorb THAT product. It's past the point where that absorption takes place. Look up intrinsic factor. There is B-12 on some foods that cannot be washed off, and are absorbed into the plant according to one source. I like to add a pill.

As I understand it, most vitamin mfgrs are making B-12 with beets in a process that avoids the animal controversy.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: annie_fox

Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2003 1:19 PM

Subject: [ ] Re: bioavailable B-12

> I wonder about a meatless diet and B-12, how bioavailable is the b-12 in > seaweed for instance. I remember reading that he b-12 in vitamin pills > is not very bioavailable and this is why b-12 shots are given.I've also read that historically, we got a lot of our B-12 from the healthy bacteria in our intestines, but these days many of us lack a good intestinal flora. One other issue is that some people just can't absorb B-12 though their digestive tract. I believe they lack some necessary enzyme, and I don't know if the form of B-12 matters, but this is particularly a problem with some older people. That's why some people get shots. Of course, another reason many people are given B-12 shots is as a placebo. The doctors know it won't hurt them, and it can sometimes pacify a hypochondriac. I actually am not sure which form of B-12 is in animal products, but it should be easy to find that out.- Annie

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Only a small amount will be absorbed based on the intrinsic factor available. People who are short B12 intake usually have a lack of intrinsic factor. Milk and cheese contain B12. RDA is 2 micrograms. I think I could absorb that much gardening with bare hands. But I think Calcium and maintaining a lactose tolerance (IMO), are more important reasons for me to eat lacto veg.

Regards.

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Hi Dennis,

Are you attaching something to each of your posts deliberately or do you have a virus doing it? I never open attachments so I'm curious.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: Dennis De Jarnette

Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2003 11:44 AM

Subject: [ ] bioavailable B-12

I wonder about a meatless diet and B-12, how bioavailable is the b-12 in seaweed for instance. I remember reading that he b-12 in vitamin pills is not very bioavailable and this is why b-12 shots are given. Positive Dennis

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I do not have the intrisic factor. I was told to get regular shots.

However, I used the sublingual pellets for B-12, & subsequent blood

tests showed that my B-12 values skyrocketed. Therefore, I am presuming

that the shots would not provide a benefit that I do not get from the

sublingual pellet.

> essage -----

> From: Dennis De Jarnette <mailto:positivedennis@...>

>

> <mailto: >

> Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2003 11:44 AM

> Subject: [ ] bioavailable B-12

>

> I wonder about a meatless diet and B-12, how bioavailable is the

> b-12 in seaweed for instance. I remember reading that he b-12 in

> vitamin pills is not very bioavailable and this is why b-12 shots

> are given.

>

> Positive Dennis

>

>

>

>

>

<http://rd./M=247865.3269369.4566997.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705060814:H\

M/A=1482387/R=0/*http://ads.x10.com/?bHlhaG9vaG0xLmRhd=1052599312%3eM=247865.326\

9369.4566997.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705060814:HM/A=1482387/R=1=1052599312%3eM=24\

7865.3269369.4566997.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705060814:HM/A=1482387/R=2>

>

>

>

>

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Did you notice any change in how you felt?

on 5/10/2003 5:09 PM, April at apricot855@... wrote:

> I do not have the intrisic factor. I was told to get regular shots.

> However, I used the sublingual pellets for B-12, & subsequent blood

> tests showed that my B-12 values skyrocketed. Therefore, I am presuming

> that the shots would not provide a benefit that I do not get from the

> sublingual pellet.

>

>> essage -----

>> From: Dennis De Jarnette <mailto:positivedennis@...>

>>

>> <mailto: >

>> Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2003 11:44 AM

>> Subject: [ ] bioavailable B-12

>>

>> I wonder about a meatless diet and B-12, how bioavailable is the

>> b-12 in seaweed for instance. I remember reading that he b-12 in

>> vitamin pills is not very bioavailable and this is why b-12 shots

>> are given.

>>

>> Positive Dennis

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> <http://rd./M=247865.3269369.4566997.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=170506081

>> 4:HM/A=1482387/R=0/*http://ads.x10.com/?bHlhaG9vaG0xLmRhd=1052599312%3eM=2478

>> 65.3269369.4566997.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705060814:HM/A=1482387/R=1=10525993

>> 12%3eM=247865.3269369.4566997.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705060814:HM/A=1482387/R

>> =2>

>>

>>

>>

>>

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No I am sending no attachments, I doubt it is a virus, as there are few mac

specific viruses. probably a formatting thing. But I will check later for

a virus. I need new software mine is too old. So do not open any attachments

I might send unless you have good protection and are brave, WHen I get the

post I see no attachments, I also will ask the other forum I am on on this.

Positive Dennis

jwwright wrote:

Hi Dennis,

Are you attaching something to

each of your posts deliberately or do you have a virus doing it? I never

open attachments so I'm curious.

Regards.

-----

Original Message -----

From:

Dennis De Jarnette

To:

Sent:

Saturday, May 10, 2003 11:44 AM

Subject:

[ ] bioavailable B-12

I wonder about a meatless diet and B-12, how bioavailable is the b-12

in seaweed for instance. I remember reading that he b-12 in vitamin pills

is not very bioavailable and this is why b-12 shots are given.

