Re: Is the Mediterranean all it is cut out to be?

[Guest guest]

I think the Spain Mediterranean (seacoast), Greece Mediterranean, Italian Mediterranean, are diff diets. I recall one Greek community that was predominantly vegetarian (their staple was lentils). There are way too many factors diff in us and other countries. We drive across the street, we don't eat the same spices, oils; we don't have the same medical care, we maybe have more pollution, not to mention ancestry diffs. Our stats are the average of a multiracial group. I'm twice as big as the 86 yo farmer they described in one article. Perhaps my organ size versus total weight is less? When I get to thinking about diffs, it's mind boggling.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: Alan Pater

'CR List'

Cc: CR Support Group (E-mail)

Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2003 5:36 PM

Subject: [ ] Is the Mediterranean all it is cut out to be?

Hi All, What do you make of the table at the bottom of:http://www.okinawaprogram.com/ ?It seems to me that the Mediterranean diet was poor for overall and especially strokes.And how does the below paper add to this idea?Also, it seemed to me that heart disease and cancer are very different in their patterns,irrespective of overall mortality and longevity. Sweden has relatively high heart disease deaths. I suppose that it could be said that things like infant mortality is a big factor, but shouldit not be in the case of Hong Kong too?Cheers, Al.Lipids 1997 Jul;32(7):745-51Unusual effects of some vegetable oils on the survival time of stroke-pronespontaneously hypertensive rats.Huang MZ, Watanabe S, Kobayashi T, Nagatsu A, Sakakibara J, Okuyama H.Preliminary experiments have shown that a diet containing 10% rapeseed oil (low-erucic acid)markedly shortens the survival time of stroke-prone spontaneously hypertensive (SHRSP) ratsunder 1% NaCl loading as compared with diets containing perilla oil or soybean oil. High-oleatesafflower oil and high-oleate sunflower oil were found to have survival time-shortening activitiescomparable to that of rapeseed oil; olive oil had slightly less activity. A mixture was made ofsoybean oil, perilla oil, and triolein partially purified from high-oleate sunflower oil to adjust thefatty acid composition to that of rapeseed oil. The survival time of this triolein/mixed oil groupwas between those of the rapeseed oil and soybean oil groups. When 1% NaCl was replacedwith tap water, the survival time was prolonged by approximately 80%. Under these conditions,the rapeseed oil and evening primrose oil shortened the survival time by approximately 40% ascompared with n-3 fatty acid-rich perilla and fish oil; lard, soybean oil, and safflower oil withrelatively high n-6/n-3 ratios shortened the survival time by roughly 10%. The observed unusualsurvival time-shortening activities of some vegetable oils (rapeseed, high-oleate safflower,high-oleate sunflower, olive, and evening primrose oil) may not be due to their unique fatty acidcompositions, but these results suggest that these vegetable oils contain factor(s) which aredetrimental to SHRSP rats.PMID: 9252963 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[Guest guest]

Note that the Okinawan diet (healthy elders) averages about 23% fat,

perhaps less in some areas (judging from a remark made by Weil on

television the other night). Of that, they consume an average of 3 ounces

(according to the book) of full fat firm tofu per day, and of couse with it

a significant dose of soy oil as part of the tofu. Then the also eat pork,

etc.

Perhaps that explains why their stroke data seems to be very favorable,

although not the best.

ed s

----- Original Message -----

From: " Alan Pater " <apater@...>

" 'CR List' " <crsociety@...>

Cc: " CR Support Group (E-mail) " <CRSupportgroup >

Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2003 3:36 PM

Subject: [ ] Is the Mediterranean all it is cut out to be?

> Hi All, What do you make of the table at the bottom of:

> http://www.okinawaprogram.com/ ?

>

> It seems to me that the Mediterranean diet was poor for overall and

especially strokes.

>

> And how does the below paper add to this idea?

>

> Also, it seemed to me that heart disease and cancer are very different in

their patterns,

> irrespective of overall mortality and longevity. Sweden has relatively

high heart

> disease deaths.

>

> I suppose that it could be said that things like infant mortality is a big

factor, but should

> it not be in the case of Hong Kong too?

>

> Cheers, Al.