Positive Dennis

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The B-12 in sea weed is a B-12 analogue and may actually reduce your body's ability to use the real thing. However, the B-12 -n nutritional yeast, and vitamin pills works fine.

Ed

----- Original Message -----

From: Dennis De Jarnette

Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2003 9:44 AM

Subject: [ ] bioavailable B-12

I wonder about a meatless diet and B-12, how bioavailable is the b-12 in seaweed for instance. I remember reading that he b-12 in vitamin pills is not very bioavailable and this is why b-12 shots are given. Positive Dennis Anton wrote:

> Hi ,> You'll never find an article that says meat does anything. I set out to prove a vegetarian diet was bad and read the existing article numbering 3000 or so. I'm not sure a person who switches to a vegan diet will get any benefits in mortality. All I know is that I felt a lot better, my muscle soreness cleared up. I lost 55#, my BP went down enough to dump the betablocker which was a real drag. That allowed me to exercise again.##### All theoretical questions aside, that's fantastic news! Of course, manipulating many variables at once in one's diet and/or lifestyle provides no insight or evidence about one of the variables, i.e. meat or no meat. It sounds to me like you increased the quality and mineral-density of your diet, which could be done whether or not a small category of foods like meat or eggs was included or excluded. I was doing essentially a CR diet at 1800kcals making sure I got all the RDA's using a spreadsheet made from the USDA database. I read all the Sears books, walfords books, Ornish and DASH, plus the Mediterranean ref's and Okinawan ref's. I also subscribe to mdconsult.com to get access to medical textbooks. I think I don't NEED meat, or egg yolks, although I'm not sure there isn't some chemical in there that promotes something - we don't know a lot about the human body. #### There's certainly no individual food substance that any person NEEDS, but any member of our species does NEED at least some animal foods because our bodies evolved to rely on certain substances only available from these sources. There are dozens and dozens choices of animal foods that could work interchangeably depending on availability, individual physiology, etc. Of course, if a person happens to live in the current era and has access to nutritional supplements, it is entirely possible to thrive on a vegan diet. Fundamentally, it seems our bodies are quite flexible and can do very well on a wide range of diets, and it's probably difficult to distinguish between optimal and "good enough" in real-time. I always felt great and never had any health problems eating more or less SAD until I "got religion" about health and started eating nutrient-dense food from quality sources, and now I still feel great and don't see any difference. I would agree that we don't know a lot about the human body, and that's why I tend to rely on the accumulated evidence of history, which shows in unequivocable terms that humans have always eaten a wide variety of animal foods, especially organs, fat, bones, eggs, etc. If these foods have resulted in robustly healthy thriving populations for many millenia, then if there's any question about how to interpret the latest contrived study on the effects of isolated substances on lab animals, I'll place my bets with the evidence of history. > But essential hypertension is child's play compared to cancer, diabetes, kidney disease so I right now I'm leaning more to looking at cancer prevents. Meat fat seems to be associated with prostate cancer. #### If that were so, then prostate cancer would be epidemic during all stages of human history. I'm sure there's a lot more to the story than the effect of just one food. "seems to be associated" is not the kind of reasoning I would use to make major dietary decisions that contradict massive bodies of empirical evidence like the absence of health problem x in previous populations that heavily consumed food y. Additionally, "meat fat" is a heterogenous set of foods, varying in fatty acid composition, almost completely overlapping with the fatty acid composition of plant fats, varying in non-fatty acid components, including nutrients and toxins, depending on type of animal, part of animal, diet of animal, environment of animal, etc. #### My approach to diet is methodologically similar to your's, although I probably have done far less reading and research, but there is a major limitation to the "USDA data number-crunching" and "research on food x" methodology, in that it deflects attention away from issues like "quality of source", "method of preparation", and "evidence from traditional diets". The latter issues have come to my attention through the Weston A Price Foundation and "Nourishing Traditions", and augment the former considerations, which came to my attention from reading Walford 2001. #### Thanks for your thoughtful and interesting posts, and congratulations of your personal success. #### Mike

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> The B-12 in sea weed is a B-12 analogue and may actually reduce your

body's ability to use the real thing. However, the B-12 -n nutritional yeast,

and vitamin pills works fine.

I'd add one caution to the B-12 in nutritional yeast. If you get one of the

many

brands that are fortified (and the recommendations I've seen here are

fortified), then the added B-12 is probably not the usuable form and may well

block the usuable B-12 from the yeast, if the forms do compete.

- Annie

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This message had an attachment also. When I forward it, it gets lost - not surprising. Perhaps it's just the incompatibility of the Mac with the inet. I have a Mac also, but I use it for tech stuff and I don't let it anywhere near the inet. This HP I have formatted more times than I can remember. I have it down to a science: save the data on disk, keep parts of the old systems/apps, and several other things I learned in the 2000 election. Oddly(?), when I do certain upgrades, the trash increases.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: Dennis De Jarnette

Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2003 5:40 PM

Subject: Re: [ ] bioavailable B-12

No I am sending no attachments, I doubt it is a virus, as there are few mac specific viruses. probably a formatting thing. But I will check later for a virus. I need new software mine is too old. So do not open any attachments I might send unless you have good protection and are brave, WHen I get the post I see no attachments, I also will ask the other forum I am on on this. Positive Dennis

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