>

>

> Lipids 1997 Jul;32(7):745-51

> Unusual effects of some vegetable oils on the survival time of

stroke-prone

> spontaneously hypertensive rats.

> Huang MZ, Watanabe S, Kobayashi T, Nagatsu A, Sakakibara J, Okuyama H.

>

> Preliminary experiments have shown that a diet containing 10% rapeseed oil

(low-erucic acid)

> markedly shortens the survival time of stroke-prone spontaneously

hypertensive (SHRSP) rats

> under 1% NaCl loading as compared with diets containing perilla oil or

soybean oil. High-oleate

> safflower oil and high-oleate sunflower oil were found to have survival

time-shortening activities

> comparable to that of rapeseed oil; olive oil had slightly less activity.

A mixture was made of

> soybean oil, perilla oil, and triolein partially purified from high-oleate

sunflower oil to adjust the

> fatty acid composition to that of rapeseed oil. The survival time of this

triolein/mixed oil group

> was between those of the rapeseed oil and soybean oil groups. When 1% NaCl

was replaced

> with tap water, the survival time was prolonged by approximately 80%.

Under these conditions,

> the rapeseed oil and evening primrose oil shortened the survival time by

approximately 40% as

> compared with n-3 fatty acid-rich perilla and fish oil; lard, soybean oil,

and safflower oil with

> relatively high n-6/n-3 ratios shortened the survival time by roughly 10%.

The observed unusual

> survival time-shortening activities of some vegetable oils (rapeseed,

high-oleate safflower,

> high-oleate sunflower, olive, and evening primrose oil) may not be due to

their unique fatty acid

> compositions, but these results suggest that these vegetable oils contain

factor(s) which are

> detrimental to SHRSP rats.

>

> PMID: 9252963 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

The diet that first captured the attention of Ancel and Margaret Keys in the early epedemiological studies of diet and disease was the Cretan diet, not really the mediterranean diet as such (too broad). The Cretan diet was high in olive oil, dried beans, herbs, wild vegetables as well as cultivated vegetables, with some small amounts of meat, milk, and for those right on the coast, fish.

Simopoulos would point out that these animals were all eating grass and browse, not grains, and that wild vegetables tend to be high in Omega # fatty acids. The diet was not high in canola oil...canola oil didn't even exist, as such. The cretans were physically active, lived in what we would consider poverty, and had a little nip of alcohol now and then.

I still have a copy of the first popular book on this subject by the Keys'..."Eat Well and Stay Well"....

You'd think I'd be smart enough to follow it, but...no, a precursor of Atkins came along about the same time. The drinking man's diet...or, Eat Fat and Grow Slim,. or maybe it was Calories Don't Count, or perhaps it was "The Fat of the Land" ...all of which I read in the 50's and 60's. My son is currently trying Atkin's latest offering... The sins of the fathers?

Ed

----- Original Message -----

From: jwwright

Sent: Friday, May 09, 2003 1:05 AM

Subject: Re: [ ] Is the Mediterranean all it is cut out to be?

I think the Spain Mediterranean (seacoast), Greece Mediterranean, Italian Mediterranean, are diff diets. I recall one Greek community that was predominantly vegetarian (their staple was lentils). There are way too many factors diff in us and other countries. We drive across the street, we don't eat the same spices, oils; we don't have the same medical care, we maybe have more pollution, not to mention ancestry diffs. Our stats are the average of a multiracial group. I'm twice as big as the 86 yo farmer they described in one article. Perhaps my organ size versus total weight is less? When I get to thinking about diffs, it's mind boggling.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: Alan Pater

'CR List'

Cc: CR Support Group (E-mail)

Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2003 5:36 PM

Subject: [ ] Is the Mediterranean all it is cut out to be?

Hi All, What do you make of the table at the bottom of:http://www.okinawaprogram.com/ ?It seems to me that the Mediterranean diet was poor for overall and especially strokes.And how does the below paper add to this idea?Also, it seemed to me that heart disease and cancer are very different in their patterns,irrespective of overall mortality and longevity. Sweden has relatively high heart disease deaths. I suppose that it could be said that things like infant mortality is a big factor, but shouldit not be in the case of Hong Kong too?Cheers, Al.Lipids 1997 Jul;32(7):745-51Unusual effects of some vegetable oils on the survival time of stroke-pronespontaneously hypertensive rats.Huang MZ, Watanabe S, Kobayashi T, Nagatsu A, Sakakibara J, Okuyama H.Preliminary experiments have shown that a diet containing 10% rapeseed oil (low-erucic acid)markedly shortens the survival time of stroke-prone spontaneously hypertensive (SHRSP) ratsunder 1% NaCl loading as compared with diets containing perilla oil or soybean oil. High-oleatesafflower oil and high-oleate sunflower oil were found to have survival time-shortening activitiescomparable to that of rapeseed oil; olive oil had slightly less activity. A mixture was made ofsoybean oil, perilla oil, and triolein partially purified from high-oleate sunflower oil to adjust thefatty acid composition to that of rapeseed oil. The survival time of this triolein/mixed oil groupwas between those of the rapeseed oil and soybean oil groups. When 1% NaCl was replacedwith tap water, the survival time was prolonged by approximately 80%. Under these conditions,the rapeseed oil and evening primrose oil shortened the survival time by approximately 40% ascompared with n-3 fatty acid-rich perilla and fish oil; lard, soybean oil, and safflower oil withrelatively high n-6/n-3 ratios shortened the survival time by roughly 10%. The observed unusualsurvival time-shortening activities of some vegetable oils (rapeseed, high-oleate safflower,high-oleate sunflower, olive, and evening primrose oil) may not be due to their unique fatty acidcompositions, but these results suggest that these vegetable oils contain factor(s) which aredetrimental to SHRSP rats.PMID: 9252963 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[Guest guest]

Thanks for this note, Ed. I've been avoiding looking at the " Mediterranean "

thread since what we might call Greek or Hellenic foods here would in no way

really match eating patterns of thirty years ago, such as in a place like

Crete. Dietary restrictions were strong and meat would have been largely

restricted to feast days, leaving vegetarianism quite common for the average

day. If you add in a great deal of physical activity, a strong social

network, and limited access to anything even resembling junk food, I think

much of the miracle of the diet comes forth...

Any oil consumed in Crete would probably be olive oil, also eaten as fruit,

used to make soap, and burned to light the home, with the wood from the tree

following equally broad routes of use. A holistic food if there ever was

one.

Best,

-----Original Message-----

From: Ed Sullivan [mailto:Sully@...]

Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 1:14 AM

Subject: Re: [ ] Is the Mediterranean all it is cut out to be?

The diet that first captured the attention of Ancel and Margaret Keys in the

early epedemiological studies of diet and disease was the Cretan diet, not

really the mediterranean diet as such (too broad). The Cretan diet was high

in olive oil, dried beans, herbs, wild vegetables as well as cultivated

vegetables, with some small amounts of meat, milk, and for those right on

the coast, fish.

Simopoulos would point out that these animals were all eating grass and

browse, not grains, and that wild vegetables tend to be high in Omega #

fatty acids. The diet was not high in canola oil...canola oil didn't even

exist, as such. The cretans were physically active, lived in what we would

consider poverty, and had a little nip of alcohol now and then.

I still have a copy of the first popular book on this subject by the

Keys'... " Eat Well and Stay Well " ....

You'd think I'd be smart enough to follow it, but...no, a precursor of

Atkins came along about the same time. The drinking man's diet...or, Eat

Fat and Grow Slim,. or maybe it was Calories Don't Count, or perhaps it

was " The Fat of the Land " ...all of which I read in the 50's and 60's. My

son is currently trying Atkin's latest offering... The sins of the

fathers?

Ed

----- Original Message -----

From: jwwright

Sent: Friday, May 09, 2003 1:05 AM

Subject: Re: [ ] Is the Mediterranean all it is cut out to be?

I think the Spain Mediterranean (seacoast), Greece Mediterranean, Italian

Mediterranean, are diff diets. I recall one Greek community that was

predominantly vegetarian (their staple was lentils). There are way too many

factors diff in us and other countries. We drive across the street, we don't

eat the same spices, oils; we don't have the same medical care, we maybe

have more pollution, not to mention ancestry diffs. Our stats are the

average of a multiracial group. I'm twice as big as the 86 yo farmer they

described in one article. Perhaps my organ size versus total weight is less?

When I get to thinking about diffs, it's mind boggling.

Regards.

----- Original Message -----

From: Alan Pater

'CR List'

Cc: CR Support Group (E-mail)

Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2003 5:36 PM

Subject: [ ] Is the Mediterranean all it is cut out to be?

Hi All, What do you make of the table at the bottom of:

http://www.okinawaprogram.com/ ?

It seems to me that the Mediterranean diet was poor for overall and

especially strokes.

And how does the below paper add to this idea?

Also, it seemed to me that heart disease and cancer are very different in

their patterns,

irrespective of overall mortality and longevity. Sweden has relatively high

heart

disease deaths.

I suppose that it could be said that things like infant mortality is a big

factor, but should

it not be in the case of Hong Kong too?

Cheers, Al.

Lipids 1997 Jul;32(7):745-51

Unusual effects of some vegetable oils on the survival time of stroke-prone

spontaneously hypertensive rats.

Huang MZ, Watanabe S, Kobayashi T, Nagatsu A, Sakakibara J, Okuyama H.

Preliminary experiments have shown that a diet containing 10% rapeseed oil

(low-erucic acid)

markedly shortens the survival time of stroke-prone spontaneously

hypertensive (SHRSP) rats

under 1% NaCl loading as compared with diets containing perilla oil or

soybean oil. High-oleate

safflower oil and high-oleate sunflower oil were found to have survival

time-shortening activities

comparable to that of rapeseed oil; olive oil had slightly less activity. A

mixture was made of

soybean oil, perilla oil, and triolein partially purified from high-oleate

sunflower oil to adjust the

fatty acid composition to that of rapeseed oil. The survival time of this

triolein/mixed oil group

was between those of the rapeseed oil and soybean oil groups. When 1% NaCl

was replaced

with tap water, the survival time was prolonged by approximately 80%. Under

these conditions,

the rapeseed oil and evening primrose oil shortened the survival time by

approximately 40% as

compared with n-3 fatty acid-rich perilla and fish oil; lard, soybean oil,

and safflower oil with

relatively high n-6/n-3 ratios shortened the survival time by roughly 10%.

The observed unusual

survival time-shortening activities of some vegetable oils (rapeseed,

high-oleate safflower,

high-oleate sunflower, olive, and evening primrose oil) may not be due to

their unique fatty acid

compositions, but these results suggest that these vegetable oils contain

factor(s) which are

detrimental to SHRSP rats.

PMID: 9252963 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[Guest guest]

,

yes, the cretan farmers were known for throwing down a jigger of olive oil

for breakfast....

This was the high fat diet...actually high in olive oil, and no other fat

source.

Ed

----- Original Message -----

From: " Gifford " <gifford@...>

< >

Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 8:42 AM

Subject: RE: [ ] Is the Mediterranean all it is cut out to be?

> Thanks for this note, Ed. I've been avoiding looking at the

" Mediterranean "

> thread since what we might call Greek or Hellenic foods here would in no

way

> really match eating patterns of thirty years ago, such as in a place like

> Crete. Dietary restrictions were strong and meat would have been largely

> restricted to feast days, leaving vegetarianism quite common for the

average

> day. If you add in a great deal of physical activity, a strong social

> network, and limited access to anything even resembling junk food, I think

> much of the miracle of the diet comes forth...

>

> Any oil consumed in Crete would probably be olive oil, also eaten as

fruit,

> used to make soap, and burned to light the home, with the wood from the

tree

> following equally broad routes of use. A holistic food if there ever was

> one.

>

> Best,

>

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: Ed Sullivan [mailto:Sully@...]

> Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 1:14 AM

>

> Subject: Re: [ ] Is the Mediterranean all it is cut out to

be?

>

>

> The diet that first captured the attention of Ancel and Margaret Keys in

the

> early epedemiological studies of diet and disease was the Cretan diet,

not

> really the mediterranean diet as such (too broad). The Cretan diet was

high

> in olive oil, dried beans, herbs, wild vegetables as well as cultivated

> vegetables, with some small amounts of meat, milk, and for those right

on

> the coast, fish.

> Simopoulos would point out that these animals were all eating grass and

> browse, not grains, and that wild vegetables tend to be high in Omega #

> fatty acids. The diet was not high in canola oil...canola oil didn't even

> exist, as such. The cretans were physically active, lived in what we

would

> consider poverty, and had a little nip of alcohol now and then.

>

> I still have a copy of the first popular book on this subject by the

> Keys'... " Eat Well and Stay Well " ....

> You'd think I'd be smart enough to follow it, but...no, a precursor of

> Atkins came along about the same time. The drinking man's diet...or, Eat

> Fat and Grow Slim,. or maybe it was Calories Don't Count, or perhaps it

> was " The Fat of the Land " ...all of which I read in the 50's and 60's.

My

> son is currently trying Atkin's latest offering... The sins of the

> fathers?

>

> Ed

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: jwwright

>

> Sent: Friday, May 09, 2003 1:05 AM

> Subject: Re: [ ] Is the Mediterranean all it is cut out to

be?

>

>

> I think the Spain Mediterranean (seacoast), Greece Mediterranean, Italian

> Mediterranean, are diff diets. I recall one Greek community that was

> predominantly vegetarian (their staple was lentils). There are way too

many

> factors diff in us and other countries. We drive across the street, we

don't

> eat the same spices, oils; we don't have the same medical care, we maybe

> have more pollution, not to mention ancestry diffs. Our stats are the

> average of a multiracial group. I'm twice as big as the 86 yo farmer they

> described in one article. Perhaps my organ size versus total weight is

less?

> When I get to thinking about diffs, it's mind boggling.

>

> Regards.

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: Alan Pater

> 'CR List'

> Cc: CR Support Group (E-mail)

> Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2003 5:36 PM

> Subject: [ ] Is the Mediterranean all it is cut out to be?

>

>

> Hi All, What do you make of the table at the bottom of:

> http://www.okinawaprogram.com/ ?

>

> It seems to me that the Mediterranean diet was poor for overall and

> especially strokes.

>

> And how does the below paper add to this idea?

>

> Also, it seemed to me that heart disease and cancer are very different in

> their patterns,

> irrespective of overall mortality and longevity. Sweden has relatively

high

> heart

> disease deaths.

>

> I suppose that it could be said that things like infant mortality is a big

> factor, but should

> it not be in the case of Hong Kong too?

>

> Cheers, Al.

>

>

> Lipids 1997 Jul;32(7):745-51

> Unusual effects of some vegetable oils on the survival time of

stroke-prone

> spontaneously hypertensive rats.

> Huang MZ, Watanabe S, Kobayashi T, Nagatsu A, Sakakibara J, Okuyama H.

>

> Preliminary experiments have shown that a diet containing 10% rapeseed oil

> (low-erucic acid)

> markedly shortens the survival time of stroke-prone spontaneously

> hypertensive (SHRSP) rats

> under 1% NaCl loading as compared with diets containing perilla oil or

> soybean oil. High-oleate

> safflower oil and high-oleate sunflower oil were found to have survival

> time-shortening activities

> comparable to that of rapeseed oil; olive oil had slightly less activity.

A

> mixture was made of

> soybean oil, perilla oil, and triolein partially purified from high-oleate

> sunflower oil to adjust the

> fatty acid composition to that of rapeseed oil. The survival time of this

> triolein/mixed oil group

> was between those of the rapeseed oil and soybean oil groups. When 1% NaCl

> was replaced

> with tap water, the survival time was prolonged by approximately 80%.

Under

> these conditions,

> the rapeseed oil and evening primrose oil shortened the survival time by

> approximately 40% as

> compared with n-3 fatty acid-rich perilla and fish oil; lard, soybean oil,

> and safflower oil with

> relatively high n-6/n-3 ratios shortened the survival time by roughly 10%.

> The observed unusual

> survival time-shortening activities of some vegetable oils (rapeseed,

> high-oleate safflower,

> high-oleate sunflower, olive, and evening primrose oil) may not be due to

> their unique fatty acid

> compositions, but these results suggest that these vegetable oils contain

> factor(s) which are

> detrimental to SHRSP rats.

>

> PMID: 9252963 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

>

>

